No one wants to be defeated.

Went to an A's game the other night that was followed by fireworks to music by Funkadelic. No, really.

Makes sense, both Michael Jackson and the Indians wore one glove for no reason.

< / resurrects dusty 80s joke >

I thought they were going to honor "America," you know, Sister Golden Hair, Horse With No name, etc.

He was outstanding for them in 1998, and I think that he saved 40+ in '99, too. Good to see Mike get his due.

They've found a copy of that long-rumored recording of Michael Jackson singing "Sister Golden Hair"?

edit: I owe Worrierking a coke...

Went to an A's game the other night that was followed by fireworks to music by Funkadelic. No, really.

This is why the A's are awesome.

They should get Pepsi to sponsor the Michael Jackson fireworks display.

Is anybody else bothered that these teams are honoring a serial child-molester who remained free by the grace of the best lawyers money could buy?

Is anybody else bothered that these teams are honoring a serial child-molester who remained free by the grace of the best lawyers money could buy?

America and the world seem to have decided to look the other way on this point.

Is anybody else bothered that these teams are honoring a serial child-molester who remained free by the grace of the best lawyers money could buy?

Don't know, was he ever suspected of using 'roids?

You say molesting, I say petting.

That the teams are honoring him-somewhat. That it seems like +90% of the Nation is- very much so.

America and the world seem to have decided to look the other way on this point.

I bet Gary Glitter is envious.

You say molesting, I say petting.

This sounds like the nightly conversation I have with my girlfriend.

Why would Indians want to honor America? F all that colonialist ####!

Is anybody else bothered that these teams are honoring a serial child-molester who remained free by the grace of the best lawyers money could buy?

Still my favorite Norm McDonald joke, about the Lisa Marie Presley Michael Jackson divorce. A spokemand for the couple cited their irreconcilable differences : "She's more of a stay-at-home type, and he's more of a homosexual pedophile."

Still my favorite Norm McDonald joke, about the Lisa Marie Presley Michael Jackson divorce. A spokemand for the couple cited their irreconcilable differences : "She's more of a stay-at-home type, and he's more of a homosexual pedophile."

How can I wipe all this soda off my monitor?

Still my favorite Norm McDonald joke, about the Lisa Marie Presley Michael Jackson divorce. A spokemand for the couple cited their irreconcilable differences : "She's more of a stay-at-home type, and he's more of a homosexual pedophile."

Dont't forget this one: "Reports say that Michael Jackson's wife is now pregnant with the pop star's second child. Asked why he decided to become a father again so soon, Jackson explained that his 7-month-old son is starting to lose his looks."

In a way, I feel cheated. In 10 years or so I was hoping life would imitate art.

Both of those jokes are ridiculously funny.

I see that MJ was "honored by a CFL player after he scored a touchdown the other day.

Is anybody else bothered that these teams are honoring a serial child-molester who remained free by the grace of the best lawyers money could buy?

Not really. After a while you realize that the only real defense against sleazeball marketing gimmicks of all types is your friendly mute button.

Not really. After a while you realize that the only real defense against sleazeball marketing gimmicks of all types is your friendly mute button.

So true.

Not really. After a while you realize that the only real defense against sleazeball marketing gimmicks of all types is your friendly mute button.

No, the defense ought to be either a tacit or active boycott, or at least people speaking up. What if someone held a "Hitler Night", where everyone with a little black mustache got in for half-price (women too!)? At some point the bounds of decency are broken.

No, the defense ought to be either a tacit or active boycott, or at least people speaking up. What if someone held a "Hitler Night", where everyone with a little black mustache got in for half-price (women too!)? At some point the bounds of decency are broken.

And what if Hitler had his own tv show!

What if someone held a "Hitler Night", where everyone with a little black mustache got in for half-price (women too!)?

I predict someone a-hole will shave, then try and get in for half price. Then sue.

What if someone held a "Hitler Night", where everyone with a little black mustache got in for half-price (women too!)? At some point the bounds of decency are broken.

didn't the Red try that during the Schott years?

What if someone held a "Hitler Night", where everyone with a little black mustache got in for half-price (women too!)? At some point the bounds of decency are broken.

didn't the Red try that during the Schott years?

Your Cincinatti Reds; They're Hitleriffic! Get your season tickets now, before they're all bought up by the covetous jews!

Oh yeah, the Michael Jackson fawning is disgusting, but it just proves Cookie Monster's point. When you're a STAR, the rules are different.

Also, it's not a good idea to boycott music (or any other art) because of the immorality of the artist. There would not be much good stuff left after culling.

Is anybody else bothered that these teams are honoring a serial child-molester who remained free by the grace of the best lawyers money could buy?

Garvey never got more than 42% of the vote.

didn't the Red try that during the Schott years?

Marge never shaved her moustache to look like Hitler.

BTW- Jackson's last words in the ambulance....."Take me to Children's..."

Also, it's not a good idea to boycott music (or any other art) because of the immorality of the artist. There would not be much good stuff left after culling.

Immorality relating to self-destruction (over-use of drugs and alcohol) I can overlook; active sex lives I can over-look. Taking advantage of minors not fully able to understand the consequences of their actions or the motives of adults and buying off their family (which in essence means he bought the services for the use of a little boy, but didn't negotiate the price until afterwards) just seems over the line to me.

And what if Hitler had his own tv show!

I was expecting a Youtube clip of a Family Guy gag. Your joke was better.

No, the defense ought to be either a tacit or active boycott, or at least people speaking up. What if someone held a "Hitler Night", where everyone with a little black mustache got in for half-price (women too!)? At some point the bounds of decency are broken.

OK, how's this? I won't attend any more Indians games or buy any Michael Jackson CDs. That'll learn em.

Also, it's not a good idea to boycott music (or any other art) because of the immorality of the artist. There would not be much good stuff left after culling.

That's a more serious answer to the question at hand. There are a near infinite number of artists, writers and musicians who throughout the years have had throughly nasty political leanings of every possible variety, and yet if we started boycotting them, we'd be hurting nobody but ourselves.

And nobody's holding a "Hitler night," and what Michael Jackson allegedly did is not quite comparable to the crimes of the Third Reich.

And nobody's holding a "Hitler night," and what Michael Jackson allegedly did is not quite comparable to the crimes of the Third Reich.
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It is of course where we all are willing to draw our own lines. I find what Michael Jackson to have done to be morally repugnant, and I am disappointed that the people in the marketing department don't get to the same place. Some one else had a much better response earlier; the country has just decided to look the other way, placing me in a distinct minority.

And just as MJ didn't do what Hitler did, nor is supporting a political position the same as child molestation.

I was expecting a Youtube clip of a Family Guy gag. Your joke was better.

Steve Garvey doing comedy with Martin Mull and Fred Willard just blows my mind.

Is anybody else bothered that these teams are honoring a serial child-molester who remained free by the grace of the best lawyers money could buy?

Assuming by "best lawyers money could buy," you mean "right to jury trial," "presumption of innocence" and "government's burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt," then: No.

George Carlin's comments about Michael Jackson:

"He's the greatest entertainer in history. I say give him some kids and let him dance!"

Wow.

The CFL isn't all that thrilled with Arland Bruce's tribute to Michael Jackson in the Toronto Argos win in Hamilton.

The league is reviewing the Toronto receiver's TD celebration after scoring in Wednesday night's 30-17 victory.

Following a TD pass from Kerry Joseph that put Toronto ahead 6-0, Bruce removed his helmet, shoulder pads and uniform top and laid down in the end zone. Bruce said he was honoring the memory of Michael Jackson by pretending to be buried.

Bruce received two objectionable conduct penalties.

It is of course where we all are willing to draw our own lines. I find what Michael Jackson to have done to be morally repugnant, and I am disappointed that the people in the marketing department don't get to the same place. Some one else had a much better response earlier; the country has just decided to look the other way, placing me in a distinct minority.

If it's any consolation, I wouldn't have chosen to honor Jackson either. But then again I also wouldn't be dragging all those godawful singers up to home plate to torture the National Anthem, either. I suppose where we differ is that I've mostly become numbed to this sort of this, having had my sensibilities already bled halfway to death by a thousand small cuts. But I do see where you're coming from, and it's certainly an honorable position.

Assuming by "best lawyers money could buy," you mean "right to jury trial," "presumption of innocence" and "government's burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt," then: No.

I hate to start the flame war, but its funny how easily people's opinion of defendant's rights changes depending upon the person charged. I'm extrapolating but I'm guessing bfan was a fan of the Duke Lacrosse players getting "the best lawyers money could buy".

Sure, sure, MLB promotes prostate early awareness, and that makes them wonderful citizens. Michael Jackson does the exact same thing, and somehow HE'S the bad guy.

I hate to start the flame war, but its funny how easily people's opinion of defendant's rights changes depending upon the person charged. I'm extrapolating but I'm guessing bfan was a fan of the Duke Lacrosse players getting "the best lawyers money could buy".
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There was a great book written about the frame job done on the Duke lacrosse players, and the DA was sanctioned for his actions in the case. Duke University also paid settlement money to both the coach and the players. If there is a book out there on how Michael Jackson was framed here, then I missed it. If the DA was sanctioned for his actions in the MJ case, then I missed that, too. If Michael jackson received money from his accusers for being wrongly accused, I missed that, too.

This comparison is not even in the same universe.

Following a TD pass from Kerry Joseph that put Toronto ahead 6-0, Bruce removed his helmet, shoulder pads and uniform top and laid down in the end zone. Bruce said he was honoring the memory of Michael Jackson by pretending to be buried.

When I read "CFL Player tribute to Michael Jackson" above, I was expecting a moonwalk or maybe the dance from the Thriller video.

This is so much more awesome! Is there YouTube video? Are CFL games even televised?

Someone forwarded me a column from someone named Linda Stasi, who I thinks works for the NY Port that has some pretty strong comments in it on this topic. I think it is from today

Wow.

No kidding. I wasn't aware that the CFL season started already.

This is so much more awesome! Is there YouTube video? Are CFL games even televised?

Here you go

There are a near infinite number of artists, writers and musicians who throughout the years have had throughly nasty political leanings of every possible variety, and yet if we started boycotting them, we'd be hurting nobody but ourselves.

Although I agree with the general sentiment, I beg to differ mildly. There's so much creativity one can enjoy, that applying a filter based on politics or morality is one way to be selective. I knew a woman, of extreme socialist views and, like Andy, a veteran of civil rights politics, who refused to listen to any liturgical or sacred music. (I was trying to give away a second copy I had of a CD of Rossini's Stabat Mater and she turned it down on exactly those grounds.)

Most people apply filtering proactively, looking for stuff that is similar to things they already like. But a reactive filter can have similar effects.

What's that t-shirt slogan? 'So many books, so little time'?

Is anybody else bothered that these teams are honoring a serial child-molester who remained free by the grace of the best lawyers money could buy?

It doesn't really make sense to make strong comments on the results of a criminal trial unless one has taken the time to inform himself as to the factual and legal issues involved in the trial. I'm not, so I can't really comment on it.

I wonder if you are.

Sure, sure, MLB promotes prostate early awareness, and that makes them wonderful citizens. Michael Jackson does the exact same thing, and somehow HE'S the bad guy.

Gold.

SHould have offered the Helen Hayes CD instead.

What's that t-shirt slogan? 'So many books, so little time'?

To read them or burn them?

If the DA was sanctioned for his actions in the MJ case, then I missed that, too.

He was... by Michael Jackson!

This comparison is not even in the same universe.

And Hitler-MJ is?

I happen to agree with you about Jackson's legacy being... ummm... whitewashed, but, you're doing it wrong.

Is anybody else bothered that these teams are honoring a serial child-molester who remained free by the grace of the best lawyers money could buy?

It doesn't really make sense to make strong comments on the results of a criminal trial unless one has taken the time to inform himself as to the factual and legal issues involved in the trial. I'm not, so I can't really comment on it.

I'm with you, Ray. I'd be up in arms about Jackson if I was confident that he was a child molester. But I didn't follow his case closely at all; all I know is that he was tried and acquitted of the charges.

I am confident that he was about the weirdest guy on the planet, and there's no way in the world I'd have left my kid alone with him. But that's not the same thing as being confident in asserting that Jackson was a child molester. I do know that a jury who had 1,000 times more information about the situation than I do decided that he wasn't.

I do know that a jury who had 1,000 times more information about the situation than I do decided that he wasn't.

Well no, they decided that he wasn't legally guilty of molesting that individual child, which is different. But I agree with you.

Well no, they decided that he wasn't legally guilty of molesting that individual child, which is different.

Correct; I should have added "in this case." And AFAIK, that case is the only one about which any of us could possibly have any detailed knowledge.

I happen to agree with you about Jackson's legacy being... ummm... whitewashed

Just like his face.

There are a near infinite number of artists, writers and musicians who throughout the years have had throughly nasty political leanings of every possible variety, and yet if we started boycotting them, we'd be hurting nobody but ourselves.

I'm disappointed that, what with the thread already being Godwninned only 25 posts in, this remark did not lead to a Wagner discussion.

Leading to the inevitable "Wagner's music is not as bad as it sounds."

I'm with you, Ray. I'd be up in arms about Jackson if I was confident that he was a child molester. But I didn't follow his case closely at all; all I know is that he was tried and acquitted of the charges.

Yes. Bfan is going hard against the jury verdict, which is fine if he has reasons for it; I've been against plenty of verdicts -- the 1995 OJ verdict for one -- but I can cite up and down my reasons for that.

So far I've seen nothing of substance from bfan. Citing the fees of the lawyers involved is childish.

Nevertheless, I agree with you that Jackson appears to have had very serious mental health issues. I also think a lot of his music was great.

Just like his face.

Senator Gillibrand disapproves of this comment and finds it insensitive. She thinks Michael Jackson was a great artist and one of the most creative minds of our generation.

There are a near infinite number of artists, writers and musicians who throughout the years have had throughly nasty political leanings of every possible variety, and yet if we started boycotting them, we'd be hurting nobody but ourselves.

Although I agree with the general sentiment, I beg to differ mildly. There's so much creativity one can enjoy, that applying a filter based on politics or morality is one way to be selective. I knew a woman, of extreme socialist views and, like Andy, a veteran of civil rights politics, who refused to listen to any liturgical or sacred music. (I was trying to give away a second copy I had of a CD of Rossini's Stabat Mater and she turned it down on exactly those grounds.)

One of the reasons I got out of the "movement" part of the movement was because of people like that, who try to politicize everything. The line that separated some of them from their right wing counterparts was sometimes hard to discern. When I had my book shop I used to get the occasional complaint that I shouldn't be buying Mein Kampf, or Houston Stewart Chamberlain, as if Hitler or Chamberlain were getting a cut out of used book sales.

Not that people shouldn't be selective in their tastes, but to take a ridiculously extreme pair of examples, whenever I hear Deutschland Uber Alles in the original Haydn composition, or the Soviet National Anthem---an equally sublime melody---I don't find it impossible to entertain two simultaneous sentiments, one about the beauty of the music and the other about its dark historical connection. If the Holocaust Museum can use recordings of Nazi music and speeches to try to help us understand the appeal that Hitler had to millions of people, I don't see why us laypeople should be closing our eyes and ears to the same sort of thing. Ignorance is not strength.

Jackson appears to have had very serious mental health issues. I also think a lot of his music was great.

Yes and yes.

Jackson appears to have had very serious mental health issues. I also think a lot of his music was great.

Yes and yes.

And ditto and ditto.

I also think a lot of his music was great.

I never liked his music much, but I think he was obviously an extremely talented guy, which sort of got lost with all of his bizarre behavior. I hope people remember the former rather than the latter a bit more now that the guy is gone.

I'm just excited that after we had the usual "celebrities dying in threes" bit, Billy Mays decided to throw in the 4th for free...

too soon?

I'm just excited that after we had the usual "celebrities dying in threes" bit, Billy Mays decided to throw in the 4th for free...

Well, Ed McMahon is the real stretch; I think it's debatable whether he qualified as one of a "big three."

Maybe that's why Karl Malden stepped in for him.

Is anybody else bothered that these teams are honoring a serial child-molester who remained free by the grace of the best lawyers money could buy?

Think of them as celebrating his death, if that works for you.

Michael Jackson was acquitted. He did not get off because "he was famous" or because "he bought his way out of it". He was acquitted because the prosecution's case was weak, the family accusing him had a history of unscrupulous dealings & cash settlements, a lot of the people testifying against Jackson had extremely questionable credibility, and there was simply no evidence presented at any point in the trial that proved that Michael Jackson had ever molested any children.

I expect silly, misplaced moral outrage and proclamations of peoples' guilt (with no evidence to back it) on baseball-related sites. But usually, it's limited to steroids.

why are the Indians honoring him?--he played for the Browns

Well, Ed McMahon is the real stretch; I think it's debatable whether he qualified as one of a "big three."

to be part of the big 3, McMahon would have to be accompanied by Gene Rayburn & Hugh Downs

(Andy knows what this means)

(I was trying to give away a second copy I had of a CD of Rossini's Stabat Mater and she turned it down on exactly those grounds.)

My main question here would be the conductor and chorus, fra.

I might refuse on those grounds. ;-)

On a similar note, I've started a couple of chamber ensembles that would only do secular music. The preponderance of choir music is sacred, so I thought it would be fun to simply stick to secular stuff for the sheer oddness of it.

Well, Ed McMahon is the real stretch; I think it's debatable whether he qualified as one of a "big three."

If McMahon didn't, then surely Billy Mays didn't either.

Actually, out of Michael Jackson, Mays, McMahon and Farraw Fawcett, the outlier is Jackson. The rest of them just aren't in his league, celebrity or accomplishment wise, but do make a reasonable trio of folks with a certain level of celebrity without any extraordinary talent.

If McMahon didn't, then surely Billy Mays didn't either.

Yes; I was basically ignoring Mays.