Fielder doesn't "Field" his poistion poorly. I'd say he's about average overall.

And I'd be surprised if Wright is +20 with the glove. My eyes say that his range is decently above average, maybe 5-10 runs, and he gives at least half of that away with his throwing errors.

Fielder doesn't "Field" his poistion poorly. I'd say he's about average overall.

I don't know, Harvey says he's pretty bad out there.

....the main thing in Rollins' candidacy is this stupid 20-20-20-20 thing. Who cares? Can we talk about how the guy walks less than half as often as Wright, while having a lower slugging percentage and getting destroyed in BA, rather than his possible inclusion in some gimmicky club?

Rollins is gunning for the 40-20-30-40 club. Get your stupid gimmicky clubs right Mr. Vegas. He does lead the league in Runs by a wide margin, so he does have that going for him.

I don't know, Harvey says he's pretty bad out there.

No, I agree with Joe. He's not spectacular, but he's not awful. Average sounds about right.

While I agree Troy is a fine defensive player, I continue to wonder if there isn't a "park effect" taking place in Colorado with respect to defensive metrics. Multiple players have gone through Colorado and been considered very good if not superlative defensive players only to be deemed good once they left.

Just curious. Has anyone examined the "park effect" of Coors on middle infielders? The strongest one I recall is Eric Young. But there were others as well.

In his statistical comparison of Wright and Rollins, he included RBIs but omitted Runs. Not that either is the ideal stat for determining MVP, but the only reason I can think of for the omission is to distort the comparison (which wasn't necessary given the other numbers).

Multiple players have gone through Colorado and been considered very good if not superlative defensive players only to be deemed good once they left.

Doesn't that mostly (if not exclusively, of course, I don't know exactly who you're thinking of)apply to OFers?

Prince doesn't have very good hands and can't adjust quickly. These issues are compounded on playing on the same infield as Braun and Weeks who throw in the general direction of first base at best.

But to clarify he is below average. He is not Frank Thomas bad or some such. And I discount anyone who relies on a metric for that assessment. Frankly, I have had my fill with these defensive metrics if only because the folks using them don't know what the h*ll they are talking about half the time.

Such as the individuals claiming that Ryan Braun is a net negative to Milwaukee because of his defense. As if the lad were Jim Ray Hart or some such nonsense..................

So Coors hitters aren't eligible because the park makes it easy to have great hitting statistics, and Coors fielders aren't eligible because the park makes it easy to have great fielding statistics.

That's all well and good, but I expect all of these people to then turn around and support Jeff Francis for the Cy Young Award, and Manny Corpas for Fireman of the Year.

Cowboy:

Well, I did mention this: The strongest one I recall is Eric Young.

Eric Young in 1997(?) had some pretty impressive totals and did anyone regard Eric as a great defensive second baseman?

Juan Uribe had a pretty mpressive defensive season by appearance in 2002. Does he wow folks in Chicago?

I'm just asking. Hasn't anyone else noticed this?

Juan Uribe had a pretty impressive defensive season by appearance in 2002. Does he wow folks in Chicago?

Yes. Juan Uribe has put up back-to-back OPS+'s of 74 with OBPs of .257 in 2006 and .281 in 2007. He still has a job on a major-league team, much less a starting spot, because he's a "wow" defender.

Harvey,

You did mention Eric Young, my reading comprehension today isn't so sharp.

Uribe IIRC, has wowed White Sox fans with his D. Neifi was another guy whose D translated from Coors. I don't really know enough about Eric Young.

Well, Tulowitzki is a damn good fielder. For the first few months of the season I was giddy that my favorite player (Jose Reyes) was so improved defensively, and looked like he might win a very deserved GG award. And then I saw Tulowitzki play and thought, despite all the fanboy leanings I had - "Wow, this guy might be even better."

Kiko/Cowboy:

Ok, I thought they were good. But if you look at the raw totals they look even better. So isn't that some kind of park effect? Because none of them have matched those numbers in other places.

Again, I thought someone might have done a study on this. As I find it interesting............

PF:

I agree that Troy is very good. I am trying ascertain whether the park isn't giving someone additional opportunities to be good.

If that makes any sense...........

I've often wondered how bad Jim Ray Hart looked at third base. I know his numbers are terrible, but he was he in person every bit as ugly as the numbers? Or worse?

Greg:

A train wreck. Bobby Bonilla with one hand behind his back. It was shocking that anyone looked at that guy and said, "Third base".

But I am sure Steve Treder could explain the thinking. And who knows the level of impact Jim's drinking had on the situation.

Millwakee's first baseman is the isn't merely 'good' with the glove; he's the Prince of Fielders. </witty pun>

How long wil these WPAphiles be allowed to peddle their snake oil to the intelligent baseball community? How many times must WPA be exposed as meaningless, empty, ridiculous, nonsensical garbage before we stop using it as an evaluative tool?

In a just world, WPA would be consigned to the dustbin with creationism. And yet, like creationism, it endures...and even flourishes.

comment edited for the sake of civility.

agree with harvey's assessment of prince. prince would look at LOT better if he got better throws. braun throws better to scond then first. weeks - oh dear. hardy is decent.

if i was running the brewers i would put weeks in center and bill hall at second. but as an astros fan i prefer things the way they are.

Uribe should have won the gold glove in 2005. Defensive metrics put him on top of the AL and then he had some spectacular plays to finish up the world series. Since then his conditioning hasn't been so good, and he's regressed as a fielder.

He'd make a perfect Orioles SS if they do trade Tejada. Right now he looks a lot like the guy they had before Tejada, Deivi Cruz.

Wait, Tulo is an MVP candidate? Since when? This guy must be conflating MVP and ROY.

How exaclty does Vlad have a higher offensive WPA than Prince Fielder? Let me guess, a whole lot of counting some runs more than others, against all the logic of baseball analysis.

"Jeepers, Vlad knocked in those runs in the NINTH inning! THAT MEANS THEY'RE....like SUPER DUPER SPECIAL AWESOME RUNS! Lets count them five times more than those silly meaningless runs back in the first."
-typical WPA adherent

<crack of bat...crowd cheers A-Rod' second homer of the game> "Oh MAN; it's too bad A-Rod SCREWED himself out of some sweet sweet WPA goodness by hitting that grand slam back in the 4th inning! That TWO RUN HOMER in the bottom of the 8th WOULDA BEEN SUCH CLUTCH WPA INFLATING GOODNESS if the YAnkees were still losing instead of up by 4. What a choke artist loser! He should be killed." -typical WPA lemming


why do I feel like Jack Chick?

Temple:

Nope. If you listen to folks who use WARP or any means of including defensive metrics into the equation Troy's defense is so outstanding that he is deemed one of the best players in the NL.

The official MVP award is quite different than this- it focuses mainly on batting average and RBIs, while ignoring useful batting statistics...

This line is also funny for so many reasons....

I'm a Brewers fan living in Chicago so I don't get to watch as many games as Harveys and a few others on this board, but I have MLB-TV and watch them a fair amount. And to me, Prince looks pretty terrible at first. He has good hands and is fine on throws to first, but has absolutely no range. I don't know if I've seen him dive and catch a ball all year. Dive and miss, sure, all the time...

Nope. If you listen to folks who use WARP or any means of including defensive metrics into the equation Troy's defense is so outstanding that he is deemed one of the best players in the NL.

Wow, I hadn't looked at his BP player card in a while and I didn't realize they had him at 27 runs above average in the field (which is insane, even though I acknowledge he is a fantastic defensive SS). Still his offensive numbers are so far below what is expected of MVP level performance I'm surprised he's in the conversation.

109 OPS+
.278 EQA
.264 GPA
5th amongst NL SS's in RC (6th in RC/G)

Wow, I hadn't looked at his BP player card in a while and I didn't realize they had him at 27 runs above average in the field (which is insane, even though I acknowledge he is a fantastic defensive SS).

BPro's defensive numbers are basically worthless.

He is second all-time in home runs by a rookie shortstop. But again, that's among rookies, and it's not like it's a hallowed record (Nomar Garciaparra).

BPro's defensive numbers are basically worthless.

I'm in agreement with this, but I was just surprised to see him having a > 10 WARP season until I realized it was basically bolstered by a ridiculously high defensive rating.

WARP also takes Ryan Braun's season and makes it rather ordinary. And while Ryan is challenged so far at third base he is not historically bad as some would have folks believe.

If you deflate the defensive numbers the two players are basically even. And I accept that contention. So it's a coin flip for NL ROY depending on what the voter perceives as being more valuable. Offense or defense.

Watching Braun last night, he seems to be making progress. On some throws he would have hurried and sent into the dugout earlier in the season, he visibly checked himself and made sure the throw was both accurate and in time. I think he's making more than acceptable progress, especially in light of his bat. Weeks, I'm not so sure--I remain in favor of swapping him with Hall and most likely getting better production out of both of them (though I guess I don't have much idea what his arm would look like on throws to the infield).

Prince unsurprisingly has zero range beyond where he happens to be standing when a ball is hit, but what's in his range he handles okay. I'm not horrified by him or anything--pretty standard issue first baseman in the modern era, by my accounting.

Polish:

Agreed on all points. I just wish Prince could adjust on throws a tad better. That's a pretty valuable skill with the SCUD launchers at second and third...................

Jim Ray Hart

Harv, I didn't get to see much of Hart. Was he that much worse than Dick Allen at 3B? I was pretty young then and remember Allen as agile for a big guy, but with a scattershot arm. I didn't much think about range and soft hands in those days so I have no opinion on that.

Edmund:

Allen was very quick with decent hands. He was more than adequate at third base until he hurt his arm and really couldn't make the throw across.

Hart was just all around bad. I cannot think of a single part of his defense where one could say that was "acceptable". Except that he was out there. He fulfilled the expectation that someone stand in the vicinity of third base.

Still his offensive numbers are so far below what is expected of MVP level performance I'm surprised he's in the conversation.

This is the first MVP conversation I've ever seen in which Tulowitzki was included.

You know, if someone could improve on WARP or Win Shares, and that new number got added to B-R.com player pages - nobody would ever care about those other numbers again.

Harv, I think the reasont that fielder is considered average is that defense at first has gotten so devalued that there are fewer good ones out there anymore. So by your observation he is poor when compared to people you have seen over the years that were considered average (Tino Martinez? don't really know just throwing a name of a non-spectacular first baseman out there) The average first baseman nowadays is probably a poorer fielder than the average first baseman from 1997 or '87 and definately '77.

You know, if someone could improve on WARP or Win Shares, and that new number got added to B-R.com player pages - nobody would ever care about those other numbers again.

MGL has already done this, but he doesn't release the full listing of SLWTS to the public anymore.

Weekly Journalist is making me laugh. I wish you would have been at the SABR convention in the stats conversation where this kid stood up and said that he thought WPA is the bestest uberstat ever and has completed the search for that one stat which says it all.

Are SLWTS the best? For one thing, you need the PBP to get them, right? So there are no SLWTS for Ted Williams, which makes it less than ideal. And I will have a life-long distrust for UZR ever since it told me that Roger Cedeno was an average centerfielder in 2003.

It would almost be better if you just grouped players into different brackets of ability. Like strat-o-matic cards.

Adam Everett: +15 runs
Jose Reyes: +10 runs
JJ Hardy: +5 runs
Edgar Renteria: even
Felipe Lopez: -5 runs
Hanley Ramirez: -10 runs

You could use multiple years to determine which bracket your player fits into. I understand that it defeats the purpose of measuring one year's performance, and it smooths the outlying peaks or valleys that may have honestly occured and should be considered. But even the best fielding statistics give iffy and wacky results - iffy enough that they are often ignored. In my head, when I'm looking at VORP, I'll give a guy like Tulowitzki a +10 bonus for being a great fielder. And I think that those quick mental calculations might be more trustworthy than WIn Shares/SLWTS/WARP are.

How long wil these WPAphiles be allowed to peddle their snake oil to the intelligent baseball community? How many times must WPA be exposed as meaningless, empty, ridiculous, nonsensical garbage before we stop using it as an evaluative tool?

Hello baby? Let me introduce you to the bathwater... bye bye to both of you.

MGL has already done this, but he doesn't release the full listing of SLWTS to the public anymore.

A shame. I miss those bold, brilliant predictions, such as Jason Michaels being one of the 20 best players in the majors.

MGL has already done this, but he doesn't release the full listing of SLWTS to the public anymore.

The most important part of SLWTS is the UZR, and MGL has published a full list twice this year - once at about 1/4 of the season and once at the allstar break. He also published complete UZR from 2003-2006. I'm hoping he gives us a season-ending list, stay tuned to The Book Blog to see if he does.

Anyone with a spreadsheet can calculate the hitting parts of SLWTS. The only thing you'd be missing is the little stuff, like baserunning, outfield arms, and double plays - and there are people who publish the data you'd need for that even if you're not a retrosheet wiz.

Harvey's asks an interesting question on Colorado infielders. This year STATS ZR has Tulo at +17, Kaz Matsui at +15, and Jamey Carroll +8 at 2b and +1 at short. Last year Barmes and Carroll did very well. Looking at historical zone ratings however, this is a new phenomenon. From 1993 to 2005, no Rockie MI had a zone rating better than +6. Neifi Perez was +6, +3, +3, +0 from 1998 to 2001. Uribe was +1 total from 2001-2003. Eric Young's ratings were between average and -7. I think the current guys just happen to be really good, and deserve a ton of credit for the team's surprising performance this year.

Part of the reason the colorado defense might be having better results than one might expect is superior positioning. Though I don't know why tha would be showing up more recently than 03 or 04 as Wonderdog has been managing for a while now.

Thanks, Harvey. I wish I got to see Jim Ray play.

It'd be fun, if painful, to have a "bad fielder" compilation. Imagine 15 minutes straight of Ron Kittle in the outfield. I'd love to see Jim Ray's "lowlight" film.

By the way, Weekly Journalist, I agree with you on WPA. It's a confused stat promoted by confused people who are more interested in elegant formulas than in logic. (No, that isn't a get-your-head-out-of-the-spreadsheet statement; it's a this-formula-doesn't-measure-the-right-things statement.)

I'd just like to throw my hat in the "WPA sucks" ring. It's kind of interesting as a toy, but it's useless for any real discussion of worth.

This year STATS ZR has Tulo at +17, Kaz Matsui at +15, and Jamey Carroll +8 at 2b and +1 at short.

And with Helton at first, the Rockies are one average third baseman away from having a historically good defensive infield.

Kaz Matsui? Really?