Interesting move! How does this all fit together? I'm so confused!

I assume this spells the end for Snow unless either (A) the Sox are so unimpressed by whatever Lowell has left that they're willing to eat his whole contract (or have found a taker) or (B) They're planning to start Choi off in the minors and either Petagine him or bring him up or one of the 1B/3B troika doesn't work out

Does he have options left? I figured he burned them in 2003, 2004 and 2005 but I think WEEI is reporting that he still has one left? I'm never able to keep this sraight.

This is cool news. I hope he's not petagine pt 2.
DB

FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!

This acquisition has such a feeling of inevitability about it since Ned Colletti took over as Dodger GM. Thanks Ned!

Linky link

No link? That means this is made up. Right? Right? The Dodgers couldn't dump Choi. Colletti's smart enough not to do that. Isn't he?

Goddamnit, this means Youkilis is back out of the picture.

The Dodgers couldn't dump Choi. Colletti's smart enough not to do that. Isn't he?

Apparently he isn't, but this makes little sense to me. Choi is a better fit on the Dodgers than he is on the BoSox.

I was writing that post before Royster posted. This is horrible. An outrage. There goes the 2006 NL West title. Perhaps i should climb into a hole and die now (not literally of course).

Or maybe not; TFA indicates Choi would be a backup to Youk, but it definitely makes me nervous.

Oh man, awesome.

He has an option left. I have a feeling he'll be mashing AAA pitching in April.

It should be pretty obvious that Choi should be the starting 1B and Youkilis should be the starting 3B, though. So obvious that I almost have faith that it'll happen

So I assume this means that Garciaparra is the everyday 1B?

What is it about Choi, anyway?

Interesting move! How does this all fit together? I'm so confused!

Start out with Walker and Mueller sharing time at second; Mueller and Hillenbrand sharing 3rd; Hillenbrand, Millar, and Ortiz sharing 1B; Millar, Giambi, and Nixon sharing RF; and everyone taking turns at DH. After a month or two, drop the worst one, and trade away one of the redundant pieces to fill any remaining holes.

TFA indicates Choi would be a backup to Youk

What will JT Snow do, then?

So, why was he waived if he has options? What a confusing move from the Dodgers.

I suppose I understand that Loomey may go to AAA, but you don't dump a cheap Choi for no reason. Odd. Very odd.

Start out with Walker and Mueller sharing time at second; Mueller and Hillenbrand sharing 3rd; Hillenbrand, Millar, and Ortiz sharing 1B; Millar, Giambi, and Nixon sharing RF; and everyone taking turns at DH.

Wait, what year is this?

I'm really confused now.

I was actually thinking of having Choi start the year in Vegas since he has an option left. That way, when Nomar gets inevitablly injured, he'll be ready to step in rather than if he was riding the pine all that time. The Dodgers don't have any first base prospect deserving of AAA to block, unless you like a guy who hit only 10 homers last year at AA.
<rap>
Yo, what's your problem, Ned Colletti
make good trades; quit slurpping spaghetti
You had a firstbaseman by the name of Choi
he brought Dodgers fans homers and joy
Whenever he'd start, he'd flat out rake
but Tracy didn't like him but Phillips the fake
Hee-Seop'd crush the ball when playin' each day
While Phillips at the plate: Mr. Double Play
Like Sam ######' M. that's just gay
how Tracy just raped Choi's playin' time
managin' so bad, it was a crime
I'm so pissed off, I'm done with this rhyme
</rap>

Can this be posted somewhere other than Sox Therapy. I don't think my Dodger fan rants are welcome here.

Like Sam ######' M. that's just gay

weak. really weak.

This has zero effect on Chavez Ravine's chances; it's not like they were ever gonna play him, anyway.

JT Snow, aside from 1997 and an extended hot streak in 2004, has bounced from "suck" to "won't hurt you" throughout his career (not to mention being one of the more overrated defenders of all time), so I think any plate appearance going from him to Choi is an upgraded plate appearance.

(Important note: I am highly prejudiced against JT Snow and am unwilling to listen to reason.)

Anyway, the Angels have been talking about trading a reliever for a veteran lefty bench-guy, so I fear that this move portends putting Snow on the block.

Do y'all still have Petagine around?

Do y'all still have Petagine around?

I think Petagine's in Mariners camp this spring.

I don't think my Dodger fan rants are welcome here

a good rant would be fine. your crappy rhymes, not so much.

This has zero effect on Chavez Ravine's chances; it's not like they were ever gonna play him, anyway.

What about when Nomar gets hurt? Do you think he'll actually be healthy?

Actually, I think I'll go over to the high school game now. Hopefully, I can get Choi off my mind.

well iv now got 2 reasons to cheer for the sox, clement and choi. i hope he does well there, this guy is way better then people say, nice pick up

(Important note: I am highly prejudiced against JT Snow and am unwilling to listen to reason.)

Still miss Jim Abbott?

IMO Snow has been getting by a bit more on his deffensive reputation than his actual performance. The Red Sox press release talks up Choi's feilding pct, and as much as I hate errors as a deffensive measure, ESPN's scouting report also mentions his GG tools on defense.

IIRC Snow can't be traded yet without his consent. Of course the writing is on the wall so I doubt he'd block a trade.

IM not a hardcore statter or anything (probably one of the least SABRy people here) but im really surprised they dumped him. He was oly making 1 mil right?

Then again if no one would throw in even an A ball arm for him and 25 teams passed on him on the waiver wire im starting to think that there are problems we cant see (i mean performance/ability problems..not implying secret personal or attitude things)

I suppose I understand that Loomey may go to AAA, but you don't dump a cheap Choi for no reason.

He's blocked by Nomar. Not a good reason by itself, but let me continue.

They were at the limit on the 40-man roster. Assuming they were trying to make room, optioning him to the minors doesn't solve that. And given that 1B is taken for a while, he's just taking up space on the 40-man.

To get him off the 40-man they needed to trade him or waive him. Assuming the Dodgers were trying to work a deal, nobody would have traded for Choi. I mean, look... about two dozen teams would have had to pass on Choi in order for the Red Sox to be able to claim him off waivers. If two dozen teams won't even claim him, they certainly wouldn't trade for him.

The only other choice for the Dodgers would be to try to remove him from the 40-man roster but keep him... and IIRC to do that Choi would have had to pass through waivers. Alas.

Now, all of this assumes the Dodgers were trying to clear out space on the 40-man. The only reason that makes sense is if (a) someone important is coming off the 60-day DL, or (b) they're about to trade away a prospect for a big leaguer. Since I don't think the former is true, that implies another shoe will drop soon.

LAWoBH,

Was it you that said a week or so ago "Hee-Seop Choi + Kevin Youkilis = Wet Spreadsheets"? If so, it was classic and worth bringing up again.

What about when Nomar gets hurt? Do you think he'll actually be healthy?

I don't think they'd have played Choi when he got hurt.

Still miss Jim Abbott?

A little bit, but it's more than that. The Luis Sojo triple in the 1995 AL West playoff game was the last straw.

I also react irrationally against the overrated, as I felt Snow's defense was when he was with the Halos.

From the AP, via the Globe:

"I think this is good for me because I want to play a lot but I think the Dodgers have a lot of good players," Choi said Friday before leaving the Dodgers' spring training facility in Vero Beach. "I have no chance here. I feel a little shocked and sad because I like this team. I think I will have a better chance with Boston. I don't know what the situation there will be."

He thinks he has a better chance with Boston because he doesn't know the situation there.

I find these latest moves to strongly suggest that Theo is totally in charge.

The one thing that his leadership has been marked by, most of all, is a nearly pathological depth fetish. The Sox now have too much depth at every position except C. I love it.

Assuming that Graffanino has to disappear at some point -

C Varitek, Bard
1B Youkilis, Choi, Snow
2B Loretta, Cora, Petunia
SS Gonzalez, Cora, Petunia
3B Lowell, Youkilis
LF Manny, Wily Mo, (Stern)
CF Crisp, Stern, (Wily Mo)
RF Nixon, Wily Mo, (Stern)
DH The Greatest Hero in American History, Wily Mo

A week or two ago, I was kinda all, eh, about the season and the roster. I am seriously coming around.

No SABRJoe, that wasn't me. But it is a nice line.

Good analysis, idiom. What's surprising to me is that none of the two dozen teams who could claim him before the Sox did so. KC's got so much going besides Mike back injury Sweeney that they don't have any use for Choi? What, Tampa doesn't want to claim him and get Travis Lee out of his unstoppable groove? I don't get it.

Hee Seop Choi's #1 PECOTA comparable: David Ortiz

Very nice PECOTA projection - 265/365/490 in Dodger Stadium.

As with the Wily Mo acquisition, this makes Tito's job significantly more complicated - well, if and when Hee Seop joins the roster, we're looking at some new job rotations that will be needed. My guess is he's going to AAA unless the team has significantly soured on one of the bodyquickness twins.

KC's got so much going besides Mike back injury Sweeney that they don't have any use for Choi?

Sweeney's pretty much a full-time DH right now - the 1B is Mr. Intangibles himself, Doug Mientkiewicz.

What's surprising to me is that none of the two dozen teams who could claim him before the Sox did so. KC's got so much going besides Mike back injury Sweeney that they don't have any use for Choi? What, Tampa doesn't want to claim him and get Travis Lee out of his unstoppable groove? I don't get it.

I think it's just the case that almost no one thinks he can play, and several teams that might think he can already have their 1B situation lined up.

KC has Sweeney, Stairs, and Mientkiewicz for 1B/DH, no room on their 40-man, and likely not much wiggle room in their budget.

Not saying he's a better alternative to some of the spare parts I just listed, but KC would either have to take on more salary commitment, or trade away someone less desirable than Choi to make room for him within the waiver claim period. I'm certain they weren't prepared to do either.

Imagine a Pena/Choi platoon at the plate. Absolutely filthy.

This is so bizarre. Two years ago when he was 24, he was traded straight up, (not counting a minor league arm), for Derrek Lee. Now he cost the Sox a waiver claim.

I'm with the folks who favor putting Choi at 1st, Youk back at 3rd, Lowell on the bench, and packaging Snow in trade for anyone under 22.

Let's hope Sox fans and media don't treat him like the last pretty good young Korean that played in Boston.

Assuming it was to clear room on the 40, why not dump Cody Ross? Or Andre Ethier? Neither of them is worth anything. But it doesn't matter anymore. What is done is done and the Dodgers have made a huge mistake. Not as big as allowing Clemente to go in the Rule V draft, but still a horrible move.

(Not that anybody cares, but the Panthers won 5-2 and are now 4-0 in the brutal Maramonte League.)

Or Andre Ethier?

This is why GMing should be left to the experts (and Jim Bowden.)

Well, if I had to release one player off of the 40, it would be Ross without hesitation. I can't see him ever becoming more than a fourth outfielder and probably will never even be that.

goddamnit...We didn't the Orioles take Choi? He's exactly the kind of player they should be taking a flyer on. I'd much rather have him at 1st and let Javy be the backup C/DH (or traded).

"This is so bizarre. Two years ago when he was 24, he was traded straight up, (not counting a minor league arm), for Derrek Lee. Now he cost the Sox a waiver claim. "

Ehhh...hard to make that comparison. The Lee trade was a salary dump by a cheap franchise, plain and simple...it wasnt a talent based trade

Dennis and Callahan get a new whipping-boy, and JT Snow gets to cause even more angst in Sabr-Red Sox Nation by blocking both Youklis and Snow. What a silly turn of events!

Dennis and Callahan get a new whipping-boy, and JT Snow gets to cause even more angst in Sabr-Red Sox Nation by blocking both Youklis and Snow. What a silly turn of events!

Yeah, Snow blocking himself does sound kind of silly.

No word yet from Dan Z about Luchino's feeling towards Choi?

Once many of you get to see this guy play every day, the excitement will give way to frustration. There's huge holes in his swing on the inner half, he never did quite learn how to hit the ball to the opposite field [ Will the Green Monster Help? Interesting sub-plot] and he also doesn't ever really seem aware of a blatant set up pitch. He'll flail badly at 0-2 breaking balls in the dirt. Lots of potential and a good glove, but those looking for the next Ortiz or a even a real quality bat will be disappointed, Unless he steps his game up... but the clock is ticking.

ez, that is actually what my first impression of Choi was. Then, after seeing him play a lot, I saw that he could kill the ball. Mediocre glove at best.

"This is so bizarre. Two years ago when he was 24, he was traded straight up, (not counting a minor league arm), for Derrek Lee. Now he cost the Sox a waiver claim. "

And wasn't that minor league arm Dontrelle Willis?

And wasn't that minor league arm Dontrelle Willis?

...No. It was Mike Nannini, who has yet to play in the majors.

Willis had already won Rookie of the Year by the time of the Choi deal. The Cubs gave him up in the deal that netted them Matt Clement and Antonio Alfonseca.

...No. It was Mike Nannini, who has yet to play in the majors.

Wow, the Cubs really sold at the right time with him...

Mike Nannini

I'd like to see this:

3B: Mark Loretta
SS: Defensiev outmachine
2B: Graffanino
1B: Choi/Youkiis platoon

The Lee trade was a salary dump by a cheap franchise, plain and simple...it wasnt a talent based trade.

Well, all trades are about money, but that's a nit. If you go back and read Cub fan response to the trade here, then you'd get a different impression.

Question for anyone who knows the waiver rules:

Who had priority over the Red Sox on this one? How many teams let him slide before the Red Sox claimed him?

Thanks!

Choi's ML #s don't amount to much yet, and 1m is not chump change to many teams. And perhaps many ML scouts agree with ez MW. One could also guess that some execs were asleep at the switch, but I assume at this time of year, people watch the waiver wire pretty closely.

David Ortiz supposedly had holes in his swing before coming to Boston (like Choi, after his age 26 season). He was coming off his best season, in which he hit 20 HRs in 412 ABs, hitting 339/500 overall.

Choi last year was only 336/453, but he's had a harder time getting ABs than Ortiz did (who played when healthy). Choi did look great in his last half-season in FLA; given his track record up that point, I tend to think that wasn't a fluke, and that he can become a solid 360/500 hitter.

My guess is Boston will put him in AAA to start the season. The parallel with 2003 and Ortiz/Giambi/Hillenbrand/Millar is an interesting one, but all those guys were young-ish and unestablished, which is not exactly the case with Snow and Lowell. I'm guessing the Sox give Lowell a chance and hold onto Snow. But they certainly have some options.

I read an article over at Hardball Times recently (by Ben Jacobs?) arguing that LA had the best offseason in baseball. About the Nomar signing he said something like "And they have Choi in case Nomar falters or gets hurt." My first thought was, No, signing Nomar means they may dump Choi; paying millions to block good young players is generally not a good idea. Maybe Colletti's got another move coming up, as some have speculated above. Even if he does, though, couldn't he have released someone else? Was Choi really their least useful player?

Mostly I'm just glad I don't have to defend ludicrous trade proposals for Carlos Pena anymore.

If you judged offseason moves by the coolness of the players' names, Boston would be doing very well: Coco Crisp, Wily Mo Pena, Hee Seop Choi. Actually, they're doing pretty well by pretty much any criteria, if you ask me.

Regarding posts # 19, 21, and 24 it is more than obvious to me that our boy Gagne 55 was using the word "gay" as a pejorative: to brilliantly lampoon the manner in which current rap
"artists" spit out the term as a devastating slight upon their enemies, simultaneously incorporating BTF personality Sam M. into the lyrics. He also said a bad word in #5.

That said, maybe you wanna watch that stuff kid?

Hey, look at that muthaf*ckin' PERCOTA for Choi! I love Theo sooooooo much. It's just great to be either smarter, richer or both than any other MLB organization once again.

[sits back smugly, pours the Jack Daniels]

Hee hee heeeeee!!!! Love the move love the move love the move.

The one thing that [Theo's] leadership has been marked by, most of all, is a nearly pathological depth fetish. The Sox now have too much depth at every position except C. I love it.

Amen to that. But this is the way you cope with a "high variance" array of talent: you build in redundancy after fallback after contingency. Got 'em.

But the key is YOUR SKIPPER MUST BE WILLING TO CUT BAIT ON FAILED EXPERIMENTS. Giving endless playing time to guys just because they used to be good or look good in jeans won't cut it. Tito is, therefore, on the spot. And J.T. better rent month-to-month.

Finally, count me among those who are astounded that so many other teams so foolishly passed on this cheap chance to upgrade, especially given Choi's low salary and the minor league option. Unfreakinbelievable.

to brilliantly lampoon the manner in which current rap

brilliantly? right.

How much service time does he have? If he has three years or more (and it could be close with him), then you can't option him to the minors without him clearing waivers Source. Perhaps that's what the Dodgers were trying to do here?

"brilliantly? right."


You know, gullible is not in the dictionary. Really.

I guess you've been a little bit confused and distracted ever since your hero Chavez' Band of Useful Idiots were eliminated and Ichiro and Friends steamrollered the Island Convicts.

Choi has options left, at least that's what I heard on WEEI right after the move was announced.

I think gagne_55 has the potential to be the William Hung of rap.

Good to see Mr. Sunshine back.

Theo seems to believe that he has options: http://redsox.bostonherald.com/redSox/view.bg?articleid=132110

How much service time does he have? If he has three years or more (and it could be close with him), then you can't option him to the minors without him clearing waivers Source. Perhaps that's what the Dodgers were trying to do here?

He already almost made it through waivers so that might not be an issue. Nobobdy ever changes their mind!

He started last year at 2yrs, 27 days. He played 25 games in the minors last year. So it should be really close one way or another.

Trade Snow to LAA for anyone, platoon Choi/Lowell, Youks splits time at 1b-3b.

Can't trade Snow until June 15 or something like that. Plus, it would look really awful, worse than the Arroyo thing in many ways.

If Choi can be sent to AAA, it would give him a couple months to work on some of his holes in his swing as well as reasserting the importance of his discipline. Then you find the least painful way to make either Snow or Lowell go away.

How could so many teams pass up on him?

Who had priority over the Red Sox on this one? How many teams let him slide before the Red Sox claimed him?

Every NL team, plus every AL team that finished with a worse record than the Red Sox in 2005.

(Because Choi was on an NL team, NL teams get priority over AL teams. And otherwise it goes by current standings; until early May, they go by last year's standings.)

And I don't understand how he'd have options left. He's entering his eighth season as a pro (signed 3/4/99), and been on a 40-man roster for four seasons (first added 11/15/01). I think once he's past six and three, respectively, he's out of options. And I think it's not an either/or proposition... He has to exceed both thresholds.

For comparison, Youkilis turned pro in mid-2001 (this is his 5th full season) and joined the 40-man in 11/2003 (two seasons ago). He's got options coming out the wazoo.

Didn't they change it a couple years back so that it no longer accounts for AL/NL, just teams records?

As for his options, I think I read that the Dodgers press release went out of its way to say that Loney would be starting at AAA, so that's why the Dodgers didn't want to put Choi in AAA. That would indicate that they had an option to as well.

Choi's gonna start the year in AAA-get used to it. Unless somebody makes a Snow voodoo doll.

I remember like it was yesterday when the Yanks were 11-19 in 2005, yet they some how went on what I would charactize as a 5 month tear, ripping off a more then respectable 84-48, with mid-season acquisitions picked up directly from God himself.

Choi finalizes the reality that the Red Sox are a team with a lot of depth. I would really like to see them knock off the MFYs in the division race this year.

The killer of that 84-48 run is still Aaron Small: 10-0, 3.20 ERA with a terrible K rate in front of a lousy defense. This after his 4.96 ERA in AAA. There were other moves that worked out better than they should have (getting Chacon for nothing), but that one was the real killer. There was no reason to believe Small was even a replacement level pitcher. Yet he easily "outpitched" everyone in the Red Sox rotation.

And MFY fans defend what was basically a panic/desperation move as savvy.

I'd like the see the Sox try to get one more sinker/slider reliable 5th starter type; too much of OLe' P.'s redudancy for Schill (94 mph yesterday), Wells (jerk), is made up of rookie-type guys: Pap and Lester. I was surprised how often good starters struggle big time as rooks when I checked it out on BB-Ref.

Actually... here's the lineup I'd like to see:

Vs Lefties:
3B Loretta
SS Outmachine
2B Graffanino
1B Youkilis

Vs Righties
3B Youkilis
SS Outmachine
2B Loretta
1B Choi

Lowell/Snow to anybody for some live arms under 22.

Lowell is owed 18 million clams.

Once many of you get to see this guy play every day, the excitement will give way to frustration. There's huge holes in his swing on the inner half, he never did quite learn how to hit the ball to the opposite field [ Will the Green Monster Help? Interesting sub-plot] and he also doesn't ever really seem aware of a blatant set up pitch. He'll flail badly at 0-2 breaking balls in the dirt. Lots of potential and a good glove, but those looking for the next Ortiz or a even a real quality bat will be disappointed, Unless he steps his game up... but the clock is ticking.

No no, I would guess that many people are aware that Choi has not (yet) lived up to the potential he showed in the Chicago fam system and that he may never end up doing so.

What IS exciting is that the Sox just signed a player who is (1) younger than JT Snow, and (2) better than JT Snow. That he has the potential to be very good is icing at this point compared to the fact that the Sox now have insurance in case Snow and Lowell make like Hoover vacuum cleaners.

I mean, maybe he does flail badly at lots of pitches -- his career OPS+ is STILL better than that of either Youkilis or Snow, at this point. Even if Choi is never as good as he could be, RIGHT NOW he may be the best first baseman on the Red Sox (give or take Youkilis's continued improvement, and so forth).

Oh, and the Sox got him for essentially nothing.

All in all, it's hard not to get excited about the move.

I want to echo Chris P's comment on the rap. When calling something gay as an insult, you can't get past the fact that gay is then defined as wrong or bad. I think it's even worse that he decided to play off of Sam M., who doesn't need to be made into some sort of punchline of a lame rap. Gagne's a young guy, and I probably said stupider stuff at his age, but I would say that an apology is in order.

(In response to tfbg's defense, I'd say the tone of the rest of the rap did not lead me to believe that the use of 'gay' was in anyway ironic or a commentary on rap artists who use that word.)

Gagne's a young guy, and I probably said stupider stuff at his age, but I would say that an apology is in order.

At the risk of turning this into a referendum on religion, coming from a kid who professes to be born again, this isn't the first unprovoked offensive comment he's made about homosexuality, IIRC. And if I read one comment about "intolerance" of born agains because of the above, I may scream.

Getting back to the move...

How's this for 2007?

LF: Manny
CF: Crisp
RF: Pena
3B: Youkilis
SS: Pedroia
2B: Any one of the many solid FAs
1B: Choi
,C: Varitek
DH: Ortiz

I know I'm getting way ahead of myself, but that's a pretty solid starting 10 that also leaves buckets of cash for pitching. Only LF and C make bigtime bucks; DH and CF and, perhaps, 2B, are more mid-range; and everyone else, I believe, comes pretty cheap.

It may not turn out at all that way, of course, but I like the possibilities.

Why not Loretta @ 2B?

Why not Loretta @ 2B?

In 2007, Loretta will be 35. 2Bmen tend not to age very well. He's also not under contract beyond 2006 and will be seeking a multiyear deal.

FWIW, PECOTA's 5 year forecast projects Loretta to have a .276 EQA with below-average defense (and out of baseball after the 2008 season).

IMHO, the Red Sox would be best served by letting him walk after 2006 (offer him arbitration to get the picks as I'm pretty sure he'll be a Class A, and if he accepts the worst case you have a highly useful supersub for one year, even if he's slightly overpaid).

FWIW, PECOTA's 5 year forecast projects Loretta to have a .276 EQA with below-average defense (and out of baseball after the 2008 season).

That should have read ".276 EQA for 2007 with below average defense."

Wow. Darren took my "defense" seriously also. So we got two knuckleheads here, three if we count Gagne 55, and we should. I'm not a PC guy, but I agree that an apology is in order. To use gay as a pejorative clearly aint right, whether its done by a 17 year old kid, Terrell Owens, or a big time hip hop "artist." And I think we should force Gagne 55 to sign a waiver that if he ever has kids, they can be taken away.

And I don't think the problem here is intolerance of born agains, I think the problem at BTF is outright hatred of born agains, and sometimes just plain old people of faith period. I've seen dozens and dozens of mocking, sneering posts that reflect this hatred, many times more than I've that reflect any anti-gay sentiment. Scream away, Bivvo.

I've seen dozens and dozens of mocking, sneering posts that reflect this hatred

Unprovoked? I haven't. But I have seen unprovoked comments lamenting the abundance of non believers on BTF.

In 2007, Loretta will be 35.

My bad. In my haste, I didn't see "2007".

I think gagne55's problem was the lack of appropriate rhymes for "play" with the meaning he wanted -- always a problem when writing verse. "Not OK" is oprobably the best, but very feeble. I very much doubt that gagne 55's actually homophobic given his age and education in the US school system, though I have to say I don't see why one shouldn't tolerate homophobia just as readily as gayhood. Excessive PC-ness is also a form of repression.

pay hey hay ray shea stay may way sleigh slay spay fillet...

though I have to say I don't see why one shouldn't tolerate homophobia just as readily as gayhood.

This is the kind of ridiculous thing that Bivens is talking about. How you can say this and then decry excessive PC-ness is unreal.

So people got offended. I meant gay in that rap as stupid or lame, which is how it can be used in raps or just in speech as slang. Sam M. was used simply as a pun using a different definition of gay.

Although, I guess that's the problem Darren had in post 85. Sorry about that. That's the sort of thing I could rap at school and get cheered for, but I have to remember that many of you are PC, bleeding heart liberals who take offense to the misuse of the word gay. Sorry about that.

Oy vay iz meer. I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the depths of your ignorance. Oh well.
Sorry about that.

I meant 98 for gagne 55, not for KM. I'm always surprised when adults show the same.

Excessive PC-ness is also a form of repression.

You'd let your kids run with scissors, wouldn't you?