I think I've mentioned this before, but the thing I like least about this script that's been repeated the last several years is that the Yankees are transformed into underdogs fighting back despite adversity every single year. Their return to the top of the standings should be expected but it is always treated as some sort of surprise resurgence.

The other annoying thing is that if the Red Sox would just win 100 games, they wouldn't have to worry about this whole soap opera.

After missing the playoffs in 2 out of 3 years, they're going to have to go crazy in the off-season. Sabathia, Teixiera, and who else is out there? A shortstop would be nice . . .

What a terrible game.

I rather enjoyed it.

Winning isn't everything.

Their return to the top of the standings should be expected but it is always treated as some sort of surprise resurgence.

Well, they are actually in 3rd, and finished 2nd last year, and play in the same division as the World Series champions. The Yankees are not "underdogs" but there is no inevitability about any of this.

I still think the Red Sox will win the AL East if Ortiz and Ramirez are both healthy and in the lineup most of the rest of the way. However, if Wang is back fairly soon and pitching like himself, I think the Yankees take the WC. That would bum me out slightly--like many, I want to see the Rays in the post-season.

What's wrong w/a 1-0 pitchers' duel? I thought the game was pretty intense, and thus, pretty good. Chamberlain looked great.

Wang won't be back until September at the earliest, and it's likely he won't be back at all.

Wang won't be back until September at the earliest, and it's likely he won't be back at all.

I had heard mid-late August; if your info is right, I see the Yankees coming up short. I think they will need him.

What a terrible game.

I rather enjoyed it.

As would any real baseball fan. A 1-0 duel between two of the best pitchers in baseball isn't anything to cry about, no matter who wins or loses.

And JC, how about that defensive sequence in the second? Best three outs in a row I've seen in years.

The other annoying thing is that if the Red Sox would just win 100 games, they wouldn't have to worry about this whole soap opera.

You make it sound so easy.

Andy, we've been down this road before where you've tried to tell people how to be 'real baseball fans.' Basiscally, you're full of ####.

Darren, did you catch my last post in the chatter?

Basiscally, you're full of ####.

*

Andy, since Darren is angry about the game, we'll put a * on this to balance the historical record.

I don't much like either team, and I thought tonight's game was great.

Darren, who do you think will win the AL East? You had to put, say , a grand down, is it on the Sox? I'd assume so.

I did now. Yeah, that pitch stunk.

I'd pick the Red Sox right now, but if the Rays pick up a bat like Bay or Milton Bradley, I might pick them.

robin,

What in the world are you talking about?

And why are you asking me that question?

And why are you asking me that question?

Because I want to know what you think. We have had our little snarkoffs about this stuff, but I want your opinion: is your team the most likely to win this race? Or do you think the Yankees will catch and pass them? People overrate the value of predictions in my opinion, but in this case I want to know.

Andy, we've been down this road before where you've tried to tell people how to be 'real baseball fans.' Basiscally, you're full of ####.

Yeah, we have been down this road before, Darren, and I think you'll be about halfway to North Dakota before you realize that your leg is being pulled.

It's only a game, Darren. It's really only a game.

So you agree that it was a terrible game?

Darren, please don't get baited by fans of third place teams.

So you agree that it was a terrible game?

It was a fabulous game, as are 90% of all Yankees-Red Sox games. You win some and you lose some. Geez, you'd think that the Red Sox were the ones who've been zero for the past seven years.

I have no idea what they point of what you're saying here. If you think posting in Sox Therapy that a 1-0 loss was a horrible game is somehow excessive whining or complaining, I don't know what to tell you.

I have no idea what they point of what you're saying here. If you think posting in Sox Therapy that a 1-0 loss was a horrible game is somehow excessive whining or complaining, I don't know what to tell you.

It's not the idea that a 1-0 loss is horrible, it's the whining about the umpiring. But of course the whining is half of the fun, I suppose. You can't be a true fan unless you whine about the umpiring instead of just admitting that Joba dominated your team from A to Z and realizing that you're still two games ahead and that there's another game in about fifteen and a half hours.

For me, I'm going to get some sleep and look forward to Pettitte and Wakefield tomorrow. Should be another good matchup.

It's not the idea that a 1-0 loss is horrible, it's the whining about the umpiring.

What whining about the umpiring? I didn't mention the umpiring. I did mention it in the other thread. Of course, fans of both teams agreed that the umpiring was absolutely terrible. But that's irrelevant to you because you want to call the Red Sox fan a whiner who can't admit that his team got beat.

Or is this just another case of you hilariously pulling my leg?

I don't think either team can say they really got *screwed* by the umpiring, but I'll say that we don't know who would have won last night with a competent strike zone being called. It was so uniformly bad it changed the nature of the game.

The little [bleeep] [bleep] Cnut threw at Youkilis! AGAIN!! "Yeah it got away from him". It consistently gets away from him FOR THSI PARTICULAR PLAYER.

Terry Francona is a pretty mild mannered guy. If ther'es a blowout I'm sending Timlin up headhunting.

It's not the idea that a 1-0 loss is horrible, it's the whining about the umpiring.

What whining about the umpiring? I didn't mention the umpiring. I did mention it in the other thread.

I didn't call that bltch a whore in the courtroom, your honor---I called her a ho in the other room! You gotta know the difference!

The little [bleeep] [bleep] Cnut threw at Youkilis! AGAIN!! "Yeah it got away from him". It consistently gets away from him FOR THSI PARTICULAR PLAYER.

Terry Francona is a pretty mild mannered guy. If ther'es a blowout I'm sending Timlin up headhunting.

Now that's the kind of reaction that makes for great rivalries! You go, girl! Blood on the old Fens!

Mike Timlin's always been one of my favorite Sawksers. Total redneck archtype who reminds me of Joseph Sawyer, the 1930's character actor who used to play gangsters and fascists in many old Bogart movies. Nobody gets the best of Mike C. Timlin!

So today it's Pettitte against that old Yankee black cat, Tim Wakefield. Too bad Aaron M.M. Boone is long gone. I'll even put up with McCarver for this one.

Now that's the kind of reaction that makes for great rivalries! You go, girl! Blood on the old Fens!

You don't need to get me riled up. I'm ALREADY riled up.

Mike Timlin's always been one of my favorite Sawksers. Total redneck archtype who reminds me of Joseph Sawyer, the 1930's character actor who used to play gangsters and fascists in many old Bogart movies. Nobody gets the best of Mike C. Timlin!

I actaully only want Timlin to go headhunting because I want Timlin to get suspended.

Timlin's the sort of throwback ballplayer who would squirt tobacco juice on the White House rug. How can you not love the guy?

Because we have to watch him pitch on a (semi) regular basis.

Someone let me know when Andy's done trolling here. I have a feeling it will coincide with the next Yankee loss, if that ever comes.

Darren, go back to your PC Police breakfast. This is an open forum. Sorry that you think otherwise, and that you feel compelled to take everything I write and try to fit it into to your little preconceived categories. But that's your problem, not mine.

In the meantime, I'd suggest putting this on your wall. Me, I've got one of these.

given a fair shake, Lowell was going to win that at-bat. fighting off pitch after pitch and waiting for even the tiniest of mistakes... and then that dolt who wouldnt know the strike zone from his own sweaty forehead pulls the rug out from under him.

This shows just how far inside the pitch by Rivera was. Foster was giving the outside corner, but Rivera's pitch was nothing but a blatant bad call. He didn't call any other pitch that far off the plate a strike the entire game.

Andy,

I haven't in any way tried to prevent you from saying what you want to say here. But as free as you are to troll here, I'm free to point out that you're trolling. And if you can't admit to yourself that you're trolling by showing up in Sox Therapy for the first time in years after an excruciating Sox loss to the Yanks, then that's your problem.

I enjoyed the game and the chatter, even if the ump was lousy. I would have enjoyed it much less if they had lost I think.

Having finally seen the replay, I don't think one can reasonably argue that it was a borderline call. Foster just plain blew it. But that's baseball. I stopped getting worked up over these things after the Willie Bloomquist "steal" last year.

Andy,

I haven't in any way tried to prevent you from saying what you want to say here. But as free as you are to troll here, I'm free to point out that you're trolling. And if you can't admit to yourself that you're trolling by showing up in Sox Therapy for the first time in years after an excruciating Sox loss to the Yanks, then that's your problem.

First, I've made comments in Sox Therapy many times over the years, including several times to praise the Sox. And for good reason---they're the champs until someone proves otherwise. Last night was but one minor skirmish in an ongoing war that neither of us would want to see end.

But unless you have an enlarged definition of "trolling," I plead not guilty. To me "trolling" is making hit and run comments, not responding to arguments, forever changing the subject, engaging in personal insult, never admitting the possibility of other POVs, etc. I'll let others decide if by that standard I've been trolling.

That's because it was the last bad call that went against the Yanks! ;)

I still remember that "hit" Coco caught in Yankee stadium.

one of the posters in the link in #135 said this:

It wasn't NYY bias, it was Rivera bias and it's nothing new. Rivera has, does, and most likely will continue to get that pitch called a strike - the cutter that starts a foot off the plate (where the catcher's set up) and cuts to within 6 inches of the plate. It's generally the outside pitch to lefties, but in last night's game it was a cutter inside to Lowell which got everyone in an uproar. Same pitch location-wise that he's gotten for 10 years now when he throws it to a lefty.

he's exactly right. Rivera has mastered the just-barely-strike for so long now he has gotten all the generous calls. Unfair? Yeah, absolutely, but that's baseball.

When you all have finished doing the Full Zapruder on every ball and strike call last night, I'm sure that the two major political parties will hire you to prove that the media is out to "get" their candidate. And I'm told that there's good money to be made in this sort of thing.

Darren:

You've really got to give the complaining a rest. Andy's not trolling and he's not even trying to incite you. You don't control this thread and have no grounds to complain. His position seems merely to be that bad umpiring happens, not that Foster wasn't bad.

Darren,

Andy was in this thread all the way back in post no. 9. It's not accurate to say he's just showing up because the Yankees won. I understand (and share) your feelings that it's bad form to show up in a Sox Therapy thread strictly to gloat, but this was a thread that predated the start of the series and included back and forth from fans from both teams before the game. I don't think the fact the Red Sox lost means that Yankee fans must then stay away. All he said was that a 1-0 game that baseball fans should appreciate, which is a reasonable position. I'd acquit him on trolling charges.

Darren,

Andy was in this thread all the way back in post no. 9.

Actually, it was in post no. 4, at 10:07 yesterday morning. And here was the complete text of my first "troll":

They should cancel the other 42 games and put these three on the four broadcast networks plus ESPN and every ExtraInnings channel. And cancel all campaign speeches for the weekend. This is what baseball is all about.

Guess I was wrong about Andy's appearance. My mistake. It does negate my point about his showing up here just to troll, but I still think the content is trollish.

All he said was that a 1-0 game that baseball fans should appreciate,

Actually he said that any real fan would appreciate it.

You've really got to give the complaining a rest. Andy's not trolling and he's not even trying to incite you. You don't control this thread and have no grounds to complain.

If I were trying to "control this thread" I would be the one telling people that any discussion of umpiring amounts to whining, even if you aren't saying that it was the reason for your team losing and even if fans of both teams agreed that it was awful. Or I would tell people that I disagree with that they had no ground to complain.

His position seems merely to be that bad umpiring happens, not that Foster wasn't bad.

This is not his position at all. His position is that the pitch to Lowell was "borderline" and that he made it look bad by hanging over the plate. If you try to show him evidence that he was wrong, well then you're just some idiot dissecting a Zapruder film and on top of that, you're a whiner and a sore loser. But don't worry because it's all in fun!

Everything that I've written in this thread is all in fun too and anyone who takes it any other way is way too sensitive, and they should lighten up. It's only a game!

Everything that I've written in this thread is all in fun too and anyone who takes it any other way is way too sensitive, and they should lighten up. It's only a game!

Finally something we can agree on.

understand (and share) your feelings that it's bad form to show up in a Sox Therapy thread strictly to gloat,

Is it OK to show up strictly to whine about Lucchino's whining and to say the Red Sox aren't underdogs? That is what I like to do.

I work with three NE transplants who are big Red Sox fans; the most knowledgeable of the the three says the Red Sox need to pick up a reliever if they are going to repeat. I tend to think they can win it again with what they have. Wonder how Epstein sees it.

Wonder how Epstein sees it.

Through the glazed eyes and hazy mind of a coke-filled swing with three high-priced prostitutes, a dwarf, and Jon Bon Jovi?

Through the glazed eyes and hazy mind of a coke-filled swing with three high-priced prostitutes, a dwarf, and Jon Bon Jovi?

I don't get this, but it's funny anyway. Some jokes are like that.

I work with three NE transplants who are big Red Sox fans; the most knowledgeable of the the three says the Red Sox need to pick up a reliever if they are going to repeat. I tend to think they can win it again with what they have.

If you look at the team pages it's hard to believe that the two teams are this close. The Sox have OPS+ / ERA+ numbers of 110 / 116, while the Yanks are 103 / 104. (Never mind the Rays for the time being.) What I wonder is how the whole Manny circus is going to play out. Does anyone here take Manny's antics seriously? And should they?

I ask this because as a Yankee fan, I've read about this kind of stuff for years, but every time I look up he's knocking one into the bullpen or over the wall. But is it possible that this time it's for real, and that the Red Sox think that they can replace a bat like that?

What I wonder is how the whole Manny circus is going to play out. Does anyone here take Manny's antics seriously? And should they?

I tend to think he will be back soon and will hit well down the stretch and in post-season. As has been discussed for years, Ramirez may be an oddball and a bad OF, etc, who doesn't take lip from old traveling secretaries, but with the wood in his hand standing in the box, he is a genius--one of the top 10 RHBs of all time in my opinion. He is old now, but if I were a fan of one of the other AL contenders, I still would not want him up there with the game on the line against my team. I also think that the contract thing may piss him off and work in the Red Sox favor down the stretch, as he tries to "show people" he is still MANNY RAMIREZ and get his last big payday.

I also think he will be playing left field for the Cleveland Indians next year, but that is a discussion for the off-season.

I too have looked at the numbers you mentioned, and I told the RI guy yesterday that I think the Red Sox remain the best balanced team in the game, a very solid if not great team, and I would pick them to win the WS if I had to pick today.

I do think, however, that the Nady/Marte trade gives NYY the inside track on the WC. But..Go Rays.

I'll believe Manny's gone when I see it. And I want to see both him and Ortiz at full strength down the stretch. I don't want any excuses if the Yanks overtake them. Just like I don't want to see the Yanks making any excuses if they get slapped around by a team with a guy named "Jacoby" instead of Jake. Is "Jacoby" some sort of a violinist in the offseason?

This Red Sox team has a fantastic lineup, a great closer, and a great starting rotaton. But there isn't a single reliever that I want to see out there to protect a lead in the 7th and 8th innings. The middle relief is totally in shambles. I could see this team missing the playoffs if there isn't a big overhaul in the bullpen.

could see this team missing the playoffs if there isn't a big overhaul in the bullpen.

I noted a Bos fan I know who said that in 149. My guess is that today seals the deal, particularly with the Yankee set-up guys getting Ramirez and Ortiz with the money still on the table, and Epstein adds a set-up guy this week.

The Sox have OPS+ / ERA+ numbers of 110 / 116

They always seem to have a serious LOB problem, so their runs scored don't tend to correlate with their OPS+.

Delcarmen and Okajima have pretty nice numbers. Masterson will probably be alright too.

Much as I might want help in the pen, I really cringe to think that another trade for a reliever might be in the works. Those have been pretty bad.

(BTW: Why were the Red Sox the only team forced to undo the trade in which they ripped off the Pirates?)

Also, I remain unconvinced that Manny won't be with the Mets by Thursday.

(BTW: Why were the Red Sox the only team forced to undo the trade in which they ripped off the Pirates?)

Because they overdid it. You're supposed to send those clowns a couple of chumps, not hurt chumps.

But they never put that in the memo!

The offence is offensive right now - its basically sucked since the ASB.