Pap to the Pen: A Quick and Dirty Look
There’s been a lot of conjecture about whether the move of Papelbon to the pen will have a positive or negative effect on the Red Sox 2006 season. Some have suggested that the move has handed the division to the Yankees, while others have said it has sured up a former weak spot. I think it might provide some insight to look at David Gassko’s THT chaining article, which he used previously to discuss Papelbon’s move to the rotation.
I’ll handle this a little differently than David, though. DSG’s work used a generic bullpen (RA=run average, LI=leverage index, RAR=runs above replacement:
RA LI IP RAR
3.00 1.70 80 30
3.40 1.20 80 17
3.80 1.00 80 11
4.20 0.80 80 6
4.60 0.70 80 2
5.00 0.60 80 0
But we have real actual players to put in place. To estimate how each will do in a relief vs. starting role, I’ve used their ZIPS projections for 07 and Dan Szymborski’s pitcher conversion tool. For the sake of this exercise, let’s also assume that before the big move, Pineiro was going to be the closer, Donnelly the top setup man, and Tavarez the next setup man:
RA LI IP RAR
5.03 1.70 80 -.4 (Pineiro)
4.66 1.20 60 3.7 (Donnelly)
4.75 1.06 80 2.4 (Tavarez)
Instead, we’ll now have this at the top of the BP:
RA LI IP RAR
3.44 1.70 70 20.6 (Pap)
5.03 1.28 80 -.3 (Pineiro)
4.66 1.03 60 2.3 (Donnelly)
Note that I’ve adjusted the LI in each case to reflect the fact that some players are not pitching the full 80 innings allotted under DSG’s study. So, for example, because Donnelly only throws 60 IP in the first scenario, 20 of his 1.2 LI innings are given to Tavarez, boosting his LI to 1.06. (This adjustment isn’t perfect, but it made very little difference anway--only fractions of a run.)
So because of the Pap move, the Red Sox save some 16.9 runs (22.6 – 5.7) over their previous bullpen alignment. But what do they lose in the rotation? Here, we can pretty much throw leverage out the window and focus on raw RAR.
RA IP RAR
4.45 160 27.6 (Pap)
5.82 160 3.2 (Tavarez)
I’ve assumed that both guys will throw around 160 IP, which falls into WAG territory. My reasoning being that that’s pretty much the most either has thrown in a season and the Red Sox would be likely to coddle Pap for obvious reasons. Overall, it looks like having Tavarez in the rotation will cost the Sox 24.4 runs.
So what’s the overall impact of this move? It costs the Red Sox 24.4 runs in the rotation, while saving them 16.9 runs in the pen--a net loss of 7.5 runs.
Now, there are plenty of things that could skew this either way. You might think Tavarez is likely to do better as a starter than 5.82 RA, or maybe watching Papelbon last year makes you think the 3.44 RA I’ve given him is too high. It’s also unlikely that a replacement level closer will remain in that role.
But overall, this gives a very basic look at the impact of Papelbon’s move to the pen. It’s expected to cost the team three-quarters of a win. I think it’s easy to imagine that with such a small margin of difference (which could easily be wiped out by the assumptions I’ve made here), intangibles such as player comfort and health concerns could easily overwhelm the statistical differences.
Darren
Posted: March 25, 2007 at 12:50 PM |
33 comment(s)
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Bingo. Out of curiosity, how long did it take you to put this whole thing together? No snark intended...
Criminy. Another case of Tito not being able to manage the clubhouse. Telling Papelbon and Tavarez what they want to hear. This is incredibly risky with very little upside.
;-)
But seriously, thanks Darren for putting this together. It is interesting, I would have thought the Paps-as-starter numbers would be better by a much wider margin.
Assuming that this is true, how can you convert this into wins? I'm assuming it translates to roughly -2.4 wins in the rotation [Which strikes me as a little high. Has anyone else besides Smoltz (who was a starter during four presidential administrations) been stretched out in one season from a short reliever to starter? I thought that Johann Santana might be an example based on his large player liberation movement, but I guess that he was a spot starter before the Twins gave him a fulltime gig,] , but how many extra wins will this net the front of the rotation guys? BTW, I'm glad that you posted this, Darren. I was hoping that someone here would do something like this.
Besides Smoltz, Derek Lowe was sort of stretched out to starting over just one season. Vicente Padilla threw
Same as I've felt with the recent "Jose Reyes = Jesus" threads, while 2006 was great for both players, I want to see them do it again next year. Can I say "this year" yet?
I think Darren was comically hit by a train in mid-post last night.
I do
too.
Darren: great way of looking at it. I think this is right. 3.44 is a fine number to assume for a bullpen pitcher who had a sub-1 ERA last year and 1 WHIP/4:1 BB/SO ratio/good stuff in his prior 2 years in the minors (2004/2005).
My only real disagreement is that 3/4 of a win isn't a small thing - it is the expected difference b/w Timlin and Hansen. 3/4s of a win at a time is the normal way to build a team. However, this essentially assumes a replacement level 5th starter, if the 5th starter is greater than replacement level it becomes either a wash or the possibility for a net positive. That, of course, assumes that Pap can only go 60 innings - for each extra inning, this tilts further in that direction.
That all said, this is all only b/c the expected RA for each of the other bullpen pieces is so horrible. If Pineiro (or whoever) was a 4, instead of a 5, then this changes dramatically. In other words, this may be a defensibly good move in the short term, but only b/c it follows the heals of other less defensible bad moves.
(OTOH, if you assume that the other moves [i.e., building the bullpen] aren't that bad, then you have to change the chaining RAs.)
If we assume that all of the health concerns talked about in the offseason are hooey, then there's no reason why this move would hurt the Sox. If bullpen usage leads directly to injury for Papelbon, it's a terrible move; they would have swapped a dominant closer for Joel Pineiro.
I think this is far more likely, and is the main reason I do have serious concerns about this move.
In other words, if they'd have just fixed the damn bullpen to begin with, this would then be considered a bad move. But, b/c they didn't fix it, it is defensible.
There's just too many "ifs" involved here to start off so pessimistically.
How was the lobsterman this spring? I heard that he got sent to Pawtucket over the weekend. I guess that options played a role in that decision.
BTW, has anyone done a Monte Carlo simulation or something similar comparing the Sox with Papelbon in both roles?
So how should they have fixed based on the talent that was available?
Fine:
ERA IP H R ER HR HBP BB SO2.08 8.2 6 2 2 1 1 2 8
Schilling
Dice-K
Wakefield
Tavarez
Beckett
Papelbon
Okajima
Donnelly
Lopez
Snyder
Romero
Piniero
I could see Corey and Delcarmen making the team too if somebody gets put on the DL.
I'm not entirely sure how to respond to this.
The bullpen wasn't well constructed - I think we should all agree on that. There were a number of good, but no very good, arms. I think it could be a fun pen, but it was a very risky pen. This now makes for a potentially very good pen, and at least a good one.
I don't think it would be a huge deal this season - I do think that they could have caught lighting from Pineiro or Cox or Hansen-learning-something (or Hansack, who I like as a starter only b/c I've no reason to think he'd be as good in the pen). But that is pretty iffy, and who really wants to hope for good luck on the chance that it just won't appear? That is like saying "I think Karstens (or Oli Perez) could be a league average pitcher." Sure - it could happen. But, I'd not want that to be my plan A.
What would I have done differently? I've no idea. I'm not the GM :-) I've no ability to analyze moves that do not exist. Pineiro could be a great move for all I know - but again, if it was a great move and Pineiro is that 3.5 RA pitcher, then Paps is better off in the starting rotation and this becomes an indefensible move. Chaining doesn't help if the pitchers Paps is replacing are actually good.
With a list of things they could have done... I've thought long and hard about and from the players that were traded or free agents and the players that were available their really wasn't a very good solution to the issue.
I think Kevin Gregg might have the best RP they could have scored reasonably efficiently... would you have felt good about going into the season as the closer? In other words their top two arms would have been 2 guys the angels sold on... I think I would be leary of that.
In retrospect, the Sox should have signed BJ Ryan two years ago. But how long can you punnish a team for that?
I don't know if Gagne would have been the closer they were looking for, but he seems more likely to have been than Pineiro.
The biggest ones that stick out to me are: Dotel for 1/6, Gagne for 1/8, Strickland for 1/.55. But as Josh says, it's tough to know for sure who they could have gotten for what.
3/4 of win is pretty significant in one roster spot (Timlin vs Hansen and the like). But the point I was trying to make was that it is small enough to easily be overwhelmed by a) the biases of this study, and b) the comfort level/health impact on the players involved.
FWIW, I think this little exercise underestimates Papelbon as a reliever. In the minors, he was a starter with a sub-3.00 ERA. In the majors as a reliever, he's got an ERA of ~1.3 in 90 IP (including playoffs). His ERA in 07 should be in the mid-2s, with an RA of ~3. It also, IMHO, underestimates Tavarez as a closer. He put up a ~4.00 ERA as a starter last year. I'd peg him around 4.80 ERA (5.30 RA) this year.
If these are true, I think we're at least back around even.
And as for Pineiro, replacement level seems awfully harsh for someone who's supposedly looked pretty good in relief. It's more of a WAG, but I'd say he'll be in the low-4.00s for ERA.
what does he get when he uses 1/4 tavarez and 3/4 clemens?
Watching a little ST right now. What's the consensus on Youks' goatee?
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