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Speaking as Steinbrenner's banker, crap. But nobody cares about ROI, just R.
The other thread is focused on the Yankees it seems, so I'll try to get a Phillie angle here. What is wrong with the Phillie organization? This strikes me as a Dallas Green-type trade. Does he still have influence? Why do the Phillies over-value toolsy guys like Henry?
I'm rather indifferent. Can Abreu save pitch in the 7th inning?
Can Abreu pitch in the 7th inning is my damn question.
I'm very dubious of signing free agents these days, as they are overpaid and signed for too long and very often become albatrosses. I'd just as soon have Abreu for the next 1.3 years and take the 2 draft picks when he walked, if I had the caj*nes to offer 12 mil in arbitration.
Certainly Lidle could have brought some Class A player with some upside by himself.
Abreu's power loss is a concern for the Yankees. I wonder if pitchers will start to go after him more. I had not seen it this year but in that lineup, he might be the guy you go after.
I'm not saying that this won't happen, but it's a pretty messed up baseball world where Bobby Abreu is the guy in the lineup that you go after.
April .550
May .471
June .404
July .313
I'm thinking that each of the Yankee starters can have their own personal servant bringing them hor d'oeuvres in between at-bats in the dugout. And a personal caddy to bring each his bat on the on-deck circle. A-Rod can spare his extra one to serve Cano. That would be so cool.
If Abreu is worth A-ball quality players, that must mean Burrell is worth two American Legion players and the slugging beer-bellied first baseman on the company softball team.
I agree. I also think that I read somewhere that the Mets were one of the teams that Abreu would have gone to.
This leads me to believe that Abreu might be a touch in the done column.
On what grounds could this be vetoed? What is this, a roto league? Maybe all the other owners should get togther and vote on every deal.
Get ready for the plexiglass principle to take effect.
You've never seen Abreu play if you think he's gold-glove caliber. He's better than Pat "I field and hit like Incaviglia" Burrell but thats no great feat. I'd say Abreu is a slightly below-average fielder with a good throwing arm from watching him 60-70 games a year -- so right about average all together.
Which makes him about a million times better in the field than Bernie Williams.
Over his last 601 ABs, Abreu has a slugging percentage of .424. The bounce back may not be very large.
Which still does not make him any more a Gold Glove outfielder than Gary Sheffield.
Giambi can help Abreu with that. Abreu has a vitamin deficiency.
Man, did you nail that one on the head. He has a decent arm and fair range, but he fields fly balls like a kid in school prematurely woken up from a daydream (this also happens on the basepaths: see Friday's game when he was picked off first), from throwing to the wrong base to getting atrocious jumps on balls hit his way. He's a helluva hitter but merely an average fielding RF and was crucified in Philly for, among other things, seeming to not care whether he won or lost and playing below his perceived talent level.
Does anyone know Abreu's relationship with Bowa, with whom he's gonna share a dugout?
Is Abreu on a HoF path? I understand he's having a bad year, but if that's an isolated thing, would he be otherwise HoF bound?
Not with the ASG snubs, I wouldn't think.
I'm not. And even if they would have, I'm not sure the Phillies really would care. They wanted the salary dump, period. The talent was totally irrelevant here. So if they could get the salary dump from the Yankees, why strengthen a team in their own division instead?
The reason, by the way, I'm not sure the Mets would have made a better (or any) offer is because I think they'd have insisted on the Phillies eating some of the dollars. Omar wants so save some of his Matsui/Floyd contract savings for 2007 for FA shopping; I don't think he wants to give it all up right now on Bobby Abreu.
That doesn't include his arm, BTW
The Phillies didn't get much but I understand why the Phillies made this deal. The Phillies are less than the sum of their parts and have been so for a few years now. There's no reason a team with that amount of talent should be closer to last place than first place. I guess management grew tired of waiting for the Phillies to break through.
I'm not. And even if they would have, I'm not sure the Phillies really would care. They wanted the salary dump, period. The talent was totally irrelevant here. So if they could get the salary dump from the Yankees, why strengthen a team in their own division instead?
The reason, by the way, I'm not sure the Mets would have made a better (or any) offer is because I think they'd have insisted on the Phillies eating some of the dollars. Omar wants so save some of his Matsui/Floyd contract savings for 2007 for FA shopping; I don't think he wants to give it all up right now on Bobby Abreu.
Yeah, I'm torn about tying up so much salary in Abreu for next year. This year I don't mind, but I don't want Omar hamstrung in his pursuit of the top FAs this offseason. It's only the Yankees that can offer a player 10+ million and not blink an eye in benching him if it doesn't work out.
I've heard that many teams are in good financial shape. The contracts offered this offseason should be bumped up accordingly.
Which top FAs are these? Somebody around here listed the guys who are hitting the market this winter and it's none too inspiring, beyond Lee and Soriano.
Here is a list of the FAs: link
Weakish class and tons of money to be spent.
The market $/win is going to get crazy.
stiffs, or something in between?
This is a great site for info about contracts, salaries, etc.
Which top FAs are these? Somebody around here listed the guys who are hitting the market this winter and it's none too inspiring, beyond Lee and Soriano.
The Mets will need 1-2 frontline pitchers, depending on whether Glavine returns. And of course, there's that tasty Cuban IFer/OFer who is rumored to be offering his services.
I aim for Gourriel, Matzusaka, and either Schmidt or Zito. That's a heavy bill.
what happens is that players get worse defensively as they age, but sometimes you forget to re-evaluate a guy each year. then he gets traded to the yankees and you look up his stats and you realize he's like 55 years old, well past time to take another look at his defense. you look at his defense and you realize that he's not quite as good as he was when he was 24--hence, the immediate downgrade upon being shipped to the yankees.
That guy will get at least $12MM/yr I would imagine.
That guy will get at least $12MM/yr I would imagine.
He hasn't made that choice yet, but it would be the first year he will be eligible to be posted. Since all the big stars from Japan have taken the challenge, I would imagine that Matzusaka will as well. Yeah, I also think he is going to be expensive.
Couldn't someone else just negotiate with him next year?
I know baseball has an exemption from U.S. anti-trust laws, but I doubt they have one from Japanese laws. Of course, I have no idea whether Japanese laws would cover this, but it's worth noting that such conduct would be a blatant restraint of trade under U.S. anti-trust law, if it could apply.
If Gourriel has defected it sounds like he'll be a Yankee, and I think if Matsuzaka is posted he will be to since the Yankees are doing all the right things to make nice with Seibu and I've haerd Matsuzaka would like to join Matsui on the Yankees. I think you'll get at least one of either Schmidt or Zito, though, and I still wouldn't be surprised about Sori or Lee playing LF next year in Shea.
Then you simply offer him a league minimum salary, and he goes back to Japan, and you're not overpaying, and no one else gets him.
And you're out $50 million since you pay the money to the team and it doesn't matter whether you sign him or not. Also, the team that wins the bidding wil be hand picked by the team with no outside forces influencing their decision. Because of this the team that is the winner is the team that does things the way Seibu ownership likes and will have the final shot to win.
He's been in Cuba, shut off from news about the US. He hasn't been told that the young and rising team in NYC are the Mets. El Duque will explain that to him.
Because of this the team that is the winner is the team that does things the way Seibu ownership likes and will have the final shot to win.
Time for the Mets to flash some diplomacy skills. Convince Seibu that the Yankees are like the evil Yomiuri behemoths - why feed the monsters?
I know a lot of people think highly of Gourriel, but is he really ready to dislplace a future HOF like Cano?
I know. Everyone wants to be me.
It's a tough life to live, but someone's got to do it.
F
That's right...proper ######
2) Matsuzaka rocks and wouldn't cost two draft picks. I think he's the guy who has a chance to be Pedro-like (recent Pedro, not peak Pedro) both in his performance and his ability to bring excitement and a crowd.
3) I like Floyd; enough that I'm sort of hoping that we bring him back and ditch Nady. Floyd-Beltran-Milledge with Chavez as the 4th gives us the best defensive combination.
They could afford it but they (a) almost never do it because (b) they almost never have to do it. For god's sake, so far even the Giambi contract hasn't been that bad. They may overpay, but they know talent and they make very few big mistakes when it comes to big-money players.
is he really ready to dislplace a future HOF like Cano?
Well, he's certainly not going to replace Cairo because Cairo does all the little things you need to do to win.
Big Unit, Contreras, Pavano, Wright, Vazquez, Mondesi, Aaron Boone, Lofton, Lawton, Canseco ... it's just selective memory at work. You don't remember their busts because they can clean it up easier than any other team.
These were terrible, though I still contend that Contreras was a good contract ruined by bone-headed coaching.
Aaron Boone, Lofton, Lawton, Canseco
Lawton and Canseco were on the team for about a month and a half apiece and were hardly costly. Lofton's contract was nothing remarkable, either. Boone blew out his knee before we could figure if the contract was reasonable or not and they voided it for not too much.
When he was able to make his way to the mound. And he blew Game 7 of the ALCS early. They were cooked the minute he stepped on the mound.
ridiculous.
They're worse than any other team at big-money players.
Kevin Brown, Jaret Wirght, Irabu, Karsay, Womack, Loaiza, Ventura, Drew Henson, Neagle
Canseco? Come on now. He was a waiver claim. Nobody was expecting 40/40 out of the juice head. Lofton didn't cost that much. And who would have thought Javy's career was set to spiral down the crapper? So strong was the legend of Javy that people STILL think he's good to this day.
I say you're right about Johnson, sort of, he'll have 15 wins this year but a high ERA. They don't make the Post-Season last year without him, though. Jaret Wright... yuck. He'd actually be a decent back end guy if he cost 3 Mil instead of 7.
Who's this Carl Pavano you speak of?
Loaiza was on the team for two months. He wasn't big-ticket. Ventura was pretty good. Certainly not egregiously overpaid. The Yankees have certainly overpaid for at least their fair share of under-performers, but those two aren't them.
I predict that his August/September ERA will be around 6. He sucks.
Still, that is only Vazquez, Brown, and Pavano that haven't worked out and one could say that Vazquez is questionable since he had a decent year and was traded right away.
In other words, Walt is right. The Yankees are usually right on the big ticket guys, the only resaon we can name a few busts is because they do the big ticket thing so often.
I want to see Shonsuke Watanabe in the Sox pen next year.
The fella who posted about this team just needing to shake things up had it right. There's too much perceived talent all over this club to have it suck the way it does. Howard and Utley are studs. Burrell, Rollins, Rowand, and the catcher spot have been average (they all have their faults tho..), Bell was a debacle, the starting pitching has been poor, and the bullpen overworked.
If they only could have gazed into the crystal ball and seen that they should have traded Abreu at the middle of last year, they'd have gotten something better in return. They forgot to buy low and sell high. Once it became apparent that Abreu was on the decline with performance they decide to move him and frankly he's just not worth as much as this point.
Lidle had actually been a good SP of late. He was very consistent. I don't have his log right here, but I think for the season 90% of his starts were about about 5-6 innings, 3-4 runs. Of late, he'd done a lot better. I imagine they had to throw him into the deal to get the yanks to take Abreu's salary (or at least that's what Cashman sold, and the Phils bought it!)
Yeah, that sounds about right ... Lidle would've fetched Monasterious himself.
Henry and Sanchez, their production has been pretty lousy so far, but their talent level is pretty similar to the first and sandwich pick the Phillies would get for keeping Abreu until he left in free agency.
So basically, the Phillies traded a borderline Hall of Famer who is only 32 and, even if his power is sapped, would still make for the premier leadoff hitter in baseball right now for a decent lefty set-up man. Ed Wade lives!!!
This is basically malpractice by Gillick, unless the other shoe to drop is that the Phillies are cutting back payroll pretty drastically next year, and hence his hands were tied. For all the salary dump screeching, this wasn't a Todd Helton contract ... the Phils were in for one more year at $15M, and a $2M buyout after that. They already had $30M to spend (based on this year's budget) before this move. Based on what Gillick said last week, he's not going to spend heavily on starting pitching, which is what they need, and based on what he said yesterday, it seems like he's not even going to spend to compete in 2007. So why clear off $45M if you're not going to spend? Methinks some of the owners want new shore houses.
That said, I'd love to see them offer Baltimore Pat Burrell and Jimmy Rollins for Tejada. If the Phils took Rodrigo Lopez off their hands, I wonder if Baltimore might bite. Of course, then they'd have to convince Burrell to go to Baltimore. (Thank you Ed Wade for those stupid no-trade contracts....)
Great trade for the Yanks. Looks like somewhere in the neighborhood of two wins over the remainder of the season. For the Phillies, I don't think it makes much sense, but apparently Cashman was insistent on Lidle if he was going to take Abreu's contract.
Two problems:
1) Gillick has said he won't go after free agent pitching.
2) Utley and Howard aren't due major raises for a couple years; by that point ABreu's contract would have been off the books anyway.
Shore houses is dead on.
I would expect Abreu to bat third or fifth. Torre ain't taking Damon out of leadoff, Jeter will stay in the 2-hole, then I would put Abreu 3d, Rodriguez at cleanup, then Giambi. I guess you could put Abreu 5, with Giambi at cleanup, but that doesn't seem as good to me, because it would be nice to actually have the first 4 hitters in the lineup be guys who can actually run the bases a bit.
While I have no problems with the move I do want to point out that I think the argument quoted above is BS, the major advantage of the Yankees and to a lesser but still true extent the RedSox should be to inulate themseleves from injury by having better backups on hand. The Yankees didn't, and that isn't a reason to rally behind this scrappy bunch, but another reason to accuse the FO of piss poor talant managemnet.
The Red Sox are also guilty of this.
MHS, a logical extension of this is that if someone carelessly smokes in bed, starting a house fire, you wouldn't want to help him out of the fire.
Helping this person out and being glad he's OK is completely separate from condemning him as stupid for causing that situation. But all he and you can do after the fire has started is to fix/minimize the damage.
Sure, both of our FOs have built flawed teams. But all they can do now is to improve them, and they should be commended for that if it works.
DFA Ponson and retro 60 day DL Sheffield?
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