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Boys of Summer Reading — Wednesday, May 25, 2005Baseball Prospectus 2005In general terms, Baseball Prospectuses, published annually, are books of comments about major and minor league ballplayers that to use statistical analysis as the foundation for the comments. In the 2005 edition, player comments occupy about 420 of the book’s 570 or so pages. Another 80 or so pages comprise small essays on the major league teams; the player comments for a team’s players follow that team’s essay. The remaining 70 or so pages contain a very skimpy introduction, a few small statistical essays, a list of Top Prospects (according to the Prospectus writers’ collective), and an index of players with the page number containing each player’s comment. There is no general index, nor a glossary of terms. Unfortunately, Prospectus has a fatal flaw, which it has had since its inception in the 1990s and which it has not corrected to this day. The flaw really is fatal; it renders Prospectus all but useless to serious baseball analysts. Worse, the flaw all but ensures that whatever analysis Prospectus does will be out of date; the book will never be on the cutting edge as long as it has this flaw. So, what is this fatal flaw? Baseball Prospectus does not publish its methods, nor the standards that its analysts use to evaluate them. As a consequence, the reader cannot know what the statistical material in Prospectus actually means, nor how to compare it to anyone else’s results. The flaw renders Prospectus absolutely useless to the casual baseball fan. I tried the book out on a test audience of a couple of such, and they found it to be incomprehensible. Prospectus does not publish actual raw baseball stats for the players; instead, it uses stats that have been massaged by the writer/analysts. It does not explain what methods the analysts use, and the methods are not obvious. In the comments and essays themselves, the writers continually refer to other unexplained stat massaging methods and use a lot of insider terminology for which there is no glossary. The house writing style - individual writers for the player and team comments are not credited - relies heavily on cheap sarcasm, insider terminology, and very obscure analogies from outside of baseball. (The Elementals comic book?) You fantasy fans won’t find anything here, either. Prospectus claims to be analyzing real baseball, not any of the fantasy simulations, so you don’t get any numbers that are directly useful, like you do in John Benson’s books. There are projections for players for the 2005 season, but they are unreliable, especially in estimating playing time for minor leaguers about to make the big leagues. Nick Swisher, the A’s top pick in the Moneyball draft, is predicted to have 327 at-bats in 2005, as a center fielder. Last I heard, the A’s plan to start Swisher in right field, in which case, 327 AB is too low. On the other hand, they assign 176 AB to Jeremy Brown, presumably as the A’s backup catcher for Jason Kendall. Kendall has never left that many AB for his backup. On top of that, Brown, who was hurt last year, will very very likely be the A’s starting catcher in AAA ball, to get experience. He has no chance of getting 176 AB as a late-season callup behind Kendall. As for the effect of unrevealed methods and standards, here’s what I’m talking about, using the old Bill James Abstracts for comparison. Bill started out with a method for determining how many batting runs a batter had contributed to the team effort, by massaging the batter’s component stats, such as singles, homers, strikeouts, etc. The earliest, simplest version of this method amounted to On Base Percentage times Slugging Percentage times At Bats; Bill called this “Runs Created.” I know what the formula is - OBP x SLG x AB - because Bill published it in his books (Bill broke it down into smaller components, but his RC is algebraically equivalent to my version). Bill also told his readers what standard he used to decide that this was the best Runs Created method he had devised. He would take an entire team’s component stats for a season, use the formula to estimate the team’s runs scored for the year, and then compare his formula’s results to the number of runs that the team actually did score. He did this for a lot of team seasons and then computed the standard deviation, which is the normal statistical measure for how close a formula gets to the actual numbers. The smaller this standard deviation was, the better the Runs Created formula. That is, the standard was “smallest standard deviation of estimated to actual team season runs scored.” This, too, he printed in his books. The result of this was that a reader could evaluate Bill’s work for himself. If you wanted to try to dream up a better RC formula than Bill’s, you knew what Bill’s formula was, and you knew what standard he used to determine accuracy. If your formula had a smaller standard deviation than Bill’s, you had a better formula. And most important of all, if you sent Bill a letter with your formula, and he checked your math and your standard deviation was indeed smaller, he’d print YOUR formula in HIS book, and use it! It was this access to Bill’s methods, standards, and forum that actually produced the revolution in baseball analysis now commonly associated with the book Moneyball. That’s because the access empowered Bill’s entire readership, turning them into a real community of scholars. With Bill, you were on firm ground, and never thought that his work was opaque or that yours was futile or redundant. You understood Bill’s work, you could avoid re-inventing his wheels, and you had standards to evaluate your efforts. Many people participated, and the field improved its results by leaps and bounds. Contrast this to Baseball Prospectus 2005. The book has a morass of methods, none of which are presented in full formula fashion, much less with standards for judging accuracy. There is something called VORP, which supposedly evaluates both batting and pitching (though, oddly, not defense). It claims to adjust for everything from the strengths of individual minor leagues to, for all I know, the phases of the moon. But how? There’s no formula. How accurately? There’s no standard. So, how can you decide whether you think VORP is worth using? You can’t. How can you determine whether you have a more accurate method? You can’t. How can you write a letter demonstrating that you have a more accurate method that Prospectus can use next year? You can’t. You can’t even do simple things like decide if you agree with Prospectus on what the replacement rate is for injured major league players. VORP is based on the concept of replacement rate (it stands for Value Over Replacement Player), but Prospectus never tells you what they think the replacement rate might be. And all that means that VORP is essentially useless to you as a reader. So is PECOTA, the Prospectus method for projecting players into the future. The formula(s) aren’t there, nor are the standards. The back cover of the book claims that PECOTA is “exclusive (and deadly accurate),” but only one of those claims - “exclusive” - is verifiable. PECOTA is certainly exclusive; no one outside of the Prospectus crowd knows how to work it. But accurate? By what standard? Who knows? But worse, the exclusivity means that no one except the Prospectus guys can even try to improve on either VORP or PECOTA, nor any other exclusive Prospectus methods. There’s no robust community of scholarly readers helping out. So what happens? Prospectus’ methods fall further and further behind the openly published methods. Further and further behind the cutting edge. Out of date, in addition to useless. The nadir is the Top Prospects section. Each player gets a little essay and a few stat lines. But the stat lines make no sense. For example, Dallas McPherson, prospect #4, gets, among others, stats labeled “AVG” - presumably batting average - for the years 2003 and 2004. These are .253 and .256, respectively. Well, the lowest batting average that McPherson accumulated in 2003 and 2004, at any stop at any level, was .308. Obviously, the Prospectus AVG stats are not McPherson’s raw batting averages. What are they? Who knows? Major League Equivalencies of some kind? Maybe, but what kind? What’s the formula? There is no explanation of the stat lines anywhere in the book. McPherson, like the other prospects, also gets a line labeled “5-Year WARP Trend,” which lists five numbers. Again, what does that mean? Who knows? Again, there’s no explanation. As a veteran sabermetrician, I might guess that WARP stands for Wins Above Replacement Player, but does that help? No. There’s no definition in the book of what Prospectus believes a replacement player to be worth, much less how Prospectus actually calculates player Wins. Without a baseline, a list of wins becomes just another set of unverifiable numbers. Worse, there’s no indication of which five years the trend covers. 2003 through 2007? 2005 through 2009? Who knows? Prospectus doesn’t tell us. And the casual fan has no chance of guessing what WARP stands for, even if my guess is correct. I should mention one more feature of Baseball Prospectus 2005: the constant mention of the Prospectus web site. Frequently, the web site is cited as the place to go for further information on the methods in the book. I did not check the web site out; I was assigned to review a book. It apparently is at least partially a for-pay site, as the book mentions “profits” from it, but there is also mention of free stuff. I have no idea if methods and standards are actually fully presented on the web site, or if they are on the free or pay portion. I will, however, say this: If you have to go to the web site to make use of the book, then the book is, essentially, an advertisement for the web site. I don’t know about you, but I am not accustomed to paying for advertisements. I expect advertising to pay for things like TV programming, not the other way around. The book costs $17.95 this year. The web site’s url is printed on the back cover. You can copy it down for free. Why buy the useless advertisement? In actual fact, you cannot really call Baseball Prospectus 2005 an “analysis” book at all, because readers cannot approach it as analysis. All you can do is take the Prospectus authors’ word for their results. You have to take them on faith. You have to take them as - religion. Word from on high that you are not allowed to verify. The peer group of books for Baseball Prospectus 2005 is not Bill James’ Abstracts, nor his more recent Win Shares, which spends page upon page carefully detailing its methods and standards. Nor is the peer group any of the other fine baseball analysis publications that have appeared over the years. No, the peer group for Prospectus comprises works like the Bible, the Koran, and the Vedas. Books whose pronouncements you have to take on faith. Books that, however many truly wonderful characteristics they may have, are useless for analyzing baseball. |
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You should visit the Baseball Prospectus website and and then peruse their glossary. You might change some of your opinions of the book after you've done that. I know this isn't the easiest way to work the book, but it cuts down on the boring to read things that go along with their formulas.
lets see, a few things from prospectus that have been useful, the catchers defensive article a few years back which is the only legitimate attempt I have seen to fairly evaluate the value of steals or steal attempts.
and the player articles is some of the best things I read, I love the prospectus series of books for the simple fact that they do give you a paragraph(not a "pass") on each player they rate.
I hate them, for much of the reason that I hate a lot of statistical guys is that they have an insane fascination that the players are always right, and the owners are always wrong. (and the fact that TLR/Duncan are evil and cox/mazzone are god...guess we need a main stream writer to call cox a genius before he gets scrutnized to the same level)
Uh, haven't they published the raw numbers for a couple years now?
Also, a minor correction; the following statement is false:
Prospectus does not publish actual raw baseball stats for the players; instead, it uses stats that have been massaged by the writer/analysts.
It publishes a combination of the two, and actually publishes more raw stats than massaged ones. In BP 2005, for hitters, there are 12 raw statistical categories for each player and six "massaged" ones. For pitchers, there are 8 categories of raw stats and 8 "massaged."
Whenever I read an article that's this venomous regarding a relatively mundane subject, I start to wonder if there are hidden axes to grind. The fact that Primer and Prospectus have feuded in the past doesn't help, either.
I don't think that it is too much to ask a reader to visit a website for more detail about the concepts in an annual publication. That would be a fair standard for a one-time publication, but an annual should be subject to different rules, as they are devising new concepts and stats every year. I don't need them to rehash everything they have done in each edition.
I agree with tBoS that referring to a website for background info is OK, especially when they aren't going to tell you the specifics anyway.
BP isn't what they once were, but I think the review had a little too much heat.
I agree with this, to an extent, but that's how the book always was to me: something that had to be considered in tandem with the website content. I evaluate it on that basis.
I enjoyed BPro 2005 more than the books the previous few years; in fact, I had nearly passed on purchasing this year's edition. I'm glad I did.
The big problem BPro has developed, IMO, is that their analysis has grown more and more insular, and often seems out of touch with the sabermetric community at large. I think the fact that they haven't produced their own PBP defensive metric, for instance, or made more than passing reference to UZR, is a large disappointment. And, even using their online glossary, much of WARP (the timeline adjustment) and VORP remains in the shadows.
If BPro's doing their job (which I'll admit I have doubts about), they're keeping their stuff that works better and constantly tweaking the open source stuff that's better.
In agreement with Brock, PECOTA has not been well explained (unless they've done something since the original couple articles). I'm pretty sure I know what they're doing ... and it's probably OK but not perfect ... and I'd be shocked if it's "deadly accurate."
Actually one of the nice things about PECOTA is that it's much more upfront about its lack of accuracy -- it gives you something close to a confidence interval; it openly admits (while claiming it as a feature) that there's a 20% chance this guy tanks even though they project him to be pretty good; etc. I'm not sure it's doing a good job on those projections, but at least they're trying.
And haven't there been a couple articles that looked at the MSE of PECOTA projections, etc? And hasn't Tango done some comparisons to other methods?
I stopped buying Prospectus a couple years ago. As far as I'm concerned, its only use is the numbers. There were sometimes good essays, but these guys have no more special insight into Dallas McPherson than what you can get for free here at BTF (gotta love open source).
In particular, the suggestion that the methodology for VORP is not publicly available is completely wrong. The derivation of VORP is described IN DETAIL here and here. Couple that with Keith's extended essay in the 2002 annual, which explains exactly how the replacement level bar is established, and it would be possible to reverse engineer VORP with relatively little effort and almost 100% accuracy, if one were so inclined. Equivalent Average, our defensive metrics, Pitcher Abuse Points, SNWL ... all of these things have been explained in great detail at various points in time.
It is true that PECOTA isn't completely transparent, although I've described virtually all of the essential aspects of its methodology in various columns, chats, and book essays over the past couple of years. But that's obscuring the point. We ARE running Baseball Prospectus as a for-profit enterprise. If that's the accusation here, it isn't breaking any news. We aren't abashed about trying to protect our intellectual property in certain places, particularly given that federal patent law doesn't apply neatly to something like PECOTA.
By the way, one of the things we are very conscientious about, given that our livelihoods depend entirely on the trust of our customers, is to make sure that everything that we publish meets a standard of objectivity and accuracy. If something like this review appeared even for a nanosecond at Baseball Prospectus, it would be remedied with an apology, and the person responsible for it would be fired.
What I would like to see is a greater sense of accountability to temper the sometime arrogance of the analyses. From year to year, it would be interesting to acknowledge, re-visit and consider what went wrong with the previous years' analyses.
I read the annual BP for the team overviews first and foremost. The reviewer has nothing critical to say here other than that they're not credited. Well it just so happens to be the smartest and well-informed stuff I can find on the state of each organization.
>>> All you can do is take the Prospectus authors’ word for their results
I've seen historical tests of PECOTA somewhere but I would like a more accessible summary of hits/misses from past editions. BP is not shy about touting their early calls on Pujols, Santana etc. I'd like to see a feature on "one's we missed."
I will, however, say this: If you have to go to the web site to make use of the book, then the book is, essentially, an advertisement for the web site. I don’t know about you, but I am not accustomed to paying for advertisements. I expect advertising to pay for things like TV programming, not the other way around. The book costs $17.95 this year. The web site’s url is printed on the back cover. You can copy it down for free. Why buy the useless advertisement?
The book comntains a lot of informative and entertaining material that is not on the website. If you want to take issue with the team and player comments then that is fine but it is silly to ignore the stuff that is half or more of the reson that people buy the book.
You fantasy fans won’t find anything here, either. Prospectus claims to be analyzing real baseball, not any of the fantasy simulations, so you don’t get any numbers that are directly useful, like you do in John Benson’s books.
On a specific, I've used PECOTA numbers in my fantasy planning for a couple of years and found them helpful. Like anything, you don't want to put too much weight on them alone - for example, you need to remember that ray durham will have nagging injuries no matter what the projection - but show me anyone or thing that is foolproof.
There are projections for players for the 2005 season, but they are unreliable, especially in estimating playing time for minor leaguers about to make the big leagues. Nick Swisher, the A’s top pick in the Moneyball draft, is predicted to have 327 at-bats in 2005, as a center fielder. Last I heard, the A’s plan to start Swisher in right field, in which case, 327 AB is too low.
The playing time projections for prospects are pretty silly and BP would do well to look at them. Better to say what they think the player would do if thrown in the majors full time rather than produce a spuriously accurate number. (The playing time projections for established players serve more as a proxy for injury risk, which is somewhat more useful)
No, the peer group for Prospectus comprises works like the Bible, the Koran, and the Vedas. Books whose pronouncements you have to take on faith. Books that, however many truly wonderful characteristics they may have, are useless for analyzing baseball.
Hold on. Can't I look back at the end of the year and work out how accurate I think the projections were? They are putting their neck on the line with specific predictions about forthcoming events. Looks pretty accountable to me. if the results are crap, don't buy it next year.
All it stated was that the writer doesn't like the fact that the book requires you to be familiar with the BP website. He is correct, to a casual fan or one with no knowledge of Baseball Prospectus the book isn't that useful. It's not like they're hiding that fact, it's not a book that just anyone can pick up and understand completely. That deserves a mention in the beginning, maybe one or two sentences.
This isn't even a book review, it's just a long-winded slam at Prospectus by someone that doesn't know anything about them. It's great that BTF is Open Source but that doesn't mean it needs to post every piece of trash that someone writes for it.
Is Prospectus close to perfect? Not at all. They do make too many sarcastic or insulting comments, sometimes barely even talking about the player. They sometimes put too much faith in their stats being accurate, particularly their defensive ones which are of limited accuracy. They do excellent work though and for the most part have intelligent, well written analysis. They generally aren't afraid to look back at stuff from the past and admit they were wrong.
The writer mentioned it being a pay site, but all the stuff he's complaining about (which is the stats and definitions) is available for free, only a few stat reports are subscription only.
......
The flaw renders Prospectus absolutely useless to the casual baseball fan.
Yet it keeps selling well year after year.
I did not check the web site out; I was assigned to review a book. It apparently is at least partially a for-pay site
Here's one part I found perplexing. It's like the author of the book review was (at best) only dimly aware of prospectus's website. If that's the case why was he assigned to review the book?
I remember in the old Abstracts were James would have a glossary or index or whatever it was exactly called in the back where he'd give you the math behind the power/speed index, or similarity scores, or the favorite toy or whatever. If Bill James started publishing his abstracts nowadays, would he put that info in a glossary or just put it on a website. I gotta figure most people didn't read those parts and it could save a little on publishing costs. Plus it would be available year after year.
But in the speritif of openness, it's worth noting that this reviewer, Brock Hanke, was a co-author of a competing baseball annual, the Big Bad Baseball Annual, that never met with the commercial success of BPro. So it's entirely possible that that plays into the author's response. Perhaps not, but it's worth keeping mind as context.
Ugh, I hated to get all sabermetric about that.
***
Take for example the issue on the "advertising". The reviewer could have gone to the trouble of going to the website, and hitting the glossary, and check out what's there. Then, in his review, he could say "if you don't mind logging in to see some of the equations described, there's alot of information to grasp; but if you prefer to have eveyrthing at your fingertips, bound in one volume, you might be put off; if you have to go to previous editions to get the full explanation, you might be really annoyed". So, that leaves each reader to come up with his own conclusion.
***
I for one only read the sabermetric-type articles in Prospectus. So, I've been pretty disappointed since... I think it's the 2002 one... the one with the Blue Jay (Phelps?). That edition was very good, sabermetrically. Ever since, not so much.
But, is that bad? Again, no. You could review the book and say exactly the sabermetric articles, and the Bill James hardcore guys would be disappointed, but those who just enjoy a couple of good articles would be very pleased. Again, everyone gets their own conclusion, based on the review.
***
I do think Keith did an excellent job in his Win Expectancy framework. And, there is alot of information that that would be useful to a researcher, and also verifiable.
Personally, I was annoyed of a metric called "Leverage", but, that's something that would only bother me. But, personally again, Keith was kind enough to use my run distribution program, even though his almost exactly as good as mine.
***
I found BP 2005 to really be a mixed bag. The mix was not for me. But, at 40,000 or 50,000 units (or whatever it is), that's a very powerful message that's being bought by people around the country.
A "fair and balanced" review would have described enough "hits" that could explain the kinds of people that actually buy BP.
***
If the reviewer could not do this kind of job, then TWO reviewers, each taking one side, would have been appropriate.
I liked Nicole Kidman's looks.
I loathed everything else.
Next up I expect a review of Microsoft Office claiming that the program is terrible because the reviewer can't get a look at the source code.
But this review is lazy, petty, and irresponsible. I've grown tired of the Prospectus team's product in the past couple of years, but I commend Nate Silver for his response in this thread. He could have gone ape-**** but to his credit did not.
I don't think this was a fair review at all. It seems pretty obvious to me that the author had an axe to grind, and I'm pretty sure that I know why (wasn't Hanke a contributor to BBBA? The venom towards BP from BBBA completely turned me off of BBBA. The rancor got in the way of the analysis, to the point that slamming BP became the main focus of BBBA. This essay would have fit right in with the last couple of BBBA; there's a reason the BBBA doesn't exist anymore).
I'll also agree with some of the points that have been raised above - BP DOES publish real stats, and much of the "missing" information is available on the web site. I'll add that while each individual book might not explain in detail the exact methodology used, the entire collection of BP books as a whole does actually explain a lot of the methodology (and the website adds even more).
that doesn't mean that BP is above criticism - I've got some problems with the development of BP over the last few years myself. My primary criticism is that they change their "baseline" for their adjusted stats every year, which makes it difficult/impossible to analyze their systems over a number of years. My second criticism is that as the years have passed, they've moved away from what BP was originally intended to be - sabrmetric analysis of baseball with a little bit of commentary thrown in. The sabrmetric side of BP is fading; the "commentary" side is ascendant. Don't get me wrong, there are still a couple of pretty good analysts at BP (Davenport, Silver; I've really enjoyed Jazayerli's recent series on the draft as well - he's probably the best mix of commentary and analysis they have right now). But they're in the distinct minority, compared to the "commentary" guys. And many of the commentary guys don't really seem to understand the analysis side of things, and serve merely as attack dogs/cheerleaders of the BP way. I never saw one of the "analysis" guys defend BP's defensive numbers with much strength - they were aware that the system had some major flaws, but it was the best they were capable of doing at the time. Some of the "commentary" guys, though, championed BP's defensive numbers as the best thing since sliced bread, and crapped all over any other defensive evaluations.
Anyway, BP isn't perfect, but it's far better than the review states. I am disappointed with the direction BP is heading in (less real analysis, and more towards the realms of the type of "mediocy" that drove them to start BP in the first place), but it's still worth checking out.
It's one thing if a guy writes a slanted review and then submits it for posting at BTF. I think there should be some sort of quality control for the articles posted to the main page, but that's just my opinion. I think it's a different matter, however, if Hanke was actually assigned by BTF to write this review. It should have been obvious that he simply has an axe to grind, and a quick skim of the article before posting it would have confirmed this.
I've been disapointed with the team essays and the player comments for some time, but this is the first time that I was disapointed by the fungoes.
At a book signing I asked Joe Sheehan to account for the complete miss on the Blue Jays article in the previous years version. He more or less washed his hands of it, and said I wrote this years blue jays article not last years. Lets talk about that.
I'm also bored of the fact that almost every team essay only evaluates the job of the GM, rather than talking about the team and what it did. I would say in years past 22 of 30 team essays would be intresting, now 22 of 30 say more or less the same things. I like the format they took with the Giants essay a couple of years ago where they explained that the Giants were very good at getting above expected performance from veterans.
I also don't like that every player comment is more or less the same length, and as another poster mentioned more often than not is a snidey joke rather than some useful information.
Can you explain and justify the essay written by Derek Zumsteg, in which his venomous name-calling and other cheap shots about Pat Gillick, got by the editors? This essay is mere speculation and isn't even Derek's forte, which is player forecasting.
I'm really surprised that the cheap shots, at a minimum, were not deleted.
And, the sarcasm was getting too much this year. It almost seemed spiteful toward certain players, management, and other writers. We get the idea that Russ Ortiz is a bad signing, we don't need it mentioned in every chapter. Sarcasm and humor are fine, but it has to have a point and relate to the player being discussed.
Other than that, I thought it was a good book. it gave me what I wanted and expected, so I'm not disappointed.
I don't understand the venom toward Gillick when he was primarily responsible for building the best team Seattle has ever seen.
Dustan Mohr - Mohr had a breakout year, getting on base 40% of the time and hitting some monster home runs. Does his player comment talk about his likelihood to repeat, or whether it was a good idea for Sabean to non-tender him?
No, the player comment slags Michael Tucker, barely mentioning Mohr. Never mind that Tucker had his own entry in the chapter for them to do that.
I love the humor aspect, in fact, that's one of the biggest reasons I buy the book. The Indians chapter last year was comic genius. But that can be done while still remaining topical and giving good information.
I like when the analyst states his opinion about the Pecota projection. It gives me a sense that the analyst has considered non-statistical information that Pecota does not evaluate.
As a guide for roto/fantasy players, BPros is superior to anything else out there. But if you want cutting-edge sabermetric analysis a la the James Abstracts of the '80s, you need to look elsewhere; that is not where BPros is today.
-- MWE
-- MWE
BPro is still a great thing to have around for looking up players.
I first picked up the annual after checking out the sight a couple of times and could easily understand most of the articles and player comments. What I needed to know I got (for free!) at the Internet sight. Maybe its only me, but i get most of the references and find the writing a refreshing break from mainstrean (re: cooporatized blather) articles about baseball.
On the review, the reviewer's desicion not to view the website is simply irresponsible and indicates an astonishing level of arrogance. The combination of poor writing and a curious amount of pathos (come on, a fatal flaw for a f'in baseball book, get over yourself) was new to me at this website. Platchke and Beaton included, this is one of the poorest displays of journalism I have ever seen here.
Frankly, I preferred the Big Baseball Annual for most of its history but agree that the last two issues were hard to tolerate. However, I still enjoy Baseball Prospectus too -- I don't see any better annual out there.
The comparisons to Bill James are rather ironic. He's not exactly the poster boy for open source, is he? Not only does he not publish anything the last couple of years, he can't even answer various questions in interviews due to his employment by the Boston Red Sox.
PECOTA is pretty clearly marketed as a proprietary projection system. I don't know that publishing the details of a projection system are going to contribute to sabermetric understanding very much anyway. Also, I don't think that the legendary Bill James ever published a complete set of formulas for the Brock6 projection system or its progeny.
That being said, it sure would be nice to publish formulas behind the other statistics, but it wouldn't bother me if they were part of a glossary of the free portion of their website.
Great debate, guys. I love it when book reviews are opinated even if I don't agree with them all.
And as a sidenote, Hanke says that the book costs $17.95...I bought mine new for $12.21, and if one goes to the wretched, evil website, one would see it advertised for that price...
I'm a BPro website subscriber not for their PECOTA projections or their in depth statistical methodologies, but more for their insightful articles and their unique features like "Under the Knife."
I hope the people who read this article won't be so put off as to not give Baseball Prospectus a chance. It falls somewhere between Rob Neyer and hardcore number crunching, and I appreciate and enjoy that.
I think any point I was going to make got made for me, but I can add this:
I don't participate in rotoball. I have read BP every year since 2002, mostly because it can be, at times, incredibly entertaining. My mom's husband is a rotogeek. He's purchased BP every year since 2002, forsaking another rotoball annual. He's a bright guy.
One of the aspects of BP that I feel has been overlooked is the fact that they are constantly losing their talent to major league ballclubs. Gone are Keith Law, Gary Huckaby,and Doug Pappas (sadly, to death). That's some serious exodus of quality analysts. That's not to say that their replacements are inadequate, but replacing writers of that caliber has just got to be flat-out difficult. (Particularly Pappas. He was just great. I miss the hell out of that guy.)
I agree completely.
This seems like a platform for a petty individual to play David to BP's Goliath,
It certainly appears that way, doesn't it?
and I'm disappointed in BTF's decision to facilitate it.
This is where I disagree. I'm thrilled that they facilitated it.
What BTF brings to the table moreso than other sites is discussion of content. To the extent that a bad article appears on another site, the lack of reasoned discussion and debate leaves me wondering if the whole world has gone mad, or soon will. I'm left wondering if people really think that way, and how many simple minds will be corrupted by having read the article.
Not so here. Already we're more than 50 comments in, most of which agree that this was a hacktastic article. That alone gives a fair amount of guidance. But even with those comments, some are pointing out ways in which the article was indeed accurate. Others are offering truly constructive criticism, suggesting ways in which the review would have been more helpful.
I think we're all better off for this discussion having taken place. Without BTF, I doubt that it would have.
(Cue Ronan Tynan.)
Uh, yeah he did, in the back of one of the abstracts, and I remember entering it into 1-2-3.
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