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Mets, Dodgers, Giants and Red Sox fans, I feel your pain.
Scott Boras is a genius. Pure genius.
with two little paragraphs released on some blog somewhere, he has the Yankee's back peddling, and got their cash back on the table ..
genius!
Very nice...
Only if he comes out better than he would have been negotiating an extension in the first place.
I think that his particular genius moment was manifested by getting John Sterling to join his plot.
This is true, but who said anything about 8/220?
And how much of a risk is it really? If A-Rod just uses them to bid his price up, A-Rod will look like the villain, and the Yankees won't have lost anything: A-Rod still won't be on the team and the Yanks' credibility vis-a-vis not negotiating because of the lost Texas money will still be intact because all negotiations took place under the condition that A-Rod would be making "sacrifices." In an odd way, that scenario might actually help New York because it may cause a competing team to pay more for A-Rod than they otherwise would have.
with two little paragraphs released on some blog somewhere, he has the Yankee's back peddling, and got their cash back on the table ..
genius!
*Searching for the roll eyes emoticon*
I was going off $275M/10, and 10 years seemed too long.
$220M/8 seems just about right.
Maybe $230M so Boras can claim the biggest contract ever.
I can just see the initial meeting...Alex, "how can we restore your rep, get the 10 years, keep you at NY AND get around $280mil", says Borass.
Its brilliant, I hate that bastard Boras...but damn is he good.
And of course it just made Boston's Lowell negotiations a tad less complicated.
It does, but that's not being discussed apparently. The extra 55 million for A-Rod when he is 40+ is huge.
Posted: October 28, 2007 at 10:11 PM (#2597770)
There is no way that the Yankees will sit on the sidelines while Boras shops ARod around. None.
Posted: October 28, 2007 at 10:11 PM (#2597770)
There is no way that the Yankees will sit on the sidelines while Boras shops ARod around. None.
Nostradomus(sp?) of the 21st century! So soothsayer of our times, will the BoSox win again in 2008?
The Yankees initial offer was 5/150 extension or 8/231, provided you trust the papers. If Boras had negotiated, I can easily see a deal for two years longer and more than the 275 A-Rod is apparently going to get. And he could get that without the bad feelings and bad press A-Rod incurred from all the World Series announcement fiasco. Say what you want, the general impression is that A-Rod had to circumvent Boras to get the Yankee money. Where is the genius?
no.
Its the Chinese year of the friar next season.
And the Red Sox are not going to win in 2008.
I don't particularly case what the general impression is. The only people that matter as far as Boras is concerned are his clients. I think "this guy is so good that the Yankees have to try and strong arm him to avoid being taken advantage of" is a big draw for potential clients.
A) "I'm one lucky dude."
B) "Hey, Scott, just sent your check to the Caymans as agreed. It's been a pleasure doing business with you."
C) "Wonder if Neifi Perez would be ours for 3/21?"
Rodriguez did not cost the Yankees $21M by opting out. He cost them $30M. You don't pay luxury tax on money that other teams pay your players.
You can argue that Boras doesn't care about public perception however you want. How does this episode raise his profile in the eyes of his clients? Follow Boras' strategy so you can have your friends contact the team you want to go to and negotiate without him? Follow Boras so you can get the same amount of money the team offers and much more hostility from fans?
You mean they're going to go 0-162? That's a pretty ballsy prediction.
play forown the Dominican Republic, huh?Fixed
I think Boras is on the phone while the negotiations are on-going, and once the Yankees have a number and they start discussing "other issues", he immediately shops the deal by phone to 5 or 6 other teams, high bidder taking all.
Then A-Rod gets a text message, tells the Yankees he cannot agree on the other issues, but he is glad he talked to them, walks out and signs a better deal before the week is out.
Assuming he screwed up to begin with (which it appears likely that he did, but none of us really knows), his genius is apparent in the subsequent damage control,
I'd be amazed if politicians haven't asked for his advice after screwing the pooch
If he gives a discount to compensate for the lost Texas subsidy while still receiving a generous contract, A-Rod can say that he didn’t fully understand Boras’s strategy but trusted his agent. When he saw things comes apart, he felt he had to take the initiative to set things right so he can do what he has stated the last couple of years--finish his career in the Bronx.
Personally, if this is true and from Rodriguez himself, my hats off to A-Rod and I may just may return to my rabid fandom. Marvin Miller, Curt Flood and others didn't sacrifice so much just so players could switch masters; from the owners to the agents and the salary bar. They fought for a player's right to choose where he wanted his career to go.
If A-Rod is standing up and saying 'Dammit, this is what I want and I'm going to make it happen' then I salute the man. That's what the MLBPA was supposed to be about--a player being the master of his destiny.
Best Regards
John
Shocked, I am! Shocked!
Who could possibly have predicted that the Yankees would take a ridiculously tough initial stance, and then go back on their word?
Wasn't it the MLBPA who scuttled his deal with Boston on the grounds that he was giving too much back?
Arguing against Boras fanboys is like arguing with the ignorant subset of Yankees fans. So A-Rod is going to get his 275 million. Maybe he gets that without Boras because he is a very very good player? Isn't he actually getting that without Boras' legendary negotiating skills? It's like saying "count da ringz" in response to "Jeter is not a good defender."
Boras is a historically great agent in the same way Jeter is a great shortstop. But the press they get made them out to be superhuman or magical or what have you. They are human and they make mistakes. Boras makes good deals, he's also capable of misreading the market or strategic pratfalls. I don't see why it's difficult to see that.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
Guards! Make sure the Boras doesn't leave this room until I come and get him.
GUARD #1:
Not to leave the room even if you come and get him.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
No, no. Until I come and get him.
GUARD #1:
Until you come and get him, we're not to enter the room.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
No, no. No. You stay in the room and make sure he doesn't leave.
GUARD #1:
And you'll come and get him.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
Right.
GUARD #1:
We don't need to do anything apart from just stop him entering the room.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
No, no. Leaving the room.
GUARD #1:
Leaving the room. Yes.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
All right?
GUARD #1:
Right.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
Right.
GUARD #1:
Oh, if-- if-- if, uhh-- if-- if-- w-- ehh-- i-- if-- if we--
HANK STEINBRENNER:
Yes? What is it?
GUARD #1:
Oh, i-- if-- i-- oh--
HANK STEINBRENNER:
Look, it's quite simple.
GUARD #1:
Uh...
HANK STEINBRENNER:
You just stay here and make sure 'e doesn't leave the room. All right?
GUARD #2:
Hic!
HANK STEINBRENNER:
Right.
GUARD #1:
Oh, I remember. Uhh, can he leave the room with us?
HANK STEINBRENNER:
N-- no, no. No. You just keep him in here and make sure he--
GUARD #1:
Oh, yes. We'll keep him in here, obviously, but if he had to leave and we were with him--
HANK STEINBRENNER:
No, no, no, no. Just keep him in here--
GUARD #1:
Until you or anyone else--
HANK STEINBRENNER:
No, not anyone else. Just me.
GUARD #1:
Just you.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
Get back.
GUARD #1:
Get back.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
All right?
GUARD #1:
Right. We'll stay here until you get back.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
And, uh, make sure he doesn't leave.
GUARD #1:
What?
HANK STEINBRENNER:
Make sure 'e doesn't leave.
GUARD #1:
Boras?
HANK STEINBRENNER:
Yes. Make sure 'e doesn't leave.
GUARD #1:
Oh, yes, of course.
GUARD #1:
Ah. I thought you meant him (the other guard). You know, it seemed a bit daft me havin' to guard him when he's a guard.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
Is that clear?
GUARD #1:
Oh, quite clear. No problems.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
Right. Where are you going?
GUARD #1:
We're coming with you.
HANK STEINBRENNER:
No, no. I want you to stay here and make sure 'e doesn't leave.
GUARD #1:
Oh, I see. Right.
If that is the case then it's equally plausible that it's more genius on A-Rod's part for making Boras the fall guy than anything Boras does. The public perception certainly is A-Rod tossing Boras overboard.
Screwing up and tossing under the bus people who work for you is SOP for politicians. See Elliot Spitzer and his aides for a very recent example.
I think we have to see the deal before we can say the Yanks materially changed their position. If A-Rod is now saying I'll take your original offer minus the now gone Texas money, the Yanks haven't changed their position, A-Rod has changed his. It's not totally clear, but A-Rod's statement on his website seems to suggest that he is doing something to meet the Yankees' concerns about the Texas money.
When someone says, "Jeter is not a good defender", I can point to innumerable pieces of evidence, from Zone Rating to BIS +/- to the Fan's Scouting Report, to my observations, that demonstrate, or at least strongly suggest that Jeter is a poor defensive player.
When someone says "Boras is a great agent", exactly what evidence do you point to in order to disprove the claim? The analogy fails because there's nothing there to point to.
Given that, I take the big picture evidence - the high quality contracts that Boras secures and his popularity among his players and the loyalty of his clients - as clearly showing his strength as an agent.
Also, there were a ton of posts here at BTF about how 8/230 was going to be the best offer ARod would get, and that Boras was an idiot for not taking it. Now we see that those geniuses were much worse at reading the market than Boras, but still, you claim with no evidence that he hasn't done well.
EDIT: See Sam's post #247. He makes the better point - Stein Spawn A said "Good-bye." This is not good-bye.
You sacrifice by taking a huge salary most other union members can't even dream of? Sounds like a seriously crooked longshoremen chapter :-)
It'd be more accurate to say that Boras makes GREAT deals that no other agent does (at least not until Boras shows the way), he's also capable of misreading the market or strategic pratfalls. I don't see why it's difficult to see that.
His record in arbitration.
That is, I'm sorry to say, false. That would not represent a change from the position the Yankees should have taken. But it is a manifest change from the position they DID take, which is that if A-Rod opted out, they would not participate in any negotiations with him, period, and he would not return to the Yankees, period.
The only reasonable way to look at this, it seems to me, is that if A-Rod returns to the Yankees, they caved on that core position. Period. Now, whether A-Rod also gave in substantially (or at all) will depend on the terms of the deal. But the Yankees could not have been clearer in the days after A-Rod opted out, and saying that their position then included the option of him returning is revisionist history.
Schilling is the archetypical union rep and he trashed out a clearly non-optimal deal, so I don't really think this is perceived as a problem by the union.
I was talking about the very specific situation that John referred to, in which ARod would ditch Boras due to the Yankees' demands / blackmail. I was saying that this is the sort of sacrifice that the union ought to step in to prevent, because other players should not be subject to this sort of blackmail.
Well said MCoA, but I'm pretty sure Srul's tongue was firmly in his cheek when he wrote that.
Having said that, I could see the union's point for nixing the A-Rod to Boston deal for the greater good. It would've set a bad precedent possibly getting other players to renegotiate for a lower amount--especially after an off year.
Best Regards
John
No that is the Yankee fanboy perception.
Yankee fanboy woke up this morning with all the major news networks in their area claiming A Rod tossed Boras under the bus, crawled back to the Yankees, and is in the process of writing his apology to the Yankee fans worldwide.
everybody else realizes this is a tactic.
what sounds more logical to you?
Can't see how that could be a problem for the union.
About players in general being masters of their destiny. It was nice to see A-Rod do just that.
At any rate MCoA (been up waay toooo long) we're in agreement regardless of what I may have written. I think I knew what I thought I supposed I was thinking when I surmised that point of view of my opinion. Of course that's subject to revision if the opinion I surmised when I was thinking regarding what I supposed I thought turns out not be be what I actually thought I was writing about then.
I can't be any clearer than that.
Best Regards
John
Is there anything that could possibly happen to the Yankees that wouldn't fill you with glee over their misfortune?
It's not difficult to see it. You just haven't presented any evidence that it happened <u>in this particular case</u>. At a minimum, we know that one party in the negotiations issued a public ultimatum -- if ARod opts out, the Yankees will not negotiate with him at all -- and then backed down.
And the best evidence (which, admittedly, is not at all certain) is that this same party that backed down then made an offer significantly higher than it did before.
Assuming arguendo that A-Rod is being overpaid, why in hell would a Yankee fan care about that? I think it safe to assume the Yankees aren't going to have to file Chapter 11 as a result. Are fans rooting for the scoreboard or the balance sheet?
So basically Boras has been reduced to a ceremonial role. I'll only believe that A-Rod's change of heart is due to Boras' carefully manipulated moves if he ends up with more money than the reported amount that the Yank were set to offer before he opted out. Otherwise, this has been a total disaster for Boras. Sure one of his clients just negotiated the largest contract in baseball (sports?) history, but it was done with him sitting on the sidelines and he could have negotiated for more money if he didn't have A-Rod opt out (assuming of course that the Yanks' reported pre-opt out offer is to be believed). And he's torched, but not necessarily burned, a bridge with one of the wealthiest teams in baseball.
Well you do have a point, but "% raise" is misleading as well- you have to look at how good his players in arbitration are, their experience, etc.
BTW per the New Yorker his recent track record in Arbitration is awful- a combination of two factors
1: He overreaches
2: Collusion of a sort- the league has allegedly kept track of his arbitration arguments and submissions and shares it with the teams- Boras has apparently made too many contradictory claims to maintain any kind of credibility in front of the arbitrators-
You don't think that matters to the Steinboys? A lot? Most Yankee fans who actually live in the NY metro area read the News and the Post every day, and believe what they read.
Are fans rooting for the scoreboard or the balance sheet?
Neither. The laundry.
Well, we have a "high-ranking Yankee source" talking about a 10/275 extension. Obviously things could be incorrect, but there is a leak from the Yankees organization that they are negotiating. That's good enough for me.
As a Yankee fan, I really don't care how much they spend on Alex Rodriguez so long as it doesn't hamper them from acquiring other good players. To this point, I don't really see any evidence that they will be so hampered. I like watching him play baseball. If he can squeeze a lot of money out of the Steinbrenners without crippling their ability to pay other players, I say, "Good for him. He deserves it."
Which reported amount? The 5/150 extension they were reportedly going to offer on top of the 3/72 he still had coming? Or that, plus the extra $10M he could have had under the 2008 and 2009 opt-outs in the last contract? Or that, minus the Texas money? Or the 10/294 total they were reportedly ready to go to if he'd negotiated during the ten day window?
Sorry but I haven't read all the posts on this subject. Where was it reported that A-Rod has more money on the table now than what the Yanks offered before he opted out?
No, it's thinking from the "I don't know what their salary limits are because they don't seem to have reached them" school. I'm sure there is a limit, but hell if I know what it is. Besides, they will be clearing quite a lot of salary being paid out to non- and under-contributors like Pavano, Mussina, and Giambi rather soon.
I don't root for the team to be financially efficient. I root for them to win baseball games. Alex Rodriguez will likely be a very good baseball player for quite awhile yet.
My position on reading articles that cite un-named sources is apparently different than yours. I think that you have to parse everything in these kinds of stories in the way that minimizes what is actually attributable to the source and maximizes what is speculation on the writers' part. So I don't think there's a source for that number other than Mark Feinsand's butt. Obviously, you disagree, and that's fine. I don't want to argue the point, just clarify where I'm coming from.
expected to take a 10-year deal worth roughly $275 million
That's the only information we have, and it's already "more money than the reported amount that the Yanks were set to offer before he opted out." So what possible basis is there, based upon the information we have, for sneering at Boras?
---
Better than J.D. Drew at $14 million.
But unless there's a salary cap, why should anybody care? It'll be a sunk cost, and won't have any effect on their ability to sign anybody else.
Well yeah, ascertaining the exact dollar amount of what the Yanks offered is a fruitless task because they're political figures which is why I didn't even bother putting out a figure in my post. We'll see if A-Rod "firing" Boras is just a tactical ploy employed by Boras to reengage the Yanks in the bidding. I'm skeptical but it's just a hunch.
I just think that Yankee haters should subscribe to one school or the other, not both. If one hates the Yankees because of their unlimited wealth, then one can't be expected to be taken seriously when criticizing the Yankees for their bad contracts. There's no such thing as a bad contract for the Yankees. Bwa-ha-ha-ha.
If, OTOH, one thinks that this or any other contract or combination of contracts will hamstring the Yankees at some point in the future, then one has to stop pissing and moaning about how unfair it is that the Yankees can absorb any number of bad contracts without missing a beat. Pick a side, dammit. Even kevin can do that much.
I don't think a secret bid auction is a good comparison to a free agent contract negotiation. Presumably, the Yankees submitted a bid for Matsuzaka which they thought would be high enough. Lamentably, they were mistaken. That's a miscalculation, not stinginess. Recent Yankees missteps (Pavano, Wright, Womack) have been miscalculations, not cheap-skate moves.
Well, someone's cheek, anyway.
(*) I mean, someone whose team paid one hundred million dollars for a mediocre pitcher probably shouldn't throw stones at a team which would be re-signing the league MVP.
Oops, sorry about that David, I thought I read somewhere that A-Rod was offering himself for a discounted price that accounts for the money that the Yanks lost from Texas when he opted out. If he's about to sign a 10 year, $275 contract, and if that's more than what Yanks were about to offer pre-opt out (whatever that exact figure is, this appears to be the case), then yes, Boras has done quite well.
So they miscalculated badly. And that team could well have missed the playoffs without Clemens. He wasn't anything special, but he was fairly decent and certainly quite a bit better than the Karstenses and DeSalvos of the world. Igawa didn't work out very well, I will aver.
Sounds possible. Could well have been their calculation. Don't have any actual reason to say it's more likely than a pure whiff on how the bidding was going to go.
Last month – in the offer Boras and Rodriguez would not let the Yankees make – the team was prepared to add five years and about $150 million to the three years and $91 million on Rodriguez’s existing deal. Through negotiation, the Yankees probably would have stretched the extension to seven years, through 2017.
In that scenario, though, the Rangers would have paid $30 million of the $91 million Rodriguez was owed from 2008 through 2010. Since the Yankees want that money back from Rodriguez, they would try to re-sign him now for 10 years and about $270 million.
So basically A-Rod had 8 year, $241 on the table, he's now getting 10 years, $270. So A-Rod is "sacrificing" less money per year to make up for the $30 million he cost the Yanks?
Check your arithmetic, Bird. A seven year extension at $30M per on top of the three years he had left -- that's $252-301M, depending on how you value the balance of the prior contract.
Who said they were inexhaustible? To this point, I don't perceive that they have been exhausted, but I'm sure they would be at some point if they kept increasing payroll.
I'm just reporting what the NY Times said. They're quoting 5 years (not seven), $150, plus the 3 years, $91 on A-Rod's existing deal before he opted out. ESPN is reporting that A-Rod is taking $20 million less that what on the table before he opted out. Of course, we should probably wait until A-Rod actually signs a contract before assessing what was won or lost through A-Rod's strategy.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3109894
"Even if Rodriguez re-signs with the Yankees while retaining Boras as his agent, a negotiation that does not include the high-profile agent will be viewed within the industry as the first enormous defeat for the agent, because of how the talks have played out; because of the possible damage to Rodriguez's image in recent weeks; and because Rodriguez will be asked by the Yankees to take some $20 million less than they were willing to pay before the slugger opted out of his previous deal."
Maybe they're close. It's possible. I don't know, but I just don't see any moves that were clearly motivated by a need to cut or avoid taking on salary.
Perhaps that's why they bid too low for Matsuzaka. That's certainly possible. But I don't know that it's any more probable than that they figured their bid for Matsuzaka would be good enough and were simply mistaken.
(*) I mean, someone whose team paid one hundred million dollars for a mediocre pitcher probably shouldn't throw stones at a team which would be re-signing the league MVP.
I think it's a bit premature to be calling Matsuzaka a mediocrity.
It's a nice thought, but you know someone is going to say that it was a plant, and the Yanks did this so that they could save face while paying A-rod $280 Million or something like that. Whatever, as long as he signs, I don't care who got the better of who.
Concur. When my team ends up with the best free agent available, that's a good thing.
Edit: Assuming my team does end up with said player, of course. Unhatched chickens and all that.
I agree. What I like about that passage though is that Madden accounts for the elevator kick-ins. So many commentators here have ignored those.
Is any other team likely to beat that?
That's why I thought he wouldn't opt out, if he wanted to remain a Yankee. But he did opt out. I concluded he just didn't want to be a Yankee. Now it appears he was willing to remain a Yankee,but he was willing to put the 20M in play to either test the market or the Yankees resolve.
Perhaps A-rod thought the Yankees would blink; perhaps he thought the market would be different. We don't know. We do know that A-rod blinked. It's far from over, (and I don't underestimate Boras's abilities in the end game) but right now it looks like he's going to sign for something pretty close to what the Yankees were prepared to pay before the opt out. Upshot: A-Rod loses the $21M and needs to do some serious damage control to repair his image.
What's been reported is that the Yankees, who took the clear stand that they would not negotiate with ARod after he opted out, have decided to negotiate with ARod after he opted out.
(Now, per IE's reading, you can dispute that what's been reported is true. But that's all we've got, and it in no way indicates that ARod blinked, but rather that the Yankees did.)
It's possible for nobody to get the better of the other. Who cares who "blinked"?
Negotiating positions are just that, negotiating positions.
Haven't you guys ever negotiated a job offer where you say you couldn't think about moving for less than a 20% raise, and they say everyone gets two weeks vacation to start; but when they offer 15% you agree, and you insist on 4 weeks and they agree?
If ARod is the Yankees best option, and the Yankees are ARod's best option, they will reach an agreement, and nonbody needs to end up being screwed.
But what does it matter to the Yankees? As long as they can later spin it that they stood their ground and Rodriguez came back to them, they will not (to the extent it even matters) have sacrificed credibility in their negotiating stance. If people call them out on their spin, so what, they have the cover they need. Beyond credibility in future negotiations, what future significance does any of this gamesmanship have?
I'm just enjoying this because of all the people defending the Yankees "good-bye" stance when ARod left, which I said was stupid, and which I said they'd surely not keep up.
Say you go to buy a car. You make a take it or leave offer; salesman says leave it; you walk out of the showroom; salesman follows you into the parking lot. Who blinked?
Matt Clement,
Why do you think A-Rod won't get close to the ten year/$325 million deal that you predicted?
Yeah, but whether or not it was stupid depends on whether it had any effect in getting them to wherever they end up. Taken at face value, the stance does not appear to have alienated Rodriguez (which could be untrue of course), so the question will be did it save them any money? That remains to be seen (and may never be known).
Eh, if I was wrong, so be it, my team will be better for it.
Oh, I only meant it was stupid insofar as they actually meant it. As a negotiating ploy, sure, whatever.
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