flags fly forever

Technically, only the ones on the Moon would fly forever. And even then, when the sun expands......

Halladay will be 33 next year, while Montero will be 20, so even if Halladay spends the next five years in pinstripes, Montero will still be in his prime for years after the Doc has checked out.

And Montero will only be one year away from signing with the Yankees as a free agent.

That first paragraph is written in the tone that Halladay has been traded to NY.

The "news" he's referring to is that the new Toronto GM supposedly would be willing to trade within the division.

Maybe you trade 20 years of Montero for two more World Series appearances with the present group.

20 years? Grow a pair. He'll be good for at least 35-40.

, only the ones on the Moon would fly forever. And even then, when the sun expands......

The one on the moon fell over when they took off.

It would be sad to see Phil Hughes ... blossom in a Blue Jays uniform.

Yes, but the Yankees would sign him as a free agent in a few years. No biggie.

The one on the moon fell over when they took off.

They then made sure that all the other flags were placed farther away. Those are still standing.

If the Yankees trade Hughes and Montero for Halladay, I won't root for them next year. I hate giving away homegrown players.

If the Yankees trade Hughes and Montero for Halladay, I won't root for them next year. I hate giving away homegrown players.

I think fans of every other team are vomiting right now.

I think fans of every other team are vomiting right now.

I'm inclined to agree with you.

If you want to get a star player who isn't homegrown, then you usually have to trade homegrown talent. That's what almost every other team does.

The Yankees can get lots of stars by signing them as free agents. Most other teams can't do that (more than once or twice), particularly when the Yankees covet that star player.

To declare that you'll stop rooting for the Yankees because they do something the way other teams have to, but not to stop rooting for them because they exploit an advantage they have over every other team... that's got to infuriate most non-Yankees fans.

I'm not saying you should want them to trade those guys. I don't want them to, although I would love for the Yankees to have Halladay. You can even be upset if they do trade those guys. But giving up on the team because they traded two unproven players is kind of silly.

That was a really odd article.

I think fans of every other team are vomiting right now.

Fine. I've suspended my Yankee fandom twice before. In 1997 when they let Wetteland and Key go, and in 2004 when they let Pettitte, and Wells go and traded Nick Johnson for Vasquez. The second time I didn't come back until 2007, after Brown, Sheffield and Randy johnson were gone.

I have my limits in rooting for the mercenary All-Star team. They're pushing it now. I have to feel somewhat good about who I'm rooting for, and homegrown guys help a lot.

Fine. I've suspended my Yankee fandom twice before. In 1997 when they let Wetteland and Key go

Well, I bet you feel kind of silly about that in hindsight, huh?

To declare that you'll stop rooting for the Yankees because they do something the way other teams have to, but not to stop rooting for them because they exploit an advantage they have over every other team... that's got to infuriate most non-Yankees fans.

I'm not saying you should want them to trade those guys. I don't want them to, although I would love for the Yankees to have Halladay. You can even be upset if they do trade those guys. But giving up on the team because they traded two unproven players is kind of silly.

You've got me wrong. I don't want Hallady period. I don't want Mauer. I don't want Felix Hernandez. I want these guys to stay with their teams.

Don't kid yourself that trading for Halladay, and extending him is any less a use of money than signing him. It just also happens to be a bad baseball decision, IMHO.

Wait - you have your limits in rooting for the mercenary All-Star team AND you suspended your fanhood when they let Wetteland and Key go? That strikes me as somewhat contradictory.

Well, I bet you feel kind of silly about that in hindsight, huh?

Nope. Wetteland had two more excellent years and one good years left in him (ERA+ 248,236,139) and was signed to a three year deal with Texas.

There was absolutely no reason to break up the Rivera/Wetteland combo. Rivera would have been more valuable throwing multi-inning setup stints.

Despite Boras' ######## on his behalf, Rivera had zero leverage to "demand" to be closer. That pissed me off too.

Key was also very good in 1997. Both decsisions were wrong.

And, I'll admit I enjoyed Rivera giving up the home run to Sandy Alomar in the playoffs. Just like the 2004 collapse to Boston didn't bother me and still doesn't bother me.

You've got me wrong. I don't want Hallady period. I don't want Mauer. I don't want Felix Hernandez. I want these guys to stay with their teams.

That's awesome, but the Yankees don't really have control over that. If they're staying with their current teams, then they're staying almost no matter what the Yankees do. If not, then they're signing with the Red Sox, or the Mets, or some other big market team.

I want the Yankees to win, and that means not conceding free agents to rivals to satisfy people who are going to hate the Yankees no matter what, and resent them even if they won with a 100% homegrown team with a $60 million payroll.

I'd like them to fix the system, but as long as the Yankees have the edge, I want them to exploit it.

A Yankee fan being against grabbing large amounts "mercenary" talent is like a Fish campaigning against Water.

Wait - you have your limits in rooting for the mercenary All-Star team AND you suspended your fanhood when they let Wetteland and Key go? That strikes me as somewhat contradictory.

Well, I had come to like Wetteland and Key a lot by that point, and they both played a huge role in delivering the 1996 Championship.

Add in Boras ######## on Rivera's behalf, and David Wells (not the most liekable fellow) replacing Key, and it was a case of less likeable mercenaries replacing the mercenaries I had come to like.

I'm pretty flaky on this stuff. I never could like or root for Tino Martinez b/c he replaced Mattingly. I actually enjoyed his post-season struggles. Likewise, I could never root for Reggie Jackson after he dissed Munson.

My fandom is fickle. Hey, we're called fanatics for a reason.

There was absolutely no reason to break up the Rivera/Wetteland combo. Rivera would have been more valuable throwing multi-inning setup stints.

Despite Boras' ######## on his behalf, Rivera had zero leverage to "demand" to be closer. That pissed me off too.

Uh, what? Scott Boras isn't Mariano Rivera's agent. Mariano Rivera did not demand to be the closer. What are you talking about?

They let Wetteland walk because he was a free agent and they felt that Rivera could close for a lot less money.

I'd like them to fix the system, but as long as the Yankees have the edge, I want them to exploit it.

I'd like them to fix the system too, and I hate how the Yankees exploit it (Who was the last notable free agent they pursued that they didn't get?). I do admit, however, that if I were a Yankee fan, I'd almost certainly want them to do whatever they needed to do to win.

Who was the last notable free agent they pursued that they didn't get?

Andy Pettitte.

That's awesome, but the Yankees don't really have control over that. If they're staying with their current teams, then they're staying almost no matter what the Yankees do. If not, then they're signing with the Red Sox, or the Mets, or some other big market team.

Fine. Then let them reach free agency, and go for them.

A Yankee fan being against grabbing large amounts "mercenary" talent is like a Fish campaigning against Water.

I freely admit it is not an internally consistent world view.

I like to win, but I hate the "buying" of Championships. So, there is a tipping point based on the FA/home grown balance, which also includes the likeability of the players.

When the team goes too mercenary (the Sheffield/Brown/Randy Johnson teams are a prime example) I just can't root/care anymore. It's odd, but it is what it is.

I got as much joy from seeing Kevin Brown and Javier Vasquez implode against Boston in 2004 as I did pain from seeing Boston finally win.

At the end of the day, I'd rather like the team than be Champions. I'd rather them go out next year and finish 2nd with Joba and Hughes in the rotation, than trade for Halladay and win the WS.

This year's edition won me over by being a really fun team with likeable players. If they had signed Manny Ramirez and Pedro martinez (assume for a minute he was still Pedro!), I wouldn't have rooted for them.

Uh, what? Scott Boras isn't Mariano Rivera's agent. Mariano Rivera did not demand to be the closer. What are you talking about?


Who was Rivera's agent at the time? There was definitely noise that Rivera would be unhappy as the set up man, which played a role in Wetteland's departure. The team also didn't like his politics and overt religiousity.

I like to win, but I hate the "buying" of Championships.

Not to be a dick, but you can afford to take that view since your team actually wins championships. If you were stuck rooting for a lot of other teams, you'd probably be pretty happy if your team found a way to "buy" a championship or two.

Ask Pirates fans, or KC fans, or any franchise that hasn't won a championship in more than a decade if they'd be bothered by their team buying a WS, and I'm pretty sure they'd be fine with it.

I do admit, however, that if I were a Yankee fan, I'd almost certainly want them to do whatever they needed to do to win.

I'd prefer they voluntarily constrain their spending.

I'd prefer they voluntarily constrain their spending.

Watch a loser for 15 years or so, and see if you still feel the same way.

In 1997 when they let Wetteland and Key go

Why those guys? Key was a Toronto Blue Jay who signed as a Free Agent with the Yankees, and then was signed by Baltimore when his contract expired; Wetteland came over in trade, spent all of 2 years in pinstripes, and was let go because they had this Rivera in the pen who seemed to be a passable reliever.

There was definitely noise that Rivera would be unhappy as the set up man, which played a role in Wetteland's departure.

Given everything we have seen from Mariano in the last decade plus, does this sound even a LITTLE like him? I think you're must making stuff up at this point, just to be contrary.

Watch a loser for 15 years or so, and see if you still feel the same way.

Look, I fully admit that my view is conditioned by the fact that they can still win championships while limiting payroll. I've been a fan a long time. I went through the 1979-1995 WS drought.

But it's not a strange world view to me. Just like I think CEOs are scumbags for extracting huge pay from corporations. They should voluntarily limit themselves to reasonable compensation.

To me the Yankees, and other big market teams, voluntarily showing spending restraint is a much better solution than ending up with some screwed up cap system like the NFL or NBA.

Why those guys? Key was a Toronto Blue Jay who signed as a Free Agent with the Yankees, and then was signed by Baltimore when his contract expired; Wetteland came over in trade, spent all of 2 years in pinstripes, and was let go because they had this Rivera in the pen who seemed to be a passable reliever.

Mostly b/c they both just played a huge role in winning the first WS championship in 18 years. But I freely admit fandom is not rational. I also like Key's "crafty lefty", getting outs with smoke and mirrors approach, and Wetteland's dirty hat. They were just fun players to me.

Someone like a Clemens or a Rivera was never a fun guy for me to root for. Don't know why. Possibly b/c they were too good. I've never gravitated towrards the real super-stars.

Ask Pirates fans, or KC fans, or any franchise that hasn't won a championship in more than a decade...

I hate to be a nitpicker, but if rooting for a team that hasnt won a championship in 10 years is agony, there are always going to be fans of at least 20 teams suffering.

Given everything we have seen from Mariano in the last decade plus, does this sound even a LITTLE like him? I think you're must making stuff up at this point, just to be contrary.

I remember it quite clearly. He very well may have been young and operating under the bad advice of his agent. I seem to recall he later changed agents.

I'm definitely not making it up. I'm a huge Yankee fan since like 1974; for me to sit out a season for the first time was a huge deal. I'll ask my father if he remembers the details. I certainly remember my father being really pissed when I gloated over Rivera giving up the Alomar HR.

I'd rather them go out next year and finish 2nd with Joba and Hughes in the rotation, than trade for Halladay and win the WS.

I agree. I know the saying is that fans root for laundry, but that isn't entirely the case with me. I never liked Sax, Boggs, Clemens, Brown, Johnson, and a host of others. Trading Nick Johnson nearly killed me.

EDIT: And Tony Womack. Oh my god, I hated Tony Womack. Cano will always have a place on the team, just for ending that gofwful time.

I remember it quite clearly.

Memory is a tricky thing, and what you remember may be from a column of baseless speculation from some MSM media hack. Mariano has a long track record of word and deeds. I trust that more than some recollection of some gossip column BS from the Daily News Sports Toilet or wherever.

Rivera was never a fun guy for me to root for

Anyone who is not a fan of Mariano Rivera is neither a true Yankee fan or a true baseball fan. Hell, even Yankee haters give him a pass.

You've passed beyond "not rational." Start taking your meds again, please.

Watch a loser for 15 years or so, and see if you still feel the same way.

I'm with snapper, but at the same time, if the Indians or Cubs or Giants want to go out and buy themselves a championship, I wouldn't think their fans should feel the same way.

As a Red Sox fan, I've been spoiled by the last six years. I know that. And as a result of the spoils of those years, I too would rather see them pursue future championships through the use of homegrown guys, rather than just using their sizable revenue advantage to pummel the opposition. The more it feels like the team is competing on a levelish playing field, the more gratifying the title would be to me. But for fans of teams that haven't won titles in a while, then sure, I don't begrudge them taking 'em any way they can get 'em.

Anyone who is not a fan of Mariano Rivera is neither a true Yankee fan or a true baseball fan. Hell, even Yankee haters give him a pass.

You've passed beyond "not rational." Start taking your meds again, please.

he freely admits his fandom doesnt make sense, why is everyone arguing against him?

but you are right that the Rivera thing is the oddest of all, especially because he is 'homegrown.' I'm a Red Sox fan, and a big part of me cant help but wanting that unfathomable postseason ERA of his to keep shrinking.

I hate to be a nitpicker, but if rooting for a team that hasnt won a championship in 10 years is agony, there are always going to be fans of at least 20 teams suffering.

If you would prefer, you could replace "won a Championship" with "appeared in the Playoffs" or "at least contended for a playoff spot."

but you are right that the Rivera thing is the oddest of all, especially because he is 'homegrown.' I'm a Red Sox fan, and a big part of me cant help but wanting that unfathomable postseason ERA of his to keep shrinking.

I know it's odd. I think it's b/c he's been too perfect. I've never liked rooting for the big stars that can do no wrong.

I guess the flawed hero is more compelling to me. It's like Jeter vs. ARod. I should love Jeter right? Homegrown, does everything right. But, I just feel no warmth towards him. He's too perfect, gets too much adulation. On the other han, I think ARod is a complete nut job. I'd probably hate him if I met him in person, shallow, self-absorbed etc. Yet strangely, I find myself getting a lot of joy out of him proving the naysayers wrong.

Ask Pirates fans, or KC fans, or any franchise that hasn't won a championship in more than a decade if they'd be bothered by their team buying a WS, and I'm pretty sure they'd be fine with it.

If you can find any, you should ask them how they feel about their poormouth owners pocketing $100 million+ in "revenue sharing" welfare. Oh, they aren't using that money to "buy" a World Series, but they're using it to buy something. Of course, you don't get to be a fabulously wealthy plutocrat like these folks by turning down millions in free money every year.

If you can find any, you should ask them how they feel about their poormouth owners pocketing $100 million+ in "revenue sharing" welfare.

Do you honestly think that KC or Pittsburgh fans like their owners? Do you also believe that these fans wouldn't be a lot happier if their owners put that money into the franchise, rather than into well paid "positions" for family members.

Do you honestly think that KC or Pittsburgh fans like their owners? Do you also believe that these fans wouldn't be a lot happier if their owners put that money into the franchise, rather than into well paid "positions" for family members.

Perhaps their cries against the ownership of the welfare teams have been drowned out by the pitchfork-carrying mobs that have been demanding further sacking of the Yankee coffers since 1998. The real problem, you see, is Mr. Steinbrenner's money and his insistence on using it to better his ballclub. Why can't David Glass have some for his Royals - he's earned it by virtue of being rich enough to own a ballclub!

As to the "well paid "positions" for family members", if only a fraction of the ire directed at the profitability of Mr. Steinbrenner & Family were transferred to Bud Selig's shameless enrichment of his own daughter, we'd have had a new commissioner several years ago.

Anyone who is not a fan of Mariano Rivera is neither a true Yankee fan or a true baseball fan. Hell, even Yankee haters give him a pass.

Huh. I respect him — of course — and even fear him a little. But a fan of? Never.

I guess the flawed hero is more compelling to me.

I think it's that way for most people. People have an affection for underdog-makes-good stories in a way that they'll never have for U.S. Steel (or random big monopolistic entity). That's why you see so many Yankee fans constantly play down the advantage the Yankees have in terms of spending — it's no fun being Clubber Lang all the time. Hell, if it weren't for that impulse, Yankee Redneck wouldn't have anything to write about.

Perhaps their cries against the ownership of the welfare teams have been drowned out by the pitchfork-carrying mobs that have been demanding further sacking of the Yankee coffers since 1998.

Or perhaps you only pay attention to the peasants when they deign to attack the Yankees?

I hated Clemens and Johnson, those #############, and their involvement did significantly taint Yankee achievements for me (perversely, I also hated them, of course, because I thought both underachieved in pinstripes: where was the Dominant Starter™ I had been expecting since the young Ron Guidry??) So I totally get snapper's position, while not agreeing with him on some details......

One of the problems with the wonderfully enlightened world of 21st century baseball fandom is how all the available information turns fans into GMs--everything we know encourages us to be as ruthless about players as management is; but, emotionally, that's tough. In a weird way, I would respect myself more if I was a fan of players, rather than a fan of a particular team [the Yankees]. What the kids at FreeDarko call "enlightened fanhood."

Hell, if it weren't for that impulse, Yankee Redneck wouldn't have anything to write about.

There's always boxing and MMA!

Or perhaps you only pay attention to the peasants when they deign to attack the Yankees?

Their massive PR advantage makes them hard to ignore. That doesn't mean I have to take the image of Carl Pohlad in hobo garb seriously.

I know it's odd. I think it's b/c he's been too perfect.

He hasn't been though. He's been just vulnerable enough to show why baseball's great, because no one can be perfect.

Just looking at postseason blown saves for example:

1997 vs. Cleveland
2001 vs. Arizona
2004 vs. Minnesota
2004 vs. Boston
2004 vs. Boston

I guess you can't control your emotional reaction to a player, but until this thread I've NEVER heard or read of a SINGLE Yankee fan who didn't think Mo was awesome.

Just looking at postseason blown saves for example:

1997 vs. Cleveland
2001 vs. Arizona
2004 vs. Minnesota
2004 vs. Boston
2004 vs. Boston

I guess you can't control your emotional reaction to a player, but until this thread I've NEVER heard or read of a SINGLE Yankee fan who didn't think Mo was awesome.

Well why couldn't he have blown some while we we were sweeping some teams? Even more reason to hate him!

;-)

I guess you can't control your emotional reaction to a player, but until this thread I've NEVER heard or read of a SINGLE Yankee fan who didn't think Mo was awesome.

Objectively he's awesome. I just don't like him.

the Yankees’ position players are rapidly aging

He must be looking at different players than I am.

Well why couldn't he have blown some while we we were sweeping some teams? Even more reason to hate him!

2004 vs. Minnesota

I remember it quite clearly. He very well may have been young and operating under the bad advice of his agent. I seem to recall he later changed agents.

I remember this too. I think that in 1995, Rivera said that he was a starter, and didn't want to be a reliever at all. Then he amended it to "but I'll be a closer if I can't be a starter". I remember thinking at the time that if the Yankees persisted in his "terminator" usage, they'd lose his services.

One guy who I work with is quite the dyed-in-the-wool liberal. He's a Brewers fan, and he sniffingly told me that he enjoys seeing the Brewers do more with less, even if it doesn't win them a championship. I asked him why he's rooting for the team ownership to get richer, at the expense of the hard-working players. Stopped him in his tracks. I love reframing an argument when it works like that.

Do you honestly think that KC or Pittsburgh fans like their owners?

I don't know of too many fans who like Bob Nutting.

-- MWE

snapper, you're the sort of Primate who makes this site interesting. And even though I don't agree with all your quirks, I share your overall sentiment. I don't want to see the Yanks trade their young talent for pitchers in their 30's, and I'd much prefer that Halladay remains with the Blue Jays, but once he's a free agent it's different.

But what I'd really like for the Yankees to do with all that surplus cash is to go after the Latin and Caribbean market by hiring more scouts and cultivating relationships with as many inside contacts as possible. Get em while they're young and get around the U.S. draft. And then slowly twist that knife.