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Sox Therapy
— Where Thinking Red Sox Fans Obsess about the Sox
— Where Thinking Red Sox Fans Obsess about the Sox
Tuesday, July 29, 2008
Trade Deadline Thread
Well, it’s that time of year again and the Red Sox are showing their usual midseason malaise. A very uninspring 61-47 record (2 games off their pythag) has them on pace for 91.5 wins, which is, pretty mediocre for a team of their resources. Today’s showing against the seemingly magical Angels did not do much to improve my view of them. Nor did losing 2 of 3 to the Yankees over the weekend.
But what do you do to improve the team at the trading deadline? The talent seems to be there at just about every position. Their pen could use one more good arm, but how much difference will that make over a 54 game stretch? And how likely are they, given their history, to actually pick up a good arm at a fair price at the deadline?
According to SI.com, the Phillies are frontrunners for Manny right now. I’m well beyond putting any stock in Manny rumors these days, and I don’t like the idea of doing a trade just to shake things up. But perhaps the front office doesn’t see things that way. Maybe they think a change in chemistry could improve things. Or maybe they see a way to improve the team by replacing Manny in-season.
Should make for a couple interesting days. Of course, I’d be more interested in the team putting together a nice winning streak.
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I bet she didn't even take the bat off her shoulder.
She could move her legs in the ICU, which is one up already Joba's dad.
I blame Boras. Manny has never been this bad. It's all very weird. "
I hold Boras in as low regard as anyone, but I can't blame him for Manny being Manny. Before he ever got to Boston, Manny did and said odd stuff. He occasionally dogged it there as well. He once had a two month stretch of milking a sore hamstring. The guy can flat out hit, but otherwise there isn't much of his game you'd tell your kid to emulate.
i know, weak effort, just wanted to close out the page. And I'm honestly drawing a blank on this mystery acquisition.
He has never been so blatantly about money. Remember those stories about the uncashed checks in the glovebox, etc.?
He has always been odd, quirky and even frustrating. But he has never been so focused on the dough. That's where I believe Boras comes in.
I give up.
I don't know what happened with Manny this year, I wonder if there's stuff going on with his personal life, maybe.
Here's my out-of-left-field suspicion.
- Manny was happy this off-season as was.
- Boras asked Manny for a meeting.
- Boras told Manny his last crack at a big contract entails working hard in the off-season and getting out of his option at the end of 2008.
- Manny and Boras, ever since, have been figuring out how to make the latter happen.
- It changed Manny a lot. Some of it seemed pleasant at the outset. He was more outgoing with the media, etc and it was all kind of fun. But it also added stress (making him more prone to violence, etc).
So there you go...
Then the FO started leaking negative stuff (there probably always had been the occasional mild roughhouse, but it hadn't been leaked before -- the toilet paper story looks pure Lucchino.) They also did not pick up his option at the All-Star break, as he reasonably expected and they should have done. (Boras doubtless played that up to Manny, since Boras only makes $$$ if the options aren't picked up.) Now Manny feels he's been fooled, and is being prevented from playing his career out in Boston, as he had wanted.
Hence "they don't deserve me." He's right, they've behaved like the sleazy fast-buck artists they are. No superstar should ever play for Boston.
In case you haven't noticed, this mob took over a team with two, arguably 3 HOF players. Once Manny has left they will have none.
If you're going with that kind of FA signing, then it's clearly Wake. That's got to be one of the better of those scrap heap pickups of the last 20 years, even if Teddy can't see it that way.
as for duquette, what about the lowe and varitek trade for slocumb
Why should Manny "reasonably" have expected his option to be picked up? And what do you make of Gammons' charge of asking out against Joba, King Felix, Verlander, etc? And what of the violent episode with McCormick? What's Boston's incentive to piss Manny off?
I was told first hand that they "would absolutely" pick up Manny's option at the beginning of the year. All Manny had to do was honor the terms of his contract, not say ridiculously inflammatory things about the club to the media, and not bully around team personnel over the age of 60.
Sorry, but that's a completely ridiculous comment. Are you arguing that Manny is worth 20 million next year? Do you really think he's going to get that on the open market? And if you want to defend the Pedro contract, go right ahead. Who else? Nomar? Damon? And this:
Hilarious. Do you live in some sort of strange world where the Sox don't have 2 World Series rings in the past 4 seasons?
I would definitely rather have Manny at 1/20 than Dunn or Burrell at 6/100 or Teixeira at 7/150. Manny's option looked like easily the best option for the Red Sox until everything fell apart.
EDIT: while I stand by those projections, I'd also rather have Manny at 1/20 than the Manny clones at 5/75 or Tex at 6/100. (All moot, after the last week, but that was my thinking before this #### got real, and I stand by it.)
EDIT: de-snarking by 25%
Btw, Youkilis in LF for a whole year would be ugly.
You've got to be kidding me with those numbers. You really think Tex is going to get over 20 a year for 7 years? Seriously?
Feel free to bring full 100% snark, BTW. I've already been called a racist for daring to doubt a Kenny Williams trade. I can take your Beach Boys and Bible references. :)
Manny at 1/20 is a lot less obvious than Pedro at 1/17, which is among the reasons I don't agree with km that the Sox wronged Manny by failing to exercise the option.
The other reason is that it is now obvious that Manny didn't want them to exercise the option, which seems relevant. Yeah, this is just km creating a new topic of debate, not something at all relevant to the Red Sox today.
Plus, the worst-case scenario is that Pedro decides he wants to be a free agent. If you can catch him before he realizes that 1/17 is a terrible contract for him, you make that move.
EDIT: To be clear, these are all marginal concerns. Picking up Pedro's option early costs you on the marginal risk of injury, balanced against the marginal risk of unhappiness / hoping to become an FA.
Most of the 2004 flag was with a Duquette team. Who knows, we might have got one in '03 as well -- Duquette didn't hire Grady Little.
pedro always had a fire lit under him. he's unequivocally someone who doesnt coast until his walk year.
what disaster, exactly, is that?
Is this guy always this ridiculous?
Then there's no reason to worry about hurting his feelings by waiting to pick up his option.
No uncertainty is added. You still can have him if you want him. As far as what he wants, it doesn't really matter. He's under contract. The Sox hold the option.
2) I don't see how you can think that picking up the option on a player who would rather be a free agent is a move without risks. You go against a player's wishes, you can expect problems. That he doesn't have any legal recourse against your action is perhaps revelant ethically, but irrelevant in baseball terms.
3) Remember, we're talking about very marginal issues. I'm not saying any of these things are likely at all, but I think they outweigh the also-very-unlikely chance of Pedro not being worth 1/17 at the end of the '03 season.
Aggregate wins, Manny was the best, and that's the more important measure in my book, especially for a team that's hitting the luxury tax threshold every year.
IIRC, the Sox weren't hitting the lux tax threshold when they signed Manny, and they certainly wouldn't have been if they hadn't signed him.
I see for point 1 we were talking about a different kind of uncertainty. For point 2, you're really worrying about hurting player's feelings by picking up an option that benefits the team more than the player? Isn't that the whole point of having an option in the first place?
I guarentee this will make the Gagne trade look good.
The extreme case is the insane Wakefield contract, which I think we both agreed was just asking for trouble in the future. That's the limit situation, not a comparable situation, to be clear.
I thought that that was a reliever.
A Hit Cat reference. Wow. That brings back memories.
So which former Ranger infielder is going to be the consensus best player on the market in '09?
Manny deal close to dead, according to someone somewhere and reported by ESPN.
Still, Manny for Kemp? I'll take that!
I posted this question on the other thread: that has to be BS, right, or Boston would have already pulled the trigger?
It's hard for me to believe, but this really could happen.
From the ESPN report (trade dead) - I apologize for cross-posting - Gammons says the Sox were giving up "two minor leaguers" in the deal. The Iron Law of Sox Transaction Rumors in effect.
Not according to Gammons:
A source close to the three-way negotiations involving Manny Ramirez says the deal is close to dead. Florida has reportedly asked Boston for a cash outlay beyond the $7 million to cover Ramirez's contract, in addition to two prospects. That essentially would add up to the Red Sox trading Ramirez, $9 million and two prospects for Jason Bay.
Could just be the Fish posturing for a few extra $$$, and then they'll get reasonable and settle for the Red Sox covering Manny's contract to get the deal done. Who knows how many worms still have to turn???
Link.
-- MWE
Could the Blue Jays trade Bay to the Red Sox or Rays after the deadline without Bay having to clear waivers? Could be that JP is going to take a chance that he could recoup what the Pirates are getting + a little by waiting a few weeks.
Actually, they've been DHing Eckstein, so they can definitely still use him.
Nothing that the Blue Jays do anymore makes much sense to me.
Don't think so. They'd have to run him through waivers, and someone is bound to snag him (NYY) before the Sox could.
That crosses the line to flat-out extortion.
I believe Manny is capable of a lot, but I have a hard time believing even he's capable of going that far.
Bet they could make an interesting documentary about the Red Sox FO during the next 2.5 hours.
Hell, just put up a live webcam.
If he did say that -- and I certainly hope he didn't -- I sure as hell hope they have it on tape, because I'd love for them to call his bluff. And when he claims he can't play, pull out the tape, suspend his ass w/o pay, and dare the union to grieve it.
IF he said it.
Or, Sox fans aren't going to like the return we are going to get, we better leak something drastic, get Gammons on the phone.
Bowden and Reddick. Sounds like Bay is still in this trade, and I still firmly believe the Sox have to make a move.
Well, that's because you're a Red Sox fan. That's understandable; you want them to act in the best interests of the team and try to win -- so trade him away and get Bay, if you can. Sure -- I'd feel that way, too.
But I'm not a Sox fan. I want to see a scenario in which there is a maximum price exacted on Ramirez IF he said/did what Gammons alleged. In your scenario, he pays no price at all: he gets exactly what he wants: a trade to a team that agrees in advance to make him a FA after this season (and happens to be in contention as a happy bonus), and nobody ever complains in any meaningful way about the fact that he threatened to stop playing (presumably with some faux "injury") if he wasn't traded.
Hence, my ideal world would be one in which they don't trade him, he follows through on his threat -- claiming to be maimed in some way and can't play -- and the Sox go public with a tape. Which, I agree, would hurt the Red Sox competitively . . . . but it would be sweet justice for Manny Ramirez.
Again . . . if he did it.
Thursday, July 31, 2008 | Print Entry
Posted by Jayson Stark
That never-ending Yankees-Red Sox intrigue has found its way to Scott Eyre. Both clubs are in on the Cubs left-hander, who is expected to be moved for a very modest return. But both teams also have him as a back burner option as they search for more impactful bullpen help.
Yet another official with one of these three teams says the Manny-Bay deal is dead. In the aftermath, the teams involved seem unsure of what happened. The Pirates are blaming the Marlins. The Marlins are blaming the Pirates. And the Red Sox aren't too happy with either of them.
Can we strike this ####### word from the lexicon? Please?
If Manny followed through on what Gammons alleges, I think the price he'd pay is the HOF.
They all chickened out. Cashman is the king of GM's right now... he's the only one who is making moves first, worrying about the press later.
I can't imagine why, given the situation THEY are going to be left with if this thing really does fall through. Oh, what a tangled mess. The only fix that might work -- and even this is a longshot, given how much vitriol has been spilled -- is for them to give Manny what has really been his ultimate goal in all of this: 2009 free agency, and give it to him now. If you can't trade him, announce -- formally and once and for all -- that you are NOT going to exercise the 2009 option. Maybe (just maybe) that placates him enough to cool things down and get him to play for the rest of the season with something resembling a major-league level of giving-a-rat's-ass.
Indeed, Cashman drank all their milkshakes.
You could always petition to put it on the BBTF nanny's wordlist.
I want to see a scenario in which there is a maximum price exacted on Ramirez IF he said/did what Gammons alleged.
Talent is the best defense against accountability.
I can't imagine why on Earth the Fish would have chickened out. They get $7M worth of Manny Ramirez for free, and a massively enhanced shot at a pennant that they have very little shot at without him (at least IMHO). That has got to be worth the price in prospects they were being asked for. Who knows about the Pirates? They may think Bay is worth more than the prospects, but that's a more standard baseball decision. I'm not sure why they'd "chicken out" from it, though they might be indecisive or simply say no . . . .
I'm shocked the Red Sox don't just throw in extra propects to get the deal done. You've got to know when you're up a creek and act accordingly.
Damn right.
"FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal has joined ESPN's Jayson Stark in saying that the three-team Manny Ramirez deal is "dead."
Rosenthal's source is an executive with one of the teams. The three-team trade had Manny Ramirez going to Florda, Jason Bay to Boston and Jeremy Hermida to Pittsburgh. John Grabow also likely would have changed hands somehow. It's unclear whether the Pirates' demands for prospects or the Marlins' quest for cash killed it. For what it's worth, Ramirez also denied that he had approved a trade to Florida."
Did Manny himself come up with that one?
Are we still talking sports or have you shifted to politics?
And stop saying those awful things about Reddick and Bowden. I can't take it!
BTW, do you remember what the early reports of the Nomar trade were? That's where I recall the Iron Law starting.
To me, Manny + cash to Florida, Stanton to Pittsburgh and Bay to Boston makes sense.
Perhaps -- but there's always the chance they could overplay that hand and get burned. If it's Florida, for example, that's trying to screw over the Red Sox, what do they do if Pittsburgh turns around and deals Bay elsewhere, pulling out the rug from under their little power play? Sometimes when you commit arson, you get burned.
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