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Monday, August 06, 2007

Barry Bonds-Double Duplicity

I have insight into the Barry Bonds “achievement” that I would like to share before he breaks Henry Aaron’s estimable record. Thus:

In addition to alleged steroid use, Bonds is unquestionably guilty of the use of a mechanism that confers extraordinarily unfair mechanical advantage: the apparatus that he wears on his front elbow. Many have remarked that his “protective” gear permits Bonds to lean over the plate without fear of being hit. Thus situated, Bonds sees the outside pitch (where most pitchers live) as a pitch down Broadway. This is unfair advantage enough but, in fact, only one of at least seven unfair advantages conferred by the apparatus. Other advantages:

2) The apparatus is hinged at the elbow. It is a literal “hitting machine” that allows Bonds to release his front arm on the same plane during every swing. It largely accounts for the seemingly magical consistency of every Bonds stroke.

3) The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section that fits into a groove in the bottom of the top section. The locked arm forms a rigid front arm fulcrum that allows extraordinary, maximally efficient explosion of the levers of Bonds’ wrists. Bonds hands are quicker than those of average hitters because of his mechanical “assistant.”

4) When Bonds swings, the weight of the apparatus helps to seal his inner upper arm to his torso at impact. Thus “connected,” he automatically hits the ball with the weight of his entire body -not just his arms -as average hitters ("extending") tend to do.

5) Bonds has performed less well in Home Run Derbies than one might expect because he has no excuse to wear a “protector” facing a batting practice pitcher. As he tires, his front arm elbow tends to lift and he swings under the ball, producing pop-up fly balls or topspin liners that stay in the park. When the apparatus is worn, its weight keeps his elbow down and he drives the ball with backspin.

6) Bonds enjoys quicker access to the inside pitch than average hitters because his “assistant” -counter-intuitively - allows him to turn more rapidly. Everyone understands that skaters accelerate their spins by pulling their arms into their torsos, closer to their axes of rotation.
When Bonds is confronted with an inside pitch, he spins like a skater because his upper front arm is “assistant"-sealed tightly against the side of his chest.

7) At impact, Bonds has additional mass (the weight of his “assistant") not available to the average hitter. The combined weight of “assistant” and bat is probably equal to the weight of the lumber wielded by Babe Ruth but with more manageable weight distribution.

There are additional important advantages - too technical to address here- that I’ll save for the hitting mechanics book that I’m writing (Charlie Lau was completely wrong about “extension").

Several years back, baseball was rightfully scandalized by the revelation that Sammy Sosa had “corked” his bat. The advantages conferred by The Bonds “hitting machine”, however, far exceed anything supplied by cork. Although it’s impossible to arrive at an accurate figure, I would estimate that Bonds’ “assistant” has added no fewer than 75-100 to his already steroid-questionable total. Ultimately, Bonds’ “achievement’ must be regarded as a product of double duplicity.

Snabby Posted: August 06, 2007 at 08:04 AM | 88 comment(s)
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   1. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 08:36 AM (#2473580)
He is also rumored not to need an athletic cup, which reduces the need for the distracting crotch grab so many players fall victim to.
   2. North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan Posted: August 06, 2007 at 08:45 AM (#2473585)
This is very silly.
   3. Jolly Old St. Nick (now, with Screen Name history) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 08:48 AM (#2473588)
The only problem with all of this is that even if everything you say about this miracle pad is true, it's a product that can presumably be obtained by anyone else, without the sort of side effects associated with steroids. It's no more of an unfair competitive advantage than a vitamin pill or a good batting coach.
   4. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 06, 2007 at 08:58 AM (#2473597)
The only problem with all of this is that even if everything you say about this miracle pad is true, it's a product that can presumably be obtained by anyone else, without the sort of side effects associated with steroids. It's no more of an unfair competitive advantage than a vitamin pill or a good batting coach.


Exactly. I don't see how you can fault anyone for using something that is within the rules of the game.

-- MWE
   5. rfloh Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:07 AM (#2473602)
Another problem with this analysis: where is the evidence that this is true?
   6. AROM wants you off his lawn Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:12 AM (#2473606)
The only problem with all of this is that even if everything you say about this miracle pad is true, it's a product that can presumably be obtained by anyone else

Didn't MLB issue a crackdown on body armor, and sort of grandfathered it in for players who were already using it as some kind of "medical excuse"?
   7. Dan The Mediocre Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:15 AM (#2473607)
Someone signed up just to post this?

Would he also tell us about a rogue planet that's going to flip Earth on it's axis?
   8. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:18 AM (#2473612)
this is a parody, right?

(right???)
   9. Howie Menckel Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:18 AM (#2473613)
If it WAS true, it could be considered a reason to say Aaron "deserves" the record because he didn't have this opportunity.
Seems the issue isn't whether Bonds has unfair advantage over active rivals - it's Aaron we're looking at, no?

Having cleared that hurdle, the next one is:
Does anyone with any credibility believe this is true?

That may be a much higher bar...
   10. Howie Menckel Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:19 AM (#2473614)
Forgot to tip my hat to this line:
"although it’s impossible to arrive at an accurate figure, i would estimate that Bonds’ “assistant” has added no fewer than 75-100 to his already steroid-questionable total."

awesome
   11. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:24 AM (#2473618)
Same article is also here.

I think this is the same guy.

-- MWE
   12. rfloh Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:24 AM (#2473620)
#9

Aaron also didn't have access to the advances in medicine and sports science that Bonds does. But then, Ruth was even worse off...But what about the guy whose record Ruth broke then?
   13. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:27 AM (#2473623)
where is the evidence that this is true?

It must be true, I read it on the internet.
   14. FelizForPresident Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:27 AM (#2473624)
Bonds has performed less well in Home Run Derbies than one might expect because he has no excuse to wear a “protector” facing a batting practice pitcher


Caught!...maybe this is why Bonds always hits in the cage instead of taking BP with his teammates...
   15. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:30 AM (#2473627)
Barry Bonds is the Cowboy Bob Orton of baseball!

Although according to my indisputable pinpoint research, Bonds' elbow armor has only added somewhere between 66.5 and 67.2 home runs to his total. The actual total is unknowable.

Those ~67 go with the 103 he got from steroids, the 26 from HGH, the 0 from amphetamines, the 19 from hitting ahead of Ray Durham, the 2 hologram-aided shots, the 5 he stole from Ron Kittle by burglarizing Elias, and the 31 off pitchers who unknowingly bought watered-down dosages from Greg Anderson. In my system, Bonds is also credited with the 3 would-be home runs knocked from the sky by the hangdog forcefield created by the power of Bud Selig's dejection.
   16. EddieA Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:43 AM (#2473636)
He's certainly never seen Bonds in batting practice.
   17. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:43 AM (#2473637)
Does "snabby" = Witte, or did he just cut and paste Witte's article?
   18. SoSH U at work Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:06 AM (#2473660)
Not that I have any reason to believe his theory, but when did Bonds' start using the device and how does that correlate with his home run rate? That might have been an interesting detail to include in Mr. Witte's piece.
   19. retro-shiite Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:34 AM (#2473682)
This article is both hilarious and stupid. Or stupidly hilarious.
   20. simon bedford Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:43 AM (#2473692)
I thought Bonds starting using this device after he got his arm shattered in 99
   21. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:47 AM (#2473697)
103 he got from steroids, the 26 from HGH, the 0 from amphetamines, the 19 from hitting ahead of Ray Durham, the 2 hologram-aided shots, the 5 he stole from Ron Kittle by burglarizing Elias, and the 31 off pitchers who unknowingly bought watered-down dosages from Greg Anderson.

"and two hard-boiled eggs"
   22. Snabby Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:55 AM (#2473709)
Barry Bonds has been, from the beginning of his career, a brilliant hitting technician. The "armor" that he wears on his elbow enhances and reinforces those mechanical things that he does so well. Bonds began wearing a one -piece guard in '92. In '94, it evolved into a hinged affair and was refined over the years until it arrived at its current, most sophisticated design in '01, the year Bonds hit his extraordinary 73. In the early years of his career, lacking "armor", Bonds never achieved an OPS above 1.000. Beginning with the first appearance of armor in '92, he surpassed that number and continued to do so until last year, culminating in the incredible OPS numbers, 1.379 and 1.381 in '01 and '02, the years of alleged steroid use....Snabby (Witte)
   23. Padgett Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:56 AM (#2473711)
Does "snabby" = Witte, or did he just cut and paste Witte's article?
If the latter, somebody should probably take this down. And why is everything but the first paragraph in quotes?
   24. Dan The Mediocre Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:58 AM (#2473717)
And why is everything but the first paragraph in quotes


It's the entire article that's been quoted. And based on the first sentence in the post, I'd assume the whole thing was copied.
   25. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:08 AM (#2473731)
2) The apparatus is hinged at the elbow. It is a literal “hitting machine” that allows Bonds to release his front arm on the same plane during every swing. it largely accounts for the seemingly magical consistency of every Bonds stroke.

1)The elbow is already a hinge
2)A level swing is dependent on the shoulder

6) Bonds enjoys quicker access to the inside pitch than average hitters because his “assistant” -counter-intuitively - allows him to turn more rapidly. Everyone understands that skaters accelerate their spins by pulling their arms into their torsos, closer to their axes of rotation.

It's called "moment of inertia" and if it were true that pulling in your arms generated more bat speed we would expect to see more hitters short-arming the ball.

7) At impact, Bonds has additional mass (the weight of his “assistant") not available to the average hitter. the combined weight of “assistant” and bat is probably equal to the weight of the lumber wielded by Babe Ruth but with more manageable weight distribution.

Why is this weight distribution better? Isn't it ideal to have weight concentrated at the end of the bat? Shouldn't power hitters be chocking up to take advantage of your hypothesis?

3) The apparatus locks at the elbow when the lead arm is fully elongated because of a small flap at the top of the bottom section that fits into a groove in the bottom of the top section. The locked arm forms a rigid front arm fulcrum that allows extraordinary, maximally efficient explosion of the levers of Bonds’ wrists. Bonds hands are quicker than those of average hitters because of his mechanical “assistant.”

To take advantage of the counter-weight he would be pulling his elbows in toward his body. Here you're saying that the guard helps him lock the elbow at full extension.
   26. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:18 AM (#2473749)
Witte's theory is certainly interesting...I have no idea if the theory has any merit, but I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Rejecting it b/c he hasn't fully tested his theory is no different than dismissing CBW's work because he hasn't "proven" anything.
   27. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!! Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:19 AM (#2473753)
Bonds, in using his "elbow" (which will hereafter be referred to as "hitting apparatus")--an almost perfect hinge--is conferred an unfair advantage as compared to his elbowless competitors.

It is estimated that he is able to hit the ball at least 20 times farther that players without hitting apparati in each upper body appendage. By my expert calculation, this accounts for approximately 7% of his already suspect HR total. Of course, a bizarro-world, elbowless Bonds has already shattered the sacrifice fly and productive out records--records far more sacred than the HR record.
   28. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:20 AM (#2473755)
   29. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:33 AM (#2473771)
I have no idea if the theory has any merit, but I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand.


Even assuming that the theory does have merit, Bonds's elbow pad has been sanctioned by MLB, unlike any alleged usage of steroids. If Bonds's performance weren't already being called into question because of the steroid controversy, this wouldn't matter one little bit, because it's not against the rules. I don't see why the existing shadow should require us to take this any more seriously than we would otherwise.

-- MWE
   30. Snabby Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:39 AM (#2473777)
1) The elbow is a hinge but the bottom hand can float above or below the elbow joint. The weight of the hinged armor stabilizes the front elbow as the arm elongates.

2) In fact, a level swing is controlled more by the action of the bottom hand wrist through and after contact with the ball.

6) On an inside pitch, the batter must break his front arm elbow and retract his front arm to get "inside" of the pitch.The back arm explode through into full extension (it's not "short-armed").
7) Weight away from a person's center is more difficult to manage. Try picking up any object with arms extended as opposed to close to the body. Bonds does choke up.(Snabby)
   31. Snabby Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:46 AM (#2473784)
Pops-3) Bonds' initial move with the knob of the bat is to elogate his front arm. If the pitch is outside, he just keeps going and his apparatus locks in place. His 755th home run was a perfect example of this move. When he identifies an inside pitch, he unbends the apparatus as described above (Snabby-Witte)
   32. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:47 AM (#2473786)
2) In fact, a level swing is controlled more by the action of the bottom hand wrist through and after contact with the ball.

The arm without the elbow pad?

The back arm explode through into full extension (it's not "short-armed").


Full extension is reached after contact and therefore does not create a fulcrum for his wrists.

7) Weight away from a person's center is more difficult to manage. Try picking up any object with arms extended as opposed to close to the body. Bonds does choke up.(Snabby)

That's simple torque, not the moment of inertia factor you are describing in the swing.
   33. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:54 AM (#2473791)
Skater spin is governed by the Conservation of Angular Momentum. The conservation of angular momentum explains the angular acceleration of an ice skater as she brings her arms and legs close to the vertical axis of rotation. By bringing part of mass of her body closer to the axis she decreases her body's moment of inertia. Because angular momentum is constant in the absence of external torques, the angular velocity (rotational speed) of the skater has to increase.
   34. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:55 AM (#2473794)
Even assuming that the theory does have merit, Bonds's elbow pad has been sanctioned by MLB, unlike any alleged usage of steroids. If Bonds's performance weren't already being called into question because of the steroid controversy, this wouldn't matter one little bit, because it's not against the rules. I don't see why the existing shadow should require us to take this any more seriously than we would otherwise.

Perhaps I didn't state my point clearly. I agree with you that Witte is wrong as to his claim that Bonds' cheated by using the pad since it's been sanctioned by MLB. What I think is interesting are his more specific technical claims about how the pad has helped Bonds.
   35. AROM wants you off his lawn Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:56 AM (#2473796)
I doubt the elbow brace helps him hit beyond taking away the fear of an inside pitch, but if it does, the fact that its sanctioned by MLB does mean Bonds is gaining an unfair advantage. It would be like the NBA deciding that invading the personal space of a superstar is considered a foul, while for everyone else a foul is only charged on a hit.

MLB sanctions means you can't call Bonds a cheater (for this), but if there's an unfair advantage then MLB needs to consider changing the rule.
   36. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:13 PM (#2473805)
Skater spin is governed by the Conservation of Angular Momentum. The conservation of angular momentum explains the angular acceleration of an ice skater as she brings her arms and legs close to the vertical axis of rotation. By bringing part of mass of her body closer to the axis she decreases her body's moment of inertia. Because angular momentum is constant in the absence of external torques, the angular velocity (rotational speed) of the skater has to increase.

Gee, I love that kind of talk.
   37. Sam M. Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:21 PM (#2473811)
It must be true, I read it on the internet.


I know it's true.
Oh, so true.
'Cause I saw it on TV.


God, I love John Fogerty.
   38. Jolly Old St. Nick (now, with Screen Name history) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:21 PM (#2473812)
The only question at this point is how many people are going to be suckered into taking this clever little parody seriously. It's like thinking that you can devise a perfect putter or a never miss pool cue, or that a similar device could help a quarterback time a 60 yard pass into the end zone.
   39. robinred Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:29 PM (#2473818)
Hey Andy, if Ryan Franklin starts wearing one of these, I'll be sure to tell you about it and ask why you didn't post about it.
   40. Jolly Old St. Nick (now, with Screen Name history) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:33 PM (#2473826)
Not if BBC beats you to it.
   41. Joey B. Posted: August 06, 2007 at 12:34 PM (#2473827)
It would be like the NBA deciding that invading the personal space of a superstar is considered a foul, while for everyone else a foul is only charged on a hit.

And we all know that the NBA is completely on the up-and-up and would never even consider this sort of preferential treatment to preferred superstars. :)
   42. Catfish326 Posted: August 06, 2007 at 01:12 PM (#2473878)
Also, batting gloves have been proven to provide an unfair advantage to hitters. They tend to allow the hitter to get a better grip on the bat. That is just not right.
   43. Snabby Posted: August 06, 2007 at 01:31 PM (#2473905)
Pops-Because the bottom (front arm) hand is the initial connection to the bat, how it functions is the primary determinant of bat function. Great hitters universally have a similar bottom hand wrist action that levels the bat just prior to and through impact. The move automatically imparts backspin to the ball..... Bonds' first move with the knob of the bat elongates his front arm (although not fully), causing his rotating torso to connect with his upper front arm at the the armpit, establishing a rigid front side fulcrum that allows the wrist levers to begin uncocking into impact........Just try swinging a sledgehammer (with weight distributed primarily in the head) like a baseball bat...Snabby-Witte
   44. Dan Szymborski Posted: August 06, 2007 at 01:44 PM (#2473921)
Don't forget travel. When Cap Anson put up a 191 OPS+, he wasn't on any fancy shmancy flying contrapulation or one of those new-fangled horseless motorcoaches like Orville Wright or Henry Ford or Albert Belle, he was taking trains and stagecoaches!
   45. Lunkus Posted: August 06, 2007 at 02:32 PM (#2473968)
Only cheaters wear shoes.
   46. Sam M. Posted: August 06, 2007 at 02:51 PM (#2473983)
Only cheaters wear shoes.

Where's Smitty when you need him?
   47. The Bones McCoy of THT Posted: August 06, 2007 at 02:58 PM (#2473991)
Where's Smitty when you need him?


Whoa there cowboy.

Best Regards

John
   48. Catfish326 Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:04 PM (#2474078)
Only cheaters wear shoes.

Pants help you slide. Caps unfairly keep the sun out of your eyes. Dounuts in the on-deck circle, unfairly help you make your bat lighter.
   49. Anthony Giacalone Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:11 PM (#2474096)
Won't everyone just leave poor Craig Biggio alone and let him have his records in peace?
   50. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:18 PM (#2474111)
By the way, is the contention that Bonds intended for this device to generate this result? Happened across it by accident and has since had it refined? Had it brought to his attention by a third party who designed it for Barry and never spoke about it since? Barry has been tinkering in his basement? It's actually an alien and in return for feeding off Barry's blood provides Bonds this advantage aka the SpiderMan alien websuit?

Under what scenario is this device not marketed? Barry has paid off the inventor? Had him killed? Ate him?
   51. The Polish Sausage Racer Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:18 PM (#2474112)
I wish I could be Harveys when (if) I grow up. Is there anything you don't have an informed opinion on?
   52. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:25 PM (#2474126)
Polish:

Well, that's kind of you to say except the part about always having an opinion. My wife says something similar, but it's never meant as a compliment.

But I really do struggle to understand the context around this alleged "hitting aide". If one reads "SkyMall" magazine on a plane there are devices on pet tracking. Plucking golf balls out of ponds from 30'. All kinds of niche instruments.

And here supposedly a star baseball player is utilizing a device to further leverage his already significant talents and nobody but this author has recognized or acknowledged said contraption in the 15(!) years of its use?

Who makes something that could revolutionize the act of hitting a baseball and isn't on late night TV hawking it for $59.95? You don't think every high schooler in America wouldn't buy such a device? Little Leaguer?

The inventor designed, built, and refined said hitting aide for the sole use of Barry Lamar Bonds?

I find that...........interesting.
   53. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:29 PM (#2474132)
Polish:

As a follow up if its the Angular Momentum post I was writing my own version and then remembered that Wilipedia likely had a cleaner version.

But the Conservation of Angular Momentum is pretty standard stuff to any mechanical engineer worth his salt. As soon as this author used that example I thought some background would be of assistance.

Once upon a time I was a pretty decent engineer. I stink at electrical circuits however. I can handle basic stuff but as soon as things like isolation transformers get involved my head begins to swim........
   54. The Polish Sausage Racer Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:29 PM (#2474133)
The key part there was "Informed." Harlan Ellison once told me (and I've seen him quoted on this elsewhere, so it's a line he uses a lot), "You're not entitled to your opinion. You're entitled to your informed opinion."
   55. AROM wants you off his lawn Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:39 PM (#2474147)
Under what scenario is this device not marketed? Barry has paid off the inventor? Had him killed? Ate him?

Liquefied him, put him in a syringe, and injected him where the sun don't shine.
   56. what the hell, just use your initials or something Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:51 PM (#2474159)
Well, Harlan Ellison is wrong. Unfortunately, we are all absolutely entitled to be un-, mis-, or ill-informed if we so choose.

As for this article, I've done some research of my own, and confirmed that even with the Bonds' exercise program, nutritional program, pharmacological program, and mechanical swing enhancer, Rick Miller still couldn't hit a home run from second base.
   57. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: August 06, 2007 at 04:59 PM (#2474170)
looks like i'll have to climb up on my hobby horse again for this one. just a moment while i adjust myself in the saddle....

ok. editorial control around here SUCKS. i understand that sometimes stupid articles can lead to good discussions, but it's annoying that people can submit their own work and have it linked in a highly prominent place (newsblog and NOW featured articles). there is a good deal of work to be done just correcting the morons in the mainstream media without people like this polluting the water. there's a reason you don't #### in your own backyard.

i mean THIS JACKASS DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO THE FREAKING ARM GUARD IN THE FIRST PLACE. he's analyzing it from video, if he's even doing that. i wouldn't be surprised if he and his friends were sitting around chugging beers and speculating about what this magical arm band does for bonds.
   58. Craig Calcaterra Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:14 PM (#2474188)
i mean THIS JACKASS DOESN'T EVEN HAVE ACCESS TO THE FREAKING ARM GUARD IN THE FIRST PLACE. he's analyzing it from video


Hey, it was good enough for Bill Frist . . .

I linked the editor and publisher version of this on my blog, not because I agree with any of it (for all I know Barry's elbow is encased in fontina cheese and magic), but because I believe it will be talked about a lot. Indeed, I stumbled across it first when a decidedly casual baseball fan of a coworker emailed it to me this morning accompanied by some garden variety Bonds outrage.

On that basis I defend it being linked here, even if the linker was self-interested. This article may be thoroughly debunked or may not even be worthy of a debunking. But people at large will be talking about it, so I think it's worth the time and effort of BTF readers to chew it over a bit if for no other reason than to be prepared to point out it's flaws to others.

I know that sounds really elitist ("BTF folks are here to save the world from ignorance") but I'm guessing it truly is the case that most of us are the most knowledgable baseball folks in any random workplace or family reunion converstaion circle, right?
   59. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: August 06, 2007 at 05:35 PM (#2474215)
actually, all i'm advocating is moving this type of material to a special section on btf. i don't want it completely gotten rid of, as it can spark a useful conversation. what i object to is that it is prominently linked. my first assumption with the featured articles and newsblog is that they are real news (newsblog) or top quality research (featured articles). i do not like to click on a link full of speculation by some internet nobody.

i will also defend the need to link to articles like this, no matter how poorly argued or researched. i just think that BTF should have a "your turn" or "your take" section where people can link their own blogs (and other people can link blogs they think are interesting). then, as i imagine it, blogs that become noteworthy can move up to the featured articles or newsblog as they demonstrate their worthiness. so, with you, i'm all for elitism on this site. there's a reason several prominent and highly intelligent posters have sworn off the site (Eric M. Van is one, if i'm not mistaken). let's not lose more because we dilute what we discuss.

i would rather see fewer articles of much higher quality linked (especially under featured articles) rather than filler (which is exactly what the newsblog is full of).
   60. Human Papelbon Virus Posted: August 06, 2007 at 07:04 PM (#2474264)
there's a reason several prominent and highly intelligent posters have sworn off the site (Eric M. Van is one, if i'm not mistaken)

So Piehole is actually Eric Van?
   61. Eric Chalek (Dr. Chaleeko) Posted: August 06, 2007 at 08:00 PM (#2474297)
As for this article, I've done some research of my own, and confirmed that even with the Bonds' exercise program, nutritional program, pharmacological program, and mechanical swing enhancer, Rick Miller still couldn't hit a home run from second base.

Yeah, but using Rick Miller's training regimen, can Barry Bonds play hot surf-swamp fusion rock while wearing a Lance-cracker t-shirt and tossing fried chicken to an audience?
   62. Danny Posted: August 06, 2007 at 08:14 PM (#2474305)
Eric Van, ha. I don't know what's funnier about his Wikipedia page: the Blue Steel pose or his arguing that he's too notable to have his page deleted.
   63. robinred Posted: August 06, 2007 at 08:24 PM (#2474318)
I believe it will be talked about a lot. Indeed, I stumbled across it first when a decidedly casual baseball fan of a coworker emailed it to me this morning accompanied by some garden variety Bonds outrage.

I know that sounds really elitist ("BTF folks are here to save the world from ignorance") but I'm guessing it truly is the case that most of us are the most knowledgable baseball folks in any random workplace or family reunion converstaion circle, right?


Probably, although I might choose the word "informed" over "knowledgable" but that is a quibble. Today, I have asked 12 people who consider themselves baseball fans,"Who was the only player on the field Saturday night at PETCO who has actually tested positive for steroids in the last two years?" including a guy who sees himself as the "expert" in our workplace and was explaining in detail to a rapt group why Bonds has "tainted" the record book. Only one--a woman who logs on to CNN.com every day saw it there coincidentally and is a very casual fan--knew the answer.

For the record, I think Bonds used and I support the testing program.
   64. robinred Posted: August 06, 2007 at 08:26 PM (#2474319)
I believe it will be talked about a lot.


At BPro, Will Carroll (whose work I do not like very much, BTW) has an "Unfiltered" post up, saying he has been asked about it all day and will write about it tomorrow.
   65. Jim Furtado Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:11 PM (#2474373)
I'm not a big fan of elitism. I am, instead, a big proponent of the quest for knowledge. I believe the members of this site are my fellow travelers in that quest. In my view, we're all in this together. I recognize not everyone shares this viewpoint. Nevertheless, although I've enjoyed and learned much from the insightful thoughts of the site's members, as yet, I have not stumbled upon anyone blessed with all-knowing knowledge of the game. Until such time that I do, I will continue to highlight interesting ideas from as many sources as I can. By doing so, the ideas presented will be examined. If the ideas are debunked, that's fine; it's part of the process. If the ideas become valuable additions to our knowledge-base, fantastic.

In this particular case, I found the letter Mike sent me interesting and told him I'd be happy to post it to the site. I also told him I'd be interested in reading the other research he's done. That's what I've done for years; that's what I'll continue to do.

What do I think of Mike's claims in this post? I'm not quite sure. I simply don't have enough information to form a definitive opinion. From what I've read on the interwebs today, I'm quite confident we'll be seeing more information on this topic. Regardless of the outcome, we'll learn something. And for that, I thank Mike and everyone who engages the topic.
   66. Jim Furtado Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:27 PM (#2474396)
Here's an interesting breakdown of Bonds' swing by Tony Gwynn.
   67. EddieA Posted: August 06, 2007 at 09:37 PM (#2474404)
CBS newsblog on the subject article
   68. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:10 PM (#2474445)
jim, i'm not saying stuff like this shouldn't be linked. i'm just asking to corral blogs to a specific area of the site, on the main page, so that people can separate it out from news and research. again, if a blog shows that it is worth linking in the main newsblog because of popular consent, then link it. but there have been a spate of articles like this one that are of questionable merit. all i'm asking is to let consensus decide what gets linked in PROMINENT places. and that you could monitor from the quality of the discussion a particular blog generates.

and no, i'm not eric van. one reason he left though, iirc, is a signal-to-noise ratio decidedly tilting toward noise.

in any case, now that i know you've heard my suggestion for how to improve the site, i'll step down off my hobby horse. but please consider adding a "your take" or "your turn" section for stuff like this (especially for self-submitted material), and let the community decide. pretty please?
   69. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:13 PM (#2474449)
and by the way, this is something chadbradfordwannabe should look at.
   70. Jim Furtado Posted: August 06, 2007 at 10:48 PM (#2474556)
Piehole, I'm still not pleased with the way content fits together on the site. Ultimately I need to develop a way to infuse the material members wish to contribute (more blogs, more news) while, at the same time, making it easier for people to find the information they are interested in.

I've spent quite some time researching the question and have quite a few ideas to improve the situation. I'll soon begin testing those ideas in a new beta area I'm setting up. Unlike the last site re-design (which took place while I was transitioning into a new position at work and with a server gasping to keep up with traffic), I have more time, better programming skills, a much longer timeline, and much improved server resources. I'm very confident the site will be a much better place come next season.

Anyone interested in providing feedback will get the opportunity to help shape the direction of the site.
   71. Human Papelbon Virus Posted: August 06, 2007 at 11:52 PM (#2474795)
and no, i'm not eric van. one reason he left though, iirc, is a signal-to-noise ratio decidedly tilting toward noise.

I don't think Van was ever a regular contributor to this site. That may be more true for Tango.
   72. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 07, 2007 at 12:03 AM (#2474835)
I don't think Van was ever a regular contributor to this site. That may be more true for Tango.


He used to contribute on Sox Therapy. His main contribution seemed to be the CFBPS, which if he didn't invent, he surely perfected.
   73. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: August 07, 2007 at 01:02 AM (#2475015)
rockin. your willingness to listen makes me happy.

i will be on the lookout for your call for feedback. i am full of ideas.

eric m van was a very regular contributor to baseball primer back in the day (on the old site). tango too. and voros disappeared after his job with the red sox, but that's understandable. don malcolm (who showed up recently) and others. all gone. we need those voices back.
   74. EddieA Posted: August 07, 2007 at 01:07 AM (#2475030)
It is a literal “hitting machine” that allows Bonds to release his front arm on the same plane during every swing.


Guess the young Nationals pitcher was throwing in the wrong plane tonight.
   75. Robert Machemer Posted: August 07, 2007 at 02:00 AM (#2475074)
others. all gone. we need those voices back.
And they (and many others) were once frequent posters to the usenet baseball groups. And back when they were, people were bemoaning the absence of people like Sherri Nichols and Mike Gimbel (and others). It's sometimes hard to identify a golden age, but it always seems to have already happened, doesn't it? The world isn't what it once was, but it wasn't that way then either...
   76. Fernandomania Posted: August 07, 2007 at 02:38 AM (#2475088)
Though you may think the premise is ridiculous, this is an interesting article and, according to the New Yorker, this guy is some kind of expert on pitching mechanics - so maybe he has some authority, I don't know. At least it's worth thinking about.

Anyhow...I play in an adult baseball league - anybody know where I can purchase one of these leverage machines? I'm an awful hitter.
   77. Mike Emeigh Posted: August 07, 2007 at 09:35 AM (#2475155)
Alan Nathan, chair of SABR's science in baseball committee and a professor of physics at the University of Illinois, had this to say on SABR-L (quoted with permission):

You make some good points, although I need to think about them a bit. In particular, it might well be true that the arm pad helps give him better swing mechanics. However, not all of what you say is correct, particularly point 6. The weight of the batter, his arms, any device attached to his arms or hands, etc. do not contribute to the impact of the collision with the ball, assuming the collision occurs in the barrel part of the bat. The collision is so rapid that the ball does not even "know" that the other end of the bat is there, let alone what is holding it. The batter could as well let go of the bat just before impact and it would not make any difference to what happens to the ball. I wrote a scientific article about this point several years ago. Your remarks about corked bats, while brief, suggest that using a corked bat might have given Sosa some advantage in hitting home runs. I wrote (and was interviewed) extensively about that incident back in 2003 and concluded that corking the bat did not improve Sammy's ability to hit a long ball.

I would like to see your analysis supporting your contention that "Bonds’ front arm “armor” may have contributed no fewer than 75 to 100 home runs to his already steroid-questionable total." How did you arrive at that number?


-- MWE
   78. EddieA Posted: August 07, 2007 at 02:16 PM (#2475410)
maker of the brace interviewed on baseball prospectus radio

Audio link
   79. TaySan Posted: August 07, 2007 at 02:52 PM (#2475443)
The article is up on BPro. The gist is that the guy who make Bonds arm protectors had to measure his arm precisely at the beginning of each season and he claims that it hasn't changed at all. I find this wholly unconvincing. Why would would his elbow area grow noticably from steroid use? He didn't measure the circumference of Bonds biceps or triceps.
   80. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:09 PM (#2475462)
For those who are interested this is the man's statemnt on Bonds arm:

Even after listening to the interview over and over, it still sounds wrong as he says it. Was his arm just unnaturally large, I asked? "No, I don't think so," Silva said. "Rickey Henderson's arm is more muscular than any arm I've seen, as far as definition, and Mo Vaughn's not a very small guy either."

The article also alluded to but did not specifically state that Silva took precise caliper measurements of Bonds entire arm in order to create the negative cast used to create his protective device.
   81. spycake Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:15 PM (#2475471)
The batter could as well let go of the bat just before impact and it would not make any difference to what happens to the ball.


Really? Wouldn't this essentially be throwing the bat at the ball?

I would like to see your analysis supporting your contention that "Bonds’ front arm “armor” may have contributed no fewer than 75 to 100 home runs to his already steroid-questionable total." How did you arrive at that number?


I'm going to guess he just looked at Bonds' established norms from the 90's and projected those into his post-2000 totals. I suppose he could have discounted his pre-2000 totals slightly as well.
   82. Bob T Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:31 PM (#2475487)
I believe Dr. Nathan's point is that if you threw the bat with sufficient bat speed and hit the ball, it would go just as far with similar bat speed with the bat in someone's hands.
   83. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:36 PM (#2475491)
The batter could as well let go of the bat just before impact and it would not make any difference to what happens to the ball.

DOes this mean that the batter's follow through is irrelevant?
   84. Padgett Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:36 PM (#2475492)
The article also alluded to but did not specifically state that Silva took precise caliper measurements of Bonds entire arm in order to create the negative cast used to create his protective device.
Yeah. I don't see any suggestion in the article that Silva measured only Bonds's elbow.
Silva explains that "it's a pretty labor-intensive. I take a negative cast of the arm. Each year, I make a cast of Barry's arm, a plaster mold. . . . If I made the same brace every year for 12 or more years, . . . it was because there was no size change in Barry's arms." . . . Silva said "there's been no significant change in the size of his arms."
The only fair reading of this is that Silva is measuring and making a mold of far more than just the elbow area.
   85. what the hell, just use your initials or something Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:57 PM (#2475520)
He didn't measure the circumference of Bonds biceps or triceps.

You ever look at the thing? It clearly straps on around the bicep.

DOes this mean that the batter's follow through is irrelevant?

Pretty much. Except that it would be pretty damned hard to stop the bat at the instant of contact without decelerating it before contact, and that certainly wouldn't help matters.
   86. what the hell, just use your initials or something Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:59 PM (#2475522)
BTW, I took a look at Bonds top 10 HRs on yahoo sports yesterday. It seems to me that he's much bigger now than he was when he hit 73, and the difference is all fat.
   87. EddieA Posted: August 07, 2007 at 04:38 PM (#2475558)
(86)
there was an AP sports photo of Bonds lifting his shirt to wipe off sweat during the early batting practice last Saturday. Not a pretty sight. The man could lose 25 pounds easy.
   88. Meatwad now with interlock! Posted: August 10, 2007 at 11:46 AM (#2479977)
oh and on 756 when he hit it, his front arm was not fully extended untill the follow through so i have i guess the pad doesnt help that much, and of course its not like your elbow allows the arm to move up and down not just back and forth. because after all only 2 people in the work have the easy flow elbow, bruce willis and romulox.
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