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Saturday, November 07, 2009

Was Watching: Was Johnny Damon Better In Boston Or New York?

Röyksopping from one city to another to another to…

The numbers are pretty close here. In slightly less PA as a member of the Yankees, Damon has posted slightly better numbers in terms of RCAA, OWP, RC/G, and BPA (compared to when he was a member of the Red Sox). And, Johnny has one ring with each team – where he had a big post-season moment contributing towards it.

On the whole, I would say that Johnny Damon’s “time” in New York was just as good as it was while he was in Boston. His production was the same, and, in each stop, he was on one World Series championship team (during the four years he was there).

So, when you retrospectively think “Johnny Damon,” and assuming you don’t consider him to be a “Kansas City Royal” or “Oakland Athletic” (although I doubt anyone who consider the latter), should you first see him as a “Red Sox” or as a “Yankee”? Perhaps it depends on which side of the Boston/New York fence that you sit on? But, in any event, you cannot say that Damon’s career in Boston was better than it was (through 2009) in New York.

Johnny Damon’s “mark” in both towns was pretty much exactly the same.

Repoz Posted: November 07, 2009 at 06:25 PM | 43 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
Related News: General, Sabermetrics, Boston, Kansas City, NY Yankees, Oakland

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1. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: November 07, 2009 at 06:37 PM (#3381930)

His fielding should be factored in, I'd think. In that case, he was more valuable in Boston. Still, the contract worked out well for the Yanks.

2. dirk

Posted: November 07, 2009 at 06:42 PM (#3381936)

damon's success as a yankee is more proof that i don't know everything, (and may actually know nothing) about baseball.

3. PreservedFish Posted: November 07, 2009 at 06:47 PM (#3381939)

I think the beard tilts him towards Boston.

Seriously.

4. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot

Posted: November 07, 2009 at 06:50 PM (#3381942)

Damon's now a True Yankee, but in Red Sox Nation is he a true Red Sock?

5. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: November 07, 2009 at 06:52 PM (#3381944)

Player of the decade!

6. Srul Itza Posted: November 07, 2009 at 06:58 PM (#3381951)

I have to agree with Zuvella, both in terms of Johnny's declining skill, and the positional adjustment.

In Boston, Damon played 590 games in Center, and DH'd 4 times.

In New York, Damon only played 213 games in Center, 251 in Left Field, and DH'd 92 times.

His hitting advantage in New York was essentially his ability to take advantage of the short porch in right, which was more suited to his left handed swing.

I will say that, aside from his inability to stick in center, he held up much better than I had expected for the 4 years, and his play this year was outstanding, including 12 SB against 0 CS.

I expect the Yankees to seek to upgrade in left this year, with Bay and Holliday on the market. If so, I thank JD for his time and I hope he lands a good spot somewhere.

7. robinred

Posted: November 07, 2009 at 06:59 PM (#3381952)

Book deal in this guy's future--2004 Red Sox, 2009 Yankees, played for Beane, rep'd by Boras. How many guys have WS rings with both the Yankees and the Red Sox?

Babe Ruth
Johnny Damon
Hoyt? Dugan? Carl Mays?

8. Good cripple hitter Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:05 PM (#3381956)

Eric Hinske.

9. tl; dr (Voxter)

Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:06 PM (#3381957)

The only True Red Sox in history is Dom DiMaggio.

10. Swedish Chef Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:07 PM (#3381958)

Book deal in this guy's future

I though you needed to know the alphabet to write a book.

11. Mr. J. Penny Smoltzuzaka Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:16 PM (#3381965)

Perhaps it depends on which side of the Boston/New York fence that you sit on?

I sit on the Boston side of the fence. And as far as I am concerned - the Yankees can have all of him.

Book deal in this guy's future

I though you needed to know the alphabet to write a book.

Johnny "wrote" a book.

12. KingKaufman Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:38 PM (#3381979)

I don't sit on either side of the Boston New York fence, but from way out west, not close to either place, I think he's more memorable as a Red Sock. Even if his performance was similar, he was a comparatively more central figure on those Red Sox teams than he has been on these Yankees teams. He's an add-on in New York, a supporting player. In Boston, he was one of the main guys, in terms of celebrity and attention, which is more important than performance anyway when it comes to how someone will be remembered.

Twenty years from now it'll be: Johnny Damon. Red Sox. [Checks B-Ref brain implant app] Oh yeah, he played with the Yankees too, didn't he.

13. Swoboda is freedom Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:48 PM (#3381986)

damon's success as a yankee is more proof that i don't know everything, (and may actually know nothing) about baseball.

Your lesson is to listen to Scott Boras more. Everything he says is gospel.

14. TVerik, AKA Snoopy Snoopy Poop Dog Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:51 PM (#3381987)

If Bay departs, could Johnny be a Sox again?

While I agree with King, if he signs with either team this offseason, that could tilt the scales.

15. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:55 PM (#3381993)

Johnny Damon’s “mark” in both towns was pretty much exactly the same.

Yep, a skid mark...on the underwear of non Yankee/Sox America...

16. TVerik, AKA Snoopy Snoopy Poop Dog Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:56 PM (#3381994)

Didn't no less of a figure than A-Rod smack around Jeter years ago for hitting #2, instead of one of the "more important" lineup spots?

I think "leadoff hitter and plus center fielder" is greater than "#2 hitter and average left fielder".

17. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:57 PM (#3381995)

#7: How many guys have WS rings with both the Yankees and the Red Sox?
Babe Ruth
Johnny Damon
Hoyt? Dugan? Carl Mays?
#8: Eric Hinske.

Damon and Hinske are the two newbies. The 1918/1923 group is Joe Bush, Wally Schang, Everett Scott, Sam Jones, and Babe Ruth.

There are a few other players who were on both franchises' roster at some point during championship seasons, thus qualifying in the BB-REF page sense, but who didn't play in the Series for one of the teams. They include Mike Lowell, Carl Mays, Ramiro Mendoza, Herb Pennock, and the great Mike McNally. Mays pitched for the Yankees in the 1921 and '22 Series, but not 1923.

Waite Hoyt's first year with the Red Sox was 1919, so he's not on the list. Joe Dugan only played part of 1922 in Boston.

18. JoeHova Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:57 PM (#3381996)

I think of him as a Red Sox because of the time he got knocked unconscious in that playoff game against the A's. That's my most indelible memory of him because it was the longest I've seen someone lay motionless on a baseball diamond.

19. TVerik, AKA Snoopy Snoopy Poop Dog Posted: November 07, 2009 at 07:58 PM (#3381997)

Mendoza got a ring in 2004? Crazy.

20. Vogon Poet Posted: November 07, 2009 at 08:53 PM (#3382027)

FanGraphs has Damon worth 13.1 WAR with the Red Sox and 11.7 WAR with the Yankees. Sean Smith has him at 12.1 WAR with the Red Sox and 11.3 WAR with the Yankees, not including 2009.

21. Lassus: Posted: November 07, 2009 at 08:59 PM (#3382031)

I've already used the "Thank God you guys had Johnny Damon so you finally could win one" line on three Yankee fans. Two of them looked like they had swallowed a mole eating a cockroach, so that worked out.

22. Tripon Posted: November 07, 2009 at 09:02 PM (#3382033)

So if the Mets win it all next year, we can say its all because of Jeff Francoeur?

23. Morally Excellent Posted: November 07, 2009 at 09:17 PM (#3382038)

The only True Red Sox in history is Dom DiMaggio.

Curt Schilling

24. Kurt Posted: November 07, 2009 at 09:40 PM (#3382050)

I don't sit on either side of the Boston New York fence, but from way out west, not close to either place, I think he's more memorable as a Red Sock. Even if his performance was similar, he was a comparatively more central figure on those Red Sox teams than he has been on these Yankees teams. He's an add-on in New York, a supporting player. In Boston, he was one of the main guys, in terms of celebrity and attention, which is more important than performance anyway when it comes to how someone will be remembered.

Yes.

Twenty years from now it'll be: Johnny Damon. Red Sox.

Maybe.

[Checks B-Ref brain implant app] Oh yeah, he played with the Yankees too, didn't he.

No.

25. Charlie O Posted: November 07, 2009 at 10:03 PM (#3382061)

I still see him as a Kansas City Royal. That's where he made his first impression and that's where he played the longest.

26. rLr Is King Of The Romans And Above Grammar Posted: November 07, 2009 at 10:09 PM (#3382063)

I see him as a Bingo Long Traveling All Star and Motor King, but that's because I drink.

27. Crispix Attacks Posted: November 07, 2009 at 10:42 PM (#3382070)

Twenty years from now it'll be: Johnny Damon. Red Sox. [Checks B-Ref brain implant app] Oh yeah, he played with the Yankees too, didn't he.

After playing four seasons with the Red Sox and four seasons with the Yankees? I don't know about that.

There aren't many players that I just cannot associate with a single team. Kenny Lofton - Indians. David Justice - Braves. Roberto Alomar - Orioles. Johnny Damon - well, it will become clear after he retires.

28. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: November 07, 2009 at 11:37 PM (#3382086)

Damon is the only player who played for Oakland, KC, NYY, and Boston.

29. Flynn Posted: November 07, 2009 at 11:48 PM (#3382090)

That home run will live long in the memories of New England.

30. Mr. J. Penny Smoltzuzaka Posted: November 07, 2009 at 11:52 PM (#3382092)

Mendoza got a ring in 2004? Crazy.

Well, he did do his best to stop it from happening.

31. dangnewt Posted: November 08, 2009 at 12:41 AM (#3382101)

Damon's now a True Yankee, but in Red Sox Nation is he a true Red Sock?

I don't think that Boston is quite as hung up on the True______ thing as the Yankees. Damon was more important to the Sox as he was one of the Idiots that turned the psychology around for Boston fandom - we started to believe. Although it hurt when he went to the Yankees, it was a pretty simple case of the Yankees offering more money.

Sox fans like anyone who identifies themselves with the team and is still around the team - Tiant, Eck, Rice, Remy, Pesky, Andrews, Dave Roberts. Fisk is starting to come around more often. Yaz keeps to himself, he doesn't even go to the Hall of Fame inductions, but he went to Rice's.

Schilling is Schilling - all Sox fans love what he did in 2004. These days, I enjoy his baseball related commentary; his political views not so much as they tend toward conservative Republican talking points - for the Sox fans that lean that way, it might be enjoyable.

The Yankees can have Roger Clemons.

32. sunnyday2 Posted: November 08, 2009 at 12:59 AM (#3382109)

Don't know better, but more valuable? What #6 said.

WARP3 has him 18.1 in Boston, 18.1 in New York. Win Shares has it 92-80 Boston, even though his median OPS+ was 107.5 in Boston and 113 in New York. The difference is he played CF for Boston.

33. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot

Posted: November 08, 2009 at 01:11 AM (#3382114)

FWIW the Yankees didn't give out rings until their second championship in 1927. In 1923 they awarded engraved watches instead. And by the end of his 16-championship run as a player and a coach, they were giving Crosetti engraved shotguns.

34. Bitter Calculus Instructor Posted: November 08, 2009 at 02:15 AM (#3382132)

Even if Damon re-signs and spends more overall time in NY, I think I'll remember him more for being a Red Sock. While with the Red Sox, he got a ton of media attention, much of it just for his beard. While with the Yankees, he was just another guy on the team, a supporting player who was pretty productive.

35. Rough Carrigan

Posted: November 08, 2009 at 02:20 AM (#3382133)

Johnny "wrote" a book.

Ah yes, the tome in which he said he knew he'd be offered more money by the yankees but wasn't going to take it.

He didn't even have the good humor to use the Charles Barkley quote and say that his own autobiography had misquoted him.

36. Long-Time Fan Posted: November 08, 2009 at 05:08 AM (#3382180)

Can anybody here tell me when Damon's throwing became laughable. I remember him as a good centerfielder with the Royals, A's, and Red Sox, with no discernable throwing impediment.

37. Phil Coorey, You Won't Posted: November 08, 2009 at 05:26 AM (#3382186)

It was always bad in Boston - though for a primer meet up in 2004 at Baltimore we saw him throw a runner out at the plate!!!

38. Lassus: Posted: November 08, 2009 at 07:18 AM (#3382200)

From where, shortstop?

39. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: November 08, 2009 at 07:45 AM (#3382203)

He was throwing out the first pitch and gunned down Jack Cust still trying to score.

Twenty years from now it'll be: Johnny Damon. Red Sox. [Checks B-Ref brain implant app] Oh yeah, he played with the Yankees too, didn't he.

I would totally agree with this, except that he had (after Utley's home run barrage) probably the most memorable moment in this World Series. I think it's possible in 20 years that I will think of this Series as "The Damon Steal Series."

40. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Moral Idiot

Posted: November 08, 2009 at 11:49 AM (#3382221)

Can anybody here tell me when Damon's throwing became laughable

"Looks like Jesus, acts like Judas, throws like Mary" may have been what set his reputation in stone in that regard. And it was almost cruel for the Red Sox (and the Yankees, before Melky arrived) to stick him in CF---but then what else could they have done with both Manny and Ortiz also in the lineup?

41. sunnyday2 Posted: November 08, 2009 at 02:12 PM (#3382245)

Looking up his record made me think back to a KC Royals OF including Damon and Jermaine Dye. What might have been.

42. Lassus: Posted: November 08, 2009 at 02:23 PM (#3382248)

Looking up his record made me think back to a KC Royals OF including Damon and Jermaine Dye. What might have been.

That was pre-Beltran, or...? They've had a lot of good people bolt.

43. Jeff K. Posted: November 08, 2009 at 02:31 PM (#3382250)

So if the Mets win it all next year, we can say its all because of Jeff Francoeur?

Sure, why not? Also, if David Duke wins the 2012 Presidential election, you can say its all because of Genghis Khan.

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Was Watching: Was Johnny Damon Better In Boston Or New York?

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