Nevermind that ESPN sends take down notices to any website that ever posts any video from ESPN, no matter how benign, just as MLB does. But now that he's in a tizzy about this issue, it's ESPN trying to suppress commentary.

ESPN, and MLB, are wrong. Fair use is fair use. He's right, regardless of what ESPN does in other circumstances.

bc --

You mean you didn't read the terms and conditions before clicking the "I agree" link?

I'm under no illusions that the porno world isn't a sordid affair, but I think it's directly related to the fact we think people older than us getting it on is gross; and god forbid old/young sexual contact, or even the suggestion of it. (And yes, of course there's old woman/young guy porn out there, though I'll provide not even an indirect link to that.)

As for the rest... it's not about behaving however you like without regard for others, but the absurd movement in the opposite direction -- being so afraid of giving offense that the darker aspects of human nature, and the humor to be found there, that we chop off our humanity not just below the waist, but below the neck.

Puritans have always bugged me... I've certainly got repression issues myself.

And the 'word games' I was referring to weren't manners, but the constant intellectual parsing of meaning that most threads degenerate into.

Regarding my daughters, I hope I've instilled in them good sense from a young age -- the ability to think for themselves, to be wary of the sticks and stones that can hurt them and not worry too much about the words. I'm divorced, but have made sure to stay a presence in their lives; though upon introspection this week, I realize I have to do much more than that.

You are not wrong in your commentary about sexual harassment, and it's not that easy to find a person who understands the Bible as the story of mankind, warts and all.

Including God's.

I like you bc, cause you shoot straight.

BTW, what were you wearing while typing that last post?

ESPN, and MLB, are wrong. Fair use is fair use. He's right, regardless of what ESPN does in other circumstances.

The problem is that he framed it such that ESPN was doing something differently in this instance to try and squelch this particular discussion.

As for the rest... it's not about behaving however you like without regard for others, but the absurd movement in the opposite direction -- being so afraid of giving offense that the darker aspects of human nature, and the humor to be found there, that we chop off our humanity not just below the waist, but below the neck.

But, you see, no one wants that. The question is whether, when we condemn men who publicly leer at their coworkers, we are cutting off humanity "below the neck". I don't think we are. I think that, rather, we are working (in a small way) toward a world in which everyone has a better chance at a fulfilling life.

You have chosen both to baldly ignore bbc's earlier comment on the way in which male "banter" is often perceived by women, and you insist on merely asserting the claim that must be defended - whether certain limits on workplace conduct constitute the neutering of all humanity. I think that's ludicrously over-the-top. No one's been neutered or disembodied - we're just trying to make creeps not act creepy.

I'm promising myself this will be my last response tonight... think I've spilled enough words for one day.

if someone is trying to talk to you without succumbing to emotions like anger, you think they are looking down on you? because they can control themselves?

If they are really angry, let it show. Not like Milton Bradley, but not pretending I haven't bothered them only to take it out on me later when my back is turned. On these threads, by burying that anger in a lot of "discourse", or pretending to be above emotion and feeling.

For instance, Kevin is often an ass on these threads, but you know where he stands. Definitely buy him a beer next time he's in NC.

how would you go about solving human ills? assuming you want to, cuz i'm not sure. of course i'm uncomfortable with my baser urges. they tend to be counter productive.

We're all uncomfortable with them; our culture is uncomfortable with them, except when channeled through sports, or sending others to go to war for us out of our sight.

There is no simple solution to solving human ills. I'm too old to any longer believe there's a single key to human life. It's more like one of those video games where you have to go through many levels to get to the end.

I do believe in the basic theories of psychologists like Reich and Lowen who have found that repression is rooted in body armor and has negative effect upon our organism, creating vicious loops of personal/social disorder.

If we all had better orgasms, were truly free in our bodily/emotional expression and not just when we pile-drived the cortex with mood-altering drugs, it wouldn't bring world peace, but there'd definitely be more human harmony.

Just a thought. Until I've solved some of my own personal ills, I've got no business trying to solve the world's.

I'm sure many here would agree.

i been hanging out here too long. i am starting to really like nieporent...

sigh


alex darling boy,

honestly, i got no problem with old folks gettin it on and i hope that husband and i will someday be some of those old folks still gettin it on, but there is something that - well, how can i say this - you shouldn't be gettin it on with someone's grandfather. or granmother. something disrespectful somehow - maybe it's one my own personal commandments - thou shalt not screw somebody's grandaddy

- as for giving offense, well, you hafta draw a line somehow between good natured curiosity and rudeness. sometimes people are just trying to understand you. my mama told me that when she went to college she met a lot of people who were shocked that - there are black people in texas, black people can get sunburned - a lot of people who weren't sure whether or not to call her colored or Negro or black or afro-american - which one was right. and she had a friend who had a lot darker skin and the white kids wanted to touch her skin. now she could have got offended, but she didn't because sometimes people are like trying to find out about you and are not sure where boundaries are. you know what i'm sayin...

- and yeah, when you are dealing with someone else at work you got to find out carefully who they are and how to talk to them and where their boundaries are. and you never know where someone has been. and some people more sensitive than others. and sometimes it is a shame that there had to be all these artificail boundaries put up by companies but unfortunately they had to because some people don't understand that you should at least try to treat other people like people and not things...

and alex,

the one thing a teenage grrrl needs is her daddy. because especially when you are 13 it is a really bad time because your mind is messed and you are obsessed with how you appear to others - it is the stupid hormones - and you can't never get nothing right and you NEED approval and it is helpful if you can get it from someone who loves you that you don't have to have sex with to get the approval. so yeah, you need to be spending lots of time with your grrrls.
- smile
which is why warts and all i love my daddy. because he my daddy. and thats how things are.

- and as for what i'm wearing,

well it IS texas. so it IS hot. and moist. and the electric is expensive so we keep the AC at 80. so no big black boots, i'm afraid. just my extra large astros shirt. and

Matt --

I respectfully believe the limits have gone too far in the wrong direction when Sutcliffe's comments are seen as something that needs correcting. And I think most of the lines drawn on workplace talk are too restrictive. I sincerely don't believe it leads to a more fulfilling life for more people, but less.

Perhaps I've worked too long in a stressful environment with far majority women where verbal bantering goes on all the time. I get harassed all the time in my workplace, a lot of it from my supervisor, some of it which irritates me at times. But the vast majority of it is just the humorous blowing off of steam. Sutcliffe's comments would even rate an eyeblink there, though I'll admit you wouldn't make them in certain public situations where you know your audience is uptight.

I don't think ESPN is one of those uptight environments, including its audience. And jocks are jocks, esp. in baseball.

As for your criticisms of my writing, I plead guilty. I actually used to be a hack journalist, and I have exaggerated to make a point.

But I don't think I'm the only man to feel neutered by working life, and in a way that goes far beyond the allowance of making a sexual comment or two.

I welcome you to point out the contradictions in my arguments.

But I'll continue to try my best to be just like I am -- contrarian.

bc --

Just leave the rest to my imagination. (My ac's at 78, btw)

Thanks for the advice about my 13-year-old. I know I'm driving her more nuts than the other way 'round. She's really is perfect, despite that wart on her knee, and it has nothing to do with maintaining some false standard. She's awesome the way God made her.

I'll try to keep letting her know that.

For instance, Kevin is often an ass on these threads, but you know where he stands. Definitely buy him a beer next time he's in NC.

Not specifically about kevin but about the concept: This is a stance I never agreed with or even understood. "Yeah, he's a jerk, but he's honest, so therefore worthy of accolade."

Um, no. He's an ass and a jerk. The fact that he's honest about it makes him no less of an ass or a jerk. So you're enabling and encouraging someone to be even more of an ass and a jerk by telling him what a good job he's doing. I just don't get it.

besides, us females are real good at telling males we wanna have sex without having to actually come out and say - hello, would you please have sex with me... and it sure would help it some men weren't so **** dense that sometimes you practically HAVE to....

We're not dense lisa--it's just that society decrees a stiff penalty on guys who guess wrong on the signals.

If you don't tell us outright and we misread the signals it's called sexual harassment. Guys have learned to play it safe and unless they make it crystal clear we just assume we're misreading the signals and don't act on them.

Best Regards

John

I've just scanned the last page of this thread. What's all this talk of old people getting it on? And, more importantly, where are the links? Giggity!

Also, you all suck for not jumping into the Cuban baseball thread. There was a story in there of guys seeing how long they could stay in a closed refrigerator! We had appliance/human harassment going on!

So those that couldn't last that long suffered premature Maytagejection?

So those that couldn't last that long suffered premature Maytagejection?

See, this is what's so disappointing. I was hoping I'd have 200 posts like this to read when I got to work this morning.

If you don't tell us outright and we misread the signals it's called sexual harassment. Guys have learned to play it safe and unless they make it crystal clear we just assume we're misreading the signals and don't act on them.

Ah, the old rationalization. John, you're going way beyond the immediate topic and into dangerous territory. Not sure you want to do that.

My experience is that harassment in the workplace is hardly ever the result of misread "signals." It is most often a comment that "objectifies" someone else by focusing on their looks, dress or gender in a way that undermines their role as a fellow worker or person. These are often totally unprovoked in any way. Tone of voice and relationships can mitigate the extent of the actual intent, but those are often hard to read.

My own teenage daughter (and yes, Lisa, I've made it clear that I consider her to be the best young woman in the world whenever I can) has learned to notice those sorts of comments wherever they appear--in the media or at school--and I'm glad she has. She'll be stronger and better prepared for it.

updike's got this guy saying stuff that's way too nuanced and incisive for the character

Yeah, the New Yorker crowd creams their collective jeans at this kind of stuff. Man, can I not stand Updike.

updike's got this guy saying stuff that's way too nuanced and incisive for the character

Yeah, the New Yorker crowd creams their collective jeans at this kind of stuff. Man, can I not stand Updike.

It's a great story, as insufferable as Updike usually is, though some of his story collections are pretty good. Luckily for me I was self-taught about literature so I wasn't poisoned by the literary cliques out there until I got to grad school. I was amazed to find how many writers hated each other. I am nostalgic for the days when I'd go to Logos books in Santa Cruz, buy whatever story collections they had on the bargain shelf, whether I'd heard of the writer or not, and then head to the beach in Moss Landing to read them. Good times! God how I wish I had that much time again.

My experience is that harassment in the workplace is hardly ever the result of misread "signals."

I think what he's saying is that it's too scary to contemplate what would happen if a misread signal resulted in a broken work relationship, or worse.

john,

i will agree that there is lots of females who forget that if you send a signal to a man in the wrong place/wrong time it gonna cause problems.

and some men think that any sign of kindness/politeness or if you listen to them tell their stories - that means you want to have sex.

but sexual harrassment - that is different. that is when one person is in some position of power over you and uses it to intimidate you - sex as a weapon.

and oh yes, some women at work they don't watch what they saying neither. like it is not a good idea to complain about your man to some other man. and some women just can NOT never seem to learn that you can NOT talk to some man like he's your GIRLfrend. because he is NOT. no matter how he listens what he hear is not what you said.

- smile
but you know that. you understand us poor creatures bettern most men. and i know you teach your own grrrls that and i know you done a good job with them

I think what he's saying is that it's too scary to contemplate what would happen if a misread signal resulted in a broken work relationship, or worse.

Sure, but lisa wasn't talking about work. She was talking about personal relationships, the sort of place in which it's acceptable to signal clearly that you'd like some sex, please.

matt is right

too many people don't want the rules to be different for different places. but they just ARE

and oh yes, some women at work they don't watch what they saying neither. like it is not a good idea to complain about your man to some other man.

Lots of women don't know/understand this.

All this arguing, and yet just about everyone seems to agree that real sexual harassment is bad, but that Sutcliffe wasn't guilty of it. At worst he was guilty of some form of cluelessness.

It's just a question of where you draw the line, and who gets to draw it, and what (if any) enforcement mechanism you set up.

And then it becomes a question of how you apply a broad general rule to a million cases that don't necessarily fall into some neat little category of obvious "harassment."

Where do you draw that line between Tailhook and Sutcliffe? What happens when you've got a case like Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill, both of whom had plausible stories and several witnesses? I believed Hill's story, but even now I'm not exactly sure whether that was based on anything other than a half-educated hunch. And it's not as if women aren't every bit as capable as men of lying without remorse.

All I'm saying is that it's easy to be "against" sexual harassment. But it's not so easy to define it. It's not so easy to formulate any general rule on how to deal with it that would apply fairly in all situations. And it's especially not easy to draw up a rule at a place like ESPN, where spontaneity and interplay are part of the job requirement, and where physical attractiveness is obviously a prime requirement for women.

Perhaps the only practical "solution" would be to require some sort of affirmative action for plain looking women, which would be one sure way to shut Sutcliffe up. I don't think he'd be making comments on the air about skirts if that were Hillary Clinton down there in the stands.

AG -

well, i got schooled on this by my brothers when i was 13. give me a list of rules. starting with

(straight) men look at females and the FIRST thought is f***able or NOT f***able. and trust me on this, ain't real too much ain't in the f***able department. now baby sister, if you DON'T wanna get f***ed, heres how to get put into the 3rd category which is - the not worth the trouble to try to get her to agree to f***

so I said - you mean guys just look at me and all they see is - to f*** or not to f*** that is the question?
don't they see me as a person?

so he sez - well they might could someday, they just gotta get the f*** part settled first. and most got a hard time with the f*** part. so to speak....

and some women just can NOT never seem to learn that you can NOT talk to some man like he's your GIRLfrend. because he is NOT. no matter how he listens what he hear is not what you said.

Who's listening?

and trust me on this, ain't real too much ain't in the f***able department.

Indeed. I always get a kick when guys debate whether or not they'd "hit" something. Especially younger guys. Because, truth is, it is the rare case where the woman in question wouldn't get "hit." The pertinent question is always: "Would I tell my friends about it if I hit that?"

And it's especially not easy to draw up a rule at a place like ESPN, where spontaneity and interplay are part of the job requirement, and where physical attractiveness is obviously a prime requirement for women.

Rule: Don't make comments on the air about other on-air talent's attractiveness, whether male, female, positive or negative.

There, that wasn't so hard.

I know the broadcast would have been so much less enjoyable if we hadn't been privy to the fascinating insight that the entire Cubs team was trying to sneak a peek at Erin's panties during batting practice, but I think we can try and enjoy the games regardless.

Sure, but lisa wasn't talking about work. She was talking about personal relationships, the sort of place in which it's acceptable to signal clearly that you'd like some sex, please.

Sure...but it's not like it doesn't happen at work, too. Not every female is level-headed enough to wait till everyone hits the bars after work. And even in a non-work situation, you can screw the pooch at work if you do the wrong thing to a colleague.

I guess this says a lot about me.

andy darling,

i got this feeling that the male demographic ESPN is trying to please would not really want to look at hillary clinton, especially if she got put in erin's outfits you know what i'm sayin

and sutcliff is too freaking old to be that clueless

bunyon Posted: June 13, 2008 at 12:06 PM (#2818476)

and some women just can NOT never seem to learn that you can NOT talk to some man like he's your GIRLfrend. because he is NOT. no matter how he listens what he hear is not what you said.

Who's listening?

- you (men) are the second you hear some woman say something like - sigh - my man, even viagra woodn't (hahahaha) help that boy. oh WHY is it so HARD (hahahhaha) to find a man who really LIKES to f*** if ONLY i could just find a man like that because i'm a cat in heat i surely am

(at least you pretty darn sure that is what you heard...)

And it's especially not easy to draw up a rule at a place like ESPN, where spontaneity and interplay are part of the job requirement, and where physical attractiveness is obviously a prime requirement for women.

Rule: Don't make comments on the air about other on-air talent's attractiveness, whether male, female, positive or negative.

There, that wasn't so hard.

I know the broadcast would have been so much less enjoyable if we hadn't been privy to the fascinating insight that the entire Cubs team was trying to sneak a peek at Erin's panties during batting practice, but I think we can try and enjoy the games regardless.

Such a rule wouldn't be the end of the world, but neither would the absence of such a rule. I'd be interested in seeing exactly how many people who were actually watching the game took the trouble to complain to ESPN about Sutcliffe's comments.

And of course the word "panties" wasn't used by Sutcliffe, and if that's not an important distinction, then I suppose when TV characters say "making whoopie" they might as well be saying "f*ck*ng."

andy darling,

i got this feeling that the male demographic ESPN is trying to please would not really want to look at hillary clinton, especially if she got put in erin's outfits you know what i'm sayin

My point exactly. If you want a very simple way of eliminating sexually suggestive comments, fire the babes and hire the hags.

And seriously, if I were a plain looking woman I'm not so sure I'd be all that thrilled about seeing the presence of all those female "role models" when the "role" they were hired to fill obviously has little to do with the formal job description. The issue of "lookism" in employment may be far too complicated to be dealt with by law, but I've sure encountered plenty of women over the years who've complained quite bitterly about it, and often with very good reason.

Such a rule wouldn't be the end of the world, but neither would the absence of such a rule.

Something needn't be "the end of the world" to be sensible, healthy, and right.

It isn't difficult to behave in public places, especially on public broadcasts, in a manner which demonstrates basic respect for the dignity of everyone as a person and not an object. This isn't draconian, and it doesn't unreasonably repress anyone's spirit or humor.

and andy,

to perfectly honest with you, i am wishing and hoping that next year ESPN hires brad ausmus to be a sideline reporter. and requires him to wear nothin but bike shorts and a SEG

mmmmmmmmmm

and replace all those ugly icky BBTN guys with some nice hot meat. i can give them some suggestions how to really increase female viewers i surely could

I suppose when TV characters say "making whoopie" they might as well be saying "f*ck*ng.

But really, Andy, would the Match Game had been so funny if Brett Somers (RIP) wrote "F*ck*ng" instead of "Making Whoopie"?

Johnny Jones rang his grandparent's door bell for 10 minutes before they answered. When they opened the door, Johnny asked what took so long. Grandpa Jones answered, "Sorry grandson, but we were busy ______."

That at least ties the "Old people #######" theme and use of proper expressions for the proper situation theme together.

Such a rule wouldn't be the end of the world, but neither would the absence of such a rule.

Something needn't be "the end of the world" to be sensible, healthy, and right.

It isn't difficult to behave in public places, especially on public broadcasts, in a manner which demonstrates basic respect for the dignity of everyone as a person and not an object. This isn't draconian, and it doesn't unreasonably repress anyone's spirit or humor.

Once again, no argument with the general proposition, but in this case I don't think that Sutcliffe went over the line---and I don't think that drawing such a line is as easy as some of you seem to think it is. There's obviously a difference of opinion about this.

------------

and andy,

to perfectly honest with you, i am wishing and hoping that next year ESPN hires brad ausmus to be a sideline reporter. and requires him to wear nothin but bike shorts and a SEG

mmmmmmmmmm

and replace all those ugly icky BBTN guys with some nice hot meat. i can give them some suggestions how to really increase female viewers i surely could

BBC, you say that as a joke, but in fact that might be a pretty good way of putting the issue in focus. There may be no other way of getting across to men what many women feel in situations like the one under dicussion, though the likely result would be the further American Idolization of yet one more segment of television.

andy,

you know me too well...

- thing is when it comes to sports too many men really REALLY think women don't know anything, and they get upset when it appears that some woman just might could know a LOT about sports. or, worst of all, moren THEY do. but they forgive it more if she is hot. but unfortunately, too many men also think that IF she hot THEN she couldn't know nothin bout sports

actually, i think it is true that if a woman is hot, too many guys don't think she knows nothin bout nothin (except sex)

- thing is when it comes to sports too many men really REALLY think women don't know anything, and they get upset when it appears that some woman just might could know a LOT about sports. or, worst of all, moren THEY do. but they forgive it more if she is hot. but unfortunately, too many men also think that IF she hot THEN she couldn't know nothin bout sports

actually, i think it is true that if a woman is hot, too many guys don't think she knows nothin bout nothin (except sex)

BBC, I wish you could meet my wife. She has exactly the same kind of take on the generic male mentality as you do. And since she suffers from few illusions on that score, she seldom gets too disillusioned or ticked off about it, either. I've seen her go all batty-eyed and con her way out of an 80 MPH speeding ticket with all the effort of a five year old girl asking Daddy for an ice cream cone, and then laugh about it for the rest of the way back home. Yeah, she knows what men are made of.

andy,

- grinning

my mama's best friend sez that God gave men big strong muscles, but He didn't give us grrrls none. so to even the score up a bit He gave us tears. Which is usually just as strong...

- not sure WHY it works, but it does...

well, i got schooled on this by my brothers when i was 13. give me a list of rules.

[List deleted; refer to #334]

Those are very sensible rules.

If you're a man looking for another man, it's a lot more complicated than that in normal settings at least.

But there are benefits. Gay bars are more easy going; rather than a situation where there are competitors and potential targets, there's (generally) nothing but potential targets.

Of course, there's also the risk of unwelcome attention from creeps. A straight man who ever wanted to know what it was like to be a woman could do worse than visit one of these places.

A straight man who ever wanted to know what it was like to be a woman could do worse than visit one of these places.

and if you REALLY want to know what it's like to be a woman...

nah, forget it. Too easy.

Of course, there's also the risk of unwelcome attention from creeps. A straight man who ever wanted to know what it was like to be a woman could do worse than visit one of these places.

Many years ago, I went on a business trip to Boston. I ended up having a meeting on Friday, and a different meeting on Monday, and it just made no sense to fly all the way across the country and back over the weekend, so the company was fine with me just spending the weekend in Boston.

Well, I was familiar with downtown Boston, but had never been out to Cape Cod, so I decided here was my chance to spend some time there. So on Saturday morning I drove my rented car out to Cape Cod, and spent a leisurely day enjoying the pleasant views. Finally by late afternoon I found myself way out at the end of the peninsula, in the charming old hamlet of Provincetown. I figured I'd find myself someplace to spend the night there, and then meander my way back to downtown on Sunday.

Well, suffice to say, I had been just a tad naive about what sort of place Provincetown was. But here I found myself, a single guy in his early 30s, walking around town looking for a nice place to have dinner ... let it be said I was getting plenty of lingering eyes, and meeting quite a few guys who were eager to get, well, really friendly.

I was able to politely rebuff all the generous offers, and everyone respected my "no thanks." But it was a truly strange situation, and I very definitely got the sensation of being sized up as a piece of meat (so to speak), and while to a certain extent it was amusing, it was also annoying and uncomfortable.

Oh sure Steve, you just "accidentally" ended up in Provincetown. I bet you just have a "wide" berth, too.

Trust me, when I told my East Coast co-workers about it, they laughed like hell at my expense. But, fact is, as a California boy I had had no idea that "P-town" was the Castro of Massachusetts.

Trust me, when I told my East Coast co-workers about it, they laughed like hell at my expense. But, fact is, as a California boy I had had no idea that "P-town" was the Castro of Massachusetts.

I'm just bustin chops. I only know about P-Town because a man I went to grad school with went there every summer.

A straight man who ever wanted to know what it was like to be a woman could do worse than visit one of these places.

Back when I'd just gotten out of college I was going out with a woman who had a two year old boy. The three of us went into a place called the "Georgetown Grill" on Wisconsin Avenue, having no idea what kind of place it was, and just looking for a bite to eat. It took us a few seconds to put two and two together, but if looks and under the breath comments could kill, they could have wiped out the entire block. We felt as if we'd just walked into the Shabazz Bakery in Harlem, except that these guys were all white.

Back when I'd just gotten out of college I was going out with a woman who had a two year old boy. The three of us went into a place called the "Georgetown Grill" on Wisconsin Avenue, having no idea what kind of place it was, and just looking for a bite to eat. It took us a few seconds to put two and two together, but if looks and under the breath comments could kill, they could have wiped out the entire block. We felt as if we'd just walked into the Shabazz Bakery in Harlem, except that these guys were all white.

I can top you all. My friends and I, while waiting for a movie to start at a theater in the East Village, innocently went into the first bar we saw. It was called Dick's. True story. I was very oblivious my first year or two in NYC.

But really, Andy, would the Match Game had been so funny if Brett Somers (RIP) wrote "F*ck*ng" instead of "Making Whoopie"?

Johnny Jones rang his grandparent's door bell for 10 minutes before they answered. When they opened the door, Johnny asked what took so long. Grandpa Jones answered, "Sorry grandson, but we were busy ______."

That "Grandpa Jones" scenario on The Match Game is absolutely ridiculous and would never happen in a million years.

The door would have been answered by "Old Man Periwinkle."

The door would have been answered by "Old Man Periwinkle."

Edmundo hangs his head in shame. How could he possibly forget "Old Man Periwinkle"?

bc --

I like to believe I'm above being led around like a dog on a chain, but I've still got the hots for a co-worker who flashed a thong like three years ago. Not to mention the one who was massaging her breasts because they were sore that day.

Those two don't get along at all, btw.

But the one who turned me on the most in the five years I've worked there did nothing more than flash me a smile at a low moment. And the sexiest thing she ever displayed was the fine hair running up and down her arms.

As far as knowing what it feels to be hit on men, I've had more than a few experiences in that regard. The first time I was in college and it freaked me out, but it hasn't bothered me much the other times it's happened. And the men have ranged in age from 20 to 65 (I don't want to do it with granpa, either).

I've always thought it funny when people state that gay men have no interest in their hetero counterparts.

It'd be like saying we have no interest in lesbians. We may not get any in that direction, but you never know.

I've always thought it funny when people state that gay men have no interest in their hetero counterparts.

There are straight men who assume that every gay man they happen across is sexually interested in them, and most of these straight men are incorrect.

However, it's fairly common for espeically younger gay guys to have crushes on straight male friends or acquaintances, and not know exactly how to deal with them. Experience has taught me that you're generally better off levelling with them as much as you can.

steve,

interesting story. but you are a good sized male so you CAN politely rebuff the offers.

- but theres been 2 times when i was not able to "politely rebuff" offers - once after getting told i WAS gonna give it up, i very quietly and coldly told the guy that after he finished (date) raping me, i wasn't going to no cops, i was gonna tell my brothers and they were gonna literally kill him. and he knew 2 of my brothers, so he settled for calling me a few names, but left me be

- other time, i was alone in the house, but the unexpected visitor he didn't reckon on barry lamar dog. or babe ruth dog or teddy b dog. because the time before he'd been invited, he hadn't seen no dogs around....

steve,

interesting story. but you are a good sized male so you CAN politely rebuff the offers.

Really? Because I heard through my P-Town friends that Steve is pretty small!

Da-dum! (Sorry Steve, couldn't resist! Have a good weekend everyone. May you have no cause to make the Papelbon face!)

oh yeah? well, i turned myself into a woman once! yeah, that's the ticket ... and i got hit on by ... brad p- ... uh, george clooney! yeah!!!

Really? Because I heard through my P-Town friends that Steve is pretty small!

Rim shot!

interesting story. but you are a good sized male so you CAN politely rebuff the offers.

In all seriousness, absolutely. Not only in that situation was there no reasonable likelihood of anyone physically forcing me to do something against my will, it also wasn't the workplace or other sort of social/political circumstance in which I was being hit on by someone in a position of power over me, with implicit or explicit threats of consequences of failure to submit.

The situation of men and women in the real world is not the same; we aren't just mirror images of one another. And the great majority of the workplace sexual harrassment situations are rooted some way in the unequal power/authority status between the man and the woman.

If anyone is still wondering about my objection to the narrator of "A&P;"....

Maybe I was too harsh on him. He's only 19 and the obnoxiousness of teenage boys is well sketched (minus the incisiveness as noted). Although if he's remembering the occurence years later I renew my objections.

It's just that he hates everyone in the story. From the woman who he suggests would have been burned in Salem (for correctly pointing out his mistake) to the customers he calls sheep (if it were present day he would be smugly calling people 'sheeple' on the internet). He's just completely devoid of empathy. He mocks and derides everyone for the way the carry themselves, their purchases ("what do these bums do with all that pineapple juice") and he makes obnoxious assumptions based on his shallow observations.

And his descriptions of the girls is just loathsome. I know it's suppose to capture the way teenage boys size-up girls, but at one point he wonders if girls actually have minds or if there's just a buzz like a bee in a jar. At that point I feel like the character crosses some sort of line between horny kid and weird sociopath.

alex,

which goes to show that youneverknow what is gonna interest any male.

especially the lesbian thing. i won't never understand why men would be attracted to a female who, by definition, thinks you are disgusting. i guess it is the turning thing fantasy or something.

p.s. - having sore breasts is not fun trust me on this

bbc- men aren't generally attracted to lesbians, they are attracted to women who do lesbian things among other dirty things.

Real lesbians wear flannel, thats bad.

alex,

which goes to show that youneverknow what is gonna interest any male.

especially the lesbian thing. i won't never understand why men would be attracted to a female who, by definition, thinks you are disgusting. i guess it is the turning thing fantasy or something.

The only problem with that is that it's not always 100% easy to tell whether or not they're lesbians. Some of the time, sure; and maybe even most of the time. But you never know, and the wish can impregnate many a thought.

All this shlt is there in the old limerick:

A lesbian who came from Khartoum,
Invited a pansy up to her room.
They argued all night,
About who had the right,
And about who would do what, and to whom....

And then there are women who use "lesbianism" as a dodge to avoid Men With Problems. I knew this totally klutzy guy who worked in the same bookstore with the actress Karen Allen, back in the early 70's before she hit it big in Hollywood. He followed her around for weeks on end, but when he finally got up the nerve to ask her out, she told him, "Sorry, Richie, I only like girls." And either he believed her, or he wanted to believe her, because he was still repeating the story with a straight face years later, in spite of the fact that there's never been a hint of a lesbian rumor about Karen Allen.

(Hmmmmm, wonder if that's how the Piazza rumor got started? ----- "Sorry, Ms. 'Got Shot Through The Forest And Hit Every Tree,' but I only like guys....")

red, here's the deal, afaic. this is really really good writing. the bees buzzing in a jar line is sublime. but that's the problem. updike has a character who's supposed to be problematic reeling off these neat turns of phrase. he's showing off. and really the utter existentialism of the boy's gesture is way out of his league as a character. so for me, the story is kind of a failure. i wasn't engaged.

andy,

like my mama sez, the only real way to avoid Men With Problems is to avoid Men With Problems

- grinning

and of course, use your brothers. and your mean lookin Dogsss...

funny you mentioned karen allen - she is one of the very few white women my husband thinks is hot.

and good thing she worked all those years ago - shed never get work THESE days - not skinny, not much boobs, not blond, not glam

Men can be turned on by any aspect of a woman's being, but a little t&a work almost every time.

I don't consider myself a breast man, but those episodes of Seinfeld about landing a tv pilot perfectly reflect the effect of cleavage upon the human male.

I just have to remember to be content with a glimpse and not stare into the sun too long.

The world revolves around physical attractiveness for men and women both. It always has; it always will. There have always been, and always will be, a segment of the majority that weren't born with the hot gene that resent this.

My statement was a bit rushed--sorry for the generalization. I should’ve said it can lead to sexual harassment. I’ve seen it happen twice and both time I backed the guy during the investigation since it sure looked like to me she was sending signals--several times one of them asked me what to do before he proceeded to um, explore the process.

Guy got canned both times--I felt responsible since I confirmed what he thought was happening.

Things are different up here in Canada--there was a time there was discussion (it may have even been on the books for time) that if a man and woman had consensual sex while intoxicated she could later charge him with rape.

I stand by my general point--unless she comes right out and propositions you--it’s simply safer to ignore the signals.

Best Regards

John

John, I've been around a few workplaces in my day, too, and you're right. But the reality of it 80% of the time is... well, we can state this the diplomatic way, or the brutally frank way.

DIPLOMATIC: Whether or not it's sexual harassment depends on whether she's receptive to your advances.

BRUTALLY FRANK: Sexual harassment is when an ugly guy wants some.

Things are different up here in Canada--there was a time there was discussion (it may have even been on the books for time) that if a man and woman had consensual sex while intoxicated she could later charge him with rape.

I've always wondered why there are so few Canadians.

besides, us females are real good at telling males we wanna have sex without having to actually come out and say - hello, would you please have sex with me... and it sure would help it some men weren't so **** dense that sometimes you practically HAVE to....

Man, ain't that the sad truth. To be 19 years old, and know what I know now.

In all sincerity, this has been one of the least enlightening and most self-absorbed threads in ages.

You all can consider yourselves honorary Lounge members.

john,

sexual harrassment shouldn't be some person asking another person if they'd like to have dinner sometimes. it has to do with intimidation. and actually, some woman asking a guy to have sex with her - that could be sexual harrassment too.

and unfortunately there really ARE too many females who do send out inappropriate signals. the 2 guys you talking about would have done better if they had asked another female about the female they propositioned

justin zeth,

hate to tell you but harrassment has got nothing to do with whether or not the guy is ugly. i worked as a waitress (briefly) and the manager was one of the hottest guys i've ever seen and he was a big time pusssy chaser - and he liked to let you know he was (shall we say) above you. it is all about the humiliating. and making sure someone else know you the one in control

retro dahlink,

i guess i had best stop calling you HOT LAIGGGSSS, hunh
hehhehheh


jc

in all sincerity, you are sometimes without question the biggest jerk on this site. you got, what six daughters. you best get ready to start talking to them about how to deal with sexuality. because - news flash - us females are just as sexual beings as you males. and even if you manage to force them into thinking that everything about boys/sex is bad and they should all be mother teresa, they STILL got to deal with males. and even if you put chastity belts on every daughter and lock her up in a convent, got news for you - females in a group sexually harrass other females in the group.

never mind

go back to the lounge and talking about golf and clever lines from that assswipe seinfeld

i wonder if they got porn of 60-70 or whatever year old grandmothers screwing delivery boys or something.

This seems to be a recurring motif in adult cinema. As a former pizza delivery guy, I was never once faced with a situation where I could either seduce or be seduced by a customer, whether male or female.

that assswipe seinfeld

Hey, what does poor Jerry have to do with any of this? Is it just because he dumped a girl for having manhands? Or for eating peas one at a time? Or because she once went out with Newman? How can anyone not like Jerry?

In all sincerity, this has been one of the least enlightening and most self-absorbed threads in ages.

You all can consider yourselves honorary Lounge members.

There goes the neighborhood!

You're not one of those guys who makes an appt to get it on, are you?

that assswipe seinfeld

I don't know why, but I have a great deal of affection for the a-holes of the world. To ask why I like kevin, despite his often boring, repetitive behavior patters, it's because I like people who wear their unattractive qualities on their sleeve.

Well, maybe it's like above, I don't read more subtle signals very well. I've missed many an opportunity for pleasure, not just sex, because of being too shy for my own good, too nice. But it's also because too much time is spent projecting a false image to others in order to be found socially acceptable.

I like Seinfeld because of Larry David -- Larry/George always gets it wrong in almost every social situation. Whenever I find myself in a awkward place, I try to do George's opposite thing.

Occasionally it works.

If I've come off as promoting a free-for-all in all social situations, that hasn't been my intent. Both personally and professionally, there needs to be a balance in behavior, and that's never going to be achieved by following a playbook. Rules of workplace behavior are a necessary evil, but there's no need to completely stifle one's natural lust for life in the workplace.

I probably should move on from this subject, but I need all the teenage girl tips I can get from someone who's been there.

How can anyone not like Jerry?

To me, I think this rhetorical question hints at the brilliance of the much-disliked finale. Those characters (and many of the people they associate with) are all, at some level, fundamentally ######## and perfectly embody the pettiness and frivolity of 1990s upper-middle class yuppiedom. It's easier to see that at the macro level than at the micro level, until the admittedly contrived series denoument arrives.

Even more disliked/ignored was the next-to-last ep, The Puerto Rican Day, and for much the same reason -- it shows the characters in a poor light, and it goes absolutely nowhere.

They won't even show it most of the time in syndication because of the burning of the PR flag -- I've only seen it once.

Jim - done.

AG,

- it is really hard to believe that males actually WANT to watch their granma doing it with 20 year old guys. i mean, you don't never see 20 year old guys with 60-70 year old women in real life. that i know of. i don't know what to say except that when it comes to sex, youneverknow

andy,

i think that seinfeld and his horrible, grotesque, hideous friends are not even a little bit funny and are basically everything that is wrong with human beings - and they don't have even one single good quality. they are not even stereotypes like archie bunker, who at least loves his wife and daughter - or clowns or something like that. they are just the human equivalent of partially rotting stinking garbage that will never completely decompose and will release toxic chemicals and pollute the planet forever. to put it mildly.

or should i say that it is harder for me to believe that any female would have anything whatever to do with jerry and friends than it is for me to believe that some 18-20 year old delivery boy would eagerly screw some 60-70 year old granma. then again, theres plenty of females who would happily screw hitler/stalin/pol pot if she got money/personal gain out of the deal. yep. this stuff goes both ways

alex,

i understand where you coming from. and as for teenage grrrls, what can i say except one of the things i am most grateful for is that i won't never have to be a teenage grrrl again. you should talk to john brattain about it because i can't really talk from the viewpoint of being a father of a teenage grrrl. and john is a man who understands Us People bettern most men
- smile
my daddy said that the reason God gives daughters to men is to get even with them for what they tried to do to every other man's daughter.
- i told him no, it's because a man NEEDS a female who is wise to his ass and loves him anyhow

a man NEEDS a female who is wise to his ass and loves him anyhow

I've found a few who love me, but none who want to live with me.

Some say there's a woman to blame, but I know it's my own damn fault.

As for Seinfeld, ultimately that is the point -- these people are hideously defective. Like Elaine states after she gets arrested for the dognapping, "What am I doing with my life"?

You have to be more careful mentioning the devil if you don't want another Seinfeld discussion to appear.

it is really hard to believe that males actually WANT to watch their granma doing it with 20 year old guys.

I was more referring to the "horny housewife gets it from the delivery boy" genre of straight porn, and its close cousin "Daddy seduces young stud delivery boy" genre of gay porn, generally.

In all sincerity, this has been one of the least enlightening and most self-absorbed threads in ages.

Damn shame everyone's held a gun to your head while demanding you read it.

Even more disliked/ignored was the next-to-last ep, The Puerto Rican Day, and for much the same reason -- it shows the characters in a poor light, and it goes absolutely nowhere.

They won't even show it most of the time in syndication because of the burning of the PR flag -- I've only seen it once.

Speak for yourself. Everyone I know loves that episode, and it shows here in DC at least twice a year. It's one of the best episodes of all, if for no other reason that it features the two "Who doesn't want to wear the ribbon?" guys, one of only three episodes in which they appear, and Kramer's fabulous "H.E. Pennypacker" role.

-----------------------------

andy,

i think that seinfeld and his horrible, grotesque, hideous friends are not even a little bit funny and are basically everything that is wrong with human beings - and they don't have even one single good quality. they are not even stereotypes like archie bunker, who at least loves his wife and daughter - or clowns or something like that.

But that's EXACTLY what makes Seinfeld so great: NO HUGS, NO LEARNING. Archie Bunker combined the loveable qualities of George Wallace with the completely fake qualities of a contrived TV character, right down to his phony Queens accent. That show was Hollywood liberalism at its goo-gooeyist worst. It's not that its premise was false---that bigots are more complicated than they may appear at first glance---it's just the contrived and simplistic way that they presented it.

Maybe it's just me, but I can laugh at just about anything or any type of humor---as long as it rings true. But absolutely nothing about AITF met that simple standard, whereas Seinfeld's characters are are only slightly exaggerated versions of people you meet every day, full of real personality and not just cartoon figures mouthing agitprop lines.

baseball chick,

That's definitely true, too, and I loathe and detest those guys, especially when they're supervisors/managers. But I've been around two specific situations where a guy got fired for sexual harassment for doing not much more than asking a coworker out. You really have to walk on eggshells. Not that I feel terrible for them or anything, but it happens.

alex,

loving a man is the easy part. it is the living with him every day that is tough. especially if you loved him in the first place.
- smile
sometimes it is tough to remember that he's just a human being, like you are. he just thinks different.
- and for some reason, we expect waaaaay too much from another human being just because you live with him
- and too often we are the most rudest, the most inconsiderate and the most disrespectful to the person we are supposed to love the most
- and too often us grrrls want everything to be "perfect" even there is no such thing andlife is something you gotta work at because you don't stay 20 years old for the rest of your life and you both change

-----------------

AG -
the horny housewife/male giving the delivery boy a, um, tip (ahem) is understandable fantasy because the people involved are not some young teenage boy/girl and your grandpa/granma. that was the part that i did NOT get

-----------------

andy,

i know what you are saying about archie and it is true that people are more complicated than a simple stereotype and it is true that most people fear/hate who is different, but sometimes even through the fake liberal stuff, something rang really true
- like the time gloria tells archie - i'm not your litle girl any more - and he gets upset and says - don't you NEVER say that. you will ALWAYS be my little goyl. (my daddy's favorite episode) because that is really how daddys feel. no matter what color. i mean here in america. obviously not in places where men happily sell their daughters into prostitution or marriage so as they can get some money
- like the time archie is talking to his jewish partner who explains why he won't have anything to do with his daughter or her husband (catholic) or their child. archie says to him - so what, she is your CHILD and she has your GRANDchild. and the partner says to archie - well, how would you feel if your daughter married someone you completely totally can not accept for anything he is - and archie looks at him and slowly says - she DID. but she still my daughter and joey still my grandson

- and that is not no feel good or phony - it rings true to all of us because your blood is your blood. and you reject your own child for who they love you tear out a huge hole in yourself. you gotta love your child even if you can't accept what they did

the seinfeld characters aren't exaggerated versions of people i meet every day, they are simply vicious, amoral, mean, spiteful - the only people i have ever known who are more horrible and disgusting than they are are child molesters and gangbangers. nothing i have seen them do/say or script lines i have read rings true. i don't think that there is anything even a little bit amusing/funny about the seinfeld characters. and i have even read a few scripts just to see if my opinion is being biased by my loathing the people reading the lines. and i didn't think the script was funny neither

- i actually don't know anyone in my life who watches that show or thinks it is funny.
shrug
maybe it is an ethnic thing???
- i asked my brother the playa who never met a (willing) pusssy he wouldn't eff about the female character and he said that she made roseann barr look hot (well, i'm translating, but not real too much)

You really have to walk on eggshells...

This is something I definitely miss about my last gig, where almost everyone I worked with was a fellow male. You don't (generally) have to have your guard up as much.

but AG,

it would be tough for them to nail (hahahha) a gay guy for sexually harrassing females. or do you mean you just don't like being around females at all?

it would be tough for them to nail (hahahha) a gay guy for sexually harrassing females

BBC,

A good portion of sexual harassment claims are based on hostile working environments and lack of equal opportunity. There is still the "lay with me or stand in the unemployment line" type of harrassment out there, but there are usually more claims the other way.

IIRC, AG is a lawyer, and its likely an acute fear for lawyers. This profession was for a very, very long time, closed to many women. It still has aspects of a good old boy network. While new graduates are pretty equal in men and women, the older generations are still practicing enough where most firms are going to be heavily gender imbalanced. I imagine many female attorneys rightly feel they have a harder road to success, and if they were to see any evidence of disparate treatment its likely to even be less well received than in many professions. Its probably even harder to differentiate legitimate humor from disparate treatment.

Buncha candy-assed university-indoctrinated and emasculated pansies in here.

Embarrassment to my gender? No. Goofy, yes. Awkward? A little. Men enjoy pretty women, and have for as long as they have existed. Why do we have to assign victimhood where there is no crime?

Buncha candy-assed university-indoctrinated and emasculated pansies in here

Well, you know what site you are on, at least.

BL

interesting

and pretty much it used to be that professions closed to women. back then we didn't have the intelligence. i guess. either that or the testicular fortitude.

so to speak...

i got absolutely no idea what it is like to work in law offices, but i suspect that males still make more money than females and get better cases.

i don't know what "hostile working environment" means legally

sigh

too much rudeness and intolerance. too much of the - one way my way - kind of thinking with waaaayyy too many people

John Peterson Posted: June 14, 2008 at 03:48 PM (#2819672)

Buncha candy-assed university-indoctrinated and emasculated pansies in here.

- more skinny assed than candy assed, unfortunately
- never been to a university except to watch a baseball game
- seriously doubt you can indoctrinate ANY woman and DEFINITELY not this one
- and, if you don't mind, i prefer irises to pansies
- as for emasculated, well, yeah, i DO have a vagina/uterus/ovaries, always did, always will. i say it LOUD i say it PROUD


Embarrassment to my gender? No. Goofy, yes. Awkward? A little. Men enjoy pretty women, and have for as long as they have existed. Why do we have to assign victimhood where there is no crime?

- so men enjoy pretty women. what of it. women enjoy pretty men too. what of it. there is no question of a CRIME
- it is a question of rudeness. it is a question that there is a time and place to say certain things and that good manners ARE NOT something bad

sexual harrassment is something different. and if you don't know that by now, you need to grow up

it would be tough for them to nail (hahahha) a gay guy for sexually harrassing females. or do you mean you just don't like being around females at all?

My unease is limited to workplace settings. For pretty much the reasons Backlasher enumerates.

I don't mean to bash all female attorneys as being hypersensitive or having a chip on their collective shoulder, but I tend not to be particularly fond of most of the women that I encounter in a professional context.

As for women generally, nah, I otherwise get along great with them, like most other gay guys. (Although I do tend toward the "guy's guy" end of the gay spectrum.)

the seinfeld characters aren't exaggerated versions of people i meet every day, they are simply vicious, amoral, mean, spiteful - the only people i have ever known who are more horrible and disgusting than they are are child molesters and gangbangers.

Jeez, bc, I didn't realize you'd led such a sheltered life. I think I've been pretty lucky, too, but I've known plenty of people who are infinitely worse human beings than the worst of the Seinfeld crew (George): people who are dumber, lazier, more venal, more petty, more narcisscistic, more narrowminded, in worse relationships with their parents, and so on. The one thing none of the Seinfeld characters are is gratuitously cruel or nasty, and you see people like that by the millions. Nothing at all that any of them do ever winds up hurting anyone but themselves---can you say that about everyone you know in life?

- i actually don't know anyone in my life who watches that show or thinks it is funny.
shrug
maybe it is an ethnic thing???

According to the stats I've seen, you may be right. But (anecdote alert) the most hardcore Seinfeld fan I've ever known---in fact, the one who got me hooked, since I never saw the show in first run---was a black manager I had at my bookstore. He loves it for the same reasons I do: the characters, especially the scores of secondary ones, like Puddy and the "ribbon" guys and the Soup Nazi and (of course) Crazy Joe Davola.

- i asked my brother the playa who never met a (willing) pusssy he wouldn't eff about the female character and he said that she made roseann barr look hot (well, i'm translating, but not real too much)

No insult to your brother, but if he really thinks that, he needs lasik, and he needs it badly. In cross-ethnic terms, that's as incomprehensible as favoring Aretha Franklin over a thirtysomething version of Michelle Obama. Though to each his own, and there's no accounting for taste, maybe mine included.

andy,

not a sheltered life, fer SHER. what i mean is i don't know people who i can't find one SINGLE good thing about them - except for child molesters/gangbangers. and the seinfeld characters ARE gratuitously vicious and nasty. spiteful, hateful people - not funny. not to me anyhow.

i don't know about "secondary characters" because i disremember any of them. i remember seinfeld, the short fat screeching pig who is always out of breath, the guy who looks/talks like he just escaped from the mental hospital for being an axe murderer and the ugly woman who looks like the wicked witch of the west without green makeup.

as for the female character, no she isn't fat, but she is THE ugliest witchiest ##### i have ever seen on tv. no contest. and that is saying something because most female characters on tv these days are serious b!tches. and as for playa needing lasix, well i remember i had a discussion about her physical appearance with a couple of primates a few years back and so after that i asked a couple of males i know what they think of her appearance - and they basically all said she (polite translation) ugly as sin (and no i didn't bother to ask if they would hit that because i know only too well that most men will hit darn near anything that will agree to get hit, especially the closer it gets to closin time)

- grinning
and yeah i know from all my years here listening to all yall males talk about various females you think are hot/not hot is that one man's sow is another man's hottie...

thank goodness or most all of us wouldn't have partners...

Well, I guess that Julia Louis-Dreyfuss is safe from Lisa's drunken lecherous advances. (smile)

sexual harrassment shouldn't be some person asking another person if they'd like to have dinner sometimes. it has to do with intimidation. and actually, some woman asking a guy to have sex with her - that could be sexual harrassment too.

It is a lot different in Canada lisa--for all intents and purposes sexual harassment is when the woman says it is--yes, asking a woman out to supper can result in being charged with sexual harassment in the workplace up here. If the woman says she felt threatened (as broadly defined) by the invitation then the guy can generally refer to his job in the past tense.

The woman gets a lot of latitude in defining what the male's actions are--I guess it's a different environment in the states but I knew a lot of guys (when I was still a younger buck) that felt they were taking huge risks with their reputations and jobs when approaching women--a simple polite dinner invitation, or picking up a girl at the bar who is all hot and ready to go put a lot of guys into a bad place.

It was almost a Salem-like attitude for awhile where a guy had to prove his innocence if a woman decided that a situation wasn't to her liking. I don't know what it is like now since I've been out of that scene for awhile but make no mistake--as I said in my initial post--guess wrong on a woman's signals and you could be in a lot of non-Jacuzzi hot water. Yes, it was possible for a woman to say yes and later claim she meant no and the guy was SOL.

As I've stated on other occasions--if anything happens between my wife and myself I'm done with the fairer sex. It's too much of a minefield for my tastes and I know a lot of casualties--decent people whose lives and jobs were forever changed because they didn't know what the rules du jour were.

Best Regards

John

andy,

i didn't know her name so i had to go look her up (shudder)

- grinning

IF i was gonna go to the Other Side, she be about last on my list.
but even if i could look at some woman and say - i like her, i just couldn't - shall we say - get it up for her

john

sorry for a dumb question. but Up There, how on earth is a male supposed to ask a female out? is the female only supposed to ask the male out? can he accuse HER of sexual harrassment?

are you supposed to only go thru match.com?

what do your daughters do? (or do you got em locked in a convent???) giggle

but Up There, how on earth is a male supposed to ask a female out?

First you get a moose, a pound of back bacon, some beer and ...well by then you are just happy to turn on the hockey game.

It is a lot different in Canada lisa--for all intents and purposes sexual harassment is when the woman says it is--yes, asking a woman out to supper can result in being charged with sexual harassment in the workplace up here.

Final dispositions in employment cases tend to be pretty fair in the Commonwealth. Nevertheless, I'm sure that you can find plenty of people to tell you horror stories about how they were wronged. Having seen some of the actual circumstances and listening to the same stories, I do recognize that there is a gap between the story told and the actual events.

I gather that if this site had more of a female population, you would also here stories about how "their friend was harrassed and the employer didn't do anything about it." Like any system of grievances, both sides are going to feel like they got railroaded.

What is difficult for defendants is time and cost. YOu can move from the MCAD to superior court rather rapidly, and dealing with all the procedural steps requires time and knowledge. That usually presses up your bill. Very often its going to be much, much cheaper to settle than wait and pay for the defense for a favorable adjudication. If its a close situation, there is really no economic contest. The upside for individuals is that the company is usually going to be jointly and severally liable for their employee's conduct; so the settlement is going to be made by the employer.

Whether your fired or subject to workplace discipline is a different story. In those situations, you aren't going to have much opportunity to have a fair case decided by a trained judge. Then, if you are rank and file and without a union, you just get an HR employee making the decision. (Another argument for wanting a union--- you don't want an HR person deciding your fate---you do want some REAL method of due process)

BL

- grinning

sounds like the females gonna be settling for moose, bacon and beer too seeing as how the male humans won't go near them

and you dead right about how there are not females here to talk about their stories of males would not take a polite - no thank you for an answer. and i have heard all KINDS of stories from my mama's friends too

- to be honest i feel grateful that i have had only 2, um, unpleasant (ahem) confrontations with males

Hey, BBC, I just talked to The Captain, and he said that the Yanks had read those nasty comments you wrote about Elaine while waiting for the game to start, and vowed vengeance in her good name against your beloved Astros.

Looks like they took it personally, so keep up the slanders and the disrespect....

are you supposed to only go thru match.com?

If you're smart. Then again, I'm the world's leading proponent of online dating.

If you're smart. Then again, I'm the world's leading proponent of online dating.

Even more so than that creepy older guy on the eHarmony commercials?