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Thursday, June 12, 2008
U.S.S. Mariner: DMZ: Rick Sutcliffe is a horrible person and ESPN’s no better
Not since ball-peen mad Peter William Coonan was allowed to visit his father’s gravesite has a Sutcliffe been treated so badly!
I was watching ESPN’s broadcast of the Braves game tonight, and there was a really, really weird moment where they were discussing Rick Sutcliffe taking time off to go get cancer treatment, and Erin Andrews was in the stands and wished him well or something — I wasn’t really paying attention, it seemed totally pointless — at which point Sutcliffe went off on a bizarre rant about her, how good she looked, her skirt, and how everyone was watching her and her skirt and when they cut to the broadcast booth, his partner had this weird look of terror and shock on his face, and they chatted about how distracting she was around the batting cage.
This should be Rick Sutcliffe’s last job announcing anything. He shouldn’t be hired to do dog races. He shouldn’t be able to ever get a quarter for hawking wares at garage sales.
I don’t care that he has cancer.
I don’t care that Erin Andrews is attractive, or that she wore a skirt.
He should be fired for making comments like that. More than that, he should be fired for this rant, about her.
...That’s it, that’s all I have. #### you, Rick Sutcliffe. #### you, other guy in the booth. You’re embarrassments to my gender.
Repoz
Posted: June 12, 2008 at 06:56 AM | 429 comment(s)
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Her whole career has been made because of the way she looks. Do you think she dresses the way she does because it is comfortable?
Yeah, she's asking for it wearing those ... skirts and ... blouses?
Wait, you actually think that it is appropriate for some to comment on a co-worker's looks and dress? On national television? Seriously?
As amply demonstrated by Sutcliffe, it's not exactly a prerequisite.
Bull and crap. Has she maybe gotten an opportunity or two that she may not have had she been less attactive? Maybe, but you don't know that and I don't either (and there are no small number of male on-screen personalities who have advanced based on their looks as well).
That said, Andrews is really good at her job. She knows sports, does not concentrate on fluff, and based on the number of games she covers, she works really, really hard.
She doesn't deserve this kind of crap. She gets enough of it from the fans and athletes. She does not need it from her own coworkers.
You're missing out, Shooty!
An opportunity or two? Nice one. What are the odds Erin Andrews is where she is today if she looked like a typical female?
Sure she knows sports, works hard, doesn't concentrate on fluff, and is good at her job. So does Michelle Voepel. Once is covering all the high profile events for ESPN, and another is covering college women's basketball and the WNBA. Why is that?
It is what it is. Sutcliffe should have kept his mouth shut. But this paternalistic "poor Erin" stuff is nauseating. She's hot, ESPN knows it, so ESPN shows her off.
/Costas
Sure they do. And they are probably deserving of some criticism of their own for cynical calculation and pandering. That doesn't excuse Sutcliffe, though (and I realize we agree on that), nor does it justify everything ever said or written by Erin Andrews to be prefaced by a reference to her beauty.
There's a difference between a show that markets itself to jag-offs and half-brains and the broadcast of an MLB game that is supposed to cater to a general audience.
I am not interested nor inclined to be politically correct. Just pointing out that in the current climate this stuff is frowned upon.
Sutcliffe is, of course, a moron. He once spent the better part of 2 innings arguing with Gary Thorne that Ozzie Guillen should be the MVP (this was in '05) despite Thorne's repeated insistance that managers were not eligible and, in fact, had their own award.
Save Kruk.
I'm not trying to jump on you Harveys, but this isn't about being PC. It's about being respectful of a coworker. Even if physical beauty were Erin Andrews's only qualification, commenting on it in the workplace, in public, is disrespectful. Calling for Sutcliff to be ritually beaten or whatever is pretty over the top, but he should be made to understand why what he said was not OK.
Heh. That's funny -- that ESPN has a Human Resources department that polices these things. Good one.
I hope you aren't referring to John Clayton because, while I have to this point in my life been strictly hetrosexual, when it comes to John Clayton...GRRRRR!
I am sure Harold Reynolds would disagree.
It's worth noting that this is a pattern with Sut. I've seen at least two other games in which he's made comments that were, to me, clearly inappropriate. Not borderline, but way over the top. I'm surprised ESPN continues to put them on the same broadcast team after the Harold Reynolds firing.
I would like to see all points of view on this, but I have a very hard time understanding how you could justify this behavior by saying that Andrews was hired because of her looks. How is that relevant to a broadcaster harassing her on air?
How so? That's my favorite Updike story but I don't see the parallel here.
Regardless of whether Andrews is deserving of her job - from the ESPN games I watched, she seemed quite competent - there is absolutely no excuse for public, national harassment of a co-worker.
I find ESPN's casual sexism pretty interesting considering that much of their male talent could be charitably described as "unattractive" in the looks department.
Actually most of the anchors fall well within the cleaned-up frat guy look that is the default handsome man in our culture. Then of course you've got the actual journalists who actually know their sport deeply, like John Clayton and Tim Kurkjian. And the ex-athletes, who are mostly pretty good looking too, unless they're elderly or John Kruk or Ron Jaworski.
There are a few non-hot-chick women who have advanced far in sports broadcasting, like Linda Cohn and Shelley Smith. But since the shows are watched by 90% men, well, they have to be a lot more competent than anyone else.
Anyway I got rear-ended by a cab driver a couple nights ago. No he didn't say I'm sorry I am drunk, which he was. He said, "Its not my fault I was on the phone."
No, I'm not allowed to hit people anymore.
Whatever the case, I'd rather watch Erin Andrews than the Braves lately...
I guess that sensitive male thing still plays with the chicks in Seattle.
I'm still not over the embarrassment of Tom Green.
That's pretty egregious. I got side swiped while unloading groceries from my car, ripping off the rear driver's side door a couple of months ago and was somehow declared liable. Probably because I wasn't drunk.
...That’s it, that’s all I have. #### you, Rick Sutcliffe. #### you, other guy in the booth. You’re embarrassments to my gender.
Why don't you just change the channel if you're that upset? You heard something on TV that offended you, so don't watch it anymore.
I'll take it a step further - at this point it doesn't matter what she thinks or whether she feels compelled to make a case out of it. If I said that about a female coworker - not on TV - any reporting of it by anyone in the room, regardless of whether they're the "hurt" party, would be grounds for my discipline and perhaps dismissal.
I never even heard of Erin Andrews until now, but the idea that there aren't a zillion men out there on TV who weren't hired in great part for their looks is almost as absurd as the idea that looks played no part in Erin Andrews' hiring.
It's not just TV, either. In the past few years, there have been several articles to the effect that the "looks factor" is even affecting the career prospects of novelists, due to the ever-increasing prominence of the dust jacket photo of the author in promoting the book. And this phenomenon has been noted for both women and men. It's a fact of life that reflects a combination of human nature, trivilization of values, and a culture based far more of image than substance. And it ain't going away anytime soon.
I don't think Sutcliffe should be fired, but someone might want to give him a little talk about elementary respect for a colleague.
I know this is the conventional wisdom, but I think it's wrong. I can't think of a single other female sideline reporter that is even remotely attractive. Particularly on ESPN. Bonnie Bernstein on CBS has a certain something, but she's also clearly competent, as is Andrews. I think most people just have a beef with the whole idea of a sideline reporter, so we dismiss them by saying they got hired for their looks. I just don't think reality supports this notion.
http://www.redlasso.com/ClipPlayer.aspx?id=5908f2b8-dcb6-4250-b176-5f16039b348e
But looks do count in the TV business. Anyone remember Karie Ross at ESPN in the late '80s (and whatever happened to her, anyway?).
Pam Oliver
Fair enough. Great tidbit on her- she worked a Giants game a couple of years ago and was interviewing Tiki Barber. The interview ended and she kicked it back to the booth, but her mic was still on and she said to Tiki: "I have to bring my thesaurus when I'm talking to you, Boo." Totally hilarious, and very professional to refer to a player as "Boo."
This.
Seriously, why is this stuff so hard for people? It's not like Sutcliff's fresh out of the locker room either, he's had over a decade to familiarize himself with basic workplace do's and don'ts.
My guess is that we'll never know. Regardless of how she actually feels, she seems to be very on-point when it comes to playing this stuff off and not playing the "poor me; a woman in a man's world" card. Almost every interview with her revolves around what people are saying about her on the blogs, and whether it's an act or not, she does a very good job of acting like she doesn't care too terribly much.
This entire thread is an embarrassment to my gender.
You are wrong.
Well, them and guys with daughters who would like to see tham eventually enter a work environment where guys aren't commenting on their legs.
And since when are homely women not allowed to have an opinion? We homely guys certainly spout ours often enough.
The only comment here by itself worth noting is the end of post 39 which was incredibly vulgar, and I am astonished is still on display.
Having written that I understand that the poster of said comment will quite possibly direct a similarily crude remark involving my wife or other female relative. I would find that........disappointing.
But such are the risks of a public chat room.................
So's your mom.
* My first one and I don't mean it seriously. It just seemed to be calling out for it. It's been a long day already and it's not even lunch.
A man defending a woman's right not to be harassed = gay!!!
Your comments on this thread are reprehensible, and a perfect example of the way in which misogyny functions in America - reducing a woman to her attractiveness and denying her basic rights to fair treatment. And tossing in gay-baiting to boot. Truly awful behavior here.
I agree. My guess is it pisses her off. But she knows that the answer is to just keep doing her job and doing it well, regardless. The women who succeed in life know which battles to fight. Same goes for the men, of course. If a guy gets rattled by harrassment (usually not of a sexual nature, of course) he isn't going to go far. I think ESPN should discipline Sutcliffe because you can't have announcers saying things that will offend a good chunk of your audience. But women deal with this sort of thing all the time and I'd guess she'll get through it professionally.
I remember Joe Namath disagreeing.
Also, Dei Lynam. Although she actually got into the business because of nepotism rather than her looks.
So, the idea that Sutcliffe is "a horrible person" because of this is silly IMO--but it DOES show he is kind of a dumbass with poor judgment.
Good use of it.
Didn't everybody already know this about Rick Sutcliffe? Is he the one who had the rambling mostly incoherent "interview" with George Clooney a few years ago, or am I getting the ex-jock "dumbass with poor judgment" ESPN announcers mixed up?
edit: To answer my own question, Google confirms that I remembered correctly. Sadly, YouTube no longer has video of the incident, because of MLB copyright issues.
So's your mom.
I work with a lot of pretty hot women
Sales rep, eh?
Why don't you just change the channel if you're that upset? You heard something on TV that offended you, so don't watch it anymore.
An alternate strategy would be to express one's hopes that the thing he generally enjoys watching should become even more enjoyable by ceasing to contain certain forms of idiocy.
EDIT: I see the word "harassment" being throw about in regards to Sutcliffe's comments. How on Earth does anyone read "harassment" in anything like this? Was he hitting on her or something? Get real.
Yeah, but if we started at that, we'd have to remove at least 60% of his posts and it would require near constant monitoring of the site.
Not that it would be a bad idea, mind you. Stay classy!
Andy, you hang out here too much, pardner! DMZ is Derek Zumsteg and USS Mariner is an excellent baseball blog about a terrible baseball team.
But Rick Sutcliffe is still "kind of a dumbass with poor judgment". I'm just not sure this is the best example of it.
I remember Andrews when she used to do highlights during Braves games on TBS. She was absolutely horrible. Could barely get through the script in the alloted time. Still, for what they hired her for, she was an overachiever.
Then I'll just chalk it up to a (very) bad day on Zumsteg's part. I agree that he's usually pretty good when he posts here.
where??
where??
Newsblog has a link.
Here's another link
Has DMZ ever worked with females before? This was friendly banter, nothing remotely close to harassment.
You don't have to pretend anything. Just remember that she is a human being and someone's daughter. Discussing her sexyness or hotness publicly in a work situation is inappropriate. Have we really gotten to a point in society where simple politeness and respect in the workplace is too much to ask?
I did, and like anything else, as I said, it's a question of degree. Sutcliffe would have been better off not saying it, and it is simple, but useful, to imagine if it was your wife or GF or sister in Andrews' situation. I think "nothing at all offensive" is giving the guy too much slack, just as "horrible person" is giving him too much grief.
If I said something like this to one of my sexy colleagues on a windy day on campus, I would be seen as kind of a dumbass, and I think that is where Sutcliffe fits in. Also, FWIW, Sutcliffe is married. I wonder how Mrs. Sut sees this.
I am sure Andrews is used to it, probably didn't care that much, and since I watch most games muted, I have never heard her.
WRT Zumsteg, IIRC he made a lot of USSM posts pushing for Kim Ng as Mariners' GM before the Bavasi hire, and will or has start doing it again soon when Bavasi gets canned. Also, either Zumsteg himself or someone connected to him is or was working on a novella or novel about the first female player in the majors, which I believe was linked at USSM for a time. So, I think he is a obviously a guy who is concerned with women's issues--a fine thing, mostly--but is over-the-top rhetorically here.
Andy you are so far off here. This happens every single week and it is awkward and uncomfortable every single week. Watching an old man flirt with a young woman is sickening and that's what it was. How do I know this? Because it happens every single week.
I think we're experiencing some sort of cultural disconnect here.
So at your place of work, it would be OK to say the following to a female coworker- "Wow, that was some skirt you were wearing today! None of the guys were listening to the accountant go over the financial statements- they were too busy checking you out!"
Or would it be OK to say it ABOUT her, but not TO her?
I'm geninunely interested because around these parts, you'd be shitcanned in about 5 minutes.
Nevertheless, part of the issue, IMO, is the way Sutcliffe said what he did. Taken on its face, it wasn't that much more outrageous than what Dave O'Brien said. The way Sutcliffe spoke though, he sounded like a drunken lech.
Again, time and place. If Andrews likes it when older married male colleagues comment on her looks in a semi-flirtatious way, and has encouraged/not discouraged that, and Sutcliffe and others do so around the ESPN facilities, fair enough. But even if that is the case, doing it on the air is pretty stupid.
I don't know, but like I said, I have and do, and often, women are uncomfortable with this kind of stuff, if it comes from the wrong guy and/or at the wrong time, but don't say much about it publicly because they think guys will say "It was friendly banter" or some such. I have seen that many times, and that is why I am careful around the office.
To me it seems pretty silly to hire someone based primarily on their hotness and then make that an unmentionable topic. That's the primary reason they are on the payroll, but please don't mention it, just pretend you are cutting to her ten times a game because of her unique insight.
A new co-worker that you hardly know? Out of bounds. Someone who has shown to be rather sensitive about being complimented like that? Out of bounds. Someone who engages in the banter/flirtation and gives it right back? Sure...it is called goofing off and having fun.
That's what Sutcliffe AND Andrews were doing...she was talking about her yellow dress being "for a boy"; she didn't seem offended at all. We don't know what goes on behind the scene there, but I'm pretty sure if Andrews doesn't like comments like that she will put a stop to them real quick. As someone said, it happens all the time.
It is pretty silly. That doesn't in any way justify being an ass about it.
Making that kind of comment on air is utterly inexcusable.
No. They weren't having a one-on-one conversation. They were on the air.
Her looks are obviously a part of her package, obviously part of her job description. She wasn't in the stands at Wrigley wearing slacks and a blazer with her hair pinned back, she was out there lookin' hot as part of the job.
More sexist than acknowledging a woman's good looks is the idea that poor little girls are helpless to live out in the world of men without some other man there to protect them, or rules of behavior and language.
As for kevin's comments, and mine, they're both poking fun at the silliness of political correctness, of people here who way too often are looking to find offense in what people say.
Besides, Kevin lives on this board to give offense.
Wait -- I thought "Joey B." was kevin's sock puppet account?
I did, and like anything else, as I said, it's a question of degree. Sutcliffe would have been better off not saying it, and it is simple, but useful, to imagine if it was your wife or GF or sister in Andrews' situation. I think "nothing at all offensive" is giving the guy too much slack, just as "horrible person" is giving him too much grief.
I don't have a sister, but my wife is in the upper 1% of 48 year old women, and she would have reacted exactly as Erin Andrews did. She's always been of the opinion that when men stop hitting on her, it's all over. If Ms. Andrews had exhibited any degree of discomfort, I would react differently, but she showed absolutely no evidence of any discomfort whatsoever in that clip.
Part of the problem I have with the DMZ's reaction is that he imagines that all women react identically to comments like Sutcliffe's. Just because Gloria Steinem gets offended by things like this doesn't mean that all women do, and if Erin Andrews seems fine with it, I can't quite understand why it should bother a blogger.
Andy you are so far off here. This happens every single week and it is awkward and uncomfortable every single week. Watching an old man flirt with a young woman is sickening and that's what it was. How do I know this? Because it happens every single week.
I usually don't watch ESPN baseball, so I can't pass judgment on all these other times you're talking about. To the extent that the women in question seem discomforted by any of his comments, then of course he'd be out of line. But that clearly wasn't the case here.
Kevin's true name is Legion.
Not a fan of [link deleted], huh?
It's almost always true that people who overreact, who are "sickened" or "angered" by the behavior of others, are projecting their own issues.
Sutcliffe's a moron, but he's harmless.
I feel sorry for you guys who are afraid of your own sexual shadows.
Chris Matthews, in the clip above, went much, much farther and made the whole situation uncomfortable.
Nah. No one really said she can't handle herself, or even implied it, except maybe Zumsteg. And, like I said, if she is into older married dudes checking her out and talking to her about it, her call. We are saying that Sutcliffe said some stupid #### on the air.
People use the "PC is silly" line all the time. It is just a label used to duck complex realities about varying sensibilities. I am sure there are things that don't offend me that would offend you. Does that make you "silly?" IIRC you are the same guy who posted yesterday that "Race is always a factor in American life. Period." I happen to pretty much agree, but a lot of people would say "sounds pretty much like PC silliness to me".
Probably. And it may be that ESPN producers encourage the kind of stuff Sutcliffe said on the clip to attract viewers. Doesn't mean some of those viewers might find it irritating or offensive or that they are necessarily wrong to do so.
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