User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Buy MLB playoff tickets, plus 2011 World Series, 2011 ALCS tickets and NLCS game tickets. We also have Texas Rangers playoff schedule, tickets to Red Sox games and Yankees game tickets. Plus, buy Phillies baseball tickets, Tigers playoff tickets and the biggies like ALDS baseball tickets and 2011 NLDS tickets. |
Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats
|
AllianceTickets.com has cheap MLB Tickets. Get all your Colorado Rockies Tickets, Seattle Mariners Tickets, San Francisco Giants Tickets and all your favorite baseball tickets here. We also carry cheap Denver Broncos Tickets, Seattle Seahawks Tickets and Denver Nuggets Tickets. |
Page rendered in 0.6395 seconds
56 querie(s) executed

Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
IAE, a role where your best reliever protects a 3-run lead for an inning is clearly the wrong role.
Dotel in Houston would be a good case in point. Wagner is the "closer" but it sure looks like Dotel might be the "stopper".
Bobby Valentine is a pretty smart baseball guy, so you may have a point about the need for a closer to have a very fixed role.
However, there is another way to look at this: "flexible" closers are worth much more than "inflexible" ones. If a closer is able to handle close eighth-inning situations when called uon, his value goes up immensely (for a single player).
If I were a major league manager (God forbid!), I would think that this flexibility would be worth the gamble.
A question: Does this make the Koch for Foulke trade even more slanted toward the A's? Or am I wrong in my assumption about their use patterns?
2) In your simulations, does the Stopper pitch in the bottom or top (or equal amounts of both) of each inning? I'm guessing just the bottom of the inning, based on Cases 1 & 2. Isn't Case 2 just Case 1 plus the Stopper pitching in the 9th with the score tied? The difference in the results is an extra 3.39-2.17=1.22 wins above average (WAA) over 58-42=16 G or IP. So if the Stopper is pitching only in the bottom of the 9th, his WAA would be about 16*[(.85265-.7053)/2]=1.1788. That's pretty close to your simulated 1.22 WAA.
3) Is the mean and standard deviation of your Stopper runs allowed (RA) distributions reasonable? Have you tried the simulations with different distributions of runs allowed? I would think that Stoppers would have a higher RA variance than verage pitchers. Your assumed distribution for Stoppers has a standard deviation 3 times that of the average pitcher. Is this reflective of reality? Also, you've used an *ERA+ of 200. However, looking at the saves leaders from last season (2002) you have
*ERA+ Name
127 J Smoltz
192 E Gagne
147 M Williams
127 J Mesa
151 E Guardado
142 B Koch
172 R Nen
138 J Jimenez
226 T Percival
148 U Urbina
140 T Hoffman
105 K Escobar
166 K Sasaki
216 B Kim
170 B Wagner
172 A Benitez
, which averages to an *ERA+=159. Given that the *ERA+=159 includes partial innings of 2 and 1 outs, is your assumed *ERA+=200 reasonable for Stoppers pitching a full 3-out inning? It seems a bit high to me, which means the differences in your scenarios will be smaller than given in your analysis.
4) The "typical" current usage (case 2) results in the greatest leverage index (LI) of the cases presented, and likely near-maximal universal LI for a Stopper. However, the goal is not to maximize LI & Saves, the goal is to maximize wins, which is approximated by waa=(ip/9)*(LgERPG-.5*LgERPG)/(2*PF*LgERPG). Clearly case 4 maximizes wins but is quite unrealistic. Rob's case 5 attempts to bring the IP and appearances more in line with a typical number. However, as Rob points out, using your Stopper in the earlier innings will probably result in warming the Stopper up unnecessarily. Since there is likely a negative relation, not accounted for in the article, between times-warmed-up over the course of a season and effectiveness, cases 4 and 5 are probably not as attractive as they seem based on waa.
case = case number, given
IP = innings pitched, given
WAA = wins above average, given
waa/(9IP) = calculated qty, =waa/(ip/9)
waa/58G_est = calculated qty, = waa * (58/G_est)
G_est* = number of estimated games Stopper appeared in.
WAA_SP = wins above average for starting pitcher with *ERA+=200, = (ip/9)*(4.86-.5*4.86)/(2*1.0*4.86)
LI = leverage index = waa/WAA_SP
case ip waa G_est waa/(9IP) waa/58G_Est WAA_SP LI
1 042 2.17 42.0 0.47 3.00 1.17 1.86
2 058 3.39 58.0 0.53 3.39 1.61 2.10
3 088 4.09 58.7 0.42 4.04 2.44 1.67
4 142 6.33 85.2 0.40 4.31 3.94 1.60
5 092 5.35 57.5 0.52 5.40 2.56 2.09
*G_est - specifically, I used the following equations, solving for G:
case 1: IP = 1 * G
case 2: IP = 1 * G
case 3: IP = 1/2 * G + 2* 1/2 * G
case 4: IP = 1/3 * G + 2 * 2/3 * G
case 5: IP = 0.4 * 1 * G + 0.4 * 2 *G + 0.2 * G *2
Conclusion:
The current usage of Stoppers is close enough to optimal that experimentation with Stopper usage when you are a contender is unwarrented. More wins above average is *possible* if you think your Stopper can handle the extra innings and the extra unnecessary warmups. If you think your Stopper can handle cases 4 or 5 then you should go for it. However, there's little evidence that they can. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that Stoppers can handle the current usage, best exemplified by case 2. Beyond that type of usage is speculation. Furthermore, the differences (possibly reduced by #3 above) may not be as large as reported and would be easily rendered meaningless when compared to the psychology-physiology calculation error.
He started the inning each time, right? If not, how often did he come in with runners on base in each case?
case ip waa G_est waa/(9IP) waa/58G_Est WAA_SP LI
1 042 2.17 42.0 0.47 3.00 1.17 1.86
2 058 3.39 58.0 0.53 3.39 1.61 2.10
3 088 4.09 58.7 0.42 4.04 2.44 1.67
4 142 6.33 85.2 0.40 4.31 3.94 1.60
5 092 5.35 57.5 0.52 5.40 2.56 2.09
I have always believed that some relievers have the mental make up to be closers and some do not. A real short memory is probably the crucial attribute.
I did not keep track of the stopper's stats that Charlie asked about. W/L/Sv/BSv/Hd/G/GF. And, yes, my stoppers began each inning, so never entered in the middle of an inning.
When a game went into extra innings, I played it out with the simulation. However, since I played so many games, I imagine that this is essentially calling it a 50% chance of winning each game.
Half the games were home games and half the games were road games. So, yes, Kevin raises a good point about the relative lack of save opportunities for a stopper at home.
Tango also wondered about the runs allowed distribution I used for the stopper. He has a neat program on his website that generates a representative runs distribution for any average. I used his program, which led to slightly different runs at the tails, and re-ran the simulations. The results still stand, though the win pcts were different by about .001 or .002 from what I reported above.
The ERA+ of 200 is the extreme case, though several relievers have accomplished that feat over the years. Think of it merely as a milestone figure and not taken to be representative of all stoppers.
Kevin, your table still didn't format properly. If it wouldn't be too much trouble, could you summarize the results for us.
Dave raises another interesting point. Right now stoppers are paid to rack up saves and they use the save stat in negotiations. It will not be easy to convince the stopper to give up tons of money "for the good of the team".
Thanks again.
I think the hardest part to quantify is the effectiveness of a fireman's workload, with respect to warming up, and going 100+ innings in a season. As for reliever mindset, you just need to create more stats to appease them, like "fires put out" or some such. Every player (or even person) wants to be appreciated to the extent of their efforts, I'd guess.
1) The analysis openly assumes that "stoppers" give up one-half the league average of runs. Most teams, even the crappy ones, have a pitcher or two who has a superficially pretty ERA and who, on the surface, looks like a stopper. But what creates the "stopper" halo - the relief pitcher's actual abilities or the manager's usage patterns? The closer will rarely if ever appear in a blow-out, while the middle guys will have to stay in, get fragged, and take a hit to their ERAs. The modern closer also rarely stays in more than an inning, so he can throw all the gas he wants during that inning without worrying about what he's going to throw after. Where I'm going with this is that if you take a fake "stopper" and start using him like the other relievers, his effectiveness is liable to dwindle accordingly and he may start looking just like the other relievers.
2) To make a sweeping assertion without any evidence to back it up, I posit that there are very few true stoppers out there. If you have a guy like Mariano Rivera or Goose Gossage, your model holds: use the guy in high leverage situations whenever they arise, rather than just the 9th inning. But what if you don't? If you're a Red Sox fan, do you want Urbina pitching in the eighth inning of a tied game?
3) Perhaps a better line of inquiry would be how to handle the pitching staff if you don't have a true stopper, since this is the case with the vast majority of teams. Maybe the 9th-inning-only guy model works (well, sort of - if you like having Urbina-induced heart attacks). Or maybe the Theo Bullpen Experiment of 2003 will shed new light on this matter.
1) The analysis openly assumes that "stoppers" give up one-half the league average of runs. Most teams, even the crappy ones, have a pitcher or two who has a superficially pretty ERA and who, on the surface, looks like a stopper. But what creates the "stopper" halo - the relief pitcher's actual abilities or the manager's usage patterns? The closer will rarely if ever appear in a blow-out, while the middle guys will have to stay in, get fragged, and take a hit to their ERAs. The modern closer also rarely stays in more than an inning, so he can throw all the gas he wants during that inning without worrying about what he's going to throw after. Where I'm going with this is that if you take a fake "stopper" and start using him like the other relievers, his effectiveness is liable to dwindle accordingly and he may start looking just like the other relievers.
2) To make a sweeping assertion without any evidence to back it up, I posit that there are very few true stoppers out there. If you have a guy like Mariano Rivera or Goose Gossage, your model holds: use the guy in high leverage situations whenever they arise, rather than just the 9th inning. But what if you don't? If you're a Red Sox fan, do you want Urbina pitching in the eighth inning of a tied game?
3) Perhaps a better line of inquiry would be how to handle the pitching staff if you don't have a true stopper, since this is the case with the vast majority of teams. Maybe the 9th-inning-only guy model works (well, sort of - if you like having Urbina-induced heart attacks). Or maybe the Theo Bullpen Experiment of 2003 will shed new light on this matter.
The most questionable assumption, as others have pointed out, is first that the stopper will have an ERA+ of 200, and second that he will maintain 200 regardless of which of the usage scenarios occurs.
How do the numbers change if the stopper is only at 175, or if he is at 200 unless used more than X number of innings per week or some other threshold and then he is at 150? Would that substantially the relative value in the various scenarios, or merely reduce them all more or less equally?
Second, regarding the relationship between a relief pitcher's IP and ERA, again experienced managers probably have a good idea. Clearly the ERA is going to eventually soar with more workload. Managers realize this since they don't use their best relievers every day and they limit his innings per appearance too. Of course, this is all related to the pitcher-abuse issue, but I don't know if PAP studies or articles have been applied to relievers.
Thanks again.
That's why I think it will be a GM run team (Oakland/Boston/Toronto) that institutes a change in bullpen Conventional Wisdom.
My thought on the optimal bullpen strategy is to use Rob's Case 4 but construct your roster so that you have 2 pretty good, cheap "stoppers" and have them split the 142 innings or so by alternating days. Then have 2 reliever and 2 5th starter/long relievers pitch the remaining relief innings giving only 10 pitchers.
An underlooked aspect of bullpen management is that the roster spots that the variety of relief specialists occupy are highly valuable. A good pinch hitter is worth a few games a year minimum.
Results are very similar to case 2 above where stopper pitched only the ninth inning when his team is up by 1, 2, or 3 runs, or if game is tied.
In case 6 stopper pitches 62.5 innings per 162-games, and team win pct is .521.
I agree with David (and others) point that the leverage insights are undoubtedly known to major league managers. But they have evolved the role of the stopper to its present form, largely a ninth-inning save situation role exclusively. David concludes from these two observations that the hidden costs of significantly changing the closer's role must be large.
Another explanation is that managers are not as bright as they should be, or that managers believe that the hidden costs are large (but they aren't), or that managers do not fully appreciate the added benefit of shifting the closer's innings around due to leverage.
As I said, when I started thinking about these issues, I was firmly in David's camp. But now I am not so sure.
In addition, didn't Casey Stengel often use his best pinch hitters and relief ace much earlier in the game than other managers? I distinctly remember stories about Phil Rizutto being pinch hit for late in his career in the early innings (which Rizutto hated with a passion). I may be remembering how he used Joe Page in 1949 during Page's best year. However, Page never was the same thereafter and some have blamed his "over-use" during 1949 as the cause.
I wanted to note that this statement is untrue. Managers often use their designated closer in the last inning of a blowout game (either way) in order to keep the closer sharp, especially if he hasn't faced a save situation in the last couple of games. Most teams don't have 65 save situations a year, and reserving the closer exclusively for those situations on some teams might mean that the closer goes a week or more without pitching.
The standard usage pattern seems to be that the closer come in to start the last inning (a) in a save situation, (b) whenever the team has a late lead of any size and the closer hasn't pitched in a few days, or (c) in a blowout loss when the closer hasn't pitched in a few days. The closer will also frequently pitch the 10th inning of an extra-inning tie game when his team is at home since the home team will no longer have a save situation for him.
-- MWE
Although the closer is used in non-save situations, he is rarely used in situations that are likely to be disadvantageous to his personal stats: he is not overused (unless it's the 16th inning), he gets to pitch in blowouts to stay sharp, etc. Other relievers are used willy-nilly including having to eat up innings when they're getting shelled.
Despite the closer's advantages, most "elite" closers only have an ERA+ of 160.
I'm not sure it's worth manipulating your bullpen usage to maximize the value or most "stoppers."
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main