Ian Kennedy seems like the type of pitcher the Twins would target. Still, I have to imagine if the Dodgers rumor was true they'd much prefer that.

Is there any chance Jones looks for a one year deal so he can test free agency again on a high note?

Wow, way to change the subject.

They believe a package of Melky Cabrera, Chien-Ming Wang, and Ian Kennedy would entice the Twins for Johan Santana.

Do it, Cashman.

the Yanks are expected to make “eye-popping” offers to retain Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera before the World Series ends.

Just like Joe Torre's eyes popped when he received his offer?

Still, I have to imagine if the Dodgers rumor was true they'd much prefer that.

I'd rather have Wang, Kennedy and Milky Way than the Dodgers offer of Kemp and Kershaw (if that was indeed the offer).

I'd rather have Wang, Kennedy and Milky Way than the Dodgers offer of Kemp and Kershaw (if that was indeed the offer).

Really? The #1 pitching prospect (and I know that's scary to count on...) and a young OFer with star potential?

Maybe I'm just overcompensating for being a Yankee fanboy, but I'd rather take the chance with the Dodgers players since I don't think Kennedy or Melky will be anything more than average.

BTF is linking to mlbtraderumors now?! really?

If I were the Twins, I'd do the deal for Kershaw, Kemp and Hu for Santana. Stick Kemp in center if he can handle it, Hu or Bartlett at short, the other at second.

If an offer of Kemp and Kershaw is on the table, I don't see how the Twins take Wang, Kennedy and Cabrera over that, unless they think they can compete immediately after losing their best player. Wang is exactly the kind of pitcher the Twins always liked in the Ryan years, and Cabrera fills an outfield hole for the Twins, but . . . I don't know. Kemp > Cabrera, in my mind, and there's a strong possibility that Kershaw -- not next year, but a couple-three years out -- > Wang+Kennedy.

Maybe that's just the part of me who would be very, very sad to see Santana in pinstripes, on any of a number of levels, though.

Rowand, on the other hand, is a totally baffling player, and I think if the Yanks give him an enormous deal, there's about an equal chance that he bcomes the most-hated sports figure in New York and that he becomes the most-loved. Well, second-most.

BTF is linking to mlbtraderumors now?! really?

First, its a good site...So occasionally, why not? Some posts are discussion worthy and varying degrees of credibility.

Second, That offer for Johan isn't as good as it seems. The Twins have plenty of young pitching, what they need is more power bats in the equation, which the Dodgers seemingly have more of to offer. Also, note how there are no top flight prospects in that deal even pitching wise, whereas the Dodger rumor had Kershaw (equivalent would be Hughes or Joba).

WHo is a good bat in the Yankees system now? Tabata? It'd probably have to be something like Tabata, Melky and Hughes for Santana and the right to negotiate a contract.

As a Sox fan a Rowand deal would be good, as none of his comps (BBRef just released the new ones today) were any good in their 30's.

People forget how young Melky is; while yes he regressed a bit this year, something you don't want to see as a player goes from age 21 to 22, his comp list has 3 HoFers on it, and 4 more good players who had decent careers. Wang, if you like, has 1 HoFer, but a mixed bag after that.

First, its a good site...So occasionally, why not? Some posts are discussion worthy and varying degrees of credibility.

A rumors site should be judged on the accuracy of its rumors, not on the discussion it generates. So no, it's not a good site. It's worthless. I think it's 0 for 439 right now.

I think it's 0 for 439 right now.

Wow, and even a stopped clock would have predicted some things right, like Clemens going to the Astros.

Someone should really do a meta-analysis of the accuracy of these sites.

As a Sox fan a Rowand deal would be good, as none of his comps (BBRef just released the new ones today) were any good in their 30's.

Until they adjust for context, the BBRef comps won't be worth much.

Which isn't to say that simply looking at Rowand's career should be enough to make one wary of paying him very much for very long.

I have sources. Bill and Tom down at the coffee shop, they claim the Yankees are targetting 'good players' and will probably 'pay too much', but 'they'd prefer not to'.

There's no way the Yankees are dumb enough to give up all that for Santana

I have sources. Bill and Tom down at the coffee shop, they claim the Yankees are targetting 'good players' and will probably 'pay too much', but 'they'd prefer not to'.

My sources at Tom's Diner in Dormont tell me the Pirates are unlikely to outbid the Yankees for any of those 'good players'.

This site seems like the baseball equivalent of Pro Football Talk. I will give PFT credit for at least not being 0-fer. Although they probably have thrown a lot more sh!t aganst the wall and even a blind squirrel sometimes finds a nut.

A rumors site should be judged on the accuracy of its rumors, not on the discussion it generates. So no, it's not a good site. It's worthless. I think it's 0 for 439 right now.

Uh, they don't make up their own rumors. It's a dumping ground for rumors started by regional papers, or Ken Rosenthal. The format is "Hey, Peter Gammons hints at this. I think this about that speculation. What do you think?" It isn't "My man on the inside says this. BE READY, Y'ALL!!!"

I think I have read a post or two that cited anonymous sources, but it certainly isn't the standard format. It's a good site.

A source of mine with Yankee connections had some good info for me today. Much was discussed yesterday in Tampa.

I don't know this site, so maybe this one isn't indicative, but that seems like it's exactly what they're doing.

Look, I enjoy some trash reading every now, and I won't apologize for it. But I don't try and disguise it as something it's not.

Now Bill and Tom, they're hooked in. They're already had the scoop in 17, but I thought it was too hot to release right now.

They're already had the scoop in 17, but I thought it was too hot to release right now.

Yeah, I could get burned.

Yeah, I actually, you know, clicked on the link and saw that this post was exactly what I was claiming was rare for the site. But go down the page; it really is more of a link dump with instant analysis than a hott rumorz site. As the site's grown, I'm sure they've picked up a couple of interesting sources. If they are legitimate sources -- not Timmy the intern -- I don't see why the speculation would be so objectionable.

If I were the Twins, I'd do the deal for Kershaw, Kemp and Hu for Santana.

Well, that's quite a bit more than "just" Kemp and Kershaw. I'd do that deal as well, and I'm not the Twins.

Basically, Wang and Kennedy are far surer "things" than Kershaw. I know the latter is supposed to be the second coming of Greg Miller... and maybe he is the second coming of Greg Miller. I do think the Twins will extract premium price if they trade Santana; as a Dbacks fan, I'd be quite happy to see the Dodgers trade three young high ceiling players for one year of Santana.

I don't see why the speculation would be so objectionable.

I personally don't object. I even link to the site for the hell of it. Gotta waste time at work somehow. Just don't personally think it has much value. And ripping on the site every once in a while when the opportunity arises..... Especially if I happen to be drunk and watching a college football game between Kansas and Colorado while waiting for baseball. Well, sometimes I just can't help myself.

Wang is going into arbitration, I don't see how the twins would take him. Unless they intend to flip him to somewhere else.

"Rowand's a warrior. We gotta have more warriors on this team!"
"Yes sir, Hal, I mean, Mr. Steinbrenner."

Wang is going into arbitration, I don't see how the twins would take him. Unless they intend to flip him to somewhere else.

He won't be too expensive this year and I doubt in his final arb year he'd be anymore expensive than Santana is right now.

I still think Johan will end up on the Dodgers.

Basically, Wang and Kennedy are far surer "things" than Kershaw. I know the latter is supposed to be the second coming of Greg Miller... and maybe he is the second coming of Greg Miller.

funny, a dbacks fan talking about another team's disappointing star prospect.


If I were the Yankees, I would not hesitate to offer that deal since they will be able to afford to lock Santana up long term and money is a non issue for them to fill the holes they leave open by trading Melky and Kennedy.

Besides, I can't see the Yanks going with a rotation next year of 3 young guns in kennedy, chamberlain and hughes.

As for the Dodgers, I personally don't think its a smart move to abandon your youth movement plan when its so close to being completed. Stay the path unless you want to give Arod 250 million dollars.

funny, a dbacks fan talking about another team's disappointing star prospect.

funny, a dbacks team full of disappointing star prospects wins the most games in the NL.

and wouldn't you know it, no one calls them cancers in the clubhouse on top of that...

The point still stands. But changing the subject works too I guess.

I'd want Chamberlain instead of Wang if I were the Twins. Do you really want Wang in that semi-artificial-ish surface?

Do you really want Wang in that semi-artificial-ish surface?

Not the most tasteful way to hit on a woman who's had plastic surgery.

Do you really want Wang in that semi-artificial-ish surface?

They've been trotting Carlos Silva, the poor man's Wang, out there for the last four seasons, clearly it doesn't discourage them.

There's no way the Yankees are dumb enough to give up all that for Santana

That's very funny. The Yankees would be dumb to not trade those guys for Santana if the Twins would do it.

And in the non-Santana part of our thread...

For starters, the Yanks are expected to make “eye-popping” offers to retain Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera before the World Series ends.

God, I hope so. The Yankees throwing huge contracts at aging players on the downslope of their careers is the only shot the other 29 clubs have at a reasonably level playing field.

I'll never forget what White Sox fans know as the "Rowand series." It was in NY, in 2005, and Aaron Rowand took away at least 9 extra base hits over three games, including three in one inning with El Duque on the mound. This was when the Yanks were still playing Bernie Williams in center, and none of the fans had seen defense like that for many a year.

The best part is that neither the announcers nor the Yankee players knew Rowand's name during or after the game, but they knew it from then on.

That was the series that really put Rowand on the map from a quasi fourth outfielder into a legitimate starter, at least in the minds of the NY media.

Go ahead, ask any White Sox fan, and they'll remember the Rowand series. Don't even mention when it was, or who it was against, or where it was played. They'll still remember it.

IMHO, 2005 kicked ***, for a number of reasons.

Also, here on the BBTF in the 2005 offseason some Yankee fan suggested that the Yanks acquire Rowand and Neal Cotts in exchange for Gary Sheffield, which I wrote off as too high a price to pay. Boy, those were the days. The days when Neal Cotts could actually pitch.

I remember watching most of that series. As a Yankee fan, my main take-away was that holy ####, Bernie Williams has turned into an awful center fielder, and we realllllly need to replace him. I wasn't that sold on Rowand, specifically...

The point still stands. But changing the subject works too I guess.

Let's keep on topic, "stupid things the Dodgers are likely to do with their youngsters".

Let's keep on topic, "stupid things the Dodgers are likely to do with their youngsters".

this is what I don't get. If the Dodgers handled their young players any other way, is there a guarantee that they would perform as well as they did? Did Billingsley's stint in the bullpen help him learn to attack hitters better? Did Loney's stint in AAA give him a little humility. Did having Ethier and Kemp in an outfield rotation slowly ease them into the majors and not overwhelm them with the responsibility of playing a full, grinding major league schedule right away?

I see all these comments about how the Dodgers do stupid things with their youth but I fail to see the correlation of those results when almost every single one of them has performed encouragingly ...maybe as a result of the Dodgers development way?

Loney and Kemp are both going to have full time jobs next year. Martin is still the leader behind the plate. Laroche, if healthy, will probably play the majority of the time at 3b. But because of his past back and shoulder problems, he is probably going to be rotated frequently with Nomar until he shows he has the health to handle playing every day.

Personally, the Dodgers' biggest problem is not how they handle their youth, its deciding what complimentary players to bring in to surround their youth. They have just been atrocious at that aspect of roster construction.

Until they adjust for context, the BBRef comps won't be worth much.

Well, it's not clear any system's comps are worth much but ...

the lack of context adjustment means that SOMETIMES b-r comps won't be worth much ... and sometimes they will.

Aaron Rowand has a career 106 OPS+. His comps average a 106; the retired ones are a 112. His raw rates are 286/343/462; his comps are 283/341/457 (all) and 282/344/458 (retired). ABs? 2664 vs 2709 (2669 for the retired). HR? 93 for Rowand; 92 for comps. Doubles? 166 to 155. Heck, steals? 54/19 vs. 54/30. Raw stats are incredibly close, contextual stats are very close.

I'm too lazy to make an EQA comparison, but I'm guessing you'd be hardpressed to find 10 better statistical comps for Rowand as a hitter.

Now whether statistically similar as a hitter through age X tells you anything about how well a player ages is an open question. But if you buy the premise, these are good comps for Rowand.