Ah no.

That list was really bad.

I'd say a top 10 has to be Alexander Karelin, being upset by Rulon Gardner in the 2000 Gold Medal match in Greco Roman wrestling. Karelin, was undeafeted in international competition in for 14 years... the last 6 without giving up a point. One of the most dominant figures in any sport in modern sports history. Of course since it's grecco roman wrestling, it's not given much play. But as a story it is second to few.

What is meant by "great"? Its such a vague term to describe something like a story. Most compelling? Most attention? Most heart-warming?

When I think "greatest sports story" of the last 25 years, I guess I think of the OJ trial. It transcended sports. It interrupted the freaking NBA Finals. The Red Sox winning the World Series was a big deal I guess, but it didn't make the lead of ABC World News tonight every night.

I don't think the pervasiveness of ESPN is really a story. I certainly don't recall ever reading an article on it.

Jordan' last shot against Utah? I barely remember that.

No Mike Tyson biting Evander Holyfield? Really? No 1996 Olympic bombing?

Also kind of interesting that Lord Football didn't make the list once. College football had just one entry. No World Cup or Super Bowl, despite all those viewers.

A couple of non-baseball stories that I thought were missing were the Patriots recent run of success and Magic vs Bird in the NCAAs. THen I realized that the latter was more than 25 years ago.

No Summer Olympics either.

The Cal-Stanford play qualifies (November 1982) but that may be more of a moment than a story.

Ted Williams's head was a big story.

- OJ wasn't a sports story.

- The only thing "great" about the Red Sox winning the WS was that they were the Red Sox, or, as we pronounce it here in the Midwest, "Yankees".

- Jordan trying baseball was a far bigger story than anything he did on the basketball court. (I remember Jordan's shot against Utah...what can I say? 8-) But I remember the awful call by Hue Hollins more. Bulls fans know what I'm talking about.)

- Where's John Rocker? The whole nation was talking about him.

- Greco-Roman wrestling is not much of a story if a German or Chinese wrestler beats Karelin. Actually, what happens in Greco-Roman wrestling isn't much of a story at all.

As far as baseball goes, the 2001 World Series had to be as newsworthy as the 1989 edition.

The OJ trial isn't a sports moment, unless killing your ex-wife is a sport.

They forgot:

1984 Soviet Boycott
Pete Rose breaks Ty Cobb's record

I feel like the 1986 Bears should be on the list somewhere. They're probably the most memorable TEAM of the last 25 years, except for maybe the 2004 Red Sox.

Choice #14 is excellent. The renaissance of women's soccer that we enjoy today might never have begun without that magical, historic moment.

About the only story that has any relationship to its ranking is the Red Sox winning the Series as #1. I'd have Nicklaus winning the '86 Masters second, and the rest of them you could pretty much put in a shake and bake bag.

I also love the sidepar poll where "BALCO-steroids in baseball" is one of the "choose your favorite sports moment" choices. Nice droll touch there, although I have to admit that McGwire's HOF vote last year might have made my top 5 moments, however temporary a thrill that it might turn out to have been.

The OJ trial isn't a sports moment, unless killing your ex-wife is a sport.

According to Jeff K it isn't.

Ayrton Senna's death didn't make it?

Ayrton Senna's death didn't make it?

They didn't have room for everybody who's died during races. Also didn't have room for the guy who stabbed Monica Seles.

It's not a bad list but it sure is not a great one. I honestly don't know how you have the Red Sox winning after so long as #1 and the White Sox winning after pretty much the same amount of time doesn't make the list. Personally I would put Gibson’s Homer above Buckner's Error. And I would have picked one of Jordan's shots against Cleveland above the one against Utah. Tyson’s dominance early on made him look like the greatest fighter ever, at least the most powerful.

Personally I am just glad Bartman didn't make the list.

11. vortex of dissipation Posted: June 11, 2007 at 02:43 PM (#2400436)

Ayrton Senna's death didn't make it?

From an American POV, I think Len Bias' death was bigger.

He could have been one of the great ones. He had everything that Jordan and, now, LeBron have.

It's not a bad list but it sure is not a great one. I honestly don't know how you have the Red Sox winning after so long as #1 and the White Sox winning after pretty much the same amount of time doesn't make the list.

Because ESPN is not located in Evanston.

Ted Williams's head was a big story.

As was Barry's.

Best Regards

John

Also kind of interesting that Lord Football didn't make the list once.

"The catch" was >25 years ago. Has anything more recent been that memorable?

No Summer Olympics either.

That's surprising. Ben Johnson?

I feel like the 1986 Bears should be on the list somewhere.

I totaly thought they should be there but thought that was just the fanboy in me.

No Summer Olympics either.

Mary Lou Retton probably deserves to be on the list.

It's not a bad list but it sure is not a great one. I honestly don't know how you have the Red Sox winning after so long as #1 and the White Sox winning after pretty much the same amount of time doesn't make the list.

Because the White Sox didn't even have the biggest drought in their own city.

The spectacle of "Dan and Dave" in the '92 Olympics was a pretty big story.

Mary Lou Retton probably deserves to be on the list.

God, her perkiness bothered me. No idea why, but she could find something upbeat in a guillotine.

Best Regards

John

I honestly don't know how you have the Red Sox winning after so long as #1 and the White Sox winning after pretty much the same amount of time doesn't make the list.

really? you "honestly" dont know?
coming back from 0-3 in the ALCS might have something to do with it.
also game 7 losses in the world series in 86, 75, 67, and 46 might be a factor.
...and the order of the Sox's wins was a factor. if Chicago had done it first it would have been a bigger story than it was happening on the heels of 04.

Because ESPN is not located in Evanston.

And this list came from the USA Today, which is located in Virginia.

The absence of the White Sox has little to do with the city they're located in and more to do with their place in the conscience of the average sports fan. If it had been the Cubs who followed up the Red Sox triumph with a WS victory in 05, you can bet they'd have been on the list. In fact, it likely would have been trumpeted as a single story. Red Sox-Cubs Buck Curses kind of thing.

Dan and Dave??? I remember them, but that wasn't noteworthy.

And this list came from the USA Today, which is located in Virginia.

The absence of the White Sox has little to do with the city they're located in and more to do with their place in the conscience of the average sports fan. If it had been the Cubs who followed up the Red Sox triumph with a WS victory in 05, you can bet they'd have been on the list. In fact, it likely would have been trumpeted as a single story. Red Sox-Cubs Buck Curses kind of thing.

My point was, that ESPN has hyped the Red Sox, because of their proximity to the Red Sox, and the East Coast in general, the the point where the entire nation now turns its attention to the Red Sox, while the White Sox, a franchise with arguably as much history and a longer drought, gets the shaft. Were ESPN based in Chicago and more midwest-centered as opposed to east coast-centered, the White Sox World Series drought would probably be considered a much bigger deal.

Fun list. It's there to get you talking.

Magic Johnson's AIDS announcement lower than Jack Nicalus?

- Monica Seles stabbing. Oh, someone beat me to that one.

I feel like the 1986 Bears should be on the list somewhere. They're probably the most memorable TEAM of the last 25 years, except for maybe the 2004 Red Sox.

I think the 1985 Bears were more memorable personally. If they're going to put the Sox in first, the '85 Bears definately belong somewhere - the hype, challenging the '72 Dolphins mark, the Fridge, the playoff dominance, McMahon's headbands, a song that peaked at #41 on the charts (still the best selling single to not make the Top 40).

Mary Lou Retton probably deserves to be on the list.

God, her perkiness bothered me. No idea why, but she could find something upbeat in a guillotine.

I had such a crush on her in 1984.

Memorable teams in the last 25 years, what about the 92 Dream Team?

The other thing is that even putting aside the 86 years, the 2004 Red Sox had probably the most amazing postseason ever in terms of drama....the 0-3 to 4-3 comeback is a good candidate for the list by itself. Add in that they won the next four to sweep the world series and that's pretty amazing. And then that it's the Yankees they came back against, too.

The White Sox had a great run of wins and the WS after a long dryspell as well, but it wasn't anywhere near as dramatic...and it lacked much of the surrounding details. Some of that is ESPN, but a lot of it isn't too.

My point was, that ESPN has hyped the Red Sox, because of their proximity to the Red Sox, and the East Coast in general, the the point where the entire nation now turns its attention to the Red Sox, while the White Sox, a franchise with arguably as much history and a longer drought, gets the shaft. Were ESPN based in Chicago and more midwest-centered as opposed to east coast-centered, the White Sox World Series drought would probably be considered a much bigger deal.

And I'm saying your argument would have a lot more merit if you really believe a Cubs World Series would have been treated the same way as a White Sox one. I suppose ESPN's Bristol location and Red Sox-Yankee focus (which really didn't start until they first met in the playoffs. Until then, ESPN's national baseball coverage was much more broad) may have raised the Red Sox story a few places on this list, but the bigger reason behind the White Sox's absence is that not that many people care about the White Sox, long history and longer drought or not.

And for the record, I live in one of the few places on earth where the White Sox are the team of choice. This is nothing against the White Sox, just that for whatever reason, they are simply not a glamour team, and have maintained a lower national profile than the Red Sox for longer than ESPN has existed.

Dan and Dave weren't in the 92 Olympics. That was the story, that the entire ad campaign flopped when Dave didn't qualify.

A couple of non-baseball stories that I thought were missing were the Patriots recent run of success...

Officials refusing to call blatant holding is one of the 25 greatest stories of the last 25 years?

Officials refusing to call blatant holding is one of the 25 greatest stories of the last 25 years?

No, since it happens on every play anyway.

I do think that Vinitieri's "field goal in the blizzard/gloaming" deserves mention.

Officials refusing to call blatant holding is one of the 25 greatest stories of the last 25 years?

I take it the Pats were holding in Super Bowl Whatever The Hell Roman Number That Was when they beat the Rams. I was expecting a "tuck rule" diatribe, so this one took me by surprise.

The Patriots' blatant holding in that Super Bowl was a story the week after, so don't try to pretend it's news to you now. Marshall Faulk spent the entire game on the turf. Martz complained, but the officials waited until the Patriots did the exact same thing against the Colts two years later to take action.

Oh, so it's the old tried and true "blame the officials" excuse, huh?

I take it the Pats were holding in Super Bowl Whatever The Hell Roman Number That Was when they beat the Rams. I was expecting a "tuck rule" diatribe, so this one took me by surprise.

Real men don't tuck.

Best Regards

John

The Patriots' blatant holding in that Super Bowl was a story the week after, so don't try to pretend it's news to you now. Marshall Faulk spent the entire game on the turf. Martz complained, but the officials waited until the Patriots did the exact same thing against the Colts two years later to take action.

I'm not a Pats fan Sparkles, nor did I watch much of the game. And unlike the tuck rule, which I remember clearly and is still talked about, this really was the first I'd heard this particular complaint. (In fairness, I didn't realize you were talking about defensive holding, which I find eminently believable).

Dave qualified, not Dan.

really? you "honestly" dont know?
coming back from 0-3 in the ALCS might have something to do with it.
also game 7 losses in the world series in 86, 75, 67, and 46 might be a factor.
...and the order of the Sox's wins was a factor. if Chicago had done it first it would have been a bigger story than it was happening on the heels of 04.

I am not claiming them to be equal but to leave the White Sox completely off the list while the Red Sox win is #1 doesn't seem right...and I actively root against the White Sox.

I found it funny that in January of 2006 there were more "buy your Red Sox world series memorabilia" commercials on ESPN than there were for the White Sox.

Not really. there are a lot more Red sox fans than White sox fans.

It'sd all about market size.

Doug Flutie? Womens soccer?

Not really. there are a lot more Red sox fans than White sox fans.

It'sd all about market size.

I know. Still thought it was funny, not liking the White Sox and all.

Can't argue with Number One.

From reading this site, I would rate them:

1. Barry Bonds took steroids.
2. Hank Aaron won't show up.
3. Barry wouldn't sign for Ron Kittle.
4. Jeff Kent is not a fan.
5. Remember when Sid Bream outran Jerkarm? Ha, ha! That rocked!
6. Why the 1966 Cubs didn't win it all (a ringer, from Steve Treder!).
7. Big head! Big head!
8. Is The Rocket coming back?
9. The Rocket came back!
10. Will the Rocket please stop coming back?
11. Curt Schilling just said something.
12. Derek Jeter just dove at something.
13. Kerry Wood just broke something.
14-24. Barry Bonds is washed up/fully recovered/a total cripple/still the best/on steroids, in case you didn't know.
25. I hate you, Barry!

"Ayrton Senna's death didn't make it?"

Up until this moment, I had never heard of Ayrton Senna.

From reading this site, I would rate them:...

There really need to be more Met highjack’s in your list.

5. Remember when Sid Bream outran Jerkarm? Ha, ha! That rocked!

In fairness, that did rock.

Dan and Dave weren't in the 92 Olympics. That was the story, that the entire ad campaign flopped when Dave didn't qualify.

Who dares to soil the memory of Dave Johnson?

Dan was the one who didn't qualify. Dave won the bronze.

The Gretzky and Lance Armstrong things happened in Canada and France, which are not under USA Today's jurisdiction.

I find it hard to believe that the recent Lakers dynasty was not included anywhere on this list. I had a somewhat irrational hatred of them, but they were hard to beat in terms of both off- and on-court drama.

I personally like the 1984 McDonalds Olympics fiasco forever immortalized by the Simpsons.

1985-1986 Bears. Come on they had a hit song!
Michael Jordan retiring the first time
The Indy-CART split that destroyed the INDY 500 for awhile.
XFL
Joe Montana

Gonfalon Bubble, do you ever read non-steroids threads? There are a few here and there.

I, too, suffer from Red Sox overload -- but that 0-3 comeback was definitely an unbelievable baseball memory. I think the fact that they went on to win the WS just makes it easier to refer to "the Red Sox win the world series" as shorthand for a really amazing postseason.

Ben Johnson, Flo-Jo, the Dream Team, the baseball strike, Buster Douglas over Mike Tyson (who never beat Holyfield), Wayne Gretzky becoming the all-time leading goal scorer (as a sort of catchall moment for his career), Lakers blowing apart after their third straight title, Jackie Joyner Kersee winning whichever of her Olympic titles. That's off the top of my head, and I'd take all of those over about 2/3 of the USA Today list.

Dan was the one who didn't qualify. Dave won the bronze.

Having been corrected twice (and I was going to question myself in my original post...damn you, confidence!), I can only say that I was blinded by memories of Dan's success at later Olympics. I guess I just assumed that he was the one that qualified.

Gonfalon Bubble, do you ever read non-steroids threads? There are a few here and there.

Yeah, I think maybe I saw one once. It was about Sandy Koufax and why his statistics were less impressive in context. He should've taken some of them steroids.

Up until this moment, I had never heard of Ayrton Senna.

Wow. Just wow. At the time of his tragic death, he might have been the second most popular athlete in the world, behind only Michael Jordan.

Why would they include the Patriots' run of success when the not-included 49ers' run was so much better?

Kerri Strug was a pretty big story.

Jordan ends first part of NBA career with winning shot vs. Utah

Shouldn't that be the end of the second part of his NBA career? And I don't think that was Jordan's greatest story or moment.

Up until this moment, I had never heard of Ayrton Senna.

Wow. Just wow. At the time of his tragic death, he might have been the second most popular athlete in the world, behind only Michael Jordan.

Sorry -- never heard the name either. What did he play, cricket or soccer or curling or figure-skating or something?

Wikipedia on Ayrton Senna

Choice #14 is excellent. The renaissance of women's soccer that we enjoy today might never have begun without that magical, historic moment.

Actually, this was a critical sports moment for me in that through the hokey penalty kicks, it was guaranteed that I would continue to believe that international soccer is not actually a sport for another couple of decades.

Don't get me wrong--I love soccer. But if they decided tie baseball games by playing a couple of rounds of pepper, I probably wouldn't take it seriously either...

Next week the top 25 musical milestones of the past 25 years.

By the same reporter.

But seriously.

The Red Sox world title in '04? That is a major league homer choice if you ask me. The home run chase in '98 was much more exciting and more entertaining for people all over the place.

And Ripken's record #2...zzzzzzz. Let me guess, the reporter who picked this list was there. I mean this is bigger than 62 HR or 70 or 73 HR? No way.

Good ole Ayrton. God I miss that sonofabitch.

The 2004 Red Sox as #1 over Tiger Woods' first Masters win, Lance Armstrong's first Tour de France win, NC State's NCAA championship, Dale Earnhardt's last race, and Douglas beating Tyson? Who the heck wrote this article? Bill Simmons?

I had never heard of Ayrton Senna either.

Shouldn't that be the end of the second part of his NBA career? And I don't think that was Jordan's greatest story or moment.

I guess it was being divvied up in two parts: his Bulls career and his equally memorable run with the Wizards.

I had never heard of Ayrton Senna either.

Well now you have. I suppose there are people in Europe and South America who have never heard of Barry Bonds or Albert Pujols.

As someone pointed out, this is kind of hard to do if you don't define "great" a little more. WRT Jordan, I would say if the "Pervasiveness of ESPN" can be a "story" than "Jordan's Immense, Sports-Transcending Fame" should be one as well. At its height, it was huge.

Dave didn't just won the bronze - he did it with a stress fracture in his foot that he got in Day 1.

The Indy-CART split that destroyed the INDY 500 for awhile.

"for awhile"?

Any random NASCAR race is more popular than Indy nowadays.

I had never heard of Ayrton Senna either.

Don't feel bad, I never heard of Dale Earnhardt until the day he croaked. Same with that French nascar guy who just died a few days ago. You've got to be at least semi-retarded to begin with if you get off on watching cars endlessly circling around a track. You can see that kind of shlt every day on the Beltway.

Now if y'alls will excuse me, I have to go down and enter the South Carolina primary. I'm a lock.

"Ben Johnson, Flo-Jo, the Dream Team, the baseball strike, Buster Douglas over Mike Tyson"

Hey, I like reserve Met outfielders as much as the next guy, but this is entirely too high for Johnson. I can see Endy ahead of Buster Douglas, of course.

Don't feel bad, I never heard of Dale Earnhardt until the day he croaked. Same with that French nascar guy who just died a few days ago. You've got to be at least semi-retarded to begin with if you get off on watching cars endlessly circling around a track. You can see that kind of shlt every day on the Beltway.

I actually remember Senna dying a lot more than Earnhardt. The former was a Formula One racer, which is like a billion times cooler than NASCAR.

Next week the top 25 musical milestones of the past 25 years.

By the same reporter.

Napster, Nirvana, MTV's all-pervasiveness in the 1980s, is the key-tar 25 years old?

Napster, Nirvana, MTV's all-pervasiveness in the 1980s, is the key-tar 25 years old?

25-year-olds were only 9 when Nevermind came out. Ouch.

They didn't have room for everybody who's died during races.

Dude, Senna was arguably the best driver of any type of race car EVER. This is easily the equivalent of Dale Earnhardt dying (which did make the list), and probably more so since Senna was still in his prime when he died so imagine Jeff Gordon dying or something like that. Even more so because it was such an inexplicably black weekend in F1. No one dies at a race weekend for 12 years, then Rubens Barrichello nearly dies on the Friday, Roland Ratzenberger dies on the Saturday, and then the best driver ever dies on the Sunday while leading the race.

I love Mario Andretti, but Senna was three times as good as Mario. He was absolutely the most brilliant race car driver of his era in any type of racing, and hence him dying while leading a Grand Prix is shocking stuff. He got a state funeral in Brazil and three days of national mourning (and Brazil isn't exactly a piddling little country bereft of heroes) and the World Cup team dedicated its victory to him.

My point was, that ESPN has hyped the Red Sox, because of their proximity to the Red Sox, and the East Coast in general, the the point where the entire nation now turns its attention to the Red Sox, while the White Sox, a franchise with arguably as much history and a longer drought, gets the shaft. Were ESPN based in Chicago and more midwest-centered as opposed to east coast-centered, the White Sox World Series drought would probably be considered a much bigger deal.

Sorry homes, but this is crap on so many different levels. OK, obviously ESPN's proximity to the East Coast gives it a natural Red Sox bias, since most of their workforce probably comes from the Northeast and is NY/Boston fans.

But the White Sox have as much history? Come on. The White Sox were a consistent second-division club before the divisional period and had exactly one playoff appearance from 1919-1983. That's why they didn't get as much attention for their slump. Add to it that they've always been the second most popular team in their own city (with the second biggest drought), and it's easy to see why they weren't as well known as the Red Sox. The Red Sox had a prodigiously talented team in the 1940s that blew a World Series they were heavily favored in, could never quite get the advantage over the Yankees. They got a surprise pennant in 1967 beating out three other teams, had a continued period of success in the 70s that included playing in the greatest ever World Series and blowing a 14 game lead to the Yankees, and then came within one strike of the World Series.

Ted Williams. Carl Yastrzemski. Luke Appling. Nellie Fox. Not quite the same...

The Red Sox have had a strong fanbase since the late 60s. Lots of kids go to Boston for college and come away fans. New England transplants are scattered throughout the country.

Wikipedia on Ayrton Senna

Good rule of thumb: if the word "whilst" is used in the first two sentences of someone's Wikipedia entry, the subject will not be anyone that Americans care about.

Reading through this thread, I would say that the biggest story that they missed was the Dream Team.

I realise this is probably American stuff only but if we were to mention for arguments sake...

Cricket - Australia vs. South Africa in the 1999 World Cup, also England winning the Ashes in 2005.
Rugby - England Winning the World Cup in 2003 or France upseting the All Blacks in the 1999 Semi Final.
Football - How about the success of the 1994 World Cup in the USA or Beckhams massive deal to play for LA??

Michael Phelps should be there for his performance in the World Champs this year. HE IS AWESOME.

BTW, great stuff on Senna, Flynn.

also England winning the Ashes in 2005

England Winning the World Cup in 2003

Glad to see you give credit where it is due, Phil!

The biggest story in World Football in the last 25 years is arguably, sadly, the Heysel or Hillsborough disasters. The Biggest on the pitch moment? Not sure, but Maradona's "Hand of God" and his superb 2nd goal in the same game were a pretty big deal.

And you could probably fit all of the people in Europe who have heard of Albert Pujols inside Busch Stadium, but that's Europe's loss, not Alberts

Michael Johnson winning the 200 and 400 in his gold shoes was one of the big stories of the '96 Olympics.

Next week the top 25 musical milestones of the past 25 years.

The Rolling Stones Farewell Tour.

"Well now you have. I suppose there are people in Europe and South America who have never heard of Barry Bonds or Albert Pujols."

True, but the thread's article was printed in USA Today.

Also, I'm sorry that Mr. Senna died, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of auto racing as a "sport". Mentally, I kind of group it in with things like chess and competitive eating, which also require training and specialized equipment, but aren't really sports.

Why would they include the Patriots' run of success when the not-included 49ers' run was so much better?

Because the Niners are from SF, and everybody knows that SF is less important than Boston.

I had never heard of Senna either, but count me among those who consider auto racing a sport. It requires endurance, hand-eye coordination, quick decision making and skill. And it has a competitive aspect, which makes it different from, say, cheerleading.

Also, I'm sorry that Mr. Senna died, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of auto racing as a "sport". Mentally, I kind of group it in with things like chess and competitive eating, which also require training and specialized equipment, but aren't really sports.

It may be the most boring television sport on earth this side of soccer, but any activity that takes place at well over 100 MPH, where death can come in an instant, where your only breaks in the action last about a minute or so, where the reflexes of a cat are a job requirement, and when your competitors are breathing down your neck at all times----that ain't like moving a bishop or eating a hot dog. Those drivers are athletes every bit as much as Tim Duncan or Albert Pujols.

High-level ballroom dancing requires endurance, hand-eye coordination, quick decision making, and skill, and it has a competitive element. Is that a sport? Personally, I don't think so...

Similarly, the possibility of imminent death means that drivers are tough and/or brave, but there are lots of non-sports activities that can get you killed, too.

High-level ballroom dancing requires endurance, hand-eye coordination, quick decision making, and skill, and it has a competitive element. Is that a sport? Personally, I don't think so...

Similarly, the possibility of imminent death means that drivers are tough and/or brave, but there are lots of non-sports activities that can get you killed, too.

But when you combine all those elements, you do have a sport.

I have a hard time considering it a "sport" when the results are determined by a panel of judges (ballroom dancing, figure skating) or by critics (ballet performances), purely on the basis of aesthetics. Baryshnikov has every bit as much grace and athleticism in him as Michael Jordan, but being body slammed in the middle of a leap and having to maneuver around it isn't part of Baryshnikov's job description.

Why would they include the Patriots' run of success when the not-included 49ers' run was so much better?


Because the Niners are from SF, and everybody knows that SF is less important than Boston.

Actually

1) They included no NFL stories

2) I was the one who mentioned the Pats. I forgot about the Niners. However, I think that the Patriots had a tougher salary cap regime to deal with (I could be wrong, but isn't that what brought SF down?)

3) Now that I think of it, the '85 Bears might be a bigger NFL story. If not, Payton breaking Jim Brown's record might be it.

"I have a hard time considering it a "sport" when the results are determined by a panel of judges..."

You don't think boxing is a sport?

Well, it depends on what is being judged. Stuff like ballroom dancing is judged on aestetics and what's to account for that? Aren't aestetics simply a matter of taste?

Also, with regards to dancing...do they really need decision making? I thought that a couple practices their routine and then performs it for a set of judges.

Talk on what is or isn't a sport? Where's Jeff when you need him?

Right here.

Also, I'm sorry that Mr. Senna died, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the idea of auto racing as a "sport". Mentally, I kind of group it in with things like chess and competitive eating, which also require training and specialized equipment, but aren't really sports.

Preach on, brother.

I'm not sure what the difference is between something like ballroom dancing and figure skating or gymnastics. Or some of those equestrian events in the Olympics.

As outlined in the Lounge over the weekend:

1) If it's judged, it's not a sport.
2) If it doesn't involve a ball (or a puck, whatever, some object d'play) it's not a sport.
3) If, during the course of play, you never move faster than walking, it's not a sport.
4) If it involves batting something back and forth over a net, it's not a sport.

Boxing is the only known exception.