Regarding Harper:

As much as A-Rod seemed to let go of his Jeter obsession last year in telling the world they were no longer buddies, he was obviously delighted during spring training when Jeter himself seemed to let go of whatever grudge he'd been holding since the famous Esquire magazine article of 2001.

[...]

As protective as Jeter is of his status as the Yankee shortstop, you know that would change in a hurry if A-Rod were asked to move back to his old position. Truly it wouldn't make sense unless Jeter were out for the season, so Girardi should do both of them a favor today and make it clear it's not something the Yankees are talking about internally.

His rationale is that because Jeter and A-Rod have finally repaired their friendship, moving A-Rod to SS would risk upsetting that development because Jeter, in his opinion, is apparently so thin-skinned that his ego (really his id) couldn't withstand watching A-Rod play SS.

I have wanted Jeter shifted to another position since before A-Rod joined the team, but it's one thing for Jeter to believe that he is good enough to remain at the position when he is healthy, however, it's quite another for him to hold the view that he would be offended by A-Rod playing SS when he is not.

I seriously doubt that Jeter believes that, and I think the real risk of insult to Jeter's psyche is that Harper, or anyone else, would hold that opinion.

The Yankees need to do what makes the most sense given the available alternatives. That is to move A-Rod to SS, and to put Ensberg at 3B, especially since they are on a road trip, so they wouldn't have to deal with any irrational subset of fans. I guess there is nothing that they can do about similarly irrational mediots.

This could get interesting :-0

I don't get to see the Yanks all that much. Is Arod solid enough at 3B to move to SS for a brief stint and then back? I don't mean this as any sort of psychological question, just a real physical one. a) is he up to playing SS? b) will it disrupt his progress at 3B? c) is b even relevant several years after his move to 3B?

wants to continue playing shortstop deep into the decade is troublesome.

Uh, it's 2008. We're fairly deep in the decade.

So for now it falls on Betemit, a natural shortstop who outgrew the position about 40 pounds ago. He’ll stand in the most trafficked position on the field, and he’ll replace a no-doubt Hall of Famer, and he’ll try to swim.

Rodriguez will stand next to him. He last played shortstop full time in 2003. Five years is a long time. And still, the idea just won’t die. It’s so crazy it just might work, and weird as it sounds, that’s the last thing the Yankees need.

It looks to me like Betemit and Arod have the same troubles with playing SS. Given that Arod was the better SS of the two, he may be alright. But I think I'd explore getting a real SS if Jeter is down for a significant period of time.

I don't get to see the Yanks all that much. Is Arod solid enough at 3B to move to SS for a brief stint and then back? I don't mean this as any sort of psychological question, just a real physical one. a) is he up to playing SS? b) will it disrupt his progress at 3B? c) is b even relevant several years after his move to 3B?

By the advanced stats, he's been a pretty average 3B. Of course, he was an excellent SS. I'd imagine he'd be a little below average at SS given aging and weight gain.

I can't see him being any worse than Jeter.

I hope this happens.

A-Rod's first error as a Yankee shortstop is going to be fun.

If Jeter is in the line-up on say, Friday at Fenway Park, all this gnashing of teeth is going to look pretty silly.

I hope Jeter isn't out too long. This could be interesting though. Ensberg and Betemit are both pretty good third baseman. I wonder if they'll go the defensive route and call up the glove nazi, Alberto Gonzalez.

Joe Girardi didn’t say no. Joe Torre would have.

Reporter: Joe, have you given any thought to playing A-Rod at shortstop while jeter is out?

Girardi: I wouldn't say yes but I couldn't say no.

Reporter: Would you say maybe?

Girardi: I might.

How shifty cool would it be if A-Rod moves over to SS...that he has Bob Shepard make HIM a rest-of-my-playing-career-and-bored-road-to-afterlife personalized intro tape.

My fondest hope is they put ARod at short and he does an Ozzie Smith impersonation (with the glove, not bat) for two weeks. Really give the Jeter sycophants/A-Rod haters something to chew on.

They won't do it because they know they'll never get anybody to clean up the mess after Suzyn Waldman's head explodes.

When I read this, I had mixed feelings.

I think A-Rod's legacy among the all-time greats was tarnished a bit when he was moved from SS to 3B. I mean, he's a slam-dunk HOF even if he's a bad fielding 1B, but there would have been some pretty strong arguments for him being the best baseball player of all time (non-Ruth division) if he stayed at short, and part of me is sad to lose that.

That said, assuming A-Rod is a passable SS, it is probably a better use of talent for him to be there while Jeter is out, and I have to root against anything that makes the Yankees better.

I think A-Rod's legacy among the all-time greats was tarnished a bit when he was moved from SS to 3B. I mean, he's a slam-dunk HOF even if he's a bad fielding 1B, but there would have been some pretty strong arguments for him being the best baseball player of all time (non-Ruth division) if he stayed at short, and part of me is sad to lose that.

Concur. He may have given Ruth a run for all time best. 900 HR at SS is hard to beat. :)

This is silly. A-rod is more athletic than Betemit and Ensberg. Stick him at SS. He's not going to be great at SS, he's not great at 3rd. He might be better than Jeter, but not in any sort of clear way that people will notice. They're simply not that different a quality of defensive player at this point in their careers. Whenever Jeter gets healthy, slide A-rod back to third. I think it's pretty simple.

This leg injury and all those to follow probably open the door for Jeter to right next year. Lets hope the rest does him good and he starts hitting the ball hard like he had just started doing.

Cowboy, my question was that is moving Arod to SS likely to screw him up at 3B. I agree he isn't going to be great (again) at SS but will probably be a passable replacement (especially given who he's replacing). But if the cost of that is messing with his 3B defense, it probably isn't worth doing.

Betemit isn't really a shortstop. Two or three years ago he was as bad as Jeter and I can't imagine he's gotten better since then while putting on weight.

Concur. He may have given Ruth a run for all time best. 900 HR at SS is hard to beat. :)

Not impressed. Let's see A-Rod pitch.

But if the cost of that is messing with his 3B defense, it probably isn't worth doing.

Sorry, I was more responding to 11 with my A-rod will not be much better than the Jeter comment. I don't see why it would mess with his ability to play third. Instinctually, I think A-rod is now a third baseman and I don't think a couple of weeks away from third are likely to hurt him when he returns. I mostly want to see him get the HR record for SS. A couple of weeks would do it.

Where is George C. Scott to say, "Aargh! My groin!"?

Yeah, cowboy, I keep thinking it's only been a couple of years at 3B for Arod. I'm old. Sigh.

I think the fear will be the graphic difference in range if A-Rod stays for any lenght of time.

yankee fans haven't watched someone else play short for over a decade. Now, when a ball hit up the middle gets snagged instead of skipping through, the fans will make an unconscious notation in their head like "Hey, that ball was always a single when Jeter played there. What gives? maybe those nerds who say he has no range are right after all!".

I think the fear will be the graphic difference in range if A-Rod stays for any lenght of time.

Do we know this for sure? Rodriguez has played all of eight innings at short since 2003, and none at all since 2005. How do we know that he'll be able to just step back over and it'll be like he never left?

Where is George C. Scott to say, "Aargh! My groin!"?

I wonder what the other George C. Scott would say. For purely racist reasons I think he would turn it into a sexy song ala Chef from Southpark. "Oooooooooohhhh doncha go hurtin my sexy groin like thaaaat! I'm goin to need that sexy groin to make sweeeeeet love to ya woman!"

Now, when a ball hit up the middle gets snagged instead of skipping through, the fans will make an unconscious notation in their head like "Hey, that ball was always a single when Jeter played there. What gives? maybe those nerds who say he has no range are right after all!".

It's always a question of whether you're serious or not. I'll try one more time.

Jeter gets to balls up the middle alot of the time. Just not as often as other SS, the metrics say he misses about 1 play every 7 games. And it's incredibly unlikely that there is any visible difference between what A-rod will be able to do at SS and what Jeter was doing, especially in a short period of time. Jeter will probably look better simply because he's played the position more than twice over the last 5 years.

How do we know that he'll be able to just step back over and it'll be like he never left?

He almost certainly won't be able to.

This will really make A-Rod's fantasy value go through the roof. He'll get two full years of SS eligibility out of this if he plays 5 games, right?

I'm with CP. I don't think it's reasonable to expect Arod to be noticably, if any, better than Jeter at SS after this five years away from the position, on top of normal aging and bulking up.

This will really make A-Rod's fantasy value go through the roof. He'll get two full years of SS eligibility out of this if he plays 5 games, right?

5 games (or 1 depending on league) for this year, but, he'll need 20 to be elligible for next year in most leagues.

ARod is tied for the all time record for most homers by a SS. He had a shot at it a couple years back, in that odd Boston game where Sheff played 3b for an inning, ARod moved to short, something else weird happened in RF.

Was that the Nomar "Top Step" game?

I cannot believe anyone is questioning whether A-Rod could handle a short term move to shortstop. The guy is a world class athlete among world class athletes. We don't question the in-game moves of lesser players from shortstop to second base -- which is a bit like playing in a mirror with regard to the spin of the ball and how it approaches you -- but there's some concern about whether A-Rod will be comfortable moving laterally on the same side of second base? That is ridiculous. I say it takes A-Rod all of about eight seconds to make the adjustment if asked, seven of which will be spent familiarizing himself with Cano.

We don't question the in-game moves of lesser players from shortstop to second base -- which is a bit like playing in a mirror with regard to the spin of the ball and how it approaches you -- but there's some concern about whether A-Rod will be comfortable moving laterally on the same side of second base?

You're saying that it's harder for a shortstop to play second base than it is for a third baseman to play shortstop? I find this dubious.

I cannot believe anyone is questioning whether A-Rod could handle a short term move to shortstop.

No one in this thread is. Someone asked if it might effect his play at third when he returned, that's the closest I could find and that's a reasonable concern.

Someone asked if it might effect his play at third when he returned, that's the closest I could find and that's a reasonable concern.

The question was whether Rodriguez would be better than Jeter at this point. Like you, I don't know if that's so obvious.

I'm pretty sure that Rodriguez wouldn't be a total embarrassment at short.

The question was whether Rodriguez would be better than Jeter at this point. Like you, I don't know if that's so obvious.

I'm pretty sure that Rodriguez wouldn't be a total embarrassment at short.

I don't want to get overly semantic here. I agree with you that how A-rod would fair relative to Jeter and Betemit was the question and I agree he wouldn't be an embarassment. I do not agree that anyone has been questioning whether A-rod can handle SS as Cooperstown Schtick suggested.

You're saying that it's harder for a shortstop to play second base than it is for a third baseman to play shortstop? I find this dubious.

I'm not saying you can throw any old third baseman over to shortstop and wipe your hands. I'm saying that showing concern about A-Rod's five-year absence from being one of the premier shortstops in the league in consideration of moving him back there is more ridiculous and less worthy of discussion than moving a lesser player in-game from shorstop to second.

Generally speaking, though, given a player who has the skills to play all infield positions equally, yes, I think it is easier to move from third to short than from short to second. It was for me, anyway. The footwork and the approach of the ball are much more similar than those on the second base side. The second baseman makes throws much more frequently to the right, which is very rarely done on the left side of the infield, and all of the angles on the right side of the base are very different.

I cannot believe anyone is questioning whether A-Rod could handle a short term move to shortstop.

No one in this thread is. Someone asked if it might effect his play at third when he returned, that's the closest I could find and that's a reasonable concern.

From the article:

He last played shortstop full time in 2003. Five years is a long time.

I took that to mean that the transition would be difficult because of the time involved. It's possible I misread it and he was just saying that it's been five years and the notion of moving A-Rod back won't go away. Sorry if I derailed the conversation. For the record, I believe A-Rod would be a spectacular shortstop, but I also don't have the issues with Jeter's defense that many others do.

I took that to mean that the transition would be difficult because of the time involved. It's possible I misread it and he was just saying that it's been five years and the notion of moving A-Rod back won't go away. Sorry if I derailed the conversation. For the record, I believe A-Rod would be a spectacular shortstop, but I also don't have the issues with Jeter's defense that many others do.

Five years is a long time in a baseball career, particularly when you're talking about hitting the other side of 30.

It seems to me that if Arod had been a shortstop for the past five years, then we'd right about now be wondering if it was time to move him off the position as his defense had begun to deteriorate. The fact that move happened prematurely five years ago doesn't give me tremendous amount of confidence that he would be a long-term defensive plus at SS at this point in his career (particularly since he has bulked up more due to his move to 3B).

But in the short term, I think this move makes sense for the Yankees.

From the article:

My bad, I didn't RTFA. I should have known better.

The relevant questions are, first, is Rodriguez a better shortstop than Wilson Betemit right now? And second, is there heightened injury risk if Rodriguez plays shortstop?

I think the answer to the second question is pretty clearly no, or at least, there's no evidence to suggest that there is. Rodriguez is exceptionally durable and played shortstop for years. The first question... I don't know. Betemit seems to rate statistically as a pretty bad shortstop, so it might be worth trying.

My personal expectation would be that Rodriguez would be a mild improvement over Jeter at shortstop, but still below-average. If Jeter's injury is short-term, you can probably just live with Betemit at short for a few games and avoid the potential press-induced headache of moving Rodriguez over.

I'm not saying you can throw any old third baseman over to shortstop and wipe your hands. I'm saying that showing concern about A-Rod's five-year absence from being one of the premier shortstops in the league in consideration of moving him back there is more ridiculous and less worthy of discussion than moving a lesser player in-game from shorstop to second.

I don't know; his move to 3B didn't go so smoothly. I agree he'd be a passable, perhaps good, substitute at SS. Given spring training, he might even be average or better again (though I doubt it). My only point was that he spent a couple of years reprogramming himself to be a 3B. If that is where he's going to play the bulk of the rest of his career, I'd think twice about moving him about. He's a world class athlete, yes, that doesn't mean he can just simply go out and do whatever you ask of him.

We have to remember, though, this is Derek Jeter we're talking about replacing. It won't take much to compensate for his defensive 'value'.

And Rodriguez played shortstop for many years, and I neither think he's forgotten how, nor do I think playing shortstop now will put undue stress on him and hurt his hitting performance. The only relevant question right now is, we need a shortstop; what's our optimal defensive alignment given the players we have? I think it's Rodriguez at short, Betemit/Ensberg at third, with Giambi perhaps playing more first while Jeter's on the shelf. But, again, if Jeter's only going to miss a week or two, just grimacing and sending Betemit out to shortstop might be worth saving the team the drama the press will whip up over Rodriguez moving over.

But, again, if Jeter's only going to miss a week or two, just grimacing and sending Betemit out to shortstop might be worth saving the team the drama the press will whip up over Rodriguez moving over.

I don't know. Facing down the press furor might be a good "meet the new boss, NOT the same as the old boss" moment for Cashman/Girardi.

If they want to show that they intend to do the right thing, not the popular thing, like with Joba as an eventual starter, Jeter to RF next year, etc., why not draw the line in the sand here?

Well, the right thing is only smarter than the popular thing when it's compellingly the Right Thing. Press relations are very important to any baseball franchise, and that goes quadruple when you're the New York Yankees. Everything is under the microscope. I don't know that the question of Rodriguez at short, Betemit at third vs. Betemit at short, Rodriguez at third is important enough to rock the press boat over, if Jeter's only going to be out two weeks or less.

As for Jeter moving to the outfield... I would have done that years ago, personally, but there just hasn't been any urgency yet, and there won't be until the Yankees stop reaching the playoffs every year.

I don't know; his move to 3B didn't go so smoothly.

The move from SS to 3B is more complex than the reverse. I think #1 is that SS, by comparison, is more of a speed position while 3B is more of a quickness/reflex position. It would intuitively be more difficult to move closer to the batter than farther away. Moving back to SS would be like taking the doughnut off the bat -- in practice A-Rod might be inclined to make some moves too quickly, but by game time I think he would get the timing back.

3B also involves covering less territory laterally and more territory in front of you. Shortstops are generally going to be making a cross step first, where a third baseman is equally likely to have to charge.*

*I actually believe Jeter would be very good at third. He has the arm for it and is excellent at coming in on the ball. The biggest question would be whether he can get comfortable grabbing a ball with his bare hand, which is something, now that I think of it, I don't believe I have ever seen him do, either on a batted or thrown ball. Not to say that he hasn't.

Well, the right thing is only smarter than the popular thing when it's compellingly the Right Thing. Press relations are very important to any baseball franchise, and that goes quadruple when you're the New York Yankees.

Actually, I think press relations are probably less important for the Yankees than virtually any other team.

If they win, no one will give 2 shits what the Post and News are saying. Even if they don't make the playofss this year, the New Stadium will keep the $$$ rolling in for a couple of years, and there's no way they won't be competitive in the long run with a $200M payroll. They've also got their own propaganda channel in YES to get the company line across.

I think there is a lot of value in Cashman establishing a Billy Beane-esque, "we don't give a #### what anyone else thinks", message. Santana was a great first step. This can be #2. Joba to the rotation, #3.

Jeter gets to balls up the middle alot of the time. Just not as often as other SS, the metrics say he misses about 1 play every 7 games. And it's incredibly unlikely that there is any visible difference between what A-rod will be able to do at SS and what Jeter was doing, especially in a short period of time. Jeter will probably look better simply because he's played the position more than twice over the last 5 years.


I agree that it would be incredibly difficult to detect something on the order of 1 play per 7 games by just watching the games.

The biggest criticism of Jeter, and where a superior defensive player could make the most dramatic difference, is his range, particularly his range going to his left side. Even if A-Rod were to be much better, it would be very difficult to notice the difference, particularly over a short period of time. In fact, to a casual observer, the inferior player quite frequently looks better, because he makes plays that appear to be harder or closer than they would be for the better defender.

My impression is that Jeter handles a lot of the other defensive duties of a SS fairly well, so it's hard to make much ground there.

But does A-Rod want to go to a different position on a temporary basis? He might consider it distracting - or even disrespectful. If he's reluctant that ought to be the end of the matter, there's no reason to mess with your star player.

Regardless of his ability to play SS, I think the Yankees would be crazy to jerk around their best hitter so they can have a slight upgrade at SS for 5 days. If it was the whole season, that would be another story. In the past, it appears that external circumstances sometimes effect AROD and I would worry that a switch to short for a few days might just throw this guy off. So what if you lose a run in the field (or with the bat if you brought up a Gonzalez type)- imagine what would happen if AROD would go into one those "in his head" slumps and messed up his beautiful plate mechanics.

A-Rod could fill-in at SS, but I doubt there is much reason for him to do so unless Jeter is out for more than a few games. Betemit may not be great, but at least he has been working out regularly at SS as the primary backup. A-Rod hasn't played SS for 5 years, other than an emergency inning or two, and presumably isn't taking ground balls there when Jeter's not looking. I wouldn't put A-Rod in the possibly uncomfortable position with so little to be gained. Move A-Rod and you also weaken third base with whatever combination of Betemit/Ensberg you go with.

*I actually believe Jeter would be very good at third. He has the arm for it and is excellent at coming in on the ball. The biggest question would be whether he can get comfortable grabbing a ball with his bare hand, which is something, now that I think of it, I don't believe I have ever seen him do, either on a batted or thrown ball. Not to say that he hasn't.

Actually, the biggest question is whether he reacts quick enough when the ball comes off the bat. Based on the video that was posted last year, I'd say Jeter at third would be a huge mistake.

In the past, it appears that external circumstances sometimes effect AROD and I would worry that a switch to short for a few days might just throw this guy off [...] imagine what would happen if AROD would go into one those "in his head" slumps

Oy, it's worse than asking a soprano to sing a mezzo role :)

Actually, the biggest question is whether he reacts quick enough when the ball comes off the bat. Based on the video that was posted last year, I'd say Jeter at third would be a huge mistake.

Some day I am going to complete my internal programming so that the first question that pops into my head doesn't, by default, become "the biggest question." It's a known issue.

You are, of course, completely correct, and your specific conclusion about Jeter is very interesting. I never saw that video - could you, perhaps, point me in a direction where I might track it down? What is it a video of?

I'm just throwing this out there. Anybody think the possibility exists that one of the reasons Torre was fired is because he was too close to the veterans like Jeter and Rivera and they needed someone to come in who isn't in awe of them and who would make the tough decisions?

I remember, when Kevin Kennedy was fired by the Red Sox, that was one of the main reason. He was a little too loyal to certain veterans, and didn't maintain quite enough professional distance.

In fact, to a casual observer, the inferior player quite frequently looks better, because he makes plays that appear to be harder or closer than they would be for the better defender.

That syndrome is why a lot of Yankee fans have watched Jeter for years and think he is a "superior" fielder.

Anybody think the possibility exists that one of the reasons Torre was fired is because he was too close to the veterans like Jeter and Rivera and they needed someone to come in who isn't in awe of them and who would make the tough decisions?

Absolutely. Girardi confronts tough decisions head on, Torre always wandered around them. Girardi brought Joba in in the 7th with two on and no one out saved the Yanks a game even though it was risky. Torre never would have done that. Girardi tells everyone to run this offseason, Torre never told anyone to do that, Cashman/Bowa had to make sure that Cano took his conditioning seriously. Torre even DHed Damon over Matsui, despite Damon being a far superior defensive player to the Matsui because Matsui took pride in playing left. Moose was forced to throw inside yesterday, even though he said he didn't want to, Matsui is DHing, the young guys are pitching relief in close games, Betemit and Duncan are getting regular ABs.

Can I just say that a week into the season, I love Joe Girardi as a manager.

ARod is tied for the all time record for most homers by a SS.

Is he really tied? According the splits on BB-Ref, Ripken had 345 homers as an SS, vs. 344 for A-Rod.

They won't do it because they know they'll never get anybody to clean up the mess after Suzyn Waldman's head explodes.

There's not enough in there to make much of a mess.

I never saw that video - could you, perhaps, point me in a direction where I might track it down? What is it a video of?

There was a wide-angle shot linked here sometime last year that showed all of the Yankee defenders reacting as the ball came off the bat. Jeter was noticably behind all of them, including if I'm not mistaken the first baseman. I don't remember where it came from, though perhaps one of the Yankee fans might (I seem to recall Larry M. being involved in the thread, though I could be mistaken).

The Yankees reportedly have Betemit at short for today's game against the Royals.

Thanks, SoSH U. I'll see if I can track it down.