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Transaction Oracle — A Timely Look at Transactions as They Happen Monday, November 21, 2005Red Sox - Acquired Beckett and LowellBoston Red Sox - Acquired P Josh Beckett and 3B Mike Lowell for SS Hanley Ramirez and P Anibal Sanchez and a player to be named.A few years ago, the Twins had an impressive glut of outfielders and other weaknesses at the bottom of the rotation and the middle infield (though they didn't quite realize the extent to which the latter was a weakness). Not all of them or even most of them were stars, but they did have value at the time in filling the team's holes. But the Twins didn't do anything. They sat on their strength, whistled Dixie and watched their surplus fade away, none of the value realized. Kielty? One of the few they did trade, but for a player who's now just as mediocre and much more expensive. Restovich? Lost on waivers. Jones? Likely gone. Hunter? They wish he was gone. Those aren't the only player. What does this have to do with the Red Sox? The Twins had a choice either to use the value of players or lose the value of those players. They chose the latter. Given that Lucchino's thinking and organizational philosophy has won the day in the Byzantine environment of the Red Sox front office, it seems unlikely that a 1990s Brave mindset will be used for decision-making with the 2000s Yankees mindset being used instead. Young players in this organization are no longer the future stars of tomorrow - well, they may be, but not in Beantown. Now, the future is something to be avoided, the wall mended in place with duct tape instead of mortar. As such, the Red Sox had to either use Sanchez and Ramirez as players or trade them and get the value that way. Could this look horrible 10 years ago if Sanchez' arm stays on? Certainly. But it's better for Sanchez to star in Florida and the Red Sox get Beckett than Sanchez to pitch in Pawtucket for 3 years and watch his trade value go away. Ramirez is a lesser prospect than Sanchez, clearly hyped more than his performance has warranted, and if one wants to win now and damn the future, it's better to make someone else pay to try and wait and hope for Hanley's tools to become skills. One things the Marlins know how to do is commit to a rebuild. The post-1997 firesale was ugly, but just take a look at the post-1997 Orioles to see what a half-ass rebuild does. The Marlins dumped everything, built up a new team, won a World Series and started another rebuild cycle while the O's haven't even seen .500 in that span. 2006, this is a great trade for the Red Sox. If you're going for instant gratification, get something gratifying. And Beckett certainly does that. The constant blister problems are annoying but I'll take them over constant shoulder problems and the side benefit that Beckett has been very mildly used compared to other very good young pitchers. The question is - now that the Red Sox have crossed the Rubicon, will they now go all the way? Pedroia to Minnesota for Hunter? Lester for Kent? Papelbon for Wily Mo Pena? Youkilis for a random reliever? In for a penny, in for a pound. It's not how I would personally go about it, but there's more than one way to win a championship, I guess.
2006 ZiPS Projections ------------------------------------------------------------- Player W L G GS IP H ER HR BB SO ERA ------------------------------------------------------------- Sanchez 7 6 23 23 118 97 50 13 47 137 3.84 Beckett 14 7 27 27 161 150 69 14 52 140 3.88 2006 ZiPS Projections ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Player AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB BA OBP SLG ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ramirez 426 51 103 13 5 5 38 29 66 21 .242 .294 .331 Lowell 540 93 153 49 1 20 104 60 70 3 .283 .356 .489 |
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That's a real nice-lookin projection for Lowell. If he comes close to that then this a great trade for the Sox.
:)
The deal looks reasonable to me, though I'm not at all optimistic about a rebound for Lowell. I hope hope hope he doesn't get flipped to the Bucs on the rebound.
Yeah, but on the other hand, if it takes a week for this trade to be official, everyone will be tired of talking about it by then! I'll blame P-Gam if it doesn't go through.
I think that a smart GM can win the Yankee way, the Brave way, the Indian/Marlin way, the A's way, or any gradation in between. You don't need to nail a 95-point personnel manifesto to Bud Selig's door to have a consistent plan that works.
With all of that said, you're probably right that Lucchino isn't the man to find his way to glory using a flexible, mix-n-match talent strategy.
Don't do this Dan. It's very scary.
So the Red Sox have Papelbon, Wakefield, Arroyo, Miller, Wells, Clement, Schilling, and Beckett as starters?
They've talked about Paps in pen, which I think is the wise move. If Miller ever pitches again, maybe he'll be an insurance policy for them, and Wells is almost certainly going to be dealt.
Woody?
Arroyo might be gone by then too, in which case a rotation of Schilling, Beckett, Papelbon, Wakefield and Clement/Miller makes sense.
this could be a great trade if lowell bounces back.
Stop it.
That's quite an...interesting looking line for Sanchez.
He is a free agent
I don't know, but Wells might.
I think that would mean that Cris E is Matt LeCroy. I don't think that affects Lowell, or Frank Tanana.
What happens to Bill Mueller if all this happens?
I don't know, but I think that is a key thing to thin about when you people talk about trading Lowell elsewhere. Mueller is a free agent probably won't get a contract as generous as Lowell's. Getting much in return for him will be hard when there are other good free agent options available.
Mueller's low 2005 salary will make him a net positive with the contract he would get in arb. Boston might do well to sign him again and make a trade.
I bet they'll move Lowell and eat a huge chunk of his salary to get a decent prospect.
Even just NL champs in '08 or 2009 or 2010 will suffice qualifying "GUTTINGBALL" as the new trendy methodology.
It works well in Baseball Mogul, though the game is easy enough that it is more reloading with rookies than rebuilding. I'm guessing that being a real GM is somewhat tougher than playing a game against computer AI.
Well, considering earlier this past weekend, Blalock/Danks for Beckett/Lowell was reported as a done deal, to be complete by Monday per sources... I'd agree it's a bit too early for Red Sox fans to start celebrating/complaining.
I don't want to give up Lester for these muppets. Now I am getting angry...
I don't get it, either. The only reason we've heard anything other than "potential sleeper" about Ramirez is because he belongs to the Yankees/Mets/Red Sox triumvirate. The odds that Sanchez ever begins to approach Beckett are long to say the least.
Beckett is young, cheap and still has quite a ceiling on him. He's not even close to one of the bigger question marks in the Boston rotation. He's probably Boston's best starter even if he misses five starts with blister trouble.
Surely, the Marlins can do better.
Maybe they realise that and are going after Lester
He struck out 10.9 in A, 9.9 in AA. No way that translates to 10+ in the big leagues.
Unless they back out, I think the Marlins just got escrewed.
Well, he'd be facing pitchers in the NL and ProPlayer appears to markedly promote strikeous.
Furthermore, Hanley Ramirez is starting to remind me a lot of Freddy Sanchez, the last "budding star" the Sawks nurtured through their system before (wisely) trading him for whatever they could get a couple of years ago.
I don't think you could pick two more dissimilar prospects than Hanley Ramirez and Freddy Sanchez.
Going from the Eastern League to the NL should drop him quite a bit though.
Don't get me wrong, I was really high on both Sanchez and Ramirez, but when you get down to it there's a young pitcher and a toolsy player with injury problems and a spotty record. I don't think this is the opening of the floodgates, but I could be wrong.
Why wait till '08? The Indians might win in '06 with their team built on guttingball. How do you think they wound up with Sizemore, Westbrook, Crisp, etc? They gutted the 1990s power houses starting in 2002 and now have a new powerhouse.
Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis say hi.
To me, this move makes a ton of sense for the Marlins. Do the Marlins have a good shot at winning the World Series in the next two seasons? They finished tied with the Mets for third place and are losing their 3rd starter, their best reliever, and their RF. What's the point of keeping Beckett around to pitch 300-400 IP for a team that will in all likelihood not come close to making the playoffs? The Marlins aren't going to be able to afford Beckett when he becomes a FA anyway. Instead of those innings the Marlins are:
1) Saving a ton of money that can be used to sign Cabrera and Willis.
2) Getting two guys who could be part of the next Marlins team that makes the playoffs.
I think teams should do this more often. The only reason they don't is because they are afraid of their fans' reaction. The Marlins don't have to worry about that much because they simply don't draw well. They finished 14th in attendance in the NL in 2004, one year after winning the World Series.
Of course it looks great for Boston too, because they should be able to afford to sign Beckett to a long deal through his prime.
And Carlos Delgado says that he hasn't been traded yet.
All depends on what kind of payroll they can truly afford. Willis, Beckett, Delgado, Cabrera, Castillo, Lowell (if he bounces back) are damn fine players. LoDuca and Pierre are roughly average (Pierre's OPS+ stinks but historically he gets on base). If they could bring back Encarnacion (average) and Burnett (or bring in equivalent players), they'd still have an excellent core. And all but two of those guys would be 32 or younger. That would be a team not far from a shot at winning the World Series at all.
But it would be a pretty expensive team.
There are two courses of action that would lead to their signing him:
1. They offer arb and he accepts.
2. They offer arb, he declines, but they sign him anyway.
If it's the latter, I believe they can't trade him until midseason.
Nevertheless, I don't think they can afford to risk the former, unless Mueller is your new 2B. And I don't think that's wise.
What does this mean for the Greek God of Walks? 1B?
That's where I'd put him, though I suppose Lowell could move there instead.
Beckett lives on the DL. He will continue to have problems. If he notches 130 innings, I'd be surprised. Schilling is finished--Mr. red Light, it's time to go play with your bloody sock and your Nazi memorabelia. Clement will rebound from his shaky ending, if he can maintain decent control. Wells is sure to win at least 12 games. Wakefield is the most valuable guy here: he could pitch every three days and still come out of the bullpen on days off. Oh, and Lowell is pure liability. Since the drug testing, his numbers rolled off the table; he couldn't make the starting lineup on the 1962 Mets.
Who is Jesus Delgado? The spawn of Damon and Carlos?!
Holy Jesus!
Age ERA+ (IP)
Beckett Pedro
21 282-24 151-107
22 97-107 123-145
23 132-142 120-195
24 108-157 117-217
25 119-179 221-241 (cy with Montreal)
</PRE>
However, Beckett is a young 26 born in May, while Pedro was an old 26 when the Red Sox got him born in October, so a more accurate matchup would be this.
Age ERA+ (IP)
Beckett Pedro
21 282-24
22 97-107 151-107
23 132-142 123-145
24 108-157 120-195
25 119-179 117-217
26ish 221-241 (cy with Montreal)
</PRE>
If you line them up that way they are very comparable pitchers. Strikeouts, walks, the entire package. I can't possibly see what Dan is talking about this being a trade for the present. Odds are Beckett is going to be a better pitcher than Sanchez ten years from now. Beckett is less than four years older than Anibal Sanchez.
As for Lowell, here are the remaining careers of his age comparables.
BR scomp tool
And they also drew roughly a million more that season than they did in '02. Same for '05.
If the Marlins blow the whole thing up, I can't see this franchise being viable again barring a Yankees-esque run in the playoffs.
Count the "z"s, baby!
"As for Lowell, here are the remaining careers of his age comparables."
You can probably scratch Kurowski from that list. I don't think Lowell's likely to be diagnosed with a congenital bone disorder.
While I don't necessarily disagree with the first part of the statement, I gotta call BS on the seond half. We hear this crap all the time, but the fact is that throwing 100 or more pitches, even if they're mostly knuckleballs, is anything but effortless. And 60 mph is probably harder than most of the people who write this kind of stuff could throw their best fastball. Wakefield can start every five days and pitch in relief on one day in between, but I suspect that most starters could do that if they really wanted to.
The knuckleball also requires Wakefield to use a different motion than normal pitchers. Just because he's throwing an 80 mph fastball (or whatever) doesn't mean that it's not just as much work for him as another pitcher throwing a 95 mph fastball.
Just because he's throwing an 80 mph fastball (or whatever) doesn't mean that it's not just as much work for him as another pitcher throwing a 95 mph fastball.
I'm pretty sure that knuckleballers need as much rest between starts as any other pitcher, but throwing a knuckleball is a lot less un-natural and stressful than, say, throwing a slider. They're at a much lower injury risk, and they can work deeper into games without fear of wearing down.
The White Sox just added a knuckleballer, Charles Haeger, to their 40-man. I hope he gets a look at some point - I like knuckleballers.
It's got some risk: Beckett's shoulder could give out and Hanley could become not just a good, but a great, player. In terms of tools, Hanley is one of the most talented players in pro ball. Now, tools aren't performance, but if you'd seen Hanley play, you'd understand why he's been so highly rated. My sense is that he'll never reach his potential because he cannot sustain his performance over the long haul. He's excelled right after a call-up or in big games and been mediocre for the remainder. Plus, Hanley is blocked by Renteria.
Sanchez could be good, but he is clearly behind JonPapi and Lester. I see him as a #3 at best. He's tradeable.
I'm not saying that Beckett is Pedro, but this reminds me of the Armas/ Pavano deal for Pedro. 2 grade A prospects for a big league ace.
Great move for the sox (again). Coincidentally, both times without Theo (and I don't mean this as a knock in any way).
It would also seem possible that Schilling might be positive influence on Beckett.
Question for the Red Sox fans (of which I am definitely not one): would Epstein have done this?
I think probably yes.
Also, as a guy who doesn't like the Red Sox much, I am kind of liking this Catfish326 dude--;-0
That would be the year after he busted his knee running into a wall in Chicago. My big toe is comfortable with the injury explaining the rough following year. Lowell didn't miss any games and I still haven't heard any reasons for the downturn, so I'm not convinced a team on a tight budget should be betting on a rebound. I understand bad years happen, but he was awful last season.
As to Lowell's 58 RBIs . . . Little Freddie Patek knocked in 60 RBIs in 1977.
RHP, crap. Now I have no idea why they put him/were thinking about putting him on their 40-man roster. I'd think Durbin would be a much more likely rule 5 choice.
He got old?
http://www.rotoauthority.com/2005/11/becketts_boston.html
IP 205.3 SO 178 ERA 3.77 W 16
No way. This guy has never pitched over 160 innings, until last year (he only hit 178). Now, after 5 years of averaging 121 innings per season, he hits 208? Shyaa. He's been on the DL 9 times in 4 years.
link
As the top 5 AL pitchers don't average 275 innings each, I don't think that translation is a relevant or useful starting point. I have no idea why he uses it as one.
why are you asking me, i'm not doing the projection.
I thought you may be familiar with the source. The page you linked to didn't provide a rationale for using such translated stats.
"His biggest problem remains his bursts of anger when things go wrong on the mound. He still struggles to put bad pitches and bad calls behind him and tends to brood, sometimes for days, after disappointing outings."
Great. Another hot-head in Boston.
That Lowell can't hit anymore? I think it's pretty well established by now, personally.
IMHO Sanchez has the highest upside of the trio actually. You're not going to find any holes in his numbers this year. But I'm not sure why the injury risk floats around with his name either. He's only had TJ surgery...nothing with the shoulder.
He's also about neutral, or maybe just leaning towards being a flyball pitcher and calling Pro Player home never hurts in the HR department.
Nah. Beckett has averaged only 121 inning over 5 years . . . on the DL 9 times in 4 years. No threat. And Lowell? Hah. A bum. 58 RBIs in 500 ABs. Little Freddie Patek smacked in 60 RBIs in 497 ABs one year. Lowell is a liability. I hope to see him in their lineup.
The Marlins have three young pitchers - Olsen, Johnson, and Vargas - plus Hermida and maybe Willingham that they can slot into their lineup, so they can get rid of some of a lot of the salary without too much pain. The proposed Lowell/Beckett trade addresses an organizational weakness by adding Hanley Ramirez as the SS of the future, allowing them to finally cut Alex Gonzalez adrift. There are also some rumors that Pierre could be traded, with Eric Reed (a Pierre clone, except that he's white) possibly slotting into CF.
Florida could do something like this by '07:
C LoDuca
1B Delgado
2B Castillo
SS Ramirez
3B Cabrera
LF Willingham
CF Reed
RF Hermida
SP Willis, Olsen, Vargas, Johnson, Sanchez
and then they need to build a bullpen.
-- MWE
right. i'm sure you'd much rather have jaret wright or carl pavano on your team.
oh wait, you already do...
talk about sour grapes.
really funny, troll. beckett was called up for 4 games at the end of '01.
He starts with Prospectus' translated stats. The benefit of that is he doesn't have to translate everybody to a neutral context first; he can rely on Davenport to do that, and presumably Davenport does it better than he could. The downside is that he starts with Davenport's context, and doesn't adjust to a realistic 2006 context (he does a park adjustment, but that's it). If you use his projections exclusively, it doesn't matter because they're all relative. But if you just see one projection, it's going to be off (mostly on the innings).
MikeE, I posted nearly that same possible lineup/rotation on Braves Journal. Who is Johnson, and is he a lot better than Logan Kensing?
Never distrust statistics my friend. He was nursing a hampered wing. Poor fella. Seemed to have some promise, yet, the injury bug always seemed to get him. Strangely enough, the bug seemed to find its way clear up the youngeters rear quarters, causing a two pronged dilemma: Extended time on the DL and nuclear emotional flairups. Perhaps the hampered chap could use some ointment and a few sessions with Dr. Nazi Schilling . . . perhaps he might come around.
a combo of dayn perry and will carroll.
someone please think of the children.
genetic engineering AND eugenics? that's it, emeigh, now you've done it.
C LoDuca
1B Delgado
2B Castillo
I doubt those 3 will be there in 2007, especially Carlos.
How about Jason Stokes to replace the traded Delgado?
FWIW, Kensing was shut down with elbow problems in August, and it's not clear how healthy he's going to be in '06.
Josh Johnson is a 22-YO righty who spent most of the season with Carolina. Excellent stuff, inconsistent command. I don't think he has a lot of upside, though.
-- MWE
-- MWE
His elbow operation wasn't TJ -- a nerve in his arm was giving him trouble and he had surgery to fix it.
Interview:
Yeah, that's why he seems cheesed off about it instead of doing the exultant gleeful Yankee fan thing.
I mean, Freddie Patek once had more RBIs than Mike Lowell did! He reeks!
Stokes = Dave Kingman.
-- MWE
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