BBTF's Sox Therapy Discussion :: Trade Deadline Thread

Sox Therapy
— Where Thinking Red Sox Fans Obsess about the Sox

Tuesday, July 29, 2008

Trade Deadline Thread

Well, it’s that time of year again and the Red Sox are showing their usual midseason malaise. A very uninspring 61-47 record (2 games off their pythag) has them on pace for 91.5 wins, which is, pretty mediocre for a team of their resources. Today’s showing against the seemingly magical Angels did not do much to improve my view of them. Nor did losing 2 of 3 to the Yankees over the weekend.

But what do you do to improve the team at the trading deadline? The talent seems to be there at just about every position. Their pen could use one more good arm, but how much difference will that make over a 54 game stretch? And how likely are they, given their history, to actually pick up a good arm at a fair price at the deadline?

According to SI.com, the Phillies are frontrunners for Manny right now. I’m well beyond putting any stock in Manny rumors these days, and I don’t like the idea of doing a trade just to shake things up. But perhaps the front office doesn’t see things that way. Maybe they think a change in chemistry could improve things. Or maybe they see a way to improve the team by replacing Manny in-season.

Should make for a couple interesting days. Of course, I’d be more interested in the team putting together a nice winning streak.

Darren Posted: July 29, 2008 at 11:36 PM | 414 comment(s)
Related News: Boston

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 5 pages 1 2 3 4 5 >

1. Please don't tell Phil Coorey to do the math Posted: July 29, 2008 at 11:52 PM (#2881631)

The Dodgers' interest wouldn't be surprising in that their owner Frank McCourt has collected Red Sox since buying the team. Matt Kemp's name is believed to have come up in talks with the Dodgers.

Yes please!

2. Cris E Posted: July 29, 2008 at 11:56 PM (#2881636)

Well Adam Everett isn't DFAed anymore, so that'll throw a huge wrench into all sorts of plans. For one there's that lady in Rochester who rents to the Red Wings, she's kinda disappointed.

Edit: I misread. I thought this was a general trade deadline thread, not a theological one. Sorry to intrude.

3. With 17th Pick, From LA, 1k5v3L KcoLLoP Posted: July 29, 2008 at 11:57 PM (#2881637)

I'm sure Kemp's name has come up. I can imagine the conversation:

Theo: "Matt Kemp is an outfielder, right?"
Ned: [checks with Torre] "Yes, it seems so"
Theo: "Manny is also an outfielder"
Ned: [logs onto b-ref, types in "Manny", gets Manny Alexander's page, appears confused] "Ugh..."

4. Dan Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:22 AM (#2881656)

I’m well beyond putting any stock in Manny rumors these days, and I don’t like the idea of doing a trade just to shake things up. But perhaps the front office doesn’t see things that way. Maybe they think a change in chemistry could improve things. Or maybe they see a way to improve the team by replacing Manny in-season.

I have come around to fully embracing the idea of trading Manny. I think the team needs a trade to shake things up and kick them in the ass. The team just seems to be coasting right now, and it's not fun to watch.

5. PJ Martinez Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:22 AM (#2881657)

Phillies? I don't get it. I'd love the Marlins to pick him up, though. What would they offer in return?

6. Darren Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:23 AM (#2881659)

Hanley!

7. PJ Martinez Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:27 AM (#2881665)

Fantastic. We'd definitely get the better Ramirez in that exchange. And I'd have an excuse to talk again about that sweet double I saw him hit in Lowell that one time.

8. Darren Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:29 AM (#2881669)

Speaking of trades, who was yammering on about getting Quentin earlier in the year? Chip? Dan? That dude should be put in charge of something.

9. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:34 AM (#2881672)

I have come around to fully embracing the idea of trading Manny. I think the team needs a trade to shake things up and kick them in the ass. The team just seems to be coasting right now, and it's not fun to watch.

I can see it, but the Sox still need to get back reasonably close value. That was pretty easy in 2004 because baseball people still loved Nomar, it'll be harder with Manny. Everyone knows Manny can't field, whereas the Red Sox traded Garciaparra either (a) before everyone else realized he couldn't field or (b) based on the mistaken belief that he couldn't field, or something sorta in between.

It's not worth it to shake up the club unless they get a generally Manny-quality replacement in return, and that's where these trades hit a big snag. SI says the Phillies could return Pat Burrell, but they clearly have no evidence that this is being discussed, as they state outright that they just made the rumor up because it makes sense to them.

10. Darren Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:38 AM (#2881679)

The Manny-quality replacement would have to be a) gotten in another trade or b) a guy gotten in this trade who has been (get ready for everyone's favorite word) undervalued in comparison to Manny. A seems a lot more likely and there are some candidates out there. It would make sense to go after one of them, since you're going to need a longterm solution this offseason anyway. As for B, the player would probably have to have a lot of defensive value so that for it to even appear to make sense. High strikeout totals or other things that teams seem to hate would help too. Kemp fits that bill, but I'll believe it when I see him in a Sox uni.

One thing I'm glad about--the Sox didn't get Teixiera. He's not a big upgrade over Youk and I don't have any interest in signing him for 5-7 years at $20 mil per.

11. With 17th Pick, From LA, 1k5v3L KcoLLoP Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:40 AM (#2881680)

Speaking of trades, who was yammering on about getting Quentin earlier in the year? Chip? Dan? That dude should be put in charge of something.

A job as the GM of the Dbacks would be a start.

12. Darren Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:43 AM (#2881683)

wins/$, Byrnes is doing better than Theo.

13. With 17th Pick, From LA, 1k5v3L KcoLLoP Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:52 AM (#2881688)

wins/$, Byrnes is doing better than Theo.

He's working really hard to up that denominator, giving dumb extensions to garbage like Eric Byrnes and pissing away cheap talent

14. akrasian Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:56 AM (#2881690)

Yes please!

Not happening. All indications are that Colletti's hands are tied.

15. Darren Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:00 AM (#2881693)

That's one rumor--I'd hardly call it "all indications." The other rumor is that Kemp for Manny might happen. I like that one better.

16. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:01 AM (#2881694)

Agreed. I think that other rumor is obviously the most believable. The first rumor is stupid.

17. Darren Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:04 AM (#2881696)

I know. It's like rumor #1 is walking around, acting all tough. "Look at me, I'm the #### of the walk!" Yeah right, rumor #1, we all know you're chickenshit when it comes down to it. Rumor #2, meanwhile, doesn't have anything to prove. It knows it's bad--it doesn't have to get all shirty.

18. With 17th Pick, From LA, 1k5v3L KcoLLoP Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:11 AM (#2881698)

You figure McCourt is crapping bricks right now because Arte Moreno made a ##### A trade again.
And all McCourt has to show is Casey Blake. Please.
It's Manny time in LA, you know it

19. Dan Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:13 AM (#2881701)

I could actually see that scenario playing out, levski. Especially since McCourt has a hard-on for all things Red Sox.

20. With 17th Pick, From LA, 1k5v3L KcoLLoP Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:15 AM (#2881702)

Dan, I'm seeing it too. First Nomar Garciacrappa and Bill Mueller. Now Manny. Next decade, Big Papi.
It's destiny

21. Cris E Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:20 AM (#2881704)

And Lowe

22. akrasian Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:38 AM (#2881715)

I could actually see that scenario playing out, levski. Especially since McCourt has a hard-on for all things Red Sox.

Like Joe Torre?

And the rumors of Cashman after this season?

In terms of facts - the Casey Blake trade required the Indians to eat all of his salary.

In terms of rumors - the Dodgers were supposedly leading the Sabathia sweepstakes until McCourt shot it down - he wouldn't allow Colletti to trade top prospects.

Red Sox and Dback fans can fantasize all that they like - the Dodgers aren't trading Kemp for Manny.

23. With 17th Pick, From LA, 1k5v3L KcoLLoP Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:49 AM (#2881719)

Sabathia and Blake never played for the Red Sox.

24. Cris E Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:51 AM (#2881721)

They have to trade Kemp - he's never played for the Red Sox. But once he's gone they could trade to get him back...

25. akrasian Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:56 AM (#2881724)

Keep on fantasizing, Levski.

Sabathia was the top player available during the trading period - and the reports are that McCourt didn't allow Colletti to make the trade, vetoing trading any of the key prospects or young players.

Blake was available to fill a need - but Colletti was ordered to not raise payroll. You can hallucinate all you want, but the best available evidence is that Colletti can't make the trade that you hope he does.

The indications I've seen are that Logan White is heir apparent - the Dbacks worst nightmare.

26. With 17th Pick, From LA, 1k5v3L KcoLLoP Posted: July 30, 2008 at 01:58 AM (#2881725)

the Dbacks worst nightmare

That's Jeff Moorad.
And Colletti has made plenty of moves I hoped he would...

But once he's gone they could trade to get him back...

I can see a Kemp to LAD trade around 2022...

27. JB H Posted: July 30, 2008 at 02:43 AM (#2881732)

Theo has been trying to trade Manny for years, why would he suddenly find a taker now?

I've been dreaming of fleecing the Dodgers in a Manny trade for like 3 years now, but it's just not gonna happen

28. Josh Posted: July 30, 2008 at 09:18 AM (#2881849)

Well, it’s that time of year again and the Red Sox are showing their usual midseason malaise. A very uninspring 61-47 record (2 games off their pythag) has them on pace for 91.5 wins, which is, pretty mediocre for a team of their resources.

Sorry - these types of things kill me, Darren.

Since (and including) the 25th game played, here are the distribution of "on track" wins given their winning percentage:

Wins    # of times
90    2
91    0
92    5
93    12
94    12
95    11
96    7
97    10
98    13
99    7
100    3
101    1
102    1

Median 96
Mode 98
Average 96

This looks like a 95 win team that has bouts of looking like a 92 win team and bouts that looks like a 98 team. Pretty much exactly as expected. They were unlikely to win 102 games earlier in the season, and they are unlikely to win 90 games now.

I'm all for trading Manny - for the same reasons as I've been all for trading Manny since 2005 - but this is a good team, in no way mediocre.

But, lord they've killed me the past 10 days or so.

29. OCD SS Posted: July 30, 2008 at 09:23 AM (#2881854)

Speaking of trades, who was yammering on about getting Quentin earlier in the year? Chip? Dan? That dude should be put in charge of something.

That was me. Can I interest you in a discussion of Matt Holliday's home/road splits?

30. Tim Lincecum doesn't Wang Chung tonite (GGC) Posted: July 30, 2008 at 10:01 AM (#2881908)

What does a 3 win difference look like?

31. Josh Posted: July 30, 2008 at 10:40 AM (#2881952)

For full disclosure, the same distribution in 2007:

Wins    # of times
95    2
96    12
97    24
98    26
99    12
100    4
101    4
102    4
103    3
104    7
105    7
106    4
107    1
108    2
109    2
110    6
111    5
112    5
113    5
114    2
115    1

Median 99
Mode 98
Average 102
Min 95
Max 115

2007 was a better overall team compared to the competition.

32. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 30, 2008 at 10:51 AM (#2881972)

Josh, how do you get that win distribution thing? What are you using to generate it?

I'm not questioning it, I'm just curious.

33. Josh Posted: July 30, 2008 at 11:14 AM (#2882006)

:D It isn't very scientific. It is just what I think Darren did - win % * 162, here using b-r's team game log.

I think if a team is a true talent 95 win team, and you'd expect the stdev to be in the 3 win range, then you'd expect a 95 win team to win ~92-98 games 66% of the time, and ~89-101 95% of the time. If at any point in time a team looks like a 92 win team, that doesn't tell you too much - other than they really aren't likely to be an 82 win or 105 win team. This is especailly true when the same team has, for the past 75+ games, looked like a 95-98 win team more often than not.

34. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 30, 2008 at 11:31 AM (#2882026)

I guess I mean what tools are you using to generate the wins? It seems like you're assuming a Gaussian distribution of seasons assuming a mean of 95 and std of 3, but the distribution doesn't look at Gaussian as one would expect. What's giving it that extra variance?

35. JB H Posted: July 30, 2008 at 11:31 AM (#2882027)

Absent any projections or trade/injury knowledge, the best estimate of a team's quality is always going to be their current record (properly regressed). All the information contained in a team's record after 25 games is also contained in their record after 125 games.

Doing what you did massively overweights early-season results. If a team starts 0-5 and then goes 5-0, our best guess is that they're a .500 team, even though they've been on pace to be a terrible team for most of their season

36. Josh Posted: July 30, 2008 at 11:46 AM (#2882046)

I guess I mean what tools are you using to generate the wins? It seems like you're assuming a Gaussian distribution of seasons assuming a mean of 95 and std of 3, but the distribution doesn't look at Gaussian as one would expect. What's giving it that extra variance?

I think you think I'm smarter than I am. :D

The stdv was an eyeball - I'm not really assuming normal distribution around a mean. I'm just showing what has actually happened over the last ~75 games. (Win % at end of each game * 162, t hen compared to last year) This isn't a model so much as a description of what has happened - meant only to point the problem with thinking a team is a "92 win team" when they happen to be at the nadir.

I think it does show a fairly normal distribution, and the variance is likely just random inside a small sample combined with a continuing change of true talent level as player's talent changes moment-to-moment, the distribution of talent changes, and the comparison against other talent changes. But, I'm in no way qualified to make any judgments about that.

37. karlmagnus Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:07 PM (#2882073)

The standard deviation of the expectation will decline between game 25 and game 162, converging on the final result. This is a good team, but losing Manny (without equivalent compensation) could well make it a mediocre one -- reduce win expectation over a full season from 95 to 88, as the weaker batting adversely affects the pitching.

38. Robert Machemer Posted: July 30, 2008 at 12:17 PM (#2882090)

This is a good team, but losing Manny (without equivalent compensation) could well make it a mediocre one -- reduce win expectation over a full season from 95 to 88, as the weaker batting adversely affects the pitching.

Didn't the Red Sox run-prevention improve with the weaker batting of Ortiz's replacement in the lineup (i.e., with Ramirez moving to DH)? Why should we assume that the pitching will be worse without Ramirez's bat in the lineup? I'd guess his glove not being in the field would have a larger affect on the pitching, and it'd likely be a positive one at that.

39. Schilling's Sprained Ankiel Posted: July 30, 2008 at 04:21 PM (#2882414)

Can someone tell me why we would possibly want Ron Mahay?

40. Ben Grieve -automatic dp Posted: July 30, 2008 at 04:59 PM (#2882545)

Yankees get Pudge for Farnsworth? Sounds like a salary dump to me.

41. John DiFool2 Posted: July 30, 2008 at 05:34 PM (#2882654)

The SOSH-sponsored Red Sox Annual had a cool article this year about longest streaks playing at .500 by teams of varying quality, including champions. Turns out that even a .600 team can spend upwards of half the season playing .500 ball. Remember the long funk the Sox were in last year? They eventually played themselves out of it.

42. Darren Posted: July 30, 2008 at 05:49 PM (#2882680)

JBH has it right in 35. Whatever pace they were on at some other time in the season, their current pace is 91.5 wins.

There may be other factors to consider, of course, but I don't think the pace they were a week or a month ago is one of them.

43. Dan Posted: July 30, 2008 at 10:44 PM (#2883469)

SO apparently Manny left the park in street clothes before the clubhouse was even open to the media. I'm not really sure what that means though.

44. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: July 30, 2008 at 11:04 PM (#2883491)

If the trade is basically Manny + prospects for Bay and Grabow, then it all really comes down to who the prospects are. If it's like Moss and Bard or something that would be fine, but it would be tough to loose Anderson or Reddick. It would be nice to see the Sox develop some real power guys.

45. John DiFool2 Posted: July 30, 2008 at 11:11 PM (#2883500)

Or Bowden, or (Lord Forbid) Almanzar. All depends on whom they ship out.

Bay is definitely a better value on the field now than Manny; I don't particularly care for the reliever (Grabow) tho. I just read some more rumors that Boston may be out of the loop on a Bay-to-Florida deal.

46. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: July 30, 2008 at 11:11 PM (#2883503)

47. John DiFool2 Posted: July 30, 2008 at 11:12 PM (#2883505)

One little thing I just noticed-the deadline isn't midnight anymore (or was it ever?), but 4 pm.

48. Darren Posted: July 30, 2008 at 11:16 PM (#2883513)

They moved it up so that they didn't have to try to get things done in the middle of the night.

49. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:22 AM (#2883690)

So, the rumor that got out there from Carroll and the Florida papers was, from Red Sox perspective, Manny and money (and maybe a prospect) for Bay and Grabow.

Grabow would be an upgrade on Javy Lopez, so whatever, but Bay is basically just as good as Manny, and he has a favorable contract for 2009. At a cost of just cash, they move Manny and shake up the clubhouse without hurting the team on the field.

This is way too good to be true. Based on the Iron Law of Red Sox Trade Rumors, this report should decline slowly over the day, reaching its steepest slope right at the deadline. I guess they add in, say, Bowden, and get Willingham instead of Bay, who goes off to Tampa.

50. karlmagnus Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:36 AM (#2883695)

Hopefully the entire thing will collapse and they will pick up Manny's extensions

51. Darren Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:38 AM (#2883696)

That's just mean, MC. The reason that deal looks too good to be true is because it's basically fair. That's not how Red Sox in-season trades usually work out.

How is Grabow better than Lopez, other than the fact that we have not had to watch him pitch? Grabow looks worthless to me, particularly coming from the NL. If Grabow is in this deal, I hope he's flipped immediately, because he's only going to be taking up a spot that could be used by a better pitcher (Hunter Jones?).

52. Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'. Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:45 AM (#2883703)

This is getting done. Even if the Sox cave and give up too much, it's getting done. The "they don't deserve me" #### is going to be the real final straw.

53. PJ Martinez Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:46 AM (#2883705)

I'm trying to figure out why Florida wouldn't just pick up Bay themselves. Two reasons come to mind: 1) money, and 2) prospects. Sox would likely be kicking in a lot of money, and might be giving up a pretty valuable prospect (or two).

54. karlmagnus Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:51 AM (#2883711)

They don't deserve me is an absolute spot-on accurate comment. This Sox ownership do not deserve any HOF caliber players, because they treat them so badly. Wake me up in 2093, because that's the next time they will win if they trade Manny or fail to pick up his option.

55. Darren Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:51 AM (#2883712)

They may also think Manny is better, though that seems sort of unlikely, given how they usually make out in trades.

I do wonder how much of an upgrade they think Manny is over Hermida for the next 2 months. 1 win? 2?

56. Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'. Posted: July 31, 2008 at 08:58 AM (#2883714)

KM - please. They paid the man $168 million. I have been the biggest Manny fan going over the years; one of my all-time faves.

But he signed a contract with two option years and is now kicking and screaming because the Red Sox would have picked them up if he could have merely acted like an adult.

Manny Ramirez doesn't deserve an ownership group and a baseball operations staff that has been covering up his ######## for years now.

57. Rafael Bellylard is in the worst shape of his life Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:00 AM (#2883716)

The situation between Manny and the Red Sox has gotten so toxic that I can't see him playing another game (as of today) for Boston. Even if a trade doesn't go through, I see the following scenario:

Manny: My knee hurts, I can't play today.
Sox: How about a nice 60-day stint on the DL to give it time to heal?
Manny: Do I still get paid?
Sox: Of course.
Manny: Adios! (giving the finger as he exits)

58. PJ Martinez Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:00 AM (#2883717)

How about... they deserve each other?

I hate it when baseball becomes a morality play. I like Manny and will wish him well wherever he goes. I root for the Red Sox and won't stop doing so. I'm also pretty sure Manny and his option years won't be the difference for the next 87 years.

59. PJ Martinez Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:02 AM (#2883720)

Except, Rafael, that some of that toxicity may very well be Manny's attempt to force a trade and/or a decision regarding his option years. Once a trade is no longer possible, Manny might just put it all behind him, more or less. He's done it before.

60. Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'. Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:04 AM (#2883722)

I blame Boras. Manny has never been this bad. It's all very weird.

61. Dizzypaco Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:04 AM (#2883723)

I love it when Red Sox fans trash the ownership that's brought you two world championships. And for all the talk about how badly the ownership treats its players, it never seems to affect their ability to sign or resign players.

The situation between Manny and the Red Sox has gotten so toxic that I can't see him playing another game (as of today) for Boston.

How is it any more toxic today than at about ten different times in the past five years? How many times has he demanded to be traded? How many times do we have to go through this before we learn that each little incident is nothing special? I wouldn't be surprised if they trade him, and I wouldn't be surprised if they kept him.

62. The Marksist Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:04 AM (#2883725)

They don't deserve me is an absolute spot-on accurate comment. This Sox ownership do not deserve any HOF caliber players, because they treat them so badly. Wake me up in 2093, because that's the next time they will win if they trade Manny or fail to pick up his option.

I'm guessing what you mean is that you like Manny and think the Sox haven't treated him well. I totally get the first part, but I'm not sure I get the second. I mean, Manny's gotten a lot of slack over the years. Yeah, the team has made no secret of it's efforts to offload the guy on occasion, but that's a two-way street and Manny has asked out several times as well. If the Sox don't deserve Manny, I'm not sure who would.

So are you being intentionally shrill, or are you in little August pannic?

63. Rafael Bellylard is in the worst shape of his life Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:06 AM (#2883730)

Hopefully the entire thing will collapse and they will pick up Manny's extensions

The only extensions of Manny's they'll pick up are the ones in his hair.

I have a better chance to have a contract in 2009 with the Red Sox than Manny does.

64. Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'. Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:08 AM (#2883731)

How is it any more toxic today than at about ten different times in the past five years?

"I'm tired of them, they're tired of me."

"The Red Sox don't deserve a player like me"

He grabbed a 60-something year old Red Sox employee by the throat and threw him to the ground this year.

-------

If you can find past quotes/incidents that match these in terms of their toxicity, I would love to see them.

65. Mattbert Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:10 AM (#2883737)

So are you being intentionally shrill, or are you in little August pannic?

It's just karl being karl. Manny is one the last remaining links to the Duquette Era and arguably the Duke's finest free agent acquisition.

66. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:11 AM (#2883739)

We really don't know enough to say who's been wronged here. There are enough reports from enough sources that it seems clear that large chunks of Red Sox management feel wronged, and Manny's stated outright that he feels wronged. I don't think we'll ever get a fair accounting of what went down, but I doubt there are many innocents in this. (Well, with the probable exception of Tito and a bunch of the players. And obviously Manny's not innocent.)

But as things stand now, they leaked what they leaked and they said what they said. This #### can't be unsaid (maybe they could hire Marguerite Porete) or undone, so they need to make a trade. The rest of the team is playing like they're waiting for the next move - there was a distinct lack of focus last night, and the clubhouse needs a good shaking at this point.

If the Sox get Bay while holding on to their top 5 prospects (Bowden, Lowrie, Reddick, Anderson, Almanzar), I'll be very happy, and I think it'll have been a good move. (A good move, perhaps, that should not have been necessary, but it's necessary now.)

EDIT: and obviously Buchholz, too. I hadn't even considered that. I'd rather keep Manny and give Tito a $10M raise than lose Buchholz. I don't think I have to worry on that score, though.

67. Rafael Bellylard is in the worst shape of his life Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:12 AM (#2883741)

Except, Rafael, that some of that toxicity may very well be Manny's attempt to force a trade and/or a decision regarding his option years. Once a trade is no longer possible, Manny might just put it all behind him, more or less. He's done it before.

Sure, he might. Or he might continue ######## (there is more trading to happen after today).

I hate that it's happening. I've always been a fan of Manny's, even through some of the more ridiculous "Manny being Manny" episodes through the years. But he really seems to want out, and is acting out in a way that certainly isn't in the best interests of the team.

68. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:13 AM (#2883742)

How is it any more toxic today than at about ten different times in the past five years? How many times has he demanded to be traded? How many times do we have to go through this before we learn that each little incident is nothing special? I wouldn't be surprised if they trade him, and I wouldn't be surprised if they kept him

Manny's never made comments like this - they don't deserve me, I don't want to be here - in the press, on the record. The leaks - he's throwing at-bats and sitting out when he's scared of the pitcher - have been way beyond anything that's happened in years past. There is no relationship to salvage at this point, I think, and that's never been the case before.

69. Hack Wilson Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:17 AM (#2883746)

Nothing to do with Manny but the White Sox have agreed to take Griffey, if he approves trade, and would play him in center(?)per Tribune. Link

70. JB H Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:20 AM (#2883750)

Trading for Griffey and playing him in CF is probably about as big a mistake as putting Danks and Quentin on the 60 day DL for no reason

71. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:23 AM (#2883753)

Good line.

72. Sometimes it Rains (sj) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:27 AM (#2883758)

Jason Stark is now quoting a member of the FO from one of the three teams saying the odds are 50/50.

73. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:33 AM (#2883767)

there is more trading to happen after today

Manny ain't gonna clear waivers. Tampa Bay would claim him in a heartbeat. If Manny isn't traded today, he and the front office are stuck with each other. I just don't see how that happens.

74. Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'. Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:34 AM (#2883768)

Manny ain't gonna clear waiver. Tampa Bay would claim him in a heartbeat.

This is absolutely true.

75. PJ Martinez Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:37 AM (#2883774)

Manny is one the last remaining links to the Duquette Era and arguably the Duke's second finest free agent acquisition.

Just wanted to clear that up.

76. Sometimes it Rains (sj) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:39 AM (#2883775)

Manny ain't gonna clear waivers. Tampa Bay would claim him in a heartbeat. If Manny isn't traded today, he and the front office are stuck with each other. I just don't see how that happens.

Yanks would claim him first. But Florida and Philly would as well.

77. RB in NYC (Now with a Training Schedule!) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:39 AM (#2883776)

Just wanted to clear that up.

Who's first? Pedro was a trade-and-resign. Am I missing someone shockingly obvious?

78. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:39 AM (#2883777)

Who was the finest? Pedro was a trade. You could go with Wake, but that's a very different kind of thing.

79. Mattbert Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:40 AM (#2883779)

Just wanted to clear that up.

If you mean your namesake, I chose the words "free agent acquisition" carefully. Duke traded for Pedro.

80. RB in NYC (Now with a Training Schedule!) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:41 AM (#2883780)

Ha! That's two Cokes for me. In ST no less.

81. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:41 AM (#2883783)

Yanks would claim him first. But Florida and Philly would as well.

Really? Florida's interest seems to be predicated on the Red Sox picking up most of Manny's salary. The Phillies would really put Burrell and Manny in the same outfield? You're right about the Yanks, though. And it only takes one team to block a waiver trade, so the point stands regardless.

82. Sometimes it Rains (sj) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:52 AM (#2883800)

Rollins
Utley
Manny
Howard
Burell
Feliz
Victorino
Ruiz/Coste

I don't care who is playing LF and RF. that lineup is one of the scariest lineups in 30 years.

83. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 09:54 AM (#2883805)

With the power alleys in CBP, Manny would probably hit about 20 HRs over the last two months. Yeah, you're right.

84. SoSH U at work Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:01 AM (#2883816)

I'd say Damon was better. Four good years at a really good price. Manny obviously was productive, but he didn't come cheaply.

85. Darren Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:08 AM (#2883831)

You're all forgetting someone. I'll give you a hint: I can't believe you're forgetting him.

86. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:09 AM (#2883835)

I'd say Damon was better. Four good years at a really good price. Manny obviously was productive, but he didn't come cheaply.

Dollars per win, Damon was better. But dollars per win, so was Rich Garces.

Aggregate wins, Manny was the best, and that's the more important measure in my book, especially for a team that's hitting the luxury tax threshold every year.

87. Nasty Nate Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:09 AM (#2883834)

Haha Darren I might be thinking of the same person: Duquette's 2nd-to-last transaction for the Sox?

signing Rey Sanchez was the last

88. jyjjy Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:09 AM (#2883836)

Damon
Jeter
Manny
A-Rod
Giambi
Cano
Abreu
Nady
I-Rod

Ugly defense but I'd be willing to put up with it.

89. SoSH U at work Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:14 AM (#2883842)

Aggregate wins, Manny was the best, and that's the more important measure in my book, especially for a team that's hitting the luxury tax threshold every year.

Sure, but we're talking about Duke's best signing, which is different to me than which one contributed the most production to the Red Sox. Getting Manny didn't require any special insight on DD's part, just enough scratch to outlast the Tribe.

90. Sometimes it Rains (sj) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:17 AM (#2883847)

Is this the catchall thread?

91. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:21 AM (#2883853)

Getting Manny didn't require any special insight on DD's part, just enough scratch to outlast the Tribe.

No way. You have to choose to commit to a free agent. Signing superstars is the second most important part of a Red Sox GM's job, and Duquette got it right.

92. Sometimes it Rains (sj) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:23 AM (#2883857)

Ugly defense but I'd be willing to put up with it

You would have to break up the lefties, three in a row is too many. And Damon in CF and Abreu in left? that lineup would have to score 15 runs.

I would go

Jeter
Abreu
Arod
Giambi
Manny
Damon
Cano
Nady
Irod

93. Darren Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:25 AM (#2883860)

I didn't think that DD handled the Manny negotiations very well. He was bidding against himself because Cleveland really wasn't in it. But you've got to give him credit for getting a good player at a reasonably fair price.

94. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:27 AM (#2883864)

One of my patients just collapsed, the people on-call dealt with it, I went back dealt with the aftermath, I don't think I screwed up, grandma had a bad heart anyway. She's concious and in the ICU.

So back to deadline day!

95. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:28 AM (#2883866)

Hooray for HIPAA!

96. Sometimes it Rains (sj) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:29 AM (#2883868)

Hooray for HIPAA!

Wok is just following the Red Sox Front Office's lead.

97. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:30 AM (#2883869)

Yeah, they ran an MRI on Granny, it totally came back clean. She was just faking that code.

98. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:32 AM (#2883874)

She's had a one month old fever, we were running the ol' FUO routine until she collapsed. Her heart sucked.

99. Sometimes it Rains (sj) Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:34 AM (#2883878)

Her heart sucked

I bet she didn't even take the bat off her shoulder.

100. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: July 31, 2008 at 10:49 AM (#2883898)

You're all forgetting someone. I'll give you a hint: I can't believe you're forgetting him.

Poland?

Page 1 of 5 pages 1 2 3 4 5 >

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

<< Back to main

Tuesday, July 29, 2008

Trade Deadline Thread

Reader Comments and Retorts

Support BBTF

My Bookmarks

Hot Topics