You have to wake up early to get in ahead of HW in the line to throw garbage at Yost or Turnbow! And I don't mean that as an insult at all; the fact that you posted this at 8 AM is rather charming.

I'm heading down to Wrigley for the game today. Any requests from Sam's?

Looking forward to HW's comments on this one. 8-D

bk:

I am not throwing "garbage" at Turnbow. I have tremendous sympathy for the young man. If he had been handled properly it wouldn't have reached this point.

Look, folks need to understand that a manager is more then someone who pats guys on the *ss and tells them they are great. He sometimes has to step in and explain to someone that for the good of the team AND the individual the player has to take a break. Step aside. Go find himself.

Under Yost MULTIPLE players have become local figures of scorn and derision beginning with Wes Helms and now Turnbow. Are Milwaukee fans unduly harsh? Not at all. It's just after having repeated exposure to a player's VERY public failures the FANS figured out what the manager could not. That the player needed to be reassigned. So the onlookers expressed their opinions until the player's situation became untenable for all concerned.

Geoff Jenkins is likely going to be traded for the sole reason that management doesn't think the public will tolerate having him on the team in a regular or semi-regular role in 2007. Nothing could be more incorrect. Milwaukee fans just wanted and WANT Jenkins to contribute in a positive fashion. If handled PROPERLY in 2007 Geoff will likely be a plus performer.

I know there are Brewer fans who insist that Yost/Melvin just don't have the horses. And I find that to be complete and utter horsesh*t.

Because if Yost ever figured out that he has the authority to step in and stop a career meltdown before it reaches "China Syndrome" levels the output from several players this season would have been acceptable.

And for the record I am up by 5 a.m. every day. After taking care of my livestock and completing my morning ride I come in to make my wife breakfast followed by a quick Internet review.

When you are old you don't sleep much. It's somewhat annoying in that I never slept a whole lot when I was 25 or 45. Now that I am 73 I am up all the d*mn time. I know that reads as a rather silly complaint but there is only so many times I can clean my saddles or evaluate my portfolio.

Stupidest Son of B*tch this side of the Mississippi wearing a baseball uniform. And he’s managing my team.

What about Gardenhire? Or do the Twins play on the other side of the Mississippi?

I am not throwing "garbage" at Turnbow.

Rotten vegetables? No, I know it's not schadenfreude, and I feel bad for Mongo too. I was just trying to present a colorful image.

Are Milwaukee fans unduly harsh?

Haha.

bk:

What is your assessment of Yost?

What about Gardenhire? Or do the Twins play on the other side of the Mississippi?

They do, but only by about a half mile. I'm glad you said that, because it gives me a chance to mention how sick it made me to hear all three Twins announcers, including The Rogue, carrying on yesterday about how Bartlett had "fixed" his game after being left in AAA to begin the season and was now the ballplayer that Gardybear knew he could be. Right. OR: Gardenhire finally realized his mistake when Bartlett tore up AAA for the third consecutive year while Juan Castro did his best impression of Ray Oyler.

Want to finish this project plan for me?

For all the vaudvillian crap Ozzie G pulls in front of the cameras, he really does a good job of getting guys in and out of situations so they can excel or fail to everyone's benefit. Rotating closers last year and staying with Brian Anderson on and off instead of sending him out to learn hitting are things that a lot of guys wouldn't do when things are going well. In fact they are a big part of why things went well, but benching your closer without pissing everyone off isn't something most guys can do. Ned can't, for example, and the fact that things aren't going well should make it even easier for him to make changes.

MIL could use a better manager, as they're getting close enough talent-wise where a legitimate grab for the ring is in order and Ned isn't the guy to reach it. I hesitate to draw a lot of comparisons between teams since each clubhouse is unique, but DET had the youngsters coming together last year and changed managers to raise the bar for them. Buck Showalter is another guy who gets things lined up and then gets thrown overboard when it's time to take the next step. Ned was a fine babysitter when teaching the kids, but if the team wants to step over STL next year it may be a good moment to bring in someone who'll treat them like adults and expect more from them.

What is your assessment of Yost?

I am regularly agitated to the point of aneurysm by him, but in calmer moments look south and comfort myself that he never benched Weeks or truly skagged a pitcher's arm or anything like that. Most managers seem to have similar "idiosyncracies" as Yost: poor bullpen usage, absurd veteran loyalty, odd lineup construction, running a starter out there for the ninth with a five-run lead, etc. What warms my heart is that it's clear Doug Melvin is the one calling the shots and that Yost will go along with the real decision makers when they overrule his Baseball Gumption.

So basically, I don't mind him on off days.

I will refrain from further comment until HSF or Polish have had an opportunity to respond.

Besides, I have to watch my blood pressure..................

And yes, his failure to pull the plug on Turnbow especially was infuriating. I'd peg his managing ability relative to the league (MG+?) at maybe 95.

"Stupidest Son of B*tch this side of the Mississippi wearing a baseball uniform."

You appear to have overlooked a certain Mr. Tracy.

Stupidest Son of B*tch this side of the Mississippi wearing a baseball uniform. And he’s managing my team.

There's a certain "Dude" that plies his trade in a dugout that he can't see out of that you may be forgetting.

There's a certain "Dude"

"...I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

How could I resist...one more then.


"The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that. It's good knowin' he's out there. The Dude. Takin' 'er easy for all us sinners. Shoosh. I sure hope he makes the finals."

Now that I am 73 I am up all the d*mn time. I know that reads as a rather silly complaint but there is only so many times I can clean my saddles or evaluate my portfolio.

Harvey, the Lounge is open 24-7.

Derrick Turnbow is so monumentally funny-looking that it absolutely has to be chromosomal.

That's all I have to contribute. Continue.

What about Gardenhire? Or do the Twins play on the other side of the Mississippi?

At what point does Gardenhire get credit for Minnesota making the postseason and for winning at least 90 games in four of the past five seasons?

-- MWE

At what point does Gardenhire get credit for Minnesota making the postseason and for winning at least 90 games in four of the past five seasons?

I've been wondering that for a while as well. Even last year, with injuries to Hunter and Mauer and an off-season from Morneau, they still posted a winning record. Compare the Twins records to the DMB preseason predicted records since 2002 and I believe they're the most overachieving team in all baseball in that time.

At what point does Gardenhire get credit for Minnesota making the postseason and for winning at least 90 games in four of the past five seasons?

Why does that necessarily have anything to do with Gardenhire? If he sat there knitting all game, Johan Santana would still be the best pitcher in baseball.

If Yost is so stupid for not recognizing that Turnbow was in trouble as early as May, what does it say of the NL braintrust that put Turnbow on the All-Star team in July? Or was that Ned's fault, too? :-)

Why does that necessarily have anything to do with Gardenhire? If he sat there knitting all game, Johan Santana would still be the best pitcher in baseball.

Record when Santana doesn't get the decision, 378-323. How many managers can claim a .539 winning percentage over 5 years if you toss out their ace?

I'm of two minds about Gardy. I think the day he gets credit for this 06 team coming back from June 8 is probably the day after he accepts some blame for getting them to June 7. Certainly Ryan hosed him by signing Sierra, Batista, etc, instead of real players. But Ron hosed himself by choosing Castro over Bartlett, by not giving up on White earlier, by staying with Radke's memory longer than he should have, etc.

Over the past five years I think he's been an above average manager, but I think his early 06 was an awful piece of work.

Oh, and saying that any idiot could end up in the playoffs if he had a Santana to toss out there is ridiculous. If you look at the carnage in the Twins' rotation this year and how well he protected the bullpen from overuse in the first half and how well a cradle full of rookies have been performed under duress (Neshak, Bartlett, Bonser in particular) you have to tip your hat to him this year. Toronto has Roy Holiday going pretty regularly and they were making October tee times months ago. There's more to it than an ace (though the bullpen depth does make him look smarter), and even when it appears on a platter it's not trivial to not screw things up.

One of the things that I find most maddening about Yost was/is his refusal (until August of this year) to platoon Geoff Jenkins. The Brewers' TV announcers (who are absolutely terrible, btw, unbearable) have actually been saying things like, "well Geoff is hitting .111 againtst lefties this year, but normally he's pretty good against them, his career BA against them is .260 (or whatever it is)." Sadly, this is about as close to competent analysis as Sutton and Schroeder and their central premise is just way off. Jenkins has always been terrible against lefties, he has no power or plate discipline against them. However, it seems that Yost is of the same school of thought as the announcers. Even now, he still refuses to have a righty pinch hit for Geoff when the other team brings in a lefty, despite the fact that Mench is usually on the bench and Mench destroys lefties. Obviously the other team may bring in a righty to face Mench, but maybe they wouldn't. Either way, Geoff is almost an automatic out against lefties (his game winning HR the other day notwithstanding) so what is the point of leaving him in? I just don't get it. Geoff would aactually be a good platoon player. However, Yost apparently believes either A) Geoff is actually not that bad against lefties, as his career BA against them is not that far from his overall BA, or B) Geoff is too big of a star ot too good of a player to have to deal with the 'indignity' of being platooned. Either way, the situation speaks poorly of Yost's managing ability. Why don't their seem to be any "baseball men" who have any kind of common sense? It doesn't seem like baseball is one of the harder sports to be the head coach in, I am perplexed that most managers seem to have at least several glaring weaknesses. Bizarre.


Also, HW, bk and other Brewers fans: I'm interested in what you guys think of Mike Rivera and Carlos Villanueva. I am very impressed by both guys. Rivera may not be very good at throwing guys out, but it would be a shame (imo) if that is held against him. He seems excellent at blocking balls in the dirt (although one did get away from him on Sunday in the 9th) and it's so nice to finally have a backup catcher who will get you a few hits on a regular basis (and some are even extra base hits!). Also, I've seen him play in AAA the last two years and he seems like a good guy. I'm happy for him. As for Carlos, his minor league track record in regards to his WHIP, K/IP, and K/BB is very encouraging. I saw that his relief appearance against Washington where he threw 6 no-hit innings was his 3rd appearance of the year (including minors) where he went at least 6 without allowing a hit. That's impressive. Do you guys think he can keep it up over his last 2 starts and next year?

--as Sutton and Schroeder {get}-- is what that should have said. Oops.

At what point does Gardenhire get credit for Minnesota making the postseason and for winning at least 90 games in four of the past five seasons?

Why does that necessarily have anything to do with Gardenhire?

Well, because Gardenhire IS the manager of the team, and because they HAVE won a ton of games over the past five years when I don't think anyone expected them to do that, as Chris noted above.

What set me off was the implied comment in #5 above that Gardenhire was worse than Ned Yost. Gardenhire's made some bad personnel selections, true. He's made some less than stellar on-field decisions, also (letting Joe Nathan pitch forever in Game 2 of the 2004 ALDS). But I honestly don't know what Twins' fans expect, if they look at what's happened on the field over the last five years and think for one minute that the team would have been significantly better with any other manager.

-- MWE

Well, because Gardenhire IS the manager of the team, and because they HAVE won a ton of games over the past five years when I don't think anyone expected them to do that, as Chris noted above.

I think that part of Gardenhire's problem is that he sounds like a slow, good ol' boy hick when hes interviewed. This is both in terms of what he says, and his diction. Much like Ozzie Guillen, I think that views of him as a manager often reflect this sort of image.

His big weakness is that he has a Dusty-like desire to play with his veteran toys, at least among position players. However, he's a much better tactical manager than Dusty is, and doesn't throw a temper tantrum if Ryan trades away some of his veteran presence to ensure that he doesn't use it. He also has a disturbing preference for small ball, but when your 7 through 2 slots in the order consist of Rondell White, Jason Tyner, Jason Bartlett, Luis Castillo and Nick Punto, AND YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE BETTER OPTIONS ON THE BENCH, it's hard to fault this too much.

Joe:

Agree completely about Jenkins. He has a role on the team. But because the team believes it's "all or nothing" they won't maximize his return with the club.

The starting rotation in 2007 should be:

Sheets
Capuano
Bush
Eveland
Villanueva

Doug Davis should be traded. Tomo allowed to walk.

Davis has outlived his usefulness in Milwaukee. While he did stay in the rotation all season he will always battle control problems, he's something of a jerk, and I don't like him being around the younger players, particularly the pitchers. That and his delivery drives me nuts.

I am a big fan of Eveland. I saw him pitch multiple times at both Double A and Triple A and that boy has the goods. Villanueva has been a shocker. I saw middle reliever for 5-8 years at best. But he's a battler.

The 2007 planning session isn't that hard.

so harvey

who is worse

ned yost or phil garner?

and while yrrrr at it

who is worse

levski or baseball chick?

levski

His big weakness is that he has a Dusty-like desire to play with his veteran toys, at least among position players.

Mauer became a regular at 22, Morneau at 24, Cuddyer at 25. If that's indicative of his big weakness, he's the best manager in baseball.

But I honestly don't know what Twins' fans expect, if they look at what's happened on the field over the last five years and think for one minute that the team would have been significantly better with any other manager.

I've tried to make this argument before with reference to Dusty Baker, who I think has ben a very good manager in the past: It's not that a winning team necessarily has a good manager, or that a losing team necessarily has a bad manager. But when a manager wins consistently and has a good record of success, I think he gets the benefit of the doubt. It becomes incumbent upon his naysayers to show that he's a bad manager, rather than incumbent upon his supporters to show that he's a good one. Because a manager's ultimate responsibility is not to run a good bullpen or know when to bunt or anything like that; it's to win ballgames.

I pretty much agree with Harveys' assessment, though compared to Dusty Baker's relentless trotting out of Dempster to destroy games in the 9th inning, Ned Yost's handling of Turnbow is a model of managerial wisdom. That's setting the bar pretty fricking low, though.

I like Eveland too (never mind that ghastly ERA), and was similarly shocked by Villanueva's emergence. Hendrickson has been a massive disappointment, a AAAA pitcher if there ever was one. But prior to the Cordero trade I'm not entirely sure who could have closed out games for the Brewers. Wise and de la Rosa probably aren't capable of it--Wise gives up too many HR and de la Rosa is just bad. G/Jeremi Gonzalez or Rick Helling? Don't make me laugh.

Yost is definitely not using Mench (who can be a pretty good slugger in the right situation and the right shoes) optimally. I can't see what they're going to do with him next year so my guess is he'll be dealt for pitching.

So, does Bill Stoneman finally get a 'bye on letting Turnbow go?

baseball chick Posted: September 26, 2006 at 04:37 PM (#2188403)
so harvey

who is worse

ned yost or phil garner?
30. HSF Posted: September 26, 2006 at 04:50 PM (#2188414)
and while yrrrr at it

who is worse

levski or baseball chick?
31. Eric L Posted: September 26, 2006 at 05:21 PM (#2188455)
levski

what, payback for arguing that there was way in hell the brewers would have four 20 game winners this year?

and i like the brewers...

anyhow, what is wrong with b-chick? i think she's hands down one of the best things to ever happen to btf.

too bad that too many j-rk-offs here can't appreciate what she brings to this site.

I'm just tired of seeing her follow Harvey around baiting him about Phil Garner every other goddamned week. 'The Astros would be ten games up right now if it weren't for that brain-dead redneck!' But I was being kind of an #######, and I apologize.

I must admit that I don't follow b-chick's exchange with Harvey's. So I can't comment on that.

B-chick has been getting tons of undeserved grief from people on this site for little things.

. HSF Posted: September 26, 2006 at 07:56 PM (#2188591)

I'm just tired of seeing her follow Harvey around baiting him about Phil Garner every other goddamned week.

- baiting him??? WTF?????
- i think every single thing he ever said about phil is 100% dead right and i have said that straight up at least 10 times
- i got a LOT of respect for harveys judgement of people and if i have not been real up front about it well then right now you read it right here
- AND i got a lot of respect for harvey his own self. anyone who can get his own self thrown offn this site more then backlasher, he da MAN



'The Astros would be ten games up right now if it weren't for that brain-dead redneck!'

- make it 20 games up. i'm not exactly a phil fan if you ever read my blog you would see for your own self.


But I was being kind of an #######, and I apologize.

yes you were and your apology is accepted


and thank you levski for sticking up for me. you rool!!!!

B-chick has been getting tons of undeserved grief from people on this site for little things.

... as opposed to the deserved grief that levski gets :)

-- MWE

Baseball lass:

Thank you for the kind words.

And to answer your original question: Ned Yost

Sincerely,

Harvey

... as opposed to the deserved grief that levski gets :)

Can't argue with you, Emeigh. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

i have said that straight up at least 10 times

Exactly.

And Harvey didn't get thrown off this site for anything noble like misconduct; it was just an IP glitch.

. HSF Posted: September 26, 2006 at 10:57 PM (#2188756)

i have said that straight up at least 10 times

Exactly.

exactly WHAT?
like how is that "baiting?"
haven't you ever had a female human say "you are right" without you having to, uh, do a lil something to get it????? or you just never right?


And Harvey didn't get thrown off this site for anything noble like misconduct; it was just an IP glitch.

so are you tellin me i am wrong when i saying he da MAN?

It's obvious: Turnbow's off the juice.

exactly WHAT?
like how is that "baiting?"

You already know what he's going to say about both Garner and Yost, so why do you keep asking him? I've got a few more questions for you, Harvey, if you have the time:

who is worse

Gein or Dahmer?

Bartholomay or Selig?

Dutch Elm or Chronic Wasting?

Chad Green or Antone Williamson?