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Sunday, September 16, 2007

Hinsker Do

Even before yesterday’s nice game, I had been thinking that Eric Hinske has been taking an unfair amount of abuse around these parts. In sporadic playing time, he’s been putting up a 100+ OPS+ while playing a respectable first base and a lousy-ish OF. In short, he’s been a good bench player and an important part of a winning team.

His performance yesterday was another feather in his cap. 2-4 with a key double and a tack-on HR late, but most importantly taking out Posada at the plate. For the 2nd time in 2 days, Posada had camped out in front of home, giving the runner no access to the plate. This is, of course, illegal, but the rule is never enforced by the umpires. The only recourse a runner has is to knock the catcher silly. Ortiz failed to do this the previous day (likely because of his bad shoulder), but Hinske did what needed to be done on Saturday. And it’s possible that his hit contributed to Posada failing to tag Ellsbury later in the game. Although, to be fair to Posada, it’s hard to tag something moving at the speed of light.

To sum up, Hinske is an important part of this team and should be on the postseason roster. He may become even more key if the Yankees’ efforts to kill Kevin Youkilis were successful.

Darren Posted: September 16, 2007 at 10:19 AM | 38 comment(s)
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1. Royce Rings Heath's Bell Posted: September 16, 2007 at 10:56 AM (#2526997)

Yeah, I really don't see anything wrong with Hinske on this team's bench. He's a lefthanded bat with some pop who has some defensive "versatility" in that he can stand in the vicinity of 3rd base, left field, and right field and actually play a solid first base. I saw him play first base for a full season after Delgado left the Jays and he did an impressive job. There's no reason to give him the boot on a postseason roster, especially on a team with a lack of 1B depth.

2. Mister High Standards Posted: September 16, 2007 at 10:57 AM (#2526999)

Good fair post Darren, well done.

I agree on all counts.

3. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 16, 2007 at 11:04 AM (#2527000)

Free Brandon Moss dammit.

Edit: Was it not just 2 weeks ago where he was an automatic out at Yankee Stadium?

FFS He makes about as much contact as Wily Mo.

4. TVerik fondly recalls Todd Palin's facial hair Posted: September 16, 2007 at 11:04 AM (#2527001)

For the 2nd time in 2 days, Posada had camped out in front of home, giving the runner no access to the plate. This is, of course, illegal, but the rule is never enforced by the umpires.

Doesn't every catcher in MLB do this? You make it sound like it's a Jorge-only thing.

That having been said, the larger point about Hinske in this role is completely valid.

5. Mister High Standards Posted: September 16, 2007 at 11:26 AM (#2527008)

Doesn't every catcher in MLB do this? You make it sound like it's a Jorge-only thing.

Yes, it is still against the rules.

Wok, stop talking - you're an idiot, and don't have half a clue what your talking about.

6. TVerik fondly recalls Todd Palin's facial hair Posted: September 16, 2007 at 11:30 AM (#2527009)

And I think we all agree that "against the rules" gives the runner more or less a free shot, as Hinske did. I thought the Hinske/Posada thing was completely clean and aboveboard. I just didn't think Posada's plate blocking was remarkable except that the Posada of the last few years was completely uninterested in doing it.

7. plink Posted: September 16, 2007 at 11:35 AM (#2527012)

Doesn't every catcher in MLB do this? You make it sound like it's a Jorge-only thing.

Most catchers do it some of the time. I remember Varitek being praised for it in the ALDS.

Jorge's really good at it, though - the last couple plays at the plate he's even put his knee down, which makes it hard for the runner to find the plate. It absolutely invites runners to bowl into him.

Side note: is it possible the Sox front office is thinking about retroactively DL-ing Manny and putting Ellsbury on the post-season roster? Does this trick work?

8. Mister High Standards Posted: September 16, 2007 at 11:37 AM (#2527013)

Within the generally accepted "code" of the game it was clean. By the letter of the rules book not so much, as blocking the plate isn't allowed.

I personally have no problem with Jorge blocking the plate. I don't have a problem with any catcher does it, it is expected, and they should just change the rules to get some people, mostly on the internet to stop whining about it.

9. Random Transaction Generator Posted: September 16, 2007 at 11:41 AM (#2527015)

And it’s possible that his hit contributed to Posada failing to tag Ellsbury later in the game.

I can almost guarantee that is had something to do with not tagging Ellsbury. The way that Posada held the glove and his free hand up against his chest when Ellsbury came charging in, it definitely looked like he expected another home plate collision, and was preparing himself to hold onto the ball again.

Except, Ellsbury did the smart thing and simply slid in.

(Now, if the umpire hadn't made the premature safe call (since Ellsbury didn't actually TOUCH the plate with his feet), there is a chance that Posada could have reached over and tagged him. However, Ellsbury made sure and then reached over with his hand.)

10. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: September 16, 2007 at 11:44 AM (#2527016)

Wok, stop talking - you're an idiot, and don't have half a clue what your talking about.

Lick my wang jerkoff. Eric Hinske is a terrible fielder, slow baserunner, and can't make contact. Had Jacoby been running that play he would have been safe by like 10 steps.

A sign that a player blows: the best thing he does all year involves him getting thrown out at home.

11. Templeusox has Red-State Street Cred Posted: September 16, 2007 at 11:47 AM (#2527017)

What about a run-saving head-plant and go-ahead homerun in the same game? That was pretty good.

12. TVerik fondly recalls Todd Palin's facial hair Posted: September 16, 2007 at 11:56 AM (#2527022)

If you haven't watched a lot of Yankee games over the years, I don't know if I can express exactly how unexpected Jorge's plate-blocking over the most recent few years has been. The press gives the coaching of Tony Pena a lot of credit for it.

For most of Posada's career, on plays at the plate like we saw yesterday, he would drift towards the outfielder on the throw. This meant that even on a great throw, Posada was in no position to make a tag on the runner - he was too close to the pitcher's mound.

He broke his left leg in the minors on a play at the plate - I don't want to dip into psychological waters, but it wouldn't surprise me if he picked up this "habit" in trying to avoid a painful injury that robbed him of a big part of that season.

13. Mister High Standards Posted: September 16, 2007 at 11:58 AM (#2527024)

sign that a player blows: the best thing he does all year involves him getting thrown out at home.

Accept that he is an average hitter! All those reasons you site are reasons that he isn't a regular, but is a perfectly good player for a rotation or for a bench.

14. Darren Posted: September 16, 2007 at 12:00 PM (#2527025)

And I think we all agree that "against the rules" gives the runner more or less a free shot, as Hinske did. I thought the Hinske/Posada thing was completely clean and aboveboard. I just didn't think Posada's plate blocking was remarkable except that the Posada of the last few years was completely uninterested in doing it.

I agree that it's commonplace even though it's against the rules. In a perfect world, the umps call it when it happens and no one ever has to bowl over a catcher. Baseball should not be a contact sport.

15. TVerik fondly recalls Todd Palin's facial hair Posted: September 16, 2007 at 12:13 PM (#2527030)

It would have been fairly anticlimactic if yesterday Hinske was able to stop and point to Po and say, "he's in my way!" and the umps call him safe.

16. Lassus Posted: September 16, 2007 at 01:13 PM (#2527060)

Bastardizing the favorite band of my youth for someone as league-(below)-average as Eric Hinske makes me want to cry.

17. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: September 16, 2007 at 01:33 PM (#2527071)

NOTE: The catcher, without the ball in his possession, has no right to block the pathway of the runner attempting to score. The base line belongs to the runner and the catcher should be there only when he is fielding a ball or when he already has the ball in his hand.

That's the rule on blocking the plate. It is perfectly legal when in possession of the ball, which Posada had both times.

(Now, if the umpire hadn't made the premature safe call (since Ellsbury didn't actually TOUCH the plate with his feet), there is a chance that Posada could have reached over and tagged him. However, Ellsbury made sure and then reached over with his hand.)

When I umped Little League and Babe Ruth, I was taught to make a safe call in that situation because to not make the call would tell the catcher and runner that no tag had been made and the runner had not touched the plate. If the runner walked away without touching the plate, you could always call him out. At the major league level, though, I see umps waiting to make a call most often.

18. GIANTlhbASS Posted: September 16, 2007 at 01:56 PM (#2527081)

Great post, Darren. The collision shot is the back page of the NY Post today.

I too have always thought it was legal to block the plate once in possession of the ball. I don't know if Hinske's collision affected the Ellsbury play. If that were Little League, I would've benched Posada because he acted as if it were a force out. He didn't even have to reach far to make the tag -- he simply didn't do it. Whether that was being defensive (neither did he bring his arms in for protection) or just not thinking, who knows?

19. Joe Bivens, Lightning Rod Posted: September 16, 2007 at 02:50 PM (#2527137)

Posada didn't do anything illegal. As Mitch cited, the catcher has a right to field a throw. He doesn't have to get out of anyone's way if the ball coming to him.

Posada didn't tag Ellsbury because he didn't have time to. by the time he caught the ball, Ellsbury was sliding by him. Posada was lucky to hold on to the ball and put Hinske out. He had no chance on Ellsbury.

20. NJ in DC loathes his classmates and the law Posted: September 16, 2007 at 02:55 PM (#2527149)

I too have always thought it was legal to block the plate once in possession of the ball. I don't know if Hinske's collision affected the Ellsbury play. If that were Little League, I would've benched Posada because he acted as if it were a force out. He didn't even have to reach far to make the tag -- he simply didn't do it. Whether that was being defensive (neither did he bring his arms in for protection) or just not thinking, who knows?

I think he was concussed or not all there somehow.

21. Joe Bivens, Lightning Rod Posted: September 16, 2007 at 02:56 PM (#2527151)

When I umped Little League and Babe Ruth, I was taught to make a safe call in that situation because to not make the call would tell the catcher and runner that no tag had been made and the runner had not touched the plate.

Mitch, I umped ASA softball (fast, modified,slo). I was taught not to make any call if the tag was missed and the runner didn't touch the plate. No one is out or safe until the plate is touched or the runner is tagged. To indicate safe gives the runner the signal to head for the bench. You can't reverse the call and call him out because he walks away without touching the plate. You signaled "safe". As far as the runner knows, he did touch the plate.

22. Joe Bivens, Lightning Rod Posted: September 16, 2007 at 03:02 PM (#2527158)

Darren, you're just wrong about the rule.

23. Dan Posted: September 16, 2007 at 03:49 PM (#2527234)

I don't mind Hinske as a bench player over the season, he fits a role well, but I could see leaving him off the LDS roster unless Youks is hurting. It's not like a 5 game series you need to rest any of your regulars, unless there's a major injury in play. But he's obviously a guy who you want on the team if you make it to the WS for the NL rules games.

24. Benji Gil Gamesh Posted: September 16, 2007 at 04:28 PM (#2527271)

Posada didn't tag Ellsbury because he didn't have time to. by the time he caught the ball, Ellsbury was sliding by him. Posada was lucky to hold on to the ball and put Hinske out. He had no chance on Ellsbury.

Simply not so. Posada had the ball in time, he just didn't make any effort to apply a tag to Ellsbury. It did appear that he was bracing for a collision that would just sort of make the tag for him, but regardless, Ellsbury was dead to rights if Posada had tried to apply a tag.

25. Joe Bivens, Lightning Rod Posted: September 16, 2007 at 04:32 PM (#2527277)

Again, no. The throw took Posada's weight to the first base side. He couldn't shift it back to the third base side of the plate in time to make a tag.

26. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 16, 2007 at 04:32 PM (#2527278)

I don't mind Hinske as a bench player over the season, he fits a role well, but I could see leaving him off the LDS roster unless Youks is hurting. It's not like a 5 game series you need to rest any of your regulars, unless there's a major injury in play. But he's obviously a guy who you want on the team if you make it to the WS for the NL rules games.

I'd rather have Hinske as insurance at 1B/3B than a 12th pitcher. With Big Papi walking wounded, and likely to remain so, that's very valuable insurance.

27. Darren Posted: September 16, 2007 at 04:42 PM (#2527288)

The rules say that the catcher can block the plate if he has the ball. But catchers set up in front of the plate long before they have the ball. I admit it's not as clear cut as I made it sound, and perhaps I'm even wrong about how the rule would be enforced.

28. Joe Bivens, Lightning Rod Posted: September 16, 2007 at 04:56 PM (#2527311)

If there is no throw coming to the catcher, he can't block the plate. For instance, if the throw is going to third as runners are advancing from 1st and 2nd on a single, the catcher can't block the plate. That is obstruction. If the throw *is* coming home, they have a right to field it, and they have a right to block the plate. It's very simple, really. If it weren't the case, umpires would call every runner safe whose foot was blocked by a catchers leg as the catcher was fielding the ball prior to making a sweep tag. But they don't, so it must be legal. Umps know the rules.

29. Random Transaction Generator Posted: September 16, 2007 at 05:11 PM (#2527340)

The throw took Posada's weight to the first base side. He couldn't shift it back to the third base side of the plate in time to make a tag.

What? He caught the ball. It's in his glove. All he has to do is drop his arm to the side and he tags his leg. He drove the leg right into Posada's feet. It was right there. But he was protecting himself for (what he though was) another collision.

30. chris p Posted: September 16, 2007 at 05:11 PM (#2527341)

The rules say that the catcher can block the plate if he has the ball.

that's not how i remember it. iirc, it says that if he is fielding the ball, he has the right to the spot. like bivens says.

31. Maine John Posted: September 16, 2007 at 05:24 PM (#2527356)

I'd rather have Hinske as insurance at 1B/3B than a 12th pitcher. With Big Papi walking wounded, and likely to remain so, that's very valuable insurance.

Totally agree here in the land of 35 degree mornings. Welcome back from the "Jersey shore" MCH !

OBTW, Ellsbury's upside is righteously off the charts, eh? Good thing he laid off the ice cream Sea Dog Biscuit back in April! LPG's new penpal is everything a ten year old could ask for.

Catch you later. JG

32. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: September 16, 2007 at 05:40 PM (#2527373)

I never did have one of those.

33. jim in providence Posted: September 16, 2007 at 05:52 PM (#2527382)

Bastardizing the favorite band of my youth for someone as league-(below)-average as Eric Hinske makes me want to cry.

So I guess that, even if there are things you'd like to say, you're "never talking to [Darren] again"? [sorry, my best Husker reference on short notice]

Thanks to CJB and cris p for clarifying a rule upon which I'd been a bit hazy. Just intuitively, it would seem to be crazy to expect a catcher to field (i.e. wait for) a ball from behind the base.

34. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: September 16, 2007 at 06:42 PM (#2527416)

The rules say that the catcher can block the plate if he has the ball.

that's not how i remember it. iirc, it says that if he is fielding the ball, he has the right to the spot. like bivens says.

I am not really sure of the distinction that you are making, but, inserting my own view of what makes sense, I read the rule to mean that the catcher can block the plate if the fielding of the ball requires him to be in the baseline. Given the general prohibition that "The catcher, without the ball in his possession, has no right to block the pathway of the runner attempting to score", I read the subsequent clause permit blocking in the limited circumstance described above.

35. Elevate Phil Coorey Later Posted: September 16, 2007 at 07:48 PM (#2527454)

Bastardizing the favorite band of my youth for someone as league-(below)-average as Eric Hinske makes me want to cry

Something I learned today....

That Hinske has some friends around here

36. Hugh Jorgan Posted: September 17, 2007 at 11:16 PM (#2529492)

Waiting, waiting, waiting for Darren to post...yikes 3 1/2 game lead. Is it possible to blow this thing??

37. Sometimes it Rains (sj) Posted: September 18, 2007 at 09:36 AM (#2529737)

To sum up, Hinske is an important part of this team and should be on the postseason roster. He may become even more key if the Yankees’ efforts to kill Kevin Youkilis were successful.

He swung at that pitch. should have been a K

38. SoSH U at work Posted: September 18, 2007 at 09:44 AM (#2529745)

He swung at that pitch. should have been a K

No he didn't, unless you count throwing the bat after you've been blasted in the wrist as a swing.

And it doesn't have any bearing on whether the Yankees are indeed trying to kill him. For the record, I think that pitch was one that genuinely got away.

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Hinsker Do

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