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Saturday, September 12, 2009

When the Yankees Were Not Ready for Willie Mays

Willie Mays could have been a Yankee. In the 13 months leading up to his acquisition by the New York Giants on June 20, 1950, the Yankees received numerous tips about Mays, then a teenager who was considered the best player in the Negro leagues.

The story of how he got away is a window into a time when the Yankees resisted baseball integration with discriminatory policies that cost them the best talent available in the years after Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in 1947.

NaOH Posted: September 12, 2009 at 10:02 PM | 44 comment(s)
  Related News: HistoryNegro LeaguesNY YankeesSan Francisco

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   1. Basil Ganglia  Posted: September 12, 2009 at 11:13 PM (#3320657)
I believe that the Yankees originally had thought that Vic Power would be the first black Yankees ballplayer. Power, though, was not particularly docile. Power was from Puerto Rico, and though very dark-skinned, did not consider himself to be black. He certainly did not show the servility that was expected from black players.

The Yankees decided Power did not have the proper "attitude" and moved him to the Athletics, while deciding that the apparently bland and uncontroversial Elston Howard would be the first black Yankee.
   2. TerpNats  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 12:30 AM (#3320663)
It's fascinating to ponder how baseball history might have changed had Mays become a Yankee. He could well have been the successor to Joe DiMaggio in center field -- meaning Mickey Mantle would have had to succeed at another position, either a corner outfield spot or shortstop. I think Mays' personality would have won over Yankees fans; he was no Vic Power. My only reservation about having Mays as a Yankee would be Casey Stengel, whose prickly personality was a sharp contrast from the more ebullient Leo Durocher. The Yankees, with Mays, could have gained popularity in the black community.

And without Mays on the Giants, they probably don't win pennants in 1951 and '54, thus becoming irrelevant even sooner. They may well have left New York a few years earlier, probably for Minnesota ...and could Walter O'Malley have moved the Dodgers to Los Angeles without a partner team in San Francisco? Maybe so (after all, from 1961 to '67, the Angels were the only AL team on the West Coast), but baseball's landscape might have been considerably different.
   3. Dale Sams  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 01:12 AM (#3320672)
Yankees resisted baseball integration with discriminatory policies that cost them the best talent available in the years after Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in 1947.


Didn't stop them from winning 5 World Series between 1947 and 1955....just sayin.
   4. Joe Dimino  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 01:21 AM (#3320674)
And if Mays was the best player in the Negro Leagues, you'd think the other 14 teams besides the Yankees and Giants would have known about him too. I'm guessing this article could apply to 15 teams, not just the Yankees . . .
   5. Best Regards, Larry Mahnken  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 01:22 AM (#3320675)
He could well have been the successor to Joe DiMaggio in center field -- meaning Mickey Mantle would have had to succeed at another position, either a corner outfield spot or shortstop.
It's harsh to say it, but I think the Yankees would have stuck with the white guy in center and moved Mays to left or right.

Also, the Yankees would have won 10 straight World Series.
   6. RollingWave  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 02:00 AM (#3320689)
Mantle and Mays on the same team would be utterly absurd.
   7. Walt Davis  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 02:10 AM (#3320690)
How different life would have been ...

The Indians would have won the 54 series ... except for the fact they would have lost the pennant to the Yanks.

The Dodgers win a couple more pennants.

Steve Treder would have had to figure out a way to wax poetic about, oh, Jose Pagan.

Bobby Bonds would have spent most of his career in CF.

Blazing Saddles never would have been made. (no I can't explain why not, it's just the sort of thing that happens when you mess with the FABRIC OF TIME!)

It's harsh to say it, but I think the Yankees would have stuck with the white guy in center and moved Mays to left or right.

I don't know ... Mays was pretty "athletic" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).
   8. Greg Goosen at 30  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 04:43 AM (#3320701)
. If the Yankees didn't sign Willie Mays because they were racists, then why didn't the Brooklyn Dodgers? They always needed a left fielder (move Snider or put Mays). Or Cleveland? Or the other teams that had integrated.
Basil Ganglia ignores the fact the Yankees had a better young first baseman in Moose Skowron. They were right to trade Power to get other players such as pitcher Harry Byrd (ROY two years earlier) and veteran Eddie Robinson to spell Skowron, not force a controversy over which youngster to play.

The Yankees blew it not signing Mays. But lots of other teams did. The Yankees worked harder and smarter than every other organization of the era.

I doubt if Don Young and a lot of guys who played for Durocher would describe him as "ebullient" At times, yes. But Bill James has described how once a year he would put someone in his doghouse. I also think Stengel's personality got prickly in the late 1950s. One of the reasons why he was hired was Yankee ownership thought Bucky Harris and others were too harsh on the sensitive young Yogi Berra, calling him "Alley Oop".
   9. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn)  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 05:48 AM (#3320702)
The Yankees worked harder and smarter than every other organization of the era.

By and large true, though you can't deny the racial hangup the Yankees had. It's one thing to be racist when you're signing the Mick for eleven hundred bucks, it's another thing to lose your dynasty in large part because you didn't develop very many black players, which is exactly what happened when the Fords, Mantles, Marises, Berras and so ons of the world got old.
   10. buddaley  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 06:36 AM (#3320705)
I cannot say why other teams did not sign Mays. There are many possible reasons, but in the end only one team could end up with him, so making judgments based on who didn't is fruitless.

However, I think it is well documented that George Weiss did not want black players on the Yankees because he felt it would sully the image of the team. At this point, the burden of proof falls on anyone who denies that the Yankee practice in the 1950s was not racist as there is plenty of evidence they were.

As for the team succeeding in the 1950s despite the obvious racism (and the Power instance is also well-documented whether the trade made sense or not), the full effects of integration were not felt until the 1960s. Despite Robinson and Doby, baseball was still slow in signing black players early on, and those with established stars, strong farm systems and money could still win despite lagging in the effort to find black players. By the mid 1960s, however, the effects were more clear not just by the Yankees' collapse but by the dominance of the NL which had generally been far more aggressive in signing black players than the AL had been.
   11. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Marching Through Georgia  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 07:24 AM (#3320706)
Once you got past the early 50's, the main reason the Yankees continued to succeed in spite of their blatant racism is because they were playing in the American League. Put them in the National League and they would have never won as many pennants as they did from 1955 through 1964.

The flip side to that is if they had used their money and their reputation in the late 40's and early 50's to go after black talent with the same degree of aggressiveness with which they pursued white talent, they might well have won 15 straight championships, and established a near permanent chokehold on the American League. It was no different then than it is now: Money plus shortsightedness and stupidity can only get you so far**, but money plus intelligence is tough to beat.

**(unless your opponents are brain dead paupers, as was the case in the 50's)
   12. karlmagnus  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 08:49 AM (#3320716)
Red Sox missed on him too, (racist Cronin, apparently) which is a more interesting counter-factual. As we know, Boston was potentially an excellent baseball city, so with Mays and Williams they might have had the Impossible Dream a decade earlier and prematurely ended the Yankee oppression of the AL.
   13. Misirlou had a hedge back home in the suburbs  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 08:50 AM (#3320717)
The flip side to that is if they had used their money and their reputation in the late 40's and early 50's to go after black talent with the same degree of aggressiveness with which they pursued white talent, they might well have won 15 straight championships, and established a near permanent chokehold on the American League.


Or it might have forced the other AL teams to do the same and the talent disparity between the leagues would have disappeared.
   14. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Marching Through Georgia  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 09:22 AM (#3320723)
Red Sox missed on him too, (racist Cronin, apparently) which is a more interesting counter-factual. As we know, Boston was potentially an excellent baseball city, so with Mays and Williams they might have had the Impossible Dream a decade earlier and prematurely ended the Yankee oppression of the AL.


You're absolutely right about that, but that's a subject that's been written about voluminously, beginning with Jules Tygiel's Baseball's Great Experiment back in 1983, and more recently by Howard Bryant's Shut Out.

-------------------------------

The flip side to that is if they had used their money and their reputation in the late 40's and early 50's to go after black talent with the same degree of aggressiveness with which they pursued white talent, they might well have won 15 straight championships, and established a near permanent chokehold on the American League.

Or it might have forced the other AL teams to do the same and the talent disparity between the leagues would have disappeared.


It may have motivated some other teams to do that, but at that point it's hard to imagine that the Yankees' financial advantages wouldn't have come into play. Some of their AL "competition" didn't even have a AAA farm team, and with Veeck out of the way, what remained of their opposition wasn't exactly inspired or imaginative. The White Sox did get Minoso and a handful of other black players (mostly by trading), but their farm system wasn't really the focus of their overall strategy. Until they let it slide in the late 50's, the Yankees consistently put more resources into scouting and their farm system than any other AL team---just imagine what they might have done if Del Webb and George Weiss didn't have the mentality of a restricted country club owner.

And when it came to their better heeled brethren, there's the obvious point that if seeing the Yankees win five straight World Series didn't motivate the Red Sox and the Tigers to take advantage of the Yankees' racism and start signing black players themselves, I'm not sure that those franchises would have done things much differently even if the Yankees had signed Willie Mays---who in the short run would have just made their margins a few games bigger. It's nice to say that money and success motivates everyone, but when you look at the likes of Yawkey and Briggs, it's clear that their racism overrode these motivations.
   15. TerpNats  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 09:29 AM (#3320726)
Red Sox missed on him too, (racist Cronin, apparently) which is a more interesting counter-factual. As we know, Boston was potentially an excellent baseball city, so with Mays and Williams they might have had the Impossible Dream a decade earlier and prematurely ended the Yankee oppression of the AL.
We can do this for several teams. Suppose the Boston Braves had signed Mays? I don't think he would have led the Braves to the NL pennant in 1951, though he might have kept them in the race), and perhaps the Braves still leave town after 1952 (when Willie spent most of the year in the Army). But with Mays teaming with Aaron, Mathews and Spahn, the Milwaukee Braves might have dominated the NL throughout the '50s and won several more pennants.

If Clark Griffith had signed black players several years earlier than he did -- and there's no doubt he admired their talent -- the Senators could have overcome their weak farm system to become a contender (though probably not a pennant-winner). Griffith was no out-and-out racist like Redskins owner George Preston Marshall, but Washington still was largely a southern town with corresponding attitudes (there was still much segregation in area schools and other places), so Griffith may have felt that integration's profits to his franchise weren't worth the social cost.
   16. Misirlou had a hedge back home in the suburbs  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 09:42 AM (#3320732)
Red Sox missed on him too, (racist Cronin, apparently) which is a more interesting counter-factual. As we know, Boston was potentially an excellent baseball city, so with Mays and Williams they might have had the Impossible Dream a decade earlier and prematurely ended the Yankee oppression of the AL.



Well, as Walt mentions in #7, when you alter history one can never know how it would eventually play out, but during the 50's the red Sox were never close enough to first place for Mays to have been able to make up the difference all by himself. During the 50's they never finished closer than 11 games, and were usually 16 or more. In Willie's best season they finished 42 games back. Mays at his very best was an 11 WAR player, but the Red Sox didn't have a replacement CF. They had Jimmy Piersall who was giving them 3-4 WAR.
   17. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Marching Through Georgia  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 10:02 AM (#3320738)
If Clark Griffith had signed black players several years earlier than he did -- and there's no doubt he admired their talent -- the Senators could have overcome their weak farm system to become a contender (though probably not a pennant-winner). Griffith was no out-and-out racist like Redskins owner George Preston Marshall, but Washington still was largely a southern town with corresponding attitudes (there was still much segregation in area schools and other places), so Griffith may have felt that integration's profits to his franchise weren't worth the social cost.

Griffith is an interesting case. You're right that he wasn't a racist in the Weiss-Yawkey-Briggs-Carpenter mold, but OTOH in the 40's he had a strong stake in the continuation of the Negro Leagues, and he rented Griffith Stadium for the Homestead Grays' home games. But there's another factor worth noting: Griffith also had one of the best informal scouting networks in Latin America, built up during the many years when he'd made a point of signing cheap (white) Cubans. He might very well have utilized that network to counter the Yankees' financial advantages, as it wasn't until much later that the Yankees had established much of a presence outside the U.S.
   18. Gonfalon Bubble  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 11:06 AM (#3320755)
Well, now, if we're talking near-misses and speculation...

Henry Aaron:
“I had the Giants' contract in my hand. But the Braves offered fifty dollars a month more. That's the only thing that kept Willie Mays and me from being teammates -- fifty dollars."

3. Mays, CF
4. Aaron, RF

From 1954-1973.
   19. Downtown Bookie  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 12:41 PM (#3320798)
Well, now, if we're talking near-misses and speculation...

Henry Aaron:
“I had the Giants' contract in my hand. But the Braves offered fifty dollars a month more. That's the only thing that kept Willie Mays and me from being teammates -- fifty dollars."

3. Mays, CF
4. Aaron, RF

From 1954-1973.


Nah. Remember, we're talking the Giants. If they had both Aaron and Mays they would have traded one or the other for a number three starter.

DB
   20. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 12:49 PM (#3320801)
Henry Aaron:
“I had the Giants' contract in my hand. But the Braves offered fifty dollars a month more. That's the only thing that kept Willie Mays and me from being teammates -- fifty dollars."

3. Mays, CF
4. Aaron, RF


Bobby Bonds would have been traded from the Giants early in his career, and his son wouldn't have had any ties to San Francisco when he became a free agent.
   21. TerpNats  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 09:15 PM (#3320978)
With Mays and Aaron, do the Giants survive in New York? They might have won some more games, contended for another pennant or two. They wouldn't have been enough for the Giants to withstand the problems of the neighborhood around the Polo Grounds -- but Stoneham might have followed the football Giants across the Harlem River to Yankee Stadium for a few years (which would have cut down on Willie and Hank's home run totals, but perhaps boosted their doubles and triples totals), and if the Dodgers still left Brooklyn over their inability to get the domed stadium built over the LIRR Atlantic Avenue terminal, maybe Robert Moses offers the Flushing Meadows site to the Giants.
   22. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars  Posted: September 13, 2009 at 09:30 PM (#3320983)
I don't think Aaron would have made any difference in the Giants moving. They won the Series without Aaron in his rookie year, and they finished 18.5 or more games out in their last three years in New York.
   23. wjones  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 03:43 PM (#3321607)
"Well, now, if we're talking near-misses and speculation...

Henry Aaron:
“I had the Giants' contract in my hand. But the Braves offered fifty dollars a month more. That's the only thing that kept Willie Mays and me from being teammates -- fifty dollars."

3. Mays, CF
4. Aaron, RF

From 1954-1973."

Well, chew on this. Aaron was a shortstop in the Negro Leagues, and moved to second when the Braves signed him, only moving to the outfield when called up, and won a starting job due to Bobby Thomson's broken ankle. He would not have been moved to third because of Mathews, but the Giants used a lot of converted outfielders at third during that time (Sid Gordon, Hank Thompson, Bobby Thomson, later Jim Ray Hart, much later Dave Kingman). It would not be a stretch to think that Henry would have been moved to third as a Giant. Before he ever had a chance to be an outfielder.
   24. JPWF13  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 04:35 PM (#3321655)
Henry Aaron:
“I had the Giants' contract in my hand. But the Braves offered fifty dollars a month more. That's the only thing that kept Willie Mays and me from being teammates -- fifty dollars."

3. Mays, CF
4. Aaron, RF

From 1954-1973."


The talent, especially offensive talent, the Giants signed, developed, and pissed away, 1960s on, was just stunning. Bill James said it was because the Giants compared everyone to Willie Mays, if he wasn't the 2nd coming of Mays they'd dump him and look for someone else...

Now if they had both Mays and Aaron... that would really have screwed up their sense of what an acceptable MLB OF was...
   25. Bob Dernier Cri  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 04:49 PM (#3321674)
Griffith also had one of the best informal scouting networks in Latin America, built up during the many years when he'd made a point of signing cheap (white) Cubans

And under Calvin Griffith, by 1960 the Senators had Earl Battey, Lenny Green, Zoilo Versalles, Camilo Pascual – three of whom would be important to their eventual pennant drive in 1965 as the Twins. In effect, they did start to recruit well among Africa-Americans and among players of color in Latin America, not too long after Clark Griffith's death.
   26. Steve Treder  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 04:58 PM (#3321683)
And under Calvin Griffith, by 1960 the Senators had Earl Battey, Lenny Green, Zoilo Versalles, Camilo Pascual – three of whom would be important to their eventual pennant drive in 1965 as the Twins.

Yes, but at the risk of being pedantic, Battey and Green had been acquired in trades, not scouted and signed by the Senators as amateurs.
   27. Don Malcolm  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 05:40 PM (#3321712)
Hey, trading for a player of color counts as a positif in those days, under the "becoming ordinary chattel" provision of the Apologie pour l'article réserve, written under cover of darkness by Jacques Barzun for the Lords of Baseball in his effort to appease the spirit (if not the letter) of American "monopoly imperalism" that was in a serious retrenchment mode by the mid-to-late 50s.

But more to the point of the thread, the team that needed to integrate in order to protect its pre-eminence in baseball at the time wasn't the Yankees (thanks to the "gentlemans' agreement" to glacierize integration in the AL), but the St. Louis Cardinals, the most successful team in the 40s and still with the best five-year WPCT for 1945-49 (ahead of the Dodgers and Yankees). They would fall off the table very quickly in the 50s, but if they'd somehow defied "natural law" and geography, some of Mays or Campnella or Newcombe or (your name here) might have made things interesting, at least for awhile.
   28. Steve Treder  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 06:08 PM (#3321739)
But more to the point of the thread, the team that needed to integrate in order to protect its pre-eminence in baseball at the time wasn't the Yankees (thanks to the "gentlemans' agreement" to glacierize integration in the AL), but the St. Louis Cardinals, the most successful team in the 40s and still with the best five-year WPCT for 1945-49 (ahead of the Dodgers and Yankees). They would fall off the table very quickly in the 50s, but if they'd somehow defied "natural law" and geography, some of Mays or Campnella or Newcombe or (your name here) might have made things interesting, at least for awhile.

True dat. But everything is relative in these things; a primary reason why the Cards would fall off the table very quickly in the 50s is that virtually all of the best black talent was being grabbed by their NL competitors, and a primary reason why the Yankees were able to soar to new heights despite proceeding with integration at a glacial pace is that their nearly all-white AL competition was so weak.

An alternative history in which every team in both leagues competes in the scramble for black talent in the 40s/50s presents all kinds of fascinating possibilities, including a far less imbalanced quality of play between the leagues across the '50s, '60s, and even '70s.
   29. cardsfanboy  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 06:14 PM (#3321746)
An alternative history in which every team in both leagues competes in the scramble for black talent in the 40s/50s presents all kinds of fascinating possibilities, including a far less imbalanced quality of play between the leagues across the '50s, '60s, and even '70s.

might make a decent short book, if they did a what if, and tried to factor in all the permutations that Walt talked about in post 7 (Blazing Saddles stays though)
   30. Srul Itza  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 06:21 PM (#3321750)
An alternative history in which every team in both leagues competes in the scramble for black talent in the 40s/50s presents all kinds of fascinating possibilities


Maybe, but if the Yankees were one of the teams that had gone full-bore after black ballplayers, you would have to think that with their advantages -- the name and prestige; playing in New York City with a large black population to provide both fans and a comfort level at home; the ability to compete with anyone on a dollar level -- they would have grabbed 1 or 2 premiere talents, if not more. Imagine, for a moment, the Yankees with Mays alongside Mantle in the outfield, and, say, Ernie Banks in the infield.
   31. Steve Treder  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 06:35 PM (#3321754)
Maybe, but if the Yankees were one of the teams that had gone full-bore after black ballplayers, you would have to think that with their advantages -- the name and prestige; playing in New York City with a large black population to provide both fans and a comfort level at home; the ability to compete with anyone on a dollar level -- they would have grabbed 1 or 2 premiere talents, if not more. Imagine, for a moment, the Yankees with Mays alongside Mantle in the outfield, and, say, Ernie Banks in the infield.

I'll quibble and suggest that it isn't so clear that, proportionally, the black population of NYC in 1950 was any greater than that of pretty much any other MLB city. I don't know that, but I'm just unconvinced that a scout wooing a Negro Leaguer with the line, "And you'll get to live in NEW YORK CITY" would have been terribly attractive.

But if the Yankees had no particular advantage in that regard, they had no disadvantage either, and you're entirely correct that a Yankees organization committed to competing to sign and develop black talent would be a damn formidable competitor. Still, the fact is that there was so much black talent becoming available that no one organization (or even two or three organizations) could effectively corner it for long. And if the Yankees were going after that talent source in a big way, then the Red Sox, Indians, and Tigers would be forced to redouble their own efforts in that regard.

And moreover I've always thought that it wasn't any of the already competitive organizations (the Yankees, Cardinals, Dodgers, Indians, whatever) that were the ones the really stood to gain from going pedal-to-the-metal in signing black players, it was the have-nots. Whatever else it was, black talent was cheap in those days. If I'm the Browns or the Athletics, what's to stop me from turning half of my roster into the Negro/Cuban All-Stars; what the hell would I have to lose?
   32. Tom Nawrocki  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 06:35 PM (#3321756)
Imagine, for a moment, the Yankees with Mays alongside Mantle in the outfield, and, say, Ernie Banks in the infield.


I'm imagining Casey Stengel calling him "Ernie Bonham."
   33. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Marching Through Georgia  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 08:26 PM (#3321811)
Griffith also had one of the best informal scouting networks in Latin America, built up during the many years when he'd made a point of signing cheap (white) Cubans

And under Calvin Griffith, by 1960 the Senators had Earl Battey, Lenny Green, Zoilo Versalles, Camilo Pascual – three of whom would be important to their eventual pennant drive in 1965 as the Twins. In effect, they did start to recruit well among Africa-Americans and among players of color in Latin America, not too long after Clark Griffith's death.


Yes, but at the risk of being pedantic, Battey and Green had been acquired in trades, not scouted and signed by the Senators as amateurs.

And at the risk of being even more nitpickety, Pascual was white and could easily have played in the pre-Robinson era. But to ease up a bit on Griffith the Elder, during the last couple of years of his lifetime the Nats both signed and brought up two very dark skinned Latinos, Carlos Paula and Julio Becquer. By that time the Negro Leagues were shot and the park rental wasn't a factor, and so there was less direct financial incentive for the Senators to remain lily white.

-----------------

Maybe, but if the Yankees were one of the teams that had gone full-bore after black ballplayers, you would have to think that with their advantages -- the name and prestige; playing in New York City with a large black population to provide both fans and a comfort level at home; the ability to compete with anyone on a dollar level -- they would have grabbed 1 or 2 premiere talents, if not more. Imagine, for a moment, the Yankees with Mays alongside Mantle in the outfield, and, say, Ernie Banks in the infield.


I'll quibble and suggest that it isn't so clear that, proportionally, the black population of NYC in 1950 was any greater than that of pretty much any other MLB city. I don't know that, but I'm just unconvinced that a scout wooing a Negro Leaguer with the line, "And you'll get to live in NEW YORK CITY" would have been terribly attractive.

I'm not at all sure that New York wouldn't have been a huge lure to a certain type of black player circa 1950. Harlem alone housed nearly 250,000 blacks (its highest point of population) and was the cultural capital of black America, and even though New York City was still segregated in many respects, in other ways it was the most "open" city in the country---much more than Chicago and Washington**, which were the only other Major League cities at the time with a sizeable black population. Plus by 1950 you already had black players on the other two New York teams, and so the comfort level for any black Yankee who'd been openly wooed by the Yanks would have been even greater. There's no question that the rest of the AL was extremely lucky that Bill Veeck or Branch Rickey wasn't running that team.

**which in 1950 was Jim Crowed from A to about Z in every aspect of public life other than transportation.
   34. Mefisto  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 09:07 PM (#3321833)
There's no question that the rest of the AL was extremely lucky that Bill Veeck or Branch Rickey wasn't running that team.


Lucky? As it was the Yankees won 14 pennants in 16 years. How much more "unlucky" could the rest of the league have been?
   35. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Marching Through Georgia  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 10:14 PM (#3321884)
There's no question that the rest of the AL was extremely lucky that Bill Veeck or Branch Rickey wasn't running that team.

Lucky? As it was the Yankees won 14 pennants in 16 years. How much more "unlucky" could the rest of the league have been?


How unlucky? Well, for starters let's just say that the world didn't end in 1964. And beyond that, it's possible that a Mays and / or an Aaron could have tipped the balance in those four seven game World Series that the Yankees lost in 1955, 1957, 1960 and 1964. In every one of those four losses the black players on their National League opponents provided much of the critical edge, and other than Elston Howard the Yankees had no answer.
   36. Mefisto  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 10:25 PM (#3321893)
I agree with you on the WS, though your original point had to do with just the AL. As for post-1964, I'm not sure how much help Mays or even Aaron might have been once the rest of the Yankees dynasty fell apart. Perhaps signing black players might have broadened their talent base for that era, and if that's what you meant, I agree.
   37. Steve Treder  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 10:25 PM (#3321894)
Chicago and Washington**, which were the only other Major League cities at the time with a sizeable black population.

Really? Detroit didn't? St. Louis didn't? Philadelphia didn't? Cleveland didn't?

Not buying it.
   38. Mefisto  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 10:26 PM (#3321895)
Just to clarify: by "even Aaron", I meant to compare his career post-1964 with that of Mays, not to compare overall.
   39. Steve Treder  Posted: September 14, 2009 at 10:30 PM (#3321898)
Plus by 1950 you already had black players on the other two New York teams, and so the comfort level for any black Yankee who'd been openly wooed by the Yanks would have been even greater.

Remember that in the scenario we're playing here, every team is going for integration. So it's nearly certain that by 1950 more teams than just the Dodgers, Giants, Indians, and Braves would be employing black players at the major league level, and all of them would have them in their minor league systems.
   40. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Marching Through Georgia  Posted: September 15, 2009 at 05:45 AM (#3322052)
Chicago and Washington**, which were the only other Major League cities at the time with a sizeable black population.

Really? Detroit didn't? St. Louis didn't? Philadelphia didn't? Cleveland didn't?

Not buying it.


Not comparatively, and beyond that, Harlem and Chicago had far more of an allure for blacks then than those cities you name, certainly the notoriously conservative St. Louis and Philadelphia.

Plus by 1950 you already had black players on the other two New York teams, and so the comfort level for any black Yankee who'd been openly wooed by the Yanks would have been even greater.

Remember that in the scenario we're playing here, every team is going for integration. So it's nearly certain that by 1950 more teams than just the Dodgers, Giants, Indians, and Braves would be employing black players at the major league level, and all of them would have them in their minor league systems.


Fair enough, but that wasn't the scenario I was assuming. Mine was that the Yankees had assumed the same leading role within the AL that the Dodgers had taken in the NL and the Indians had in the AL. Of course if all teams had integrated at the same time and with equal zeal the Yankees would likely have dominated more or less as they did in reality.
   41. Ron Johnson  Posted: September 15, 2009 at 07:15 AM (#3322075)
Didn't stop them from winning 5 World Series between 1947 and 1955


"Before that black son of a ##### accuses us of being prejudiced, he should learn how to hit an Indian" -- Casey Stengel, October 4, 1952 (reacting to Allie Reynolds' 4-hitter as well as Robinson's criticisms before the series)

Incidentally, according to The Biographical History of Baseball Bill McCorry (an open racist) simply lied about Mays, saying he couldn't hit a curve.
   42. wjones  Posted: September 15, 2009 at 10:24 AM (#3322185)
Incidentally, according to The Biographical History of Baseball Bill McCorry (an open racist) simply lied about Mays, saying he couldn't hit a curve.

You know IF this were actually true, what would this tell us?

1. The pitchers and managers of the other NL teams were incredibly stupid not to throw Mays a curve every pitch.

2. It takes an incredibly smart and gifted player to hit 660 homers and over 3000 hits, while maintaining a batting average of over .300, without being able to hit a curve.
   43. Jolly Old St. Neck Wound, Marching Through Georgia  Posted: September 15, 2009 at 10:56 AM (#3322223)
"Before that black son of a ##### accuses us of being prejudiced, he should learn how to hit an Indian" -- Casey Stengel, October 4, 1952 (reacting to Allie Reynolds' 4-hitter as well as Robinson's criticisms before the series)

I've read that quote elsewhere, and I guess that was the 1952 version of "Manny being Manny." I think it's safe to say that Casey might not have survived the internet age without doing a bit of media management adjustment....
   44. Dizzypaco  Posted: September 15, 2009 at 11:16 AM (#3322251)
No one has broght this up, but the Yankees weren't coming up with white superstars either after the early 1950's. In fact, after Mantle came up in '51, the Yankees never came up with another hall of famer. The late '50's and early 60's Yankees succeeded to the degree they did partly because Mantle/Berra/Ford were so good for so long, and they surrounded them with pretty good, but not great players at almost every position. Not only did the Yankees miss out on Banks and Aaron and Frank Robinson and whoever, but they also missed out on Kaline and Mathews and Killebrew and Brooks Robinson, to name a few. Yes they had resources, but they weren't coming up with any superstars at all after the early '50s, not that that hurt them for the short term.

So while racism surely played a factor in missing out of some of the best prospects of the day, there's no guarantee they would have gotten even without it.
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