BBTF's Game Chatter Discussion :: RedSox (85-59) @ Rays (79-64), Saturday, September 10, 2011, 7:10pm

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Saturday, September 10, 2011

RedSox (85-59) @ Rays (79-64), Saturday, September 10, 2011, 7:10pm

BOS: Kyle Weiland (24, RHP, 0-1, 6.75)
TBR: Jeremy Hellickson (24, RHP, 12-10, 2.90)

The Primer Chimp Posted: September 10, 2011 at 01:00 PM | 291 comment(s)
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1. Darren

Posted: September 10, 2011 at 07:56 PM (#3921142)

Weiland in AAA: 8.8 K/9, 3.9 BB/9, 0.7 HR/9, 3.58 ERA
David Price in AAA: 8.9 K/9, 4.6 BB/9, 0.9 HR/9, 4.13 ERA

So, of course, we should expect Weiland to dominate in the Majors immediately, right?

2. Textbook Editor Posted: September 10, 2011 at 10:11 PM (#3921194)

I appreciate the optimism in #1.

Realistically, I am assuming the plan for tonight is: See what Weiland has. If he has nothing, go to Aceves early and see if you can stretch him out some more (he last threw on 9/5 for 3.2 innings), with the expectation that Aceves gets the slot as a starter the next time it comes around.

If Weiland can get you 5 IP, then go to Aceves and see if he can get you the next 3-4 IP, with Papelbon available to close if they have the lead.

Either way, I expect a quick hook unless Weiland is dominating, so they can go to Aceves and stretch him out a bit more. I fully expect Aceves to get the start the next time this slot comes up.

3. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 10:14 PM (#3921197)

That makes a lot of sense, especially since the best playoff rotation we can really assemble at this point is probably Beckett, Lester, Bedard, Aceves.

And Buchholz can hopefully fill in the 6th/7th inning gap in the bullpen.

4. Textbook Editor Posted: September 10, 2011 at 10:24 PM (#3921203)

#3--I'm with you on Aceves getting the Game 4 start. Heck, if Bedard is still hurt I'd give him the Game 3 start...

The other option is a Buchholz/Aceves tandem for a Game 4 start--Buchholz starting and you hope to get 3-4 IP out of him, with Aceves to follow.

I don't see the point of putting Lackey on the postseason roster, to be honest. I would rather take a flier on Wakefield as the long man.

5. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 10:25 PM (#3921205)

I completely agree with you. Lackey is utterly useless.

6. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 10:26 PM (#3921207)

And if Bedard can't start, I'd rather have Wakefield on a 70 PC than have Lackey starting a playoff game. Wakefield might at least give you 4 or 5 decent innings, whereas Lackey has no shot of doing anything helpful at this point.

7. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 10:30 PM (#3921210)

July 22nd is the last time Lackey pitched and allowed fewer than 3 runs. And that was against Seattle.

8. Textbook Editor Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:16 PM (#3921219)

Right--with Wakefield, there's a non-zero chance you run into a 7 IP/2 R start where he's awesome. I see zero chance that happens with Lackey.

It will really piss me off to find out after the season he tried to pitch with a shredded elbow. I'd give 50/50 odds on that being the case.

9. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:18 PM (#3921221)

Just throw strikes, meat.

10. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:18 PM (#3921222)

Great way to start the game. Popping up pitches over the plate, then a 4 pitch walk to lead off the bottom of the inning.

11. Textbook Editor Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:22 PM (#3921223)

Awesome, we'll be out of this one by 8pm and I'll have the rest of the night free.

12. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:23 PM (#3921224)

This is ridiculous.

13. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:24 PM (#3921225)

Are you ####### joking with that throw, Scutaro?

14. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:25 PM (#3921226)

Christ, that was an easy double play blown by both Pedroia (slow turn) and Scutaro (jumping right into the runner, making an easy throw hard). If anyone wants to posit this team isn't mentally on their game, that failed DP is a great piece of evidence.

15. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:27 PM (#3921227)

Seriously, Weiland is struggling enough that he doesn't need to defense to botch easy DP balls behind him.

16. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:29 PM (#3921230)

That was probably also interference by Longoria on that slide, but we all know that never gets called.

17. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:29 PM (#3921231)

Huge pitch by the kid.

C'mon meat. Don't think, just throw.

18. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:31 PM (#3921232)

I don't remember seeing Weiland throwing 95 MPH before tonight.

19. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:33 PM (#3921234)

If Weiland can throw that 93-95 MPH moving fastball for strikes, he just may be a MLB caliber pitcher.

20. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:36 PM (#3921235)

Gonzalez would've thrown out Ortiz at third on that play. Kotchman's defense is overrated.

21. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:39 PM (#3921238)

I guess I'll take that. At least they don't get a complete squander here.

22. Textbook Editor Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:42 PM (#3921239)

I'm assuming we're not picking up Scutaro's option, right? But if he has a player option, does that mean he can invoke that and we have to have him? I'm blanking on how those things work...

23. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:44 PM (#3921240)

Yes. But his player option is something like $3M, and he has a $1.5M buyout anyway, so there's no chance of him picking it up. He only has to beat $1.5M on the FA market to beat that, which he should do handily.

24. Textbook Editor Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:50 PM (#3921243)

#23--really? Who's offering him more than $1.5 million to be a utility SS who can't play 2B or 3B? I mean, I'm sure there are teams that can use a pedestrian SS, but why wouldn't you take a chance on internal options that cost you peanuts and might get you the same production/defense as Scutaro?

I mean, I can sort of see if Rollins walks Amaro getting in there to get a grizzled veteran, but I thought it was guys like Scutaro who are being marginalized the most these days...

25. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:54 PM (#3921245)

Crawford just gave Rodriguez a free base. ####### awful.

26. Dan Posted: September 10, 2011 at 11:57 PM (#3921247)

I think Scutaro should pretty easily get at least a $2M deal, and probably something like $5 over 2 years.

27. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:03 AM (#3921249)

Pedroia looks completely lost.

28. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:05 AM (#3921251)

Also, what makes you think Scutaro can't play 2B or 3B? He has 324 career games at 2B, 98 at 3B, and 18 as a COF (as well as 3 appearances at 1B). He was a super utility player before Francona decided that he can only play SS.

29. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:12 AM (#3921252)

You need to dive forward if you want to catch that ball, Jacoby.

30. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:15 AM (#3921253)

####### awful 2 strike pitch to Zobrist.

31. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:21 AM (#3921256)

Another 2 strike pitch over the plate belt high. That's not going to get it done, Mr. Weiland.

32. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:30 AM (#3921258)

Watching Crwaford bat is just painful.

33. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:38 AM (#3921261)

Crawford looks like he's on skates in the OF too.

Wieland looks nothing like a competent pitcher. Heaven forbid we get a young starter to even hold his own.

34. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:40 AM (#3921262)

Weiland looks more like a competent pitcher than Lackey does. Faint praise, but at least it's something...

35. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:44 AM (#3921263)

I dread Ellsbury ABs now. Do you know why? Because that means Pedroia is up next.

36. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:44 AM (#3921264)

The 2 run deficit feels like 20.

37. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:46 AM (#3921265)

It feels like 20 because every Boston batter is down 0-2 immediately. And every Tampa inning starts with 2 baserunners.

Good to see that gapper land just close enough so he can get held at 1st. Probably get caught stealing on a dp-K.

38. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:46 AM (#3921266)

Also, what makes you think Scutaro can't play 2B or 3B? He has 324 career games at 2B, 98 at 3B, and 18 as a COF (as well as 3 appearances at 1B). He was a super utility player before Francona decided that he can only play SS.

Doesn't Scutaro only play SS because he's the best defensive SS on the roster?

39. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:47 AM (#3921267)

And guess what? Pedroia is down 0-2!

40. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:47 AM (#3921268)

Stealing second would be nice.

41. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:49 AM (#3921269)

Hellickson must be baffled that Pedroia didn't swing at that.

42. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:49 AM (#3921270)

Yes, what about stealing? Having a runner at 2nd is good, right?

43. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:50 AM (#3921271)

Just noticed Hellickson's peripherals are pretty bland. Too bad it won't matter.

44. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:50 AM (#3921272)

I still can't get over how many empty seats there are for a weekend series against the Red Sox that is the Rays fighting for their last best shot at the playoffs.

45. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:51 AM (#3921273)

Wow, that pop-up going out of play is the kind of play that a season swings on.

46. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:52 AM (#3921274)

Hellickson reminds me a lot of last season's Buchholz. His stuff is better than his peripherals, and he generates a lot of weak contact.

Of ####### course they make a play on that.

47. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:52 AM (#3921276)

I saw that signal for a fastball on the inner half and I got excited. And of course Pedroia hits a rocket just in the reach of Longoria.

Bad pitch call, though.

48. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:54 AM (#3921278)

Hellickson's fastball is hittable when he doesn't have the hitters off-balance, and he's not locating it tremendously well. If I were in a better mood, I'd really be expecting a homer sooner rather than later.

49. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:55 AM (#3921279)

Too bad Ellsbury hadn't stolen second, and wasn't trying to steal 3rd when Pedroia hit that.

Pssst: throw him junk down and outside. He willl swing.

50. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:55 AM (#3921280)

Yeah, Hellickson's fastball is like Buchholz's was when he first came up. He was getting all his outs on off speed pitches and by getting guys off balance, but the straight 89-91 was very hittable.

51. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:56 AM (#3921281)

I sort of called it!

52. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:56 AM (#3921282)

Man, Mikael.

If you were in a better mood you'd be looking like a genius.

53. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:57 AM (#3921283)

We're not losing!!!!!

54. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:57 AM (#3921284)

Also, it was on a changeup.

Weird moment in the stands. Dude catches the ball, immediately hurls the ball back onto the field, then turns around and high-fives a guy in a Sox jersey. I do not understand the combination of events.

55. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:58 AM (#3921285)

Ortiz looks locked in on Hellickson.

56. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:59 AM (#3921286)

I think he was a Rays fan and was being congratulated by his friend for his show of fanhood, despite being on opposite sides.

With all the fun that was, we're still tied and we still have Weiland pitching.

57. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 12:59 AM (#3921287)

That was exactly the pitch Papi wanted, but he couldn't quite put it in the LCF gap. Whoof. Between that and the fastball Pedroia hit to Longoria, this could have been a much bigger inning.

58. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:00 AM (#3921288)

Biggest inning of Kyle Weiland's life here.

59. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:01 AM (#3921289)

Just rewound. The guy was going to give him a high-five for the great catch but the catcher showed him the ball and then threw it back. I think the high five was just because of a very nice catch.

60. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:02 AM (#3921290)

And instead it's Aceves. Tito going with the quick hook.

61. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:03 AM (#3921291)

Damon looks like he's starting his swing when the pitcher winds up. He doesn't look like he can put anything but a fastball in play when he's cheating that badly.

62. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:04 AM (#3921293)

The guy was going to give him a high-five for the great catch but the catcher showed him the ball and then threw it back. I think the high five was just because of a very nice catch.

Yeah, that makes sense.

What I had to remember is that lots of people aren't humongous stressballs like me, and would be just purely happy about catching the ball rather than considering how the events altered the playoff probability for the two clubs.

63. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:04 AM (#3921294)

####.

64. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:05 AM (#3921295)

Seriously? A ####### homer by KOTCHMAN?

65. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:05 AM (#3921296)

The fact that Kotchman has been good this season is so ########.

66. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:05 AM (#3921297)

That's Kotchman's 9th homer of the year. 3 of which are against the Red Sox, as far as I recall.

67. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:07 AM (#3921298)

Aceves basically served that one up on a platter. I wonder if what he gains in velocity, he gives back in location.

68. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:10 AM (#3921300)

Don't worry, that HR doesn't count. MC told me Kotchman's not really good. ;)

Crawford has a 4-game hitting streak. That's precious.

69. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:10 AM (#3921301)

When Crawford is squaring you up, you're probably done for the day. Hellickson's not long for this game.

70. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:10 AM (#3921302)

Gotta get that man home.

Remy's focused on how many changeups the Sox lefties are hitting. It does look like they're sitting changeup quite a bit and trusting in their reflexes to handle the fastball.

71. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:11 AM (#3921303)

The fact that Kotchman has been good this season is so ########.

They do this with at least 1 player every year. We're just lucky he hasn't pulled a full Zobrist.

72. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:11 AM (#3921304)

When did Jed Lowrie last do something right in a baseball game?

73. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:12 AM (#3921305)

Except for Lowrie, who just pops up changes to LF.

74. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:13 AM (#3921306)

This is torture. These hitters look really, really bad.

75. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:13 AM (#3921307)

Two ####### godawful ABs with the RISP.

76. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:16 AM (#3921309)

You know, my family doesn't deserve to deal with someone in the mood I'm about to be in.

77. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:16 AM (#3921310)

Pitiful. I hope these ####### pieces of #### feel as crappy as I do right now. This is going to be a miserable ####### two weeks. Just lose eight in a row and get this misery over with. What a horseshit bunch. This team can't pick each other up to save its life. Gonzalez has the first meaningful hit in a week and the game stays tied for about 3 minutes. I'm so ####### pissed. I give myself to this team day in and day out and they ####### play like this. #### them.

78. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:17 AM (#3921311)

I'm a bit irritated.

79. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:18 AM (#3921312)

Jose, is there anything sharp near you?

80. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:18 AM (#3921313)

It depresses me to think about how much better Jennings is than Crawford.

81. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:19 AM (#3921315)

Where the heck was Pedroia playing? Where's the cutoff? Who's covering 2nd? What is Reddick doing?

What ever happened to JD Drew?

82. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:19 AM (#3921316)

Reddick goes for the same stupid hero throw as Crawford. God this is awful.

I really don't like the fully pulled in infield with runners on second and third.

83. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:20 AM (#3921317)

It depresses me to think about how much better Jennings is than Crawford.

Why? Why would Crawford be better? Jennings is someone the Rays brought up from the minors. Therefore, he is superstud.

84. Darren

Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:21 AM (#3921318)

And the correlary to that: Crawford is a big-money FA signing of the Sox, so he's going to suck.

85. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:23 AM (#3921319)

Also, Reddick's throw was pretty good. It's not like it was too high to be cut off. That's on whoever was supposed to cut that off more than him, unlike Crawford's huge arcing throw to third.

86. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:25 AM (#3921320)

big-money FA signing of the Sox, so he's going to suck.

It's ####### mind blowing. There is a reasonable range of results for every player. Somehow, every guy we sign is like a thousand times worse than his worst projection. No reasonable prediction for Crawford would have been "replacement level" but no, that's exactly what he is, #### him.

I apologize now for the last couple of posts and the next few. I'm pissed and I need to vent.

87. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:25 AM (#3921321)

Hey, another shitty 0-2 pitch.

88. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:25 AM (#3921322)

And the correlary to that: Crawford is a big-money FA signing of the Sox, so he's going to suck.

What the hell is the deal with that, by the way? Why can't Theo Epstein sign a free agent who's actually good?

89. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:27 AM (#3921323)

I really don't think you can blame Theo for Carl Crawford forgetting how to play baseball. It'd be one thing if he was just not hitting, but he isn't hitting, isn't walking, isn't stealing bases, isn't taking the extra base, isn't throwing to the cutoff man, isn't fielding well. He's a guy who was a 4 or 5 tool player who now appears to have no tools.

90. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:28 AM (#3921324)

I mean really, this is the anti-2007 team. In 2007 the Sox picked each other up in ways I've never seen before. Pedroia sucks, Alex Cora hits .380, Josh Beckett gets hurt, Kason Gabbard pitches a shut out. This group? These guys find a way to lose regularly.

If there is an ounce of professional pride in these guys they'll allow everyone in New England to kick them in the nuts twice during the off-season. The only good news is that at least I have a deposit on next year's tickets. This team has more talent than any team in baseball and they are going to finish the year with four months of .500 baseball wrapped around two great months. Two great months from a team with four legitimate MVP caliber stars, two guys having borderline Cy Young seasons and a closer having a great season.

91. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:28 AM (#3921325)

I mean even if Crawford's offense had been this bad, which was completely out of no where, you'd at least expect him to produce a win on the base paths, and 1-2 wins with his glove. Instead he's not doing anything in any facet of the game. It's just completely mind blowing.

92. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:30 AM (#3921326)

There is a better chance we make nine consecutive outs than there is that we come back and win this game. I was at 19-8 and stayed through the end, I went the next night and was on my feet for the ninth and this may feel worse.

93. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:31 AM (#3921327)

I should add in that the team seems to have found the catcher for the next few years too. I can't remember being as wrong about a player as I was about Jarrod Saltalamacchia. And still this crap.

94. Dan Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:31 AM (#3921328)

Salty just swung through 3 fastballs down the middle.

95. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:31 AM (#3921329)

I really don't think you can blame Theo for Carl Crawford forgetting how to play baseball.

If we can't blame Theo Epstein for that, how can we judge anything that a general manager does?

And it's not just Crawford. It's Lackey and Matsuzaka and Lugo and Clement and Renteria. JD Drew is by far his most successful big-money free agent signing. Jason Varitek is second. Third is, what, David Wells? It's an awful, awful record that I don't understand at all.

96. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:32 AM (#3921330)

Look, I'm too wrapped up, I get it, I care more than these guys but jesus ####### Christ, I'm not asking for brilliance, I'm asking for a modest level of competence.

97. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:33 AM (#3921331)

The Red Sox are currently 85-59, third best in all of baseball. If they lose tonight, they'll be 85-60, third best in all of baseball.

98. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:34 AM (#3921332)

If we can't blame Theo Epstein for that, how can we judge anything that a general manager does?

But is it fair to blame him for that? Is there any reasonable way to have predicted this? What possible way could he have had to know that Carl Crawford was going to turn into Damon Buford.

Actually, that's not fair, Buford had a decent glove.

99. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:35 AM (#3921334)

The Red Sox are currently 85-59, third best in all of baseball. If they lose tonight, they'll be 85-60, third best in all of baseball.

Yup, and sinking like the Titanic. You know the math, you know the numbers, and I'll tell you now that I don't need odds. $25 sponsorship, I got Tampa, you got Boston making the playoffs.

100. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 11, 2011 at 01:35 AM (#3921335)

But is it fair to blame him for that? Is there any reasonable way to have predicted this?

There's no reasonable way to project that any amateur player will turn into a good major leaguer, but we give credit to Theo for Papelbon and Ellsbury and Pedroia. It works both ways.

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