Well, he got you a column out of this, Anne Merkel.

but there is a certain sadness that Jeter, one of the most-celebrated players of his day, will never get an MVP award despite playing excellently on five World Series winners.

Jeter will have to find comfort in the arms of Miss Venezuela.

As I said, Mauer deserved the award, but there is a certain sadness that Jeter, one of the most-celebrated players of his day, will never get an MVP award despite playing excellently on five World Series winners.

Well, there are lots of players who were almost among the best in the league, but never actually the best. The two other times Jeter's come close, he's been better than the actual MVP winner, but not the actual most valuable player. I.e. he was better than Morneau but not as good as Mauer in 2006, and better than Juan Gonzalez, but not as good as Nomar in 1998.

but there is a certain sadness that Jeter

No there isn't. That's like feeling sad for Harvard that they lost 1/3 of their multi-billion dollar endowment.

Part of the problem when you play on a team of all-stars for your whole career is that it's unlikely that you'll even be the best player on your team. Go to Kansas City, take them the playoffs just once in the last 14 years and you've got your MVP.

Part of the problem when you play on a team of all-stars for your whole career is that it's unlikely that you'll even be the best player on your team. Go to Kansas City, take them the playoffs just once in the last 14 years and you've got your MVP.

He wants to be the MVP, not Moses.

"The Searchers" is overrated.

t’s just that the hitting standards at first base are so ridiculously high that to call Teixeira’s season great would be ludicrous given the existence of Albert Pujols.

No. It would be ludicrous given the existence of four or five Albert Pujols clones. It's fine to call Teixeira's season (or Miguel Cabrera's for that matter) great, as long as you save a more impressive sounding superlative for Pujols.

never actually the best

Wasn't Jeter pretty close in 1999, his best year? It's a tough call.

Wasn't Jeter pretty close in 1999, his best year? It's a tough call.

In '99 it was either Jeter or Pedro and in '06 it was one of Jeter, Mauer, or Santana. As opposed to what #3 said, Mauer was not clearly better than Jeter in '06.

"The Searchers" is overrated

Only if you claim it's the greatest American movie ever. It's got a flaw or two (Jeffrey Hunter, some strained comic relief), but what film doesn't? It's still inner-circle :)

Wasn't Jeter pretty close in 1999, his best year? It's a tough call.

Pedro Martinez was better. It's close between Manny Ramirez and Jeter for the best position player that year, though.

All this talk about The Searchers being overrated has made it underrated.

Only if you claim it's the greatest American movie ever. It's got a flaw or two (Jeffrey Hunter, some strained comic relief), but what film doesn't? It's still inner-circle :)

I just don't get the love for the movie. To me it's an ok western, nothing more. (I realize that I'm outing myself as a commie or something, but so be it.)

Jeter can feel good about Bill James calling him the real MVP in 1999.

Wasn't Jeter pretty close in 1999, his best year? It's a tough call.

I think Bernie's gold glove puts him over the top, but the voters sure didn't think so. He came in 11th to Jeter's 6th.

I also think The Searchers is overrated.

I like it. It's a very good movie. Seen it a number of times. Am even an avowed John Ford lover. But all of the Best Western Ever hype is just too much and bound to disappoint new viewers. (I will also point outthat msot of the admiration for the movie has a sort of academic slant - I don't know anyone who watched it and just said, \"####, that was an awesome movie!")

Hard to feel sad about Jeter not winning an MVP award. He will never be a serious candidate for "most underrated MLB player."

(I will also point outthat msot of the admiration for the movie has a sort of academic slant - I don't know anyone who watched it and just said, "####, that was an awesome movie!")

I've had a hard time putting my finger on exactly what I found frustrating about the movie, but I think you've hit the nail on the head. I've read analyses praising the acting, story, cinematography, etc., but it just wasn't a great movie experience for me. It didn't reach me on a gut level.

Quick ... who are the top 10 position players all-time (for career value) who have never won an MVP?

Honus Wagner!

Eddie Murray

but there is a certain sadness that Jeter, one of the most-celebrated players of his day, will never get an MVP award despite playing excellently on five World Series winners.

Not as great as the sadness that Jeter, despite being a poor fielder, has won 4 gold gloves. Who among other 4+ gold gloves winners was ANYWHERE REMOTELY CLOSE to being a below-avg defender? I'd gladly give him the MVP he plausibly deserved in 1999 if we took away the silly hardware he's won.

Quick ... who are the top 10 position players all-time (for career value) who have never won an MVP?

C Fisk
1b McGwire
2b Grich
3b Matthews? Boggs? (did he ever win an MVP?)
SS Ozzie Smith
LF Drawing a blank.
CF Jim Edmonds?
RF Dwight Evans? Tony Gwynn?

Just pulling names out of my arse.

Re "The Searchers," I agree that the picture as a WHOLE is overrated, esp. the forced comic relief (I thought Hunter was okay) and I never quite buy Wayne's 180 on Natalie Wood at the end, but my point was that Wayne was excellent IN it. I would imagine there have been many Best Actor winners who were great in otherwise flawed pictures.

And I meant to mention "Mr. Roberts" for Henry Fonda.

C Fisk
1b McGwire
2b Grich
3b Matthews? Boggs? (did he ever win an MVP?)
SS Ozzie Smith
LF Drawing a blank.
CF Jim Edmonds?
RF Dwight Evans? Tony Gwynn?

I'd go with Alomar at 2B, but Grich is also a good candidate. In CF, I'd say Duke Snider.

John Wayne didn't go to his left either.

Wayne, had he been nominated for the '57 awards, would have been up against Marlon Brando, Charles Laughton, Anthony Quinn, and Alec Guiness (the winner for Bridge Over the River Kwai). That makes Jeter's 1999 a very appropriate comparison, because although he was a very plausible winner, he was going up against some real superstars in Ivan Rodriguez, Pedro, Alomar, Manny, Nomar ...

LF Drawing a blank

Maybe Manny Ramirez, though he was playing RF in 1999 when he had perhaps his best case, too. Tim Raines, Billy Williams.

C Fisk

Or Piazza.

John Wayne was a fag.

Mel Ott in right. The modern MVP doesn't technically cover his entire career, but it's close.

Paul Newman also would have been an appropriate example for that list, yes?

And Al Pacino. ("Scent of a Woman"? Are you kidding me?)

And from the director category, Martin Scorsese (Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, The Last Temptation of Christ, Goodfellas, The Aviator, etc., no; The Departed, yes??).

Still, ask Peter O'Toole (Lawrence of Arabia, Becket, The Lion in Winter, The Stunt Man, My Favorite Year, etc.) if a late-career, make-up Oscar is better than none at all.

Several of the Best Supporting Actor Oscars have pretty much been career awards: Alan Arkin, George Clooney, Morgan Freeman, James Coburn, Michael Caine (at least his first one), Jack Palance, Don Ameche – for performances that ranged from amusing to forgettable, I would say, but it was a way of honoring the person rather than the specific work.

Happens much less often with actresses, because the cruel fact of Hollywood remains that actresses are unlikely to get any good roles past the age of 40. They don't stay stars long enough to collect "career" awards.

Henry Fonda getting a deathbed for "On Golden Pond" doesn't forgive the lack of notice for "Young Mr. Lincoln," "The Grapes of Wrath" (nominated but lost to Jimmy Stewart for "The Philadelphia Story"), or "Fort Apache," among others.

It's a good story, but Jimmy Stewart was a better actor (in Philadelphia Story and elsewhere) than Henry Fonda (in Grapes of Wrath and elsewhere). That's not a knock on Henry Fonda, it's a recognition that Jimmy Stewart was a helluva good actor. Grapes of Wrath is a terrific movie, but it's terrific because of the way it's shot, because of Jane Darwell (always terrific in movies) and some of the other character actors' acting, not because of Henry Fonda (who's perfectly fine but not terrific).

The Searchers takes on racism in the Old West which gets film buffs/historians/etc excited. That and how it was shot.

It's also with an unlikeable John Wayne which ran against his typical role. Cripes, he coveted his brother's wife. Yowsers.

The Oscar to that Italian goofball who climbed across the seats for "Life is Beautiful" still puzzles me. As does Rex for "My Fair Lady" given the competition.

"The Searchers" is the only movie I can think of that 1) I watched solely due to the hype, and 2) Wildly surpassed my expectations.

Oh, and not that anyone is still talking about this, but Arky Vaughan at short.

Jimmy Stewart was a better actor (in Philadelphia Story and elsewhere) than Henry Fonda (in Grapes of Wrath and elsewhere). That's not a knock on Henry Fonda, it's a recognition that Jimmy Stewart was a helluva good actor

Agh, they were both iconic and had amazingly parallel careers. Where they diverged a bit was that Fonda used his Hollywood fame to go back to stage acting for a stretch after WW2, while Stewart was one of the busier stars in Hollywood for a long while. That stage experience made Fonda slightly more respected as an actor's actor, I think, while they were both alive. Stewart, by way of compensation, became the archetypal Hitchcock leading man, which has won him more posthumous respect because those films have become greater classics than Fonda's. (Fonda worked just once with Hitchcock, IIRC, in an interesting but somewhat overdrawn movie called The Wrong Man.)

Fonda at his best (My Darling Clementine, 12 Angry Men) and Stewart at his best (The Naked Spur, Rear Window) were both extraordinarily good actors; there is almost nothing to choose between them on peak value. Stewart is ahead on career value, and on "playing time" on screen, I'll grant that.

Oh, and not that anyone is still talking about this, but Arky Vaughan at short.

Concur. And Jeter himself is better than Ozzie Smith.

Unless you count Days of Heaven as a Western, The Searchers is the most beautifully photographed Western I've seen. The comic relief is badly dated, and I don't buy Ethan's heel face turn either. But it has brilliant direction, a compelling main character, a good story, and two great action scenes. That redeems its flaws for me.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: The Academy Awards are not about rewarding deserving performances. That has never been the point. They're about having a big gala event, creating good press for the nominees, and rewarding people the Academy likes or wants to do a favor for. That's not necessarily a bad thing; a party is still a party. But before pointing out the many, many questionable winners, remember that deserve's got nothing to do with it.

Also, Al Kaline in right.

That John Wayne got an award for “True Grit” doesn’t change the fact that he didn’t even get nominated for “The Searchers”

Put me in the "The Searchers" is overrated camp. A very good movie but it never quite grabbed me on a gut level.

I don't know if it's his best acting or not, but my favorite John Wayne role is J. B. Books in "The Shootist". The dying Wayne plays a dying gunman whom nobody wants around, stuggling with a world that has changed beyond anything that he could have imagined.
A very autobiographical role if there was one.

"John Bernard Books is a-moldin' in his grave,
John Bernard Books is a-moldin' in his grave,
John Bernard Books is a-moldin' in his grave,
But his horse goes marching on"

Wayne SHOULD have been nominated for RED RIVER, it is his greatest performance ever, IMO. Monty Clift wasn't shabby in that, either. Paul Newman should have won for THE VERDICT, but he had the misfortune, as Dustin Hoffman (TOOTSIE) had, being up against Ben Kingsley for GANDHI.

People have mentioned not being "grabbed" by The Searchers, but oddly enough I do find it emotionally very affecting – so my love for it is not just reverence for a grand film experience. (For me, that would be more like Godfather 2: I can see why people admire it, but it leaves me cold.)

In The Searchers, I love the initial domestic scene, especially the parting shot where Ethan is looking at his sister-in-law, and Ward Bond's character takes it in – all silently, but it's devastating. And later, the shooting-out of the eyes, which is extremely edgy and disturbing even after a half-century of grisly movie violence. And unlike several posters, I think the ending is very convincing, and makes perfect sense. Evidently, they'd written a line for Wayne to the effect that Natalie Wood's character looks like her mother, which is the trigger for him to spare her. But when it came time to shoot the scene, John Ford thought the line was superfluous, so they tried it without it, and they were right. It's wonderful because it's unexplained.

And then the final shot is a killer. As I said upthread, it's flawed, but it's heartbreaking.

there is a certain sadness that Jeter, one of the most-celebrated players of his day, will never get an MVP award despite playing excellently on five World Series winners.

Jeter may not be done with MVP-caliber seasons or collecting WS rings. He could slip a tad below his 2009 numbers (132 OPS+) and still win the MVP in the right year (e.g. 2008).

Paul Newman should have won for THE VERDICT, but he had the misfortune, as Dustin Hoffman (TOOTSIE) had, being up against Ben Kingsley for GANDHI.

1968 and "Cool Hand Luke" should have been Newman's year for Best Actor. Steiger got it for "In The Heat of the Night" when the nomination for that movie was stolen from Poitier. Honestly, how did Sir Sidney NOT get a nom over Rex Harrison for "Doctor Freaking Doolittle"?

Henry Fonda and the question of the greatest Western ever have both emerged in this thread, and somehow nobody's mentioned Once Upon a Time in the West

Wayne, had he been nominated for the '57 awards, would have been up against Marlon Brando, Charles Laughton, Anthony Quinn, and Alec Guiness (the winner for Bridge Over the River Kwai).

Now you want to talk over-rated, go with Brando (and Quinn too). Guiness and Laughton were fantastic actors.

But Marlon Brandon is almost unwatchable for me (except for The Godfather, and The Freshman, where he plays the Godfather again).

Talk about scenery chewing, over acting, emotive BS.

I'll take the Duke over Brando every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

And then the final shot is a killer.

That final shot is a grabber, to that I will wholeheartedly agree. My issue (I think) is that I can not connect with Ethan's character -- I don't understand him. Now I have never seen it on the big screen, which I need to do if I ever get the chance.
I see your connection with GF2 -- Michael Corleone is not someone to relate to in the same way. That character leaves me cold. DeNiro as Vito, on the other hand, he was eminently "relatable", I want that character to succeed.

And later, the shooting-out of the eyes, which is extremely edgy and disturbing even after a half-century of grisly movie violence.

Danny Rose: [asks about her ex-husband] What'd you do, you divorced him, or got a separation, or what?
Tina Vitale: Nah, some guy shot him in the eyes.
Danny Rose: Really? He's blind?
Tina Vitale: Dead.
Danny Rose: Dead. Of course, 'cause the bullets go right through.

But Marlon Brandon is almost unwatchable for me (except for The Godfather, and The Freshman, where he plays the Godfather again).

Talk about scenery chewing, over acting, emotive BS.

And I'll bet you've never even seen "The Missouri Breaks".

Steiger got it for "In The Heat of the Night" when the nomination for that movie was stolen from Poitier

Which in turn (the Steiger win, not the Poitier snub) was payback for Steiger being robbed when Lee Marvin won for Cat Ballou over Steiger for The Pawnbroker. Steiger told the story of sitting in the Academy Awards audience, speech written, ready to bounce up out of his seat, and hearing Lee Marvin announced. He said he was sure it was an error and they would correct it immediately.

"The Searchers" is overrated.

Everything to do with John Wayne is overrated. He was the worst.

Pedro Martinez was better. It's close between Manny Ramirez and Jeter for the best position player that year, though.

Well you can't vote pitchers for the MVP... unless they play for a team in your city apparently.

And I'll bet you've never even seen "The Missouri Breaks".

No, just the normal stuff. Streetcar, On the Waterfront, Wild Ones, etc.

All I kept thinking in the Wild Ones was that in any real rural western town, the town folks would haved pulled their rifles and shotguns out of their trucks, and from behind their store counters and slaughtered those clowns like turkeys at Thanksgiving. Anyone ever heard of the Northfield raid? And those were real hardcase criminals.

OK - I'll bite on the thread hijack...

Didn't like the Searchers at all.

I would agree that "The Shootist" was Wayne's best performance and I would argue that "The Good, Bad, and the Ugly", is the best Western (if you don't count "Seven Samurai" as a Western...)

If I had to pick a favorite Fonda performance - it would be "Once upon a time in the West" - you just get the feeling that this the *real* Fonda...

If I had to pick a favorite Fonda performance - it would be "Once upon a time in the West" - you just get the feeling that this the *real* Fonda...

Once Upon a Time in the West is the best Western, period. And Silverado is criminally underrated. CRIMINALLY!

Two things I love about "The Searchers":

1. The coin flipping.
2. "Looks like you two will have a lot to talk about."


My favorite Western (at least going by most-watched) is probably "Little Big Man."
Richard Mulligan's portrayal of Custer is brilliant.

EDIT: clarified ambiguity.

I have always thought that a lot of Wayne's early westerns were very good and almost all of his later ones are not. The Three Godfathers, Stagecoach, the Angel and the Badman, Red River are all very top notch. The Searchers seems to me to have a lot of great scenes but not a great movie. I agree that Silverado is a great movie but Once Upon a Time in the West bores me to tears.

"Shane"

Jack Palance as the best hired gun possible.

G-R-E-A-T movie

I don't know much about Wayne but I think his performance in In Harm's Way should be mentioned.

But Marlon Brandon is almost unwatchable for me (except for The Godfather, and The Freshman, where he plays the Godfather again).

Talk about scenery chewing, over acting, emotive BS.

I find this to be a really amusing characterization of Brando's acting style.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating: The Academy Awards are not about rewarding deserving performances. That has never been the point. They're about having a big gala event, creating good press for the nominees, and rewarding people the Academy likes or wants to do a favor for.

Certainly this is true to some extent but I think in general the Oscars are by far the most respectable of the major American arts award shows, the one in which actual merit is most important, and the one that the winners and losers care most about. I can't really be cynical about them.

I also liked the Duke in the cavalry trilogy, particularly She Wore A Yellow Ribbon, even if it seems a little overdone. It's some of his (and Ford's) best work, IMO.

I also liked the Duke in the cavalry trilogy, particularly She Wore A Yellow Ribbon, even if it seems a little overdone. It's some of his (and Ford's) best work, IMO.

I think these are very good also and great cinematography as well. One that I never really liked was High Noon. I understand and appreciate the symbolism, it just never really grabbed me. I think a true reaction would be as noted above where the three would have come into town to face a heavily armed crowd. I think Howard Hawks hated it so much that he made Rio Bravo with John Wayne in response. If no one supports the sheriff so what he still does his job without whining and begging for help.

High Noon

Another fine western

Shane absolutely delighted me. I rented it assuming that it would feel silly or dated, but it was just awesome.

Never seen The Searchers. Once Upon a Time in the West and The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly are my two favorite westerns.

Certainly this is true to some extent but I think in general the Oscars are by far the most respectable of the major American arts award shows, the one in which actual merit is most important, and the one that the winners and losers care most about. I can't really be cynical about them."

"'Course I'm respectable. I'm old. Politicians, ugly buildings, and whores all get respectable if they last long enough."

I'm probably coming across more antagonistic towards the Oscars than I actually am. It's a huge event, and people love it. I can't get too upset about something that kindles so many passionate discussions about movies.

Once Upon a Time in the West is the best Western, period."

This is crazy talk. Once Upon a Time in the West might be Leone's 3rd best Western.

I'm not a big Western fan myself, but my favorites in the genre are The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, The Searchers, Stagecoach, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, Shane, The Proposition (an Aussie Western!), Unforgiven, and The Claim. Now that I think about it, that's a pretty long list for someone who says he doesn't like Westerns.

Deadwood has ruined me for wessterns.

I'm probably coming across more antagonistic towards the Oscars than I actually am. It's a huge event, and people love it. I can't get too upset about something that kindles so many passionate discussions about movies.

Agreed. It used to bother me when the Best Picture winner (for example) was very obviously not the best picture to come out during that year -- not even the best picture in English, with name actors, which made money (sort of the practical criteria). Now Oscar Night is just an excuse to hang out with friends and eat and drink, and that's great. I still don't see how anyone who actually likes movies, and sees a lot of them, could take the awards themselves seriously, but at least they bug me a lot less.

I'm probably coming across more antagonistic towards the Oscars than I actually am. It's a huge event, and people love it. I can't get too upset about something that kindles so many passionate discussions about movies.

Grammys: A horror story. Does the band that just performed still always win the following award?
Emmys: not sure, I've never watched
Tonys: apparently all awards are fixed to promote traveling productions
Golden Globes: come on. Amusing how nervous winners get when they almost forget to thank the Hollywood Foreign Press Assoc. Wouldn't want to be blackballed for next year!
Other: who gives a ####

In my business (restaurants) there are a variety of such awards, the most famous of which is the James Beard reception. A former boss of mine was nominated for one, pending a membership fee of thousands of dollars.

The Oscars is really the cream of the crop here.

I also liked the Duke in the cavalry trilogy, particularly She Wore A Yellow Ribbon, even if it seems a little overdone. It's some of his (and Ford's) best work, IMO.

Yes. Fine movies. Not up to The Searchers, or Stagecoach, but great films.

Wayne has 20-30 movies I can watch again and again. He's way underrated.

Don't look at him as an actor. He's not an actor, he's a movie star. He played "John Wayne" 50 times, but they're almost all great.

This is crazy talk. Once Upon a Time in the West might be Leone's 3rd best Western.

You belong in a tree, because you're a nut! That movie is awesome and I will brook no dissent. Robards, Bronson and Fonda more than make up for a lack of Eastwood. Not to mention the greatest score in movie history.

I always liked the "John Wayne" character, especially in his early black & white movies. But since I'm not a fan of westerns, I wish he'd played in some gangster movies or films noirs just for a bit of variety, sort of like Cagney and Bogart did when they starred in The Oklahoma Kid. And I think that he would have been very good in them, given any sort of decent script.

Deadwood has ruined me for westerns.

Denny's for me.

Denny's for me.

I was in a Denny's near Seattle earlier this year and ordered eggs and hashbrowns and the waiter was completely flummoxed. Eggs and hashbrowns is no longer on the menu as a breakfast. WTF?

Not to mention the greatest score in movie history.

Again, you're thinking of The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Fonda (in his favorite role) is entertainingly evil; Robards is a fun bad guy with a good heart. But it's...so...slow. And Charles Bronson, expressionless doesn't equal cool and mysterious. It equals boring. Still, "Leone's 3rd best Western" is as good as most directors' best.

Deadwood has ruined me for wessterns.

I can understand that, it ruined me for cussin'.

My favorite westerns: "High Noon" and "The Wild Bunch".

But Marlon Brandon is almost unwatchable for me (except for The Godfather, and The Freshman, where he plays the Godfather again).

Talk about scenery chewing, over acting, emotive BS.

I continue to be amazed at the counterintuitive and iconoclastic thinking that is routinely expressed in BTF discussions. Brando is one of the most charismatic and intriguing actors (both movie and stage) of our time. He was an amazing force. This is like criticising Pujols for standing out on a baseball field.

I also love this interview with Richard Harris who talks about the origin of the Brando look.

Once Upon a Time in the West has Claudia Cardinale. Case closed!

I have to say that although it was made for TV rather than a movie "Lonesome Dove" ranks very highly as well.

I have to say that although it was made for TV rather than a movie "Lonesome Dove" ranks very highly as well.

I've never seen it completely front to back but I've seen the whole thing by now. I find it compelling. I love Duvall in the crusty old guy role, like Gus here and in the movie he made with Thomas Haden Church where they end up transporting a bunch of oriental women to safety.
I happen to be reading the book right now and it's a durn page turner. Lots of "pokes" and "carrot dippin'" along with trail stuff, murder and mayhem -- it's got it all.

Dead Man is a very solid western, too, if a bit weird and, maybe, over-literate.

Hang 'Em High is also one of my favorites.

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly brings to mind rainy Saturaday's when I was a kid. Some window company used to sponsor macho movies from the 60s and early 70s on one of the local channels here. Turned me into a big fan of stuff like the No Name Trilogy, Dirty Mary, Crazy Larry, Kelly's Heroes, and The Dirty Dozen.

Dead Man is a very solid western, too, if a bit weird and, maybe, over-literate.

Dead Man is an excellent movie. And The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly is the greatest western ever.

Dead Man is an excellent movie.

I highly recommend the DVD for Dead Man. There are a ton out outtakes and, if you watch them in order, it works like a parallel film to the final cut.

Best Westerns I've seen (movies, not hotels)...

Unforgiven
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

Some other thoughts on some other Westerns...

Oxbow Incident -- one of Fonda's better acted movies and Harry Morgan is good, though Jane Darwell is the best thing about the movie (I watched or re-watched it, My Darling Clementine, Gone with the Wind, and Grapes of Wrath all in the space of about two weeks a year or so ago and in each movie it took me a minute or two to realize that I was once again watching Darwell -- tremendously underappreciated character actress. She's Thomas Mitchell -- pops up everywhere -- but considerably more talented. Watch her in those four movies close together and you'll see what I mean. Although I like Lilian Gish's performance, I was stunned to recently learn that Darwell was the original choice for the foster mother in Night of the Hunter and am sorry that she didn't end up doing the movie).

The Searchers -- I was considerably younger when I saw it and I'll have to go back and watch it to see if I've changed my mind, but I expected greatness and was left wanting. Perhaps if I go back with lowered expectations, I'll appreciate it more.

The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance -- I'm about as big a fan of Jimmy Stewart as there is, and I'm not a terribly big fan of John Wayne, but (and it amazed me to think it after watching it recently), Wayne acts the pants off of Stewart in the movie. (Which really probably just means that Ford was being an ornery cuss editing-wise).

Winchester '73 -- many people haven't seen it, but it's my favorite of the Anthony Mann westerns. It's a notch below Unforgiven and The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, but it's about as good as any other Western I've seen. I haven't rewatched Naked Spur in quite a while, but my memory is I like it slightly less overall (while still liking it).

Once upon a Time in the West -- has some good set pieces and the cinematography in it is better than TGtB&tU;, but the pacing is too slow. Some of the music is terrific, but I lean towards TGtB&tU;for overall score -- like the overall movie, OuaTitW has more bits of its score which lag/are uninteresting to me than TGtB&tU;.

There are things to like about Little Big Man, High Noon, Shane, Destry Rides Again, most of the Anthony Mann westerns, Blazing Saddles, and Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid even if none of them are as moving/fun as my two favorite Westerns. I've not watched Stagecoach or the Wild Bunch or some of the other better known Wayne movies recently enough to comment on how well I like them.

I assume no one else considers Fists of Fury, The Road Warrior, or The Quiet Man to be Westerns?

I assume no one else considers Fists of Fury, The Road Warrior, or The Quiet Man to be Westerns?

I don't, no. They all share similar elements, though. I wish they hadn't stopped making Mad Max movies. That world was getting more and more interesting.

I had forgotten about Destry rides again, that is a great movie. I love the scene in My Darling Clementine when Walter Brennan asks Henry Fonda if he is still headed to California after his herd has been rustled and to watch the expression on his face when Fonda tells him that he is Wyatt Earp. Winchester '73 has my all time favorite character actor in it- the illustrious Abner Biberman, who not only was in Gunga Din and Another Thin Man but then went on a directed for years.

I wish they hadn't stopped making Mad Max movies. That world was getting more and more interesting.

OH RLY?

Will Max have a super motorized walker and fight to keep kids off of his lawn?

Yeah, let's hope they don't cast Mel Gibson.

edit: And no CGI. For the love of god, no CGI!

No love for "McCabe and Mrs. Miller"?

The link says Charlize Theron and Sam Worthington.

No love for "McCabe and Mrs. Miller"?

Hey, it's officially become an "no love for?" thread!

But to answer your question, absolutely not. That movie is boring and you can't understand what anyone is saying, and is only interesting if you are discussing its anti-Western features in a classroom setting. I love Altman and I love Westerns and the whole idea is very exciting to me but I really dislike that movie.

The Proposition was excellent. I am excited for Fury Road, although I do sort of wish that Gibson was attached and that the story would have been about Max getting old and feeble.

But to answer your question, absolutely not. That movie is boring and you can't understand what anyone is saying, and is only interesting if you are discussing its anti-Western features in a classroom setting. I love Altman and I love Westerns and the whole idea is very exciting to me but I really dislike that movie.

Well you're just wrong. wrong, wrong, wrong.

It equals boring

You mean like the laughably awful bridge sequence in the middle of tGtBatU? That clumsy little diversion just kills that movie's momentum dead.

Frankly, there's plenty of dull riding about in tGtBatU, lots of it just this side of overarchingly silly and none of it about anything all that interesting.