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Wednesday, September 19, 2007

Rays: Boras on Pena

“I think they got more than a $10-million benefit this year by getting a player who had probably a $15-million season for about $1.2-million,”

“And I’m sure their fans are waiting to see that, too, knowing also that Tampa Bay is one of the most successful economic franchises in the sense that their payroll is so low (about $25-million) and they’re generating probably $140-million worth of gross revenues. When you count revenue sharing, the national TV package and licensing you’re almost talking about $80-million before they even sell a ticket.”

Full article on my favorite Rays Blog: DRays Bay

Scott Boras shares his opinion on what Carlos Pena’s breakthrough season should be worth to the Rays.  To me it looks like Pena has been roughly a $15mm player this year, of course what is really important is what will he be worth next year?  Since he isn’t a free agent, market rates need not apply.  One way I do a quick projection on a player using EQA is to find a weighted average:

So the real question is what is a .298 EQA 1b worth in arbitration with 4+ years of service time?  Well in coming into the season ‘07 Teixeira was in the same boat, about a 300 eqa projection, and 4+ years of service time, with Scott Boras his agent.  Teix was paid about $9m this year, though he signed the deal before the ‘06 season, so you have to figure two years of salary inflation which at 10% a year gets you to about $11mm.  So Boras seems pretty reasonable in his estimates.

Now before anyone quibbles with Scott’s estimate of $140mm in gross revenues for the Devil Rays, let me say it jives with Forbes preseason estimate. 

I have my keys back so look for more in this space.

Mister High Standards Posted: September 19, 2007 at 11:17 AM | 28 comment(s)
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   1. villainx Posted: September 19, 2007 at 01:47 PM (#2532018)
Teix had good years prior, so arb wise, Pena is at a disadvantage, right? I wonder if the Rays will opt for a multi year contract instead. Welcome back MHS.
   2. Alex Gordon's #1 Fan Posted: September 19, 2007 at 01:53 PM (#2532026)
Pena is still not a FA? Seems like he's been around forever. He's surely going to regress to the mean next year, which will likely cost him quite a bit of money.
   3. AROM Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:00 PM (#2532041)
How many years do the Rays have him for before he can be a free agent? Looks like he's got 3 full years (03,04,07), two partial years (02,05) and a cup of coffee in 2006. Probably adds up to him having 2 more years of arbitration.
   4. AROM Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:05 PM (#2532051)
Cot's has him at 3.13 years of service coming into 2007. Seems a little off at first glance but since time in September callups is not counted, its probably right. Devil Rays get 2 years to see if this is a fluke before they have to decide to pay him or not.
   5. Mister High Standards Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:13 PM (#2532063)
Rally - I have him at a little more than 4 years right now, which is consistant with Teix comming into 07.

Teix had good years prior, so arb wise, Pena is at a disadvantage, right?


I guess you would more conviction on Teix's projection comming into 07 than Pena's going into 08, the error bars might be smaller, but the average projection should be pretty close, IMHO. Then again arbitration awards aren't built off projections, but the past.
   6. JPWF13 Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:13 PM (#2532064)
I have my keys back so look for more in this space.


never knew you lost them
   7. Kyle S Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:29 PM (#2532088)
never knew you lost them
The powers-that-be actually took them away (along with Matt's kids, of course) after a messy drinking-and-posting accident.
   8. Mister High Standards Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:35 PM (#2532097)
All my posts involve drinking. That one just involved more of it than usual.
   9. Greg Pope Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:46 PM (#2532113)
time in September callups is not counted

What's the definition of "time in September callups"? I remember that September callups don't affect status for arbitration and free agency, but some people get credit for September since players can have up to 170 (or 180, I forget) days in a year. Who gets credit for September and who doesn't?
   10. Alex Gordon's #1 Fan Posted: September 19, 2007 at 02:50 PM (#2532117)
Why does September callup time not count as service time? How is that even determined?
   11. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: September 19, 2007 at 09:09 PM (#2532743)
Excellent question, Greg.
Keith, if you're around... any insight you'd like to share?
   12. Rich Posted: September 20, 2007 at 01:50 AM (#2533353)
The Rays took a risk on a player even though it wasn't foreseeable that Pena would be nearly as productive as he has been. They deserve the benefit, in full.
   13. Dan Szymborski Posted: September 20, 2007 at 03:03 AM (#2533365)
Emphasis mine.


(1) One full day of Major League service will be credited for
each day of the championship season a Player is on a Major League
Club’s Active List. A total of 172 days of Major League credited
service will constitute one full year of credited service. A Player
may not be credited with more than one year of credited service, 172
days, in one championship season. Major League service will be
computed commencing with the date of the first regularly scheduled
championship season game, through and including the date of the
last regularly scheduled championship season game.
This rule shall
apply uniformly to all Players and all Clubs notwithstanding differences
in a particular Club’s schedule.
   14. Colin Posted: September 20, 2007 at 11:20 AM (#2533545)
Coming next, Boras admits that Andruw Jones lost the Braves money by giving them a $3m season for $13m.
   15. zonk Posted: September 20, 2007 at 01:06 PM (#2533699)
Wow, when I read this, my first thought was to find something snarky and funny to say about Boras's value estimation....

But - that just goes to show how much 1)being an NL-only roto leaguer and NL fan, and 2)the obscurity of playing for the D-Rays, means.

I'm not smart enough to say Pena's season is a 15 mil season, but it's definitely in the ballpark.

That's gotta be the quietest 157 OPS+ season I can remember in quite some time. Just using the quick and dirty OPS+ yardstick, he's ahead of Howard, Pujols, and Fielder - was he the best AL 1B this season?

Of course, Pena's already been paid for this season, so as others have said -- the question isn't what he was worth this year, but what he's worth next year and thereafter.
   16. AROM Posted: September 20, 2007 at 01:57 PM (#2533767)
When a player has a year like this its hard to tell if its a fluke or a real change in ability. If MGL comes across this thread he'll remind us that in unless we have a special reason to explain a change, a player's future projection will still be his Marcel-type weighted projection.

And he's right, with no other information, that is our best guess. But sometimes there is a change in ability that is real (Luis Gonzalez 1st year in Arizona), sometimes it is mostly a fluke (Adrian Beltre).

Sometimes people underestimate how much simple random fluctuation can account for. We don't know if Pena is a real 280/390/580 hitter, a 260/360/520 guy getting a little lucky, or the same ol' 235/320/450 guy getting extremely lucky.

I have a pretty good comparison to Pena in my APBA league. In this case, I know for a fact that his ability level is 270/305/449. As a RHB, he starts the year in a platoon, but good play and injuries to others earns him everyday playing time. With a little over 400 at bats now, he never stopped hitting and is at 320/355/581. In this case, we know his improvement is 100% random. With Pena, we don't, but it is possible that its just a big ol fluke.
   17. The Jerry Royster Experience Posted: September 20, 2007 at 02:03 PM (#2533777)
I have a pretty good comparison to Pena in my APBA league. In this case, I know for a fact that his ability level is 270/305/449. As a RHB, he starts the year in a platoon, but good play and injuries to others earns him everyday playing time. With a little over 400 at bats now, he never stopped hitting and is at 320/355/581.

I love fluke seasons like that when I play DMB. I'm about 2/3 through a 2006 season where Ricky Ledee has an OPS around .850 and Shawn Estes's ERA is under 3.
   18. Half Berkman, Half Berkmazing (SuperBaes) Posted: September 20, 2007 at 02:36 PM (#2533822)
Even AL East fans (Boston and New York fans, if there are any out there) hardly knew the season that Pena was having. The Rays are 11-19 versus the two big boys. Pena has hit around .280ish and 10 of his 40 homers against these clubs. He's like the early Seattle version of Raul Ibanez: he quietly accumulates numbers for a horrible club that no one recognizes until the end of the year. So, in short, Zonk, don't worry that you're not familiar with him; Rays fans don't know him that well.
   19. Colin Posted: September 20, 2007 at 02:44 PM (#2533833)
Looks like instead of the 2006 versions you got Estes' 1997, when he had a sub-3 ERA in mid July and again after one start in August of a full season, and Ledee's 2003, when he had an 850 OPS as late as early September. Nice luck!
   20. Alex Gordon's #1 Fan Posted: September 20, 2007 at 02:47 PM (#2533839)
I love fluke seasons like that when I play DMB. I'm about 2/3 through a 2006 season where Ricky Ledee has an OPS around .850 and Shawn Estes's ERA is under 3.

Ha. Some anomalies for my league this year:

Billy Traber has 14 wins and an ERA around 4.00
Travis Lee hit 25 HR and 100 RBI
Tony Batista hit 30 HR
And Carlos Pena amazingly has 30 home runs
   21. Cowboy Popup Posted: September 20, 2007 at 02:53 PM (#2533850)
Even AL East fans (Boston and New York fans, if there are any out there) hardly knew the season that Pena was having.

Yankee fans knew. How could we not, with Minky and Cairo and Phillips manning first for most of the season while the guy the Yanks cut last year has been one of the best hitters in the league.
   22. Jim Wisinski Posted: September 20, 2007 at 02:55 PM (#2533854)
Rays fans don't know him that well.


We know him quite well. Kinda hard to not notice the guy putting up the best offensive season in franchise history.
   23. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: September 20, 2007 at 03:19 PM (#2533899)
We don't know if Pena is a real 280/390/580 hitter, a 260/360/520 guy getting a little lucky, or the same ol' 235/320/450 guy getting extremely lucky.

Granted, he may not have been (and probably wasn't) a .235/.320/.450 guy in the first place. :)
   24. Daryn Posted: September 21, 2007 at 08:35 PM (#2536523)
We know him quite well. Kinda hard to not notice the guy putting up the best offensive season in franchise history.

So does any AL or mixed roto player. He and Carmona will top the AL "biggest profit" lists this year.
   25. Miko Posted: September 22, 2007 at 12:13 AM (#2537250)
Sox fans know him, too. He's a local (college ball at Northeastern).
   26. Greg Pope Posted: September 22, 2007 at 12:36 AM (#2537301)
Thanks for the excerpt, Dan. Did that rule change at some point in the last 20 or so years? I seem to recall that when rosters expand in September that teams call up their young players to get a taste of the big leagues but it didn't start start their service time clocks. I think the White Sox did that with Alex Fernandez and Frank Thomas in the same year.

(checks B-Ref)OK, Fernandez and Thomas both debuted on August 2, 1990, so I'm remembering incorrectly there.
   27. Lake Placido Polanco (Crispix Attacks) Posted: September 22, 2007 at 12:50 AM (#2537343)
Two AL hitters have more than 31 home runs this year. Alex Rodriguez has 52, and Carlos Pena has 40. This is one of the biggest surprise seasons by a non-prospect in baseball history.
   28. The Ghost of Archi Cianfrocco Posted: September 27, 2007 at 12:14 PM (#2545449)
Sox fans know him, too. He's a local (college ball at Northeastern).

... and some of us wanted the Sox to find a way to keep him on the roster but it just wasn't to be.

I always thought he was better than he showed the last few years but I can't see him turning in back to back .600+ SLG seasons. That said, the DRays do have the benefit of just paying him for the one year and still coming out OK. If he's for real try to turn him into a living, breathing pitcher with a track record of success.
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