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Well, he really shouldn't (be facing a close primary). Kirk is really the most viable statewide Republican in Illinois - and was immediately gonna be the GOP frontrunner whether he chose Governor or Senate.
To be perfectly honest, there's a significantly better than non-zero chance I'd consider voting for him for Senate.... but he's already shooting himself in the foot (for my little old vote, at least) by coming out against HCR.
Had he decided to run for governor - I honestly would have given him a 50/50 shot at my vote.
Pat Quinn isn't Blagojevich - but Quinn simply doesn't have the gravitas to lead the state. He's long been known as too much of a crazy gadfly, and is simply ill-suited to be in the big chair... and I'm not a big fan of Dan Hynes at all.
Interesting note on the IL Gov's race... I went to college and nominally know one of the GOP candidates (Dan Proft) and one of my good friends is actually his campaign manager. I won't vote for him personally -- he's much too far right for me --- but I can vouch for the fact that he doesn't dine on children or heat his home by burning puppies and kittens. He's pretty much a long shot, but I expect he'll be included in the debates, etc.
Lieberman is completely different case. Connecticut in no way resembles Montana politically. And while I'd love for every Dem in Congress to solid blue, I'm happy with blue Dems from blue state/districts, and I'll settle for purple Dems in purple districts.
The Lieberman analysis also ignores the fact that since 2000, he hasn't been your typical Senator. He's all over the talk show circuit. He wanted to sell himself as the voice of the Democratic party while taking positions far to the right of the Democrats. I'd like him out of the Senate completely, but I'd settle for kicking him out the caucus. When he was a Democrat, he was bad for the party, because he played the "Fox News Democrat" that constantly sold his side out. He's free to believe in and vote for whatever he wants to believe in and vote for. But he shouldn't label himself a Democrat if he's not going to act like a Democrat, all while representing a relatively liberal state.
But he doesn't take positions far to the right of the Democrats, generally speaking (there are some prominent exceptions coughIraqcough of course). Not even if you limit the issue to post-2000. No, he's not a far-left Dem like some New England politicians, but he's not Ben Nelson, either.
Sure - but takes great glee in poking his finger in the eye of Dems when he does take those opposing positions.
Part of that is certainly the egotism common across aisles in the chambers, but I also think he's just a vindictive SOB that has decided to make his life's mission to pick fights with all the dirty ####### hippies that dared challenge him on Iraq.
It's worth noting, too, on HCR -- he's gone further than even Nelson, Lincoln, Conrad, Baucus, or any other nominal member of the caucus (i.e., threatening not just to vote against - but join a filibuster)... which is pretty outrageous considering he campaigned in 2006 on HCR, and while I'm too lazy to dig it up, I'm fairly sure he was pro-what-has-become-known-now as the public option.
He was He's generally solid on abortion, labor issues, and gun control, only one of which is ever actually important from a federal legislative standpoint (people love to make noise about gun control and abortion, but it's rarely important federally). Personally, I'm willing to give up his support on those issues to get him out of the caucus. He's quite far to the right of his constituency.
Why would it?
I wondered about this. The two most visible Republicans to come out of NY in recent years are Pataki and Giuliani, and they're both on the liberal end of the gun control-abortion-SSM hot button issues. I'm guessing that New York Republicans, as a reflection of their electorate, are generally to the left of Republicans nationally. Obama carried NY-23 by something like 52-47, so even though there's a Republican majority there, it's not as if we're talking about a hard-right district.
Two, Colin Powell? Really? That's what you're going with? Try finding me a high profile ELECTED Republican. One who isn't subject to party discipline from the tea-bagger contingent.You aren't paying attention. I don't particularly care where they stand in terms of the caucus (well, I care a little bit, but not that much). I care where they stand in terms of their constituency. If she was far left of her constituency, they had a really funny of showing it for the last ten years. That's also why you don't see me trying to drum Ben Nelson and John Tester out of the party. I'd be far less upset at Lieberman if he represented Arizona or Texas. But if the Republicans want to make sure they're ideologically pure, but only win in deep red regions, that's fine by me.
And Scozzafava was never given the chance to be voted out by a Republican electorate. She was chosen through party hackery, with no in put from people.
I wager that if Lieberman became a Republican, you'd have lots to say about him.
If she was far left of her constituency, they had a really funny of showing it for the last ten years.
I meant constituency. Of Scozzafava and Owens, the more conservative candidate was possibly elected to Congress on Tuesday.
That's also why you don't see me trying to drum Ben Nelson and John Tester out of the party.
If there were plausible alternatives, you most certainly would. The NY situation enabled there to be a plausible alternative. And again, when Specter did a pretty obvious thing against the Republicans, leaving the party for the Democrats, I haven't seen the love for Sestak drop off from these pure-as-snow progressives who would never even consider chopping off the moderate.
I'm not saying Scozza is some solid leftist like the typical non-libertarian BTF poster, but Owens is extremely conservative for a Democrat. Again, Moulitsas isn't exactly in a habit of saying that a Republican is the progressive choice in an election against a Democrat.
In any case, none of that shows that he was defeated because he was too conservative for the district.
And he endorsed said Republican for president because of... Iraq. In any case, I am aware that this is unusual, but it was a one-time thing, and was not an actual congressional vote.So's Hillary. So are lots of Democrats. Why do you think this is a "right" position? And it's not an actual vote, either.He made some brief comments about that, which he walked back once Gore picked him. It's also not an actual vote, either; you dismiss abortion and gun issues as unimportant federally, but then you keep mentioning things which are even less so.The Senate passed the Palm Sunday Compromise with unanimous consent; about half the Democrats in the House supported it. And come on, that one's even less significant than the others.Again, his constituency -- assuming we mean Connecticutians and not Connecticut Democrats -- disagrees. He's not far to the right of the Democratic Party; every rating scheme has him squarely in the middle of the party, even factoring in the things you mention. (Also, I don't know why you think gun control isn't important from a federal legislative standpoint.)
------
I agree with that. It explains why Democrats don't like him. But it doesn't make him more conservative.
This bears out somewhat. One of the more well-known long-time reps from the area is the now-retired Sherry Boehlert, who was definitely always one of the more moderate Republicans and represented the adjacent 24th district for 25 years. (Although I did have a long talk with him when I was about 19 or 20 about the idiot flag-burning amendment he was determined to support. I don't entirely remember if he ended up voting for it.) He was a big science guy, and didn't really cotton too much to Bush II although he was a loyal party member.
However, again, as a resident of the area, it should be clear that it is definitely a personally conservative population, moderate or otherwise.
Hoffman was a nobody. He wasn't a plausible alternative before all the big national names backed him. If not for Club for Growth, Beck, Erickson, Armey, Palin, et al, Hoffman would have drawn under 5%. Absolutely anyone can be turned into a Hoffman if those same Republican power brokers decide they don't like an incumbent/party favorite.
And Scozzafava wasn't out of sync with NY-23 Republicans before her name got dragged through the mud the week before the election. If she was a poor choice for those voters, then why did Hoffman get 95% of his campaign funds from outside the district? Wouldn't more of those people outraged that the evil party bosses made the choice for them have contributed to the alternative choice?
And it explains why Lieberman isn't stupid enough to become a Republican. Republicans like him because he's pissing off the Dems, but he's a liberal on too many issues (though one apparently is all it takes) for them to accept him as one of them.
Well, she was a state representative - and in fact, had been elected and then re-elected since 1999. Let's not pretend the local GOP just picked some idiot's kid out of nowhere. I realize her state legislative district doesn't mirror exactly the federal 23 -- but looking at the maps -- NY-122 seems pretty close to NY-23. She was first elected in 1998 - and NY state reps appear to be elected every two years....
So - if my math is right, they've had 6 chances to vote her out.
That said, I don't think Owens has anything to do with the election — it just fell in his lap. The real story is is the growing civil war on the political right, and its possible reverberations nationally.
Again, that's the wishcasting dream.
Republicans came together just fine in large states, one of them deep blue, and supported non-nutcase candidates for major office. Yet somehow a dinky little upstate congressional district in an unusual situation is the bellwether?
If a simple 1-year NY-23 congressional race being a fight between Republicans portends a war, what does the fighting between Democrats over a trillion-dollar health bill suggest? The destruction of the earth?
NY-122 is pretty close to NY-23, if you consider completely missing 6 of the 10 counties that make up NY-23, almost all of a 7th, half of an 8th, and a quarter or so of the 9th to be a perfect match.
The envelope from my cable bill appears to be closer to a $100 bill than NY-23 seems to be to NY-122. Care to trade?
If she was a good choice for these voters, then why was Scozz getting absolutely murdered in the fundraising long before the Hoffman thing got serious?
The envelope from my cable bill appears to be closer to a $100 bill than NY-23 seems to be to NY-122. Care to trade?
Dan. Whoa. Have you been up here? Those districts are very close in that they are very similar and the areas that don't actually overlap are adjacent anyhow. But mostly, they are similar as physical places and the people in them. This I know, as a fact, I grew up here. I have no dog in this fight as I gave you a moderate in Boehlert for your earlier point, but this thing you've written here is too much. The districts ARE close. They cover a lot of area to drive over, but they are close. I promise.
Go read some conservative blogs. It's not just wishcasting by Dem supporters. Getting rid of all the moderates in the Republican party is the stated goal next year for a large number of right-leaning bloggers along with major Republican players like Dick Armey and radio hosts like Limbaugh and Beck. And the chairman of the Republican party, among others: link
If you think this is similar to all the Democratic whining about people like Baucus, then fine. But remember that the insurrection against Lieberman in 2006 was almost entirely grassroots. Whereas what is going to happen next year will also have serious money behind it and support from the radio people in getting the word out.
If she wasn't a poor choice for those voters, then why did Hoffman get all the votes? Wouldn't more of those people who liked her have expressed support for her and wouldn't she have stayed in the race?
Republicans came together just fine in large states, one of them deep blue, and supported non-nutcase candidates for major office. Yet somehow a dinky little upstate congressional district in an unusual situation is the bellwether?
NY-23 ain't the harbinger of ultimate doom, but it is the fourth in a string, following IL-14, LA-6 and MS-1. The Republicans haven't taken a House seat away from the Democrats in a special election since 2001.
That's on the heels of the 2008 House races, where 14 incumbent Republicans lost to Democrats while 5 incumbent Democrats lost to their GOP opponents. Also, the Democrats swept all 13 open seats. Then there's 2006, when the Democrats didn't lose a single Congressional incumbent-- the only time in history that has happened for any party. Pretty soon, somebody's going to call this sort of thing a "trend."
And though New Jersey is a blue state, they've elected the Republican candidate in 5 of the last 8 elections.
Now you're just wanting to argue like a ten-year-old. I'm not addressing any of those points. Dan dismissed the idea that those districts (NY-122 and NY 23) were close to each other or similar. They are, and very much so. Thus endeth my point.
From what I can tell - NY-23 (the congressional district) would appear to include ALL of NY-122 (state), ALL of NY-114, ALL of NY-118, and perhaps portions of NY-115. State senate districts 45, 47, and 48 would seem to be the only wholly contained senate districts.
The lower house 118 is rep'ed by a Democrat, as is the upper house 48.
That leaves a state rep from NY 114 and 2 state senators from 45 and 47.
Scozzafava has served as a Republican in the NY legislature longer than any of them.
Do you want me to run population numbers by state district?
I stand by my original post --
Voters in a district wholly contained -- one of only 3 -- in the NY-23 congressional district had elected and reelected Scozzafava SIX TIMES.
I was simply pointing out that the idea that Scozzafava was some sort of picked off the street liberal by a local party off its rocker is nonsense. She'd been elected SIX TIMES to serve in the state legislature in a district wholly contained in the congressional district.
I'd be surprised if many local special elections incorporate an open primary to produce candidates rather than utilizing some sort of leaders' vote. Primaries are expensive and paid for by the local party machinery (often but not always with a helping hand from the state party), and local party affiliates are never exactly flush with cash. If this was "hackery," I suspect it's the same hackery with which most special election candidates are generated nationwide.
Elections generally are - state and local budgets considered... Several NW Indiana counties were supposed to have a ballot issue regarding transportation funding this past Tuesday, but couldn't afford to hold it so it was pushed off to the regular 2010 offcycle election.
There was great consternation because Indiana doesn't allow liquor sales on election days - despite the fact that the "election day" had no election in Lake and LaPorte counties, the law was written in such a way that both counties banned alcohol sales for the day.
Ummm... yeah...
I never thought I'd need or want to learn how to use BTF's "ignore" feature, but here we are...
Go read some hard left blogs, they are all for drumming out moderates/bluedogs (starting with Lieberman)- of course no one that matters (party leaders, voters in "blue dog" districts etc is paying any attention to them.
The difference, for now, is that the Hard right seem sable top get some traction, the hard left. not so much.
Personally I love all this spinning. I think both parties have problems. Virginia shows at least 2 things
1: The right is motivated to come out and vote
2: The left/the Obama coalition, is not right now.
That is bad news for the Dems.
I also think NY-23 is bad news for the Repubs, if nothing else it may make candidates tack a bit too far to the right in primary contests- than is going to be comfortable for the winner in the general election.
Apparently Deeds sole strategy was to paint his opponent as a far right wacko- based on a memo he wrote as 20 year old- unfortunately for Deeds his opponent never campaigned as a hard rightist, didn't "look" like one and didn't act like one. However, in the future someone may make Deed's strategy work: 1: By not being Deeds; 2:It would be a lot easier to stick "wingnut" on a candidate who just spent a bruising primary battle trying to out wingnut his opponent.
2010 will be interesting, the right is motivated, and they are active, and that will be most apparent in primary battles before the general election.
Joey you are a worthless piece of garbage and I hope you get banned scumbag.
Yeah, this d*uchebag is really doing one hell of a job, I'll tell you.
I was wondering about his connection to BTF. It seemed odd that someone would invoke Admiral Ackbar while on a murderous rampage.
This has been a good thread, actually--I have learned a lot about various Congressional districts. I hope the site honchos leave #436 up.
I agree about the knowledge in this thread. I just don't want Joey to derail us from talking about my actual peeps. That's why I have him on ignore. I'd suggest the same for everyone else.
I was simply pointing out that the idea that Scozzafava was some sort of picked off the street liberal by a local party off its rocker is nonsense. She'd been elected SIX TIMES to serve in the state legislature in a district wholly contained in the congressional district.
Your plan appears to be writing SIX TIMES enough so that someone builds a time machine and goes back in time to draw NY-122 to encompass the most of NY-23 that is not currently in NY-122. Were you Wesley Clark's campaign strategist?
Now you're just wanting to argue like a ten-year-old. I'm not addressing any of those points. Dan dismissed the idea that those districts (NY-122 and NY 23) were close to each other or similar. They are, and very much so. Thus endeth my point.
And once again, the fact is, only the entirety of 1 of the 10 counties in NY-23 and parts of only 4 of the 10 counties (and 1 of those 4 is a small fraction) in NY-23 make up NY-122.
Do you think Schoenberg and Haydn are very similar because they both used violins and quarter notes?
NY-23 ain't the harbinger of ultimate doom, but it is the fourth in a string, following IL-14, LA-6 and MS-1. The Republicans haven't taken a House seat away from the Democrats in a special election since 2001.
I don't think anyone's argued that 2006 and 2008 weren't horrific years for the Republicans.
I wasn't referring to the ability of the Republicans to win generally, but to some huge civil war that's brewing. I'm arguing that what we've seen is the normal infighting between the moderates and the wing of a political party, that was juiced up to 12 in NY due to special circumstances (and even if we accept that NY-23 is the same as NY-122, which it isn't, that lack of a primary can stir up some bad blood with the people that disagree because they feel they were never given a chance to have their voices heard).
I'm not saying NJ or VA are indicative of the Republicans ability to beat the Democrats overall, but much larger examples of the Republicans not having nasty infighting destroy their chances. That Republicans united very neatly behind Christie, a rather mediocre candidate in his own right, is certainly a much larger example of pragmatism than a little congressional district having a fight in an unusual situation.
Do you think Schoenberg and Haydn are very similar because they both used violins and quarter notes?
Dan, oy. Lay the maps over each other if nothing else. If I had the skills I'd make the picture for you.
Secondly, again, and again and again. I grew up here. I'm living here now. The areas, when differed and marked off by lines, are still NOT THAT DIFFERENT IN TERMS OF THE PEOPLE AND POPULATION. I don't know of the point you are trying to make but if you are trying to draw some kind of Little Italy vs. Chinatown one-street-makes-all-the-difference thing between the districts, no, false, untrue. Give someone who has lived here, lives here now, and who's family has lived here for four generations a little credit for the facts on the ground. There is little but lines on the ground that separate these two districts which already overlap anyhow.
I'm just trying to provide some perspective, again, I didn't get all "it's crazy these people never vote blue," I supported you on the moderate point. But if you want to say that the areas represented in those districts are not similar, and closely so, you are wrong. Period.
(It is not Schoenberg and Haydn. It's more Cornelius and Mendelssohn, to bludgeon the metaphor.)
EDIT: Also, the original post: "NY-122 seems pretty close to NY-23" You're rising up to strike down "seems pretty close"? Really?
based on that description, without ever hearing either, yes. :-)
There are some (really really far to the right), who think it was good because moderate Repubs got hurt more than wingnuts - thereby pushing the party to the right- which they see as good for the party in the long term.
Of course these are the same wingnuts, who if they ever did purge the "moderates", would then decide that the Libertarians would have to go, for opposing the anti-flag burning, anti-gay marriage, pro-School Prayer {protestant prayer) amendment.
State districts are smaller than federal districts.
I'm simply pointing out that NY-122 is one of 3 districts wholly contained inside NY-23. While I haven't run the population numbers, it seems that her state district within NY-23 is at least as large as any other district contained therein, if not the largest.
"SIX TIMES" is completely pertinent because a significant portion of the NY-23 district had no problem sending Scozzafava to the NY legislature for more than a decade's worth of elections.
She wasn't some carpetbagger come to town (that would be Hoffman), she wasn't some unknown, and whatever machinations the party chieftans went through --- it would seem to me that Scozzafava was going to be on any short list.
Why can't you just admit that the Scozzafava "selection" wasn't the travesty you painted it to be?
Well that's true to some extent, in many ways this is basically a continuation of the long standing Right wing battle against the Rockefeller wing.
Seriously. Bring your keyboard commando ######## down to Georgia some time Joey, and me and the two Marines that were raised in my parents house will put your sorry ass in its proper place. But call ahead. We'll have to schedule around their deployments overseas taking shots in wars you bleat and whinge about from your ####### armchair.
I don't know if it was or wasn't.
NY (and North Eastern Repubs in general), tend to be to the left of the National GOP on many issues. Let's assume that Scozzafava is to the left of the Whitman/Pataki/Giuliani type republican. I still don't see a "revolt" generated by local voters.
My guess is that the Repubs IN THE DISTRICT, weren't excited by her, weren't particularly happy, but weren't going to do anything rash about it (like vote enmasse for the Dem, or the third partier)- and then the out of town partisan celebs got involved, Hoffman picked up $, and off it took.
What I really don't know is the reason for the last minute swing to the Dem:
1: The polling was just wrong/off
2: People who were going to vote for Hoffman said, hey, why am I voting for this out of town yahoo, I don't ordinarily vote dem, but this other guy is all right.
3: People who weren't going to vote, who likely voter models said were not going to vote, woke up and said, "Sarah Palin endorsed this guy! He's a Glenn Beck follower!!!! Jaysus, I gotta go vote for whoever is running against this guy".
#1 and #2 would really mean nothing as far as national implications are concerned.
Demos are praying it is #3.
It was his Master's thesis, but McConnell was 35 at the time. Hardly the work of a kid who didn't know what he was doing. In the thesis he postulated that conservatives had to lie about their views to get elected in order to implement said views. You're right though that he did successfully run as a moderate.
State campaigns and national campaigns, not the same thing or fought on the same issues.
As for Joey, I'm sure there are those on the left who are mentally ill in exactly the way you describe, but you will have a hard time finding examples on the internet because 99% of Americans don't think that way. On the other hand, the fact that your reaction to tragedy is to use it to make obscene political attacks puts you in exactly the same mentally ill class.
I suspect #1 above all else... I imagine a special election in a congressional district is near impossible to model.
I suspect #1 was the biggest factor too, but there is also a #4 that I would think mattered at least some. FoxNews made a mistake all weekend, reporting that Scozzafava had dropped out to support Hoffman. I have no idea how many voters in the district get their news from Fox or word of mouth from people who watch Fox, but I'm guessing alot of them found out by Tuesday that Scozzafava actually endorsed Owens. Couple those with the Scozzafava voters who had already switched over to Owens based on her endorsement and it could be enough for a 2-5 point shift.
You know that your little #### ass is too scared to say that to my face, much less actually bear arms to defend the nation. You know that if you ever set foot in my presence I will put you on the ground in a pool of your own drool and blood. Go ahead, son. Make reservations for SABR40 now and we'll put on our own little side show, #####.
"SIX TIMES" is completely pertinent because a significant portion of the NY-23 district had no problem sending Scozzafava to the NY legislature for more than a decade's worth of elections.
And a significant portion, the majority, of the NY-23 never got to give her an up-and-down vote. Not to mention that voting for a state job is different than voting for a national job - parochial concerns are huge, no matter what Armey says, but there's at least some national concern in a congressional election.
You really should stick to putting out ridiculous propaganda on behalf of known state sponsors of terrorism like Iran. If you let yourself get too carried away here, even one of your comments might end up getting removed.
Didn't Milwaukee already have Carlos Gomez and just call him Tony Gwynn, Jr? What? He's a Padre now? Well I guess they have to fill that hole post haste. Twins win.
"A critic who refuses to attack what is bad is not a whole-hearted supporter of what is good."
s/
Because it is? If I'm a member of a political party, I feel I should have some vote in who runs in the general election. Would those of you who supported Obama be happy if the DNC said \"#### it, we're running Clinton anyway?" Would those of you who support Sestak be happy if Pennsylvania Dems say "Specter is the candidate, lots of people have voted for him in the past, so #### Sestak, Specter's the candidate?"
In any election, be it a far-left Democrat or a far-right Republican, a portion of the party has some right to be royally pissed off if the candidate representing them was never chosen by a fair and transparent process.
That's critic. If you two don't stop threatening each other, I'm going to close the thread.
Now that's a good one. Did Kos and HuffPo comment sections get taken off the internet in the last 24 hours?
You do have that vote for general elections. You apparently don't get primaries for special elections in many places. I agree with you that it sucks, and the process should be changed somehow. But it isn't going to happen without pressure, and hopefully the Hoffman crowd did a good deed by starting that process in NY.
Feel free to go searching for examples to prove the point. I'll even help you if you want to look at the hidden comments that were troll rated for being against community standards and basic human decency. If there are examples, most of them will be there.
The etymology of "critique" is "to cut." Some people are hard of hearing and need to be taught by alternative methods.
There used to be one before, Rob Base, but he got banned.
Peter Cornelius!
I find Peter Cornelius far closer than NY-23 to NY-122.
So... none of the points I made make any sense prior to that? Nothing? Really? Have you ever even been in northern New York? What's your reference that those districts are not similar to one another? How does that make any sense? Give me some reasoning.
Feel free to go searching for examples to prove the point. I'll even help you if you want to look at the hidden comments that were troll rated for being against community standards and basic human decency. If there are examples, most of them will be there.
Troll-rated, that's a good one!
+12! Gogo troll-rater! (EDIT: This was from the Fort Hood shooting thread)
You don't think people thinking that Republicans root for American citizens to be murdered is a product of a disturbed mind? And that took me all of 45 seconds to find.
I wish I could find one of the Bunning threads there from last year. Someone said that they hope that "that Alzheimer's patient dies quickly or someone helps him along the way" and got a +16.
It doesn't matter whether the districts are similar. Wyoming is similar politically to Idaho, but that doesn't mean that David Freudenthal should get to be appointed Governor of Idaho.
The claim was that the people of NY-23 actually voted for Scozza in the past. The fact that most of the residents of NY-23 never had an opportunity to vote or not for her in the past is a strong rebuttal to that point.
As noted above, there should always be primaries for special elections. If there had been an actual primary, a lot of this might have been sorted out. Hoffman may have won a primary and lost (though I doubt he would've won the primary), but there's less of an argument from people who feel like they never got a say.
Oh, forget it.
When did Wyoming become a subset of Idaho?
This is the second time recently I've noticed Dan parsing and stretching his arguments in a very Nieporent-like fashion, I think he's getting frustrated.
Or DMN has stolen his keys or something.
I dunno, it's starting to get entertaining, Joey B is loathsome, Hutch can be loathsome, let them go at eachother and leave everyone else alone.
OK - here's the next challenge...
Find me A post on freeper that takes the rational POV that the Ft Hood massacre was a horrible tragedy and shouldn't be used as a political cudgel....
I bet I can find one on the DK thread before you can find one on a similar freeper thread!
I demand Dan's urine be tested for Nieporoids!
In all seriousness, though - I think it's just a matter of devil's advocacy against the BTF liberal intelligentsia... As I said in a previous political thread - I've never gotten the impression that David likes or supports Sarah Palin, just that his quasi-support was solely based in opposition to the Palin trashers.
...and frankly, I'm fine with that - David/Dan make better counterpoints, generally argue more rationally, etc than those for whom they're playing proxy by default.
Dan, tell Kneepants to stop calling me names.
Find me A post on freeper that takes the rational POV that the Ft Hood massacre was a horrible tragedy and shouldn't be used as a political cudgel....
I bet I can find one on the DK thread before you can find one on a similar freeper thread!
Except I don't need to do that challenge. I made no claim that there were no seriously disturbed right-wingers.
You made a claim that one can't find seriously disturbed left-wingers on the web. I disputed that. You said that there was no way I could find anything that wasn't troll-rated as being below the standards of the community.
I found something in less than a minute that was left-wing, deranged, and not only not troll-rated, but given high positive ratings.
So now I get to issue a challenge. Admit that you were wrong.
Is this one of those things like the mythical "liberal media?"
OH, originally, right at the beginning, he was fawning over her like the FREEPERS, he thought, even if only briefly, that she was a real honest to goodness "small government conservative", ie: practically a libertarian...
He never really admitted he was wrong about that, but all the fawning (and vigor) went out of his defenses of her as the campaign wore down.
actually I think he claimed you couldn't find left wingers who were disturbed in the specific manner that Joey B implied (sadly, I'm sure you could find them if you looked though)
This is the second time recently I've noticed Dan parsing and stretching his arguments in a very Nieporent-like fashion, I think he's getting frustrated.
Considering 19th Century NY-23 Meme claim has slowly transmogrified from "No Democrats elected in NY-23 since the 19th century" to "No Democrats elected to some specific parts of NY-23 that were also parts of other congressional districts with other counties since 1961," I'm not sure I've done any stretching that could reach even a fraction of that elasticity.
See, this right here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You want us to ignore the fact that a Muslim-American became radicalized, started to symapthize with the enemy during war, and instead of obeying his orders decided to turn coat and kill as many of his fellow American soldiers as he possibly could. You want us to pretend that this was nothing but some horrible tragedy instead, synonymous with a run-of-the-mill school shooting or something along those lines.
Our nation is at war against extreme radical Islamists in multiple nations my friend. I'm on our side. Are you?
Well... except that wasn't me.
But my larger point in jumping into that little tête-à-tête was one of the things that drive me nuts about centrists/moderates/libertarians with disdain for both parties...
I don't disagree with the idea that there are some seriously disturbed folks on the left that have this idea of politics and political discourse being nothing more than trashing, destroying, unfiltered, unadulterated hate of the 'other side' --
But I would maintain its more prevalent and pervasive on the right than the left. Unfortunately, I do often finding myself believing that the left is closing the gap -- posts like the DK one you cited above WERE tougher to find just a few years ago (at least, such posts that were lauded, rather than questioned/TR'ed).
I understand why people not on either "side" have precious little patience for the shades, degrees, and numbers - and I also accept that I'm not an unbiased observer, but it ticks me off nonetheless.
Are you questioning my intelligentsia?
A product of a disturbed mind in the same way Joey's posts have been, agreed. So my first statement is wrong, maybe it's more like 5% and those people are far more likely to end up on the internet than otherwise.
Uh, Joey, you haven't actually condemned the actions of Malik Nadal Hassan here either. Just raged against evil leftists. For the record, Hassan's actions were evil and wrong. No amount of physical or emotional distress, or belief in a political or spiritual cause, justifies taking the lives of others.
WTF.
Outstanding.
Good grief, are you really still picking at the bones of this carcass? You never responded substantively to my post # 384: have you really expended all this time and energy to the difference between "until Tuesday, NY-23 hadn't sent a Democrat to Congress since the Civil War" and "until Tuesday, the North Country/Adirondack region of New York State hadn't sent a Democrat to Congress since the Civil War"? THAT'S your victory in this little debate? (And by the way, you either don't know what a meme is or are deliberately and repeatedly misusing the term.)
What Zonk says. I went to DKos after I posted and found that I can't view hidden posts anymore anyway; my trusted user status has apparently been taken away since I very rarely post there in the last few years. DK has it's own internal politics, which is why I don't follow it anymore. And it does seem to have turned if not more politically left then at least more extreme in general.
Which is one of those things that normal people don't actually need to say. It's understood and assumed, except by morons like Joey. Nidal Hasan is a crazy person who will deserve every bit of the court martial and death sentence he is likely to recieve. His actions reflect on Muslims exactly as much as Scott Roeder's actions reflect on Christians.
Just for the record I find "run of the mill school shootings" to be evil and wrong.
I also find that referring to school shootings as "run of the mill" is disturbing on some levels.
I also like Szym, even though I've never actually met him and he's a libertarian
I also kind of like Hutch, even though he's Braves fan, but he is getting worrisome lately
How so?
We simply don't want people threatening physical confrontations with each other on a website. That's a level well past sarcastic quips or low-to-moderate name-calling.
It's definitely factionalized to a greater extent than even primary battles did.
There's still no tolerance for nutty conspiracy theorizing, nor for pro-Palestinian comments and postings that even sniff antisemitism... but I look at the feting of Alan Grayson -
Buried under the hyperbole and bomb-throwing, he does make some points I agree with and chances are, I'd even agree overwhelmingly with his voting record... but I just hate, hate, hate the fact that he's sort of become "our" Michelle Bachmann or our Tom Tancredo.
Say what you will about someone like Dennis Kucinich - but Kucinich wasn't/isn't a bomb-thrower... neither was/is Barbara Boxer, or John Kerry, or Tammy Baldwin, or any other Dems that would have properly been placed in the left-most wing of the party.
It saddens me that the 'answer' seems to fast becoming "we need to get some hyperbole spewing, take-no-verbal prisoner leaders of our own."
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