BBTF's Sox Therapy Discussion :: No Worries about Coco… Yet

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Thursday, April 05, 2007

No Worries about Coco… Yet

Watching Coco Crisp at the plate, it is easy to see why every Red Sox game chatter is littered with posts like “Coco stinks” and “When’s Ellsbury getting here?” Coco looks terrible at the plate in three games so far this year. Watching third strikes. Skying pop-ups. Tapping weak dribbles on the infield. He looks just like the guy who hit .264 .317 .385 for the Red Sox last year.

However, there’s a reason I’m not too worried about Coco yet. Coco was a good hitter in 2004 and 2005, and only tanked in 2006 after badly injuring his wrist. This year he’s looked bad so far, but that is consistent with how he started 2004 and 2005:

Mar/April 2004: .211 .262 .316
Mar/April 2005: .253 .302 .354

Crisp, even after maturing into a good hitter, got off to lousy starts. So I expect that, even if Coco is back at full health (his shoulder actually might be bothering him), he won’t look too good for about a month. Wait until mid-May, then we can start trying to run the bum out of town.

Remember, not everyone can be Pedroia.

Darren Posted: April 05, 2007 at 09:26 PM | 42 comment(s)
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1. PJ Martinez Posted: April 06, 2007 at 08:11 AM (#2326897)

There was some back and forth about Coco and Melky in the game thread. bibigon suggested that the two were equal, which initially seemed dubious, given last year. Then you realize that Coco for two seasons was notably better than Melky (so far) and then was hurt last year, and is still young.

I'm not going to get my hopes up, but I won't give up yet either.

The sad thing is, I remember his first few games last year, and he was really exciting to watch. It would be nice to have that back.

2. kevin Posted: April 06, 2007 at 07:10 PM (#2327454)

He did OK today but I still have my doubts about him.

3. Elevate Phil Coorey Later Posted: April 06, 2007 at 11:45 PM (#2328153)

He's still shitty

4. chris p Posted: April 06, 2007 at 11:52 PM (#2328163)

coco is one of those players that just doesn't look good at the plate. fact is, however, he's had some good years, and i expect him to be decent this year if he's healthy. it's his center field defense that i'm worried about.

5. Darren Posted: April 06, 2007 at 11:59 PM (#2328170)

Nice to see the nickname back, Chris. Bam!

Phil, I loved you in that movie Major League!

I'm not worried about offense or defense. When it's all said and done, he'll hit .300/.370/.460. And if you try to hold me to that, I'll go back and delete it.

6. Sometimes it Rains (sj) Posted: April 07, 2007 at 11:25 AM (#2328285)

Who was in the Coco deal besides Marte?

Straight up it seems to have been a steal.

7. RB in NYC (Now with Resolutions!) Posted: April 07, 2007 at 11:30 AM (#2328288)

January 27, 2006: [Coco Crisp] traded by the Cleveland Indians with Josh Bard and David Riske to the Boston Red Sox for Guillermo Mota, Andy Marte, Kelly Shoppach, and cash.

Taking that a step farther, of course, the Sox traded Riske for Javier "LOOGY" Lopez and Bard was part of the Mirabelli deal.

8. Darren Posted: April 07, 2007 at 11:32 AM (#2328289)

Have you heard of Baseball Reference, SJ? You can look this sort of thing up. :)

Coco/Bard/Riske for Mota/Marte/Shoppach/cash

I thought the Red Sox overpaid a bit because they were desperate for a CF and set at 3B. Of course, I thought getting Marte for Renteria was a steal and that hasn't exactly gone that way.

9. Elevate Phil Coorey Later Posted: April 08, 2007 at 02:58 AM (#2328935)

Phil, I loved you in that movie Major League!

My only posts these days seem to be a music or film referece.

Time to grow up!!!

10. ptodd Posted: April 09, 2007 at 09:34 PM (#2330724)

It was his left index finger, not the wrist. A serious wrist injury can affect you at the plate the following year, but a finger?. If the finger is sore, it may affect his swing from the right side of the plate, but not much if at all from the left side, in any case, just numb the thing before each AB if it is painful. If his shoulder is bothering him, this leads one to wonder about Coco's durability since he had some issues with it last year (or are they excuses). It may just be that Coco is destined to be a 4th OFer. He doesn't have the arm to be a good defensive CFer, seems to be wall shy but is good on tracking balls hit to his left and right. His arm is not only weak, it is inaccurate to the point catchers are tagging up from 2B on medium hit FB to left side of CF. His best position would be LF, but he does not have the power for a corner OF spot and the Red Sox have Manny.

11. chris p Posted: April 09, 2007 at 10:11 PM (#2330745)

alright screw this. i'm ready for the jacoby ellsbury era.

12. Darren Posted: April 09, 2007 at 10:28 PM (#2330763)

crispy, come on! you were coco's last supporter!

Ellsbury was 4-6 tonight with 3 doubles and a steal.

13. chris p Posted: April 09, 2007 at 10:52 PM (#2330789)

Ellsbury was 4-6 tonight with 3 doubles and a steal.

i'm aware.

14. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 13, 2007 at 11:44 PM (#2334595)

It's hard to have a worse game at the plate than Coco did tonight. In three of his five at-bats, he looked like a high schooler, waving at pitches several inches late, or swinging at a first pitch around shoulder level and popping out. I'm starting to think the Sox need to move sooner than later on Coco and Wily Mo.

15. Elevate Phil Coorey Later Posted: April 14, 2007 at 12:10 AM (#2334606)

Cesar Crespo > Coco Crisp

16. Darren Posted: April 14, 2007 at 08:47 AM (#2334740)

Still only mid-April, but yeah, he is painful to watch!

I'm surprised Wily Mo hasn't gotten a single start yet.

17. kevin Posted: April 14, 2007 at 09:59 AM (#2334760)

Tito is probably afraid of crushing his confidence.

But let's face it. The Red Sox made a major talent evaluation mistake in Crisp. Fortunately, they have a replacement ready who they won't have to give up anything for.

18. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: April 14, 2007 at 11:02 AM (#2334787)

Cesar Crespo > Coco Crisp

OUCH

But let's face it. The Red Sox made a major talent evaluation mistake in Crisp. Fortunately, they have a replacement ready who they won't have to give up anything for.〔/i]

I'd like to see Wily Mo start at CF at home with Coco off the bench to Pinch-run/defensive sub for either him or Manny. (Wily Mo is better at CF than RF at home), and WIly Mo starts at RF on the road with Veronica at CF

   19. kevin Posted: April 14, 2007 at 11:29 AM (#2334799)

I was thinking of Ellsbury.

If they want to use Wily Mo, they should put him in right and put Drew in center.
   20. tfbg9 Posted: April 14, 2007 at 11:39 AM (#2334802)

Coco is going to start hitting. You'll see.

/blasts back JD shot, shivers
   21. Dave Cyprian Posted: April 14, 2007 at 11:42 AM (#2334803)

no more </i> italics.
   22. Dave Cyprian Posted: April 14, 2007 at 11:44 AM (#2334804)

now i mean.

23. tfbg9 Posted: April 14, 2007 at 02:04 PM (#2334903)

Coco's OPS+ stood at -1 at the end of yesteday's action.

24. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 14, 2007 at 03:25 PM (#2334974)

Coco's in the lineup again this afternoon.

I'm starting to worry that Wily Mo is going to be pretty unhappy pretty soon. This is now 10 games, and he has yet to be in the starting lineup. That wasn't what anyone here expected, was it?

25. bibigon Posted: April 14, 2007 at 03:31 PM (#2334979)

I'd pretty happily trade Coco Crisp for Endy Chavez.

26. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: April 14, 2007 at 03:42 PM (#2334993)

I'd pretty happily trade Coco Crisp for Endy Chavez.

Coco's due $10.5M in 2008 and 2009. I don't foresee you getting any takers right now.

I guess this could just be a slump, and last year could have been injuries. Those are both independently plausible explanations. It's just hard to accept both at once. And either way, I don't understand the burial of Wily Mo. I assumed he'd be starting pretty regularly, and I appear to have been wrong.

27. bibigon Posted: April 14, 2007 at 03:50 PM (#2335000)

Coco's due $10.5M in 2008 and 2009. I don't foresee you getting any takers right now.

Cover the salary differential, and I still do it.

28. Darren Posted: April 14, 2007 at 04:08 PM (#2335007)

I guess this could just be a slump, and last year could have been injuries. Those are both independently plausible explanations. It's just hard to accept both at once.

Well it's been well documented that he played almost all of last year with a broken finger. That's beyond dispute. I don't know why you'd doubt for a second that that would ruin him as a hitter. As for this year, I'm not at all surprised he's starting slowly because he did in both of his other years since he became good ML player. Granted, he has looked just terrible this year.

As for Wily Mo, he probably should have played more already. He was supposed to start that game that got rained out, but that still would only be 1/10 games.

29. Russlan is a perfectly-hyped Met BTFer Posted: April 14, 2007 at 04:19 PM (#2335019)

Cover the salary differential, and I still do it.

I don't know whether this is a joke or not, but I think Endy would be perfectly capable of posting an OBP of around .330 for the Red Sox while playing gold glove defense. As good as Beltran is in center, he's clearly an inferior defender to Chavez. That's how good Endy is.

30. Darren Posted: April 25, 2007 at 10:35 PM (#2346042)

Okay, now, after Coco has been held out yet again with his mysterious injury, we can start to worry about him. He is beginning to follow the Red Sox injury pattern of starting out being out for '3-5 days' but then not coming back for 3 months, only to return before he is ready and suck for the rest of the season. At least we have the depth of Superstud Wily Mo!

31. PJ Martinez Posted: May 05, 2007 at 01:32 PM (#2355200)

Interesting comments about Coco's defense from Bill James, courtesy of Seth Mnookin:

"It seems to me that the BIGGEST factor in our team's performance over the last week or so has been that Coco has been just unbelievable in center field... he's just catching EVERYTHING that looks like it might be trouble. There's been no gap in right center, no gap in left center, nothing getting over his head and nothing has been landing in front of him."

"BIGGEST" strikes me as a massive overstatement, but the early numbers do suggest that Coco is playing well out there.

There's more: http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/05/05/bjcc/

32. Templeusox has reached his genetic threshold Posted: May 05, 2007 at 01:55 PM (#2355213)

It's funny, we often blindly accept that confidence, or lack thereof, can contribute to poor performance at the plate. Yet we don't often hear it brought up for poor fielding performance. Sometimes, but not nearly as much.

I'm not saying Coco is a true-talent plus defender in CF. But we have a lot of data from his time in Cleveland which indicates he was a plus-plus defender at the corner, which translates to a lot better performance than he gave last year.

Though the Oakland game I went to on Tuesday featured one of his two magnificent diving catches from this week, I was actually more impressed with the jumps he got on two balls he had to go back on. Off the bat I thought he had no chance at tracking them down, but he closed very well.

33. tfbg9 Posted: May 05, 2007 at 02:21 PM (#2355226)

more impressed with the jumps he got on two balls he had to go back on. Off the bat I thought he had no chance at tracking them down, but he closed very well.
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I hope your observations are signs of genuine improvement in these two keys to capable CF'ing--getting a good jump/read, and racing back and making plays on well hit fly balls, at full-speed and with the wall coming into the equation. If he can consistently do both, he becomes the rangy CF'er with a crappy arm we all hoped he would develope into at some point. Very early returns, I know...

34. kevin Posted: May 05, 2007 at 03:05 PM (#2355244)

I think several of us have noticed how much better Crisp is doing this year next to last. He seems to be reading the ball a lot better and running better routes.

35. tfbg9 Posted: May 05, 2007 at 03:35 PM (#2355257)

Its been a while since he's had to make a play racing back on a ball near the wall-I didn't see last might's first game of the Minny series unless I'm forgetting one.

36. Biff, Red Sox Jinx Posted: May 05, 2007 at 05:01 PM (#2355312)

Its been a while since he's had to make a play racing back on a ball near the wall-I didn't see last might's first game of the Minny series unless I'm forgetting one.

He had to make one in the 9th inning just last night like that.

37. tfbg9 Posted: May 05, 2007 at 06:55 PM (#2355386)

I saw that Biff, on ESPN, wasn't it kinda at half-speed?

38. Darren Posted: May 29, 2007 at 09:15 PM (#2383481)

If anyone was waiting for my permission, it's okay to worry about Coco now.

39. villageidiom Posted: May 29, 2007 at 10:18 PM (#2383816)

Nah. I'm more worried about the Orioles and Blue Jays.

40. PJ Martinez Posted: June 16, 2007 at 10:53 PM (#2406751)

Pretty good thread (so far) over at SoSH about the new stance Coco has used recently (with pics):

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=19827

Something to keep an eye on...

41. PJ Martinez Posted: June 18, 2007 at 11:42 PM (#2409041)

Bump.

42. Darren Posted: June 18, 2007 at 11:49 PM (#2409049)

Hey, I just started a new Coco thread that referenced that same thread. Really good stuff and appears to be having a good effect on Coco.

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