Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Game Chatter > Discussion
Game Chatter
— Where Thinking Fans Discuss Today's Games

Saturday, September 24, 2011

RedSox (88-68) @ Yankees (95-61), Saturday, September 24, 2011, 4:10pm

BOS: Jon Lester (27, LHP, 15-8, 3.15)
NYY: Freddy Garcia (34, RHP, 11-8, 3.77)

The Primer Chimp Posted: September 24, 2011 at 01:00 PM | 226 comment(s)
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 2 of 3 pages  < 1 2 3 > 
   101. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:10 PM (#3935160)
Even if the Sox make the playoffs, I think Ellsbury is losing votes.
Luckily, this won't matter because Justin Verlander is winning the large majority of 1st place votes. It's his award, the thing's over.
   102. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:10 PM (#3935161)
You know, I'm generally not much for this kind of thing, but assuming they don't come back today, it might be time for Tito to close the door after the game and go on a bat-####, profanity-filled, chair-throwing tirade at the entire team.
   103. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:11 PM (#3935162)
I do agree that if the Sox miss the playoffs - or even if they manage somehow to stumble home - Ellsbury will get fewer votes than he would have if the team had played well down the stretch. And that's really too bad, because Jacoby Ellsbury has been the only person on this entire club playing good baseball every night in September.
   104. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:12 PM (#3935164)
I'd say Montero is the man, but don't want to ignore his divine nature.
   105. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:14 PM (#3935165)
Lester really had to stay out there for six today. The bullpen has to be ready to throw 10-12 innings tomorrow, and now they have to cover six today. Embarrassingly #### performance by Lester.
   106. Jay Seaver Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:14 PM (#3935166)
Damn it. This is just horrible.

2.2IP for Lester the day before a doubleheader. Just... There is nothing good about this team but Ellsbury now.
   107. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:15 PM (#3935168)
I'd leave Atchison out there until his arm literally detaches from the socket.
   108. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:16 PM (#3935169)
Two Thoughts on Atchison:

(1) It seems like he's pitching every time I turn on a Red Sox game, which is not good for them
(2) I can't believe he's only 35, since he looks older than my Dad. It appears he never appeared in the Majors 2008-2009, did he spend that time doing heroin or what?
   109. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:16 PM (#3935170)
I turned the tv off before the Jeter homer. I think I have sufficiently vented now, and I'm going to go and run my errands. Have a good night y'all. Have a good drunk.
   110. Darren Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:18 PM (#3935172)
hey, what'd I miss? :)

Is there any chance that the Sox make the playoffs and Francona gets fired?
   111. Darren Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:18 PM (#3935175)
And in addition to the terrible defense and pitching, the hitters are making Garcia look amazing.
   112. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:19 PM (#3935176)
I can't believe he's only 35, since he looks older than my Dad. It appears he never appeared in the Majors 2008-2009, did he spend that time doing heroin or what?


He was in Japan. The story is that he came to the Sox' system largely because his sick daughter was best served by some of the hospitals in Boston. There were a few of those stories early last year when he came up.
   113. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:19 PM (#3935177)
Did McCarver call the Moneyball book a novel?
   114. Darren Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:20 PM (#3935178)
@108--he was in Japan and doing quite well.
   115. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:20 PM (#3935179)
Is there any chance that the Sox make the playoffs and Francona gets fired?
If they back into the playoffs and then three-and-out vs the Rangers, I think it's at least possible. If they miss the playoffs, I'll be shocked if he stays on.
   116. Darren Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:21 PM (#3935181)
Is there any chance at all that Theo gets fired? Cause, you know, there should be.
   117. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:22 PM (#3935182)
s there any chance that the Sox make the playoffs and Francona gets fired?


I think there is. Someone mentioned it above, if they back in and get destroyed 3 and out I think that'll happen.

I still think he's an excellent manager but I also think it is time for him to go. I think it's become obvious that his communication has completely broken down here. Ion the same idea of letting a player go a year early rather than a year late I think the Sox may be well served to move on here.
   118. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:23 PM (#3935183)
[Would they go after CJ Wilson?

/quote]

Thanks to the monumentally stupid idea of a 1 game playoff, CJ wilson will get 20mill a year next year from either the Red Sox or Yanks. He might of anyway.

While I was out buying gas for the mower, I was thinking "They need to pull Lester and save him for a short-rest start in BALT. But Tito will never think of that." Thank you Yanks for tacking on two more so Teets had little to no choice.
   119. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:23 PM (#3935184)
McCarver is just painful to listen to. The reason the Yankees might win 100 games but are having trouble finding a third starter is that Colon and Garcia have been really good all year but both have struggled a bunch lately. This is not that hard, Tim.
   120. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:26 PM (#3935187)
The Rays just don't deserve it. Their offense is terrible. They should be playing for the tie today. They really blew it.
   121. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:27 PM (#3935189)
If the Red Sox can't even win games like Lester-Garcia match ups, then the Rays hardly deserve it any less.

But yeah, if they'd won a couple more games over the last week they'd be in the driver's seat right now.
   122. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:27 PM (#3935190)
The Rays just don't deserve it. Their offense is terrible. They should be playing for the tie today. They really blew it.


Does any AL team deserve it? As much as the Rays should be playing for a tie the Sox should be playing for the division this weekend.
   123. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:28 PM (#3935192)
He was in Japan. The story is that he came to the Sox' system largely because his sick daughter was best served by some of the hospitals in Boston. There were a few of those stories early last year when he came up.
Interesting, now that you say that I remember reading those stories. That's a nice thing. Although I stand by my statement that he looks 50-years old, I would imagine having a sick child probably doesn't keep you looking young.
   124. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:28 PM (#3935194)
In an attempt to say something positive, this is so far boding well for Atchison to at least get them through the 6th.
   125. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:29 PM (#3935195)
But don't worry folks!! we have a scintilatting Rays-Red Sox WC elimination cage death match coming from Fenway in a week!!!

(Posted from 2012)
   126. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:29 PM (#3935196)
Firing the most successful manager in modern Red Sox history would seem like a rash move, but since I don't have their best interests at heart, go right ahead.
   127. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:31 PM (#3935198)
In a few days the Sox will back into the playoffs and everyone's record goes to 0-0.

Anything can happen in October.
   128. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:31 PM (#3935200)
At SBNation, some writer I hadn't heard of posted earlier, "Red Sox must see this upcoming NY series as an oasis." I would have written Rob Neyer to ask that only writers who know anything about the Sox should be allowed to write about them.....except I don't have Neyer's e-mail.
   129. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:32 PM (#3935201)
Firing the most successful manager in modern Red Sox history would seem like a rash move, but since I don't have their best interests at heart, go right ahead.


Sox Therapudians will tell you I'm the biggest Tito backer going. Just because Tito was great for many years does not mean he remains the right man for this job. Carlton Fisk is the best catcher the club has ever had but I'd rather have Saltalamacchia out there in 2012. If, as appears, Tito has lost his ability to communicate with this group, then it is time for him to go.

I have the same "fear" you have, that firing him will be a mistake borne of rashness and frustration and will prove to be a mistake. I think there is a strong argument in favor of it though.
   130. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:32 PM (#3935202)
RB, we need to pick a celebratory steakhouse should the Yanks do it again.
   131. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:33 PM (#3935203)
Firing the most successful manager in modern Red Sox history would seem like a rash move, but since I don't have their best interests at heart, go right ahead.


Joe Torre says 'Hi', and enquires as to the health of your loved ones.
   132. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:34 PM (#3935204)
I have the same "fear" you have, that firing him will be a mistake borne of rashness and frustration and will prove to be a mistake. I think there is a strong argument in favor of it though.


Sox have started out poorly the last few years. Given the strength of the upcoming April 2012, I would rather fire/not exercise his option now...then lose an entire month in 2012.
   133. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:35 PM (#3935206)
Firing the most successful manager in modern Red Sox history would seem like a rash move, but since I don't have their best interests at heart, go right ahead.


Did the Yankees regret letting Torre go? He won four championships to Francona's two, even.

Everyone has an expiration date. Francona seems past his. The Yankees made the mistake of keeping Torre a few years past his.

It especially seems to be an issue for "players' managers" like these guys. At some point, they're got too many of "their guys" on the team, and they become more of a friend and a peer to the players than a leader. That appears to be the issue in Boston right now to me.
   134. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:37 PM (#3935207)
RB, we need to pick a celebratory steakhouse should the Yanks do it again.
I thought we had a standing policy for NYY Steak in the case of titles. But I'm certainly flexible, I want to do Palm at some point, so we should get the Carnivore Four there this winter.
   135. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:37 PM (#3935208)
Sox have started out poorly the last few years. Given the strength of the upcoming April 2012, I would rather fire/not exercise his option now...then lose an entire month in 2012.


I agree that if they are going to have him on any kind of leash next year they should just boot him. One of the things I thought Duquette flubbed was bringing Williams back for 2001 as an effectively lame duck skipper. If they bring him back they need to make it clear that he's got a couple of years, if they bring him back with the edict "start badly and you're gone" they should, both as a decency issue and for the good of the team, just part ways this winter.
   136. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:39 PM (#3935209)
Crawford up again with runners on.
   137. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:40 PM (#3935212)
Crawford batting 2nd has killed whatever offense we've had today too, for an additional kick in the balls.
   138. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:43 PM (#3935215)
Aceves not following orders blew the game two night ago.


What's the story here?
   139. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:44 PM (#3935217)
Yanks gave Torre 12 years, including 7 since last WS win.
   140. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:45 PM (#3935218)
You don't think they should have cut the cord on Torre earlier?

He also made the playoffs every single season. If the Red Sox miss the playoffs this year, it will be the 3rd time in 8 seasons Francona has missed the playoffs. And this team hasn't won a playoff game since 2008.
   141. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:46 PM (#3935219)
If Francona goes, how many of the last few years will those around here decide that he was past his prime? Three full?
   142. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:47 PM (#3935221)
Does any AL team deserve it?

Yes: the Oakland Athletics are very polite and punctual, and they are kind to small children and animals.
   143. Scoriano Flitcraft Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:49 PM (#3935222)
I thought we had a standing policy for NYY Steak in the case of titles. But I'm certainly flexible, I want to do Palm at some point, so we should get the Carnivore Four there this winter.


That is a fine policy.

Always happy to do the Palm. My favorite chain.
   144. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:51 PM (#3935225)
One thing is true: You can't blame Francona for all this.

It should be patently impossible for a manager to give up 3 runs or more in the first three innings of 21 of the last 23 games. (Or whatever the hell stat I'm taking a stab at)

It should be impossible for players to do it.
   145. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:51 PM (#3935226)
My dishes are done.

Watching that liner go into the stands reminded me of one thing. My team may suck, but at least their stadium doesn't feature a moat protecting the hedge fund ubermen from interacting with commoners.
   146. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:52 PM (#3935228)
If Francona goes, how many of the last few years will those around here decide that he was past his prime? Three full?


I think he did as good a job last year as he's done a bad job this year. Hmmm...that reads badly but I think you know what I mean. I think that gives some credence to Dan's earlier point about having too many of "his guys."

Today is a great example of why he needs to go and why he shouldn't be blamed. Yes, there have been mistakes made that are all too common. However, this supposedly potent offense is being shut down and his "Ace" starting pitcher completely #### the bed. I mean, yeah, maybe the Yankees got extra outs but great pitchers get guys out after errors/misplays. Instead, Lester gives up a game ending 3 run homer.

I don't think it's as easy to simply blame Tito as others do.
   147. aleskel Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:53 PM (#3935229)
My team may suck, but at least their stadium doesn't feature a moat protecting the hedge fund ubermen from interacting with commoners.

Yes, with ticket prices at Fenway what they are, the hedge fund ubermen can feel secure knowing that they have 80% of the park to themselves.
   148. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:53 PM (#3935230)
Always happy to do the Palm. My favorite chain.
Excellent. We'll see how the playoffs go and then we can start making plans.
   149. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:53 PM (#3935231)
Yes: the Oakland Athletics are very polite and punctual, and they are kind to small children and animals.


We have a nomination for the Oakland Athletics as the AL Wild Card. Do we have a second?
   150. boteman is not here 'til October Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:57 PM (#3935233)
Maybe the BBWAA should vote for the new wild card rather than hold a 1-game playoff?
   151. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:59 PM (#3935234)
Here's the thing with this team though (to me anyway): if they can still somehow stumble into the playoffs, they've got so much talent that they are still very dangerous, and I would not be surprised to see them win a playoff series or two or even the whole thing.
   152. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 09:59 PM (#3935235)
I think it's hilarious that John Farrell has done more for the Sox in September than the Sox have done for themselves.
   153. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:01 PM (#3935237)
Here's the thing with this team though (to me anyway): if they can still somehow stumble into the playoffs, they've got so much talent that they are still very dangerous, and I would not be surprised to see them win a playoff series or two or even the whole thing.


I felt that way until today. If Lester can't take the mound without vomiting all over himself I don't think it matters if this team makes the playoffs. Between his start today and Beckett's on Wednesday, I think this argument is getting weaker. I'm even tempted to root for the Rays to make it since they'll at least take a good fight to Detroit.
   154. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:01 PM (#3935238)
Yes, with ticket prices at Fenway what they are, the hedge fund ubermen can feel secure knowing that they have 80% of the park to themselves


Oh pish, I could have had a Monster Seat for $200 the other day...if the Sox ended in Fenway this year, I could have one for $5.55
   155. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:02 PM (#3935240)
Here's the thing with this team though (to me anyway): if they can still somehow stumble into the playoffs, they've got so much talent that they are still very dangerous, and I would not be surprised to see them win a playoff series or two or even the whole thing.


The only thing keeping me even close to sane during this mess has been this thought. I don't know if I believe that anymore.

It's one thing to slump for awhile but this is beyond a slump. If this team truly were even close to as good as we think/thought it is/was then they should have snapped out of this. They look completely inept right now and even the guys you would expect to help (Lester, Beckett) are not getting the job done. Any hope for a post-season run akin to the 2000 Yankees/2006 Cards is built on those guys and they are not pitching well.
   156. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:05 PM (#3935242)
If this team truly were even close to as good as we think/thought it is/was then they should have snapped out of this.
I actually disagree with this. I don't think this is really about the talent level.

The bad pitching from the back of the rotation is about the talent level, but the errors and the mental mistakes are about something distinct from talent. If they can somehow back into the playoffs, and somehow get mentally right, they are an extremely talented club that would be among the four favorites to win the World Series.
   157. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:07 PM (#3935243)
What's the worst September record for a team that went on to win the World Series? The 2000 Yankees were 13-17, which the Red Sox are looking unlikely to better. But I don't know who else is a contender for the title.
   158. boteman is not here 'til October Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:08 PM (#3935245)
There's the adage that amateurs practice until they get it right, professionals practice until they can't do it wrong. What went wrong with the Sox?

Even Ellsbury ran into the third out the other day, inexplicably. Whatever it is, it's contagious.
   159. aleskel Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:08 PM (#3935246)
this Montero kid can hit
   160. Jay Seaver Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:08 PM (#3935247)
-- sigh --

I was really hoping for a bit more from Tazawa in his call-up, even considering he was coming off surgery.
   161. NJ in DC (Now unemployed!) Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:09 PM (#3935248)
I love Him so much.
   162. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:11 PM (#3935249)
He's such a hitter. This must've been what it was like to watch Pujols when he was first called up.

He could use a little more loft on his batted ball trajectories, but He makes such solid contact.
   163. nick swisher hygiene Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:11 PM (#3935250)
104--Behold the man!
   164. Mayor Blomberg Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:12 PM (#3935251)
RB - the worst Sept by a WS winner was the 2000 NYY.
   165. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:12 PM (#3935252)
If this team truly were even close to as good as we think/thought it is/was then they should have snapped out of this.
That's a completely subjective statement, though. You might be right -- it's probably more likely that you're right -- but it's still just a guess.

Reset to zero in a playoff series and youneverknow.
   166. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:13 PM (#3935253)
Looks like the haters may have been wrong on Montero, too.
   167. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:14 PM (#3935254)
That's a completely subjective statement, though. You might be right -- it's probably more likely that you're right -- but it's still just a guess.

Reset to zero in a playoff series and youneverknow.


I don't dispute any of what you say. If they are playing baseball on Friday (assuming it's not game two of the three team playoff) I'll be pretty fired up and believing they are going to get hot.

But man it's hard to envision that right now.
   168. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:15 PM (#3935255)
Looks like the haters may have been wrong on Montero, too.


Has anyone ever questioned Montero's bat? Seems to me the question is whether he can play a position.

More importantly, 15 games proves nothing. He could be 0 for 60 and we wouldn't know a damned thing.
   169. Darren Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:17 PM (#3935256)
I like that Montero has followed the Yankee prospect pattern of dominating in the Majors after sucking in the minors. That's always fun.
   170. Darren Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:19 PM (#3935257)

Looks like the haters may have been wrong on Montero, too.


I give you credit. It must be hard to feel like a victim as a Yankee fan, but you manage.
   171. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:20 PM (#3935258)
RB - the worst Sept by a WS winner was the 2000 NYY.
Well, there you go. Of course, from mid-September, the Yankees looked every bit as bad as the Red Sox do now. They went 3-14 to end the year.
   172. Swedish Chef Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:21 PM (#3935259)
More importantly, 15 games proves nothing. He could be 0 for 60 and we wouldn't know a damned thing.

You can get lucky with the BA, but not the ISO...
   173. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:22 PM (#3935260)
Well, there you go. Of course, from mid-September, the Yankees looked every bit as bad as the Red Sox do now. They went 3-14 to end the year.


This team will be staring at a 5-17 month after losing today.

They have not won 2 consecutive games in exactly 4 weeks (August 27th DH against the A's).
   174. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:23 PM (#3935261)
I mean think about it: This team has had a month that would've embarrassed the 2003 Tigers. They have literally been that bad.
   175. Jay Seaver Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:24 PM (#3935262)
A run! I'm so excited!
   176. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:24 PM (#3935264)
Who were they booing?
   177. nick swisher hygiene Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:26 PM (#3935265)
Looks like the haters may have been wrong on Montero, too.



I give you credit. It must be hard to feel like a victim as a Yankee fan, but you manage.



What's with the "victim" nonsense?

Let me translate for you what the man was saying:

#### the h8rs.
   178. Darren Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:29 PM (#3935266)
All those haters. Both of them.
   179. Dale Sams Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:29 PM (#3935267)
Reset to zero in a playoff series and youneverknow.


I thought they would at least 'reset to a .500 team' every time they get a day off, and they 'reset to the beginning of the year.'
   180. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:29 PM (#3935268)
Since I generally don't have much nice to see about MLB, I will say I think these ads where they intercut footage of the this year's Brewers/Diamondbacks/whatever with footage from the last really good version of that team are excellent.
   181. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:29 PM (#3935269)
What haters? Seriously, is anyone saying Jesus Montero isn't capable of being a great hitter? And, if they are, who the hell cares?

The Patriots turned this into an art form around here. Constantly inventing "us against the world" situations and I never understood it. Really, so someone thinks some player isn't going to be good, who cares?
   182. aleskel Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:30 PM (#3935271)
seriously? mix and match now?
   183. Jay Seaver Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:30 PM (#3935272)
Innings like this are an argument against September call-ups.
   184. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:30 PM (#3935273)
April    3    13    0.188
July    6    23    0.207
September Sox    5    17    0.227
August    8    26    0.235
September    6    18    0.250
June    8    23    0.258
May    9    17    0.346 


Months in order of crappiness. One is the current Sox after today's loss, the other six months belong to the 1962 Mets.
   185. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:31 PM (#3935274)
April    3    13    0.188
July    6    23    0.207
SeptSox    5    17    0.227
August    8    26    0.235
Sept    6    18    0.250
June    8    23    0.258
May    9    17    0.346 


Hopefully with better coding
   186. Swedish Chef Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:31 PM (#3935275)
Did the Yankees invite La Russa as today's celebrity guest manager?
   187. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:34 PM (#3935277)
It's not just the results, its the WAY Montero hits - he gets hits off of lots of different pitches, makes solid contact, shows command of the zone. It's not like watching a Good Month From Jeff Francoeur (TM). There was a bit of that with Cano - when he showed up and started hitting, people pointed to some of his MiLB stats and it was like, "Yes, this is a good point, but line drive doubles to the opposite field, over and over."
   188. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:34 PM (#3935278)
I like that Montero has followed the Yankee prospect pattern of dominating in the Majors after sucking in the minors. That's always fun.


Struggling this season <> sucking in the minors. He's been an excellent hitter every other year even ignoring age, and it's not like scouts ever doubted his bat.
   189. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:38 PM (#3935282)
re: Montero, I recall a fair amount of "over-rated" directed his way, not all of it confined to the absurd proposition that at age 21 we can rule him out as a MLB catcher.
   190. Swedish Chef Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:38 PM (#3935283)
What are the odds that Montero hits a triple?
   191. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:41 PM (#3935284)
re: Montero, I recall a fair amount of "over-rated" directed his way, not all of it confined to the absurd proposition that at age 21 we can rule him out as a MLB catcher.


Some of the hype went off the charts. I think just about every top ten prospect gets overrated to a degree. The ruling him out as a catcher stuff has always been asinine, I'd never argue that point. If this kid hits anything like he's supposed to how bad can he be as a catcher before he offsets that? I don't think it's possible to be that bad.
   192. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:43 PM (#3935285)
Put another way, just as saying Montero "can't" catch is dumb I think it's equally silly to say with any certainty that he will be Albert Pujols with the bat. With any prospect I think anything beyond "he could be a superstar" is too far.
   193. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:43 PM (#3935286)
Considering how many chances a C gets with a live ball, I suspect that disastrous C play could outweigh good hitting.
   194. Darren Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:43 PM (#3935287)
re: Montero, I recall a fair amount of "over-rated" directed his way, not all of it confined to the absurd proposition that at age 21 we can rule him out as a MLB catcher.


He's certainly proved all those haters who didn't think he could catch wrong.
   195. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:44 PM (#3935288)
190...the way you're all talking about him, he was born on third base.
   196. boteman is not here 'til October Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:44 PM (#3935289)
What are the odds that Montero hits a triple?

I've never understood the gripe against "He's a triple shy of the cycle" or similar. So somebody says that, what's the big deal? If he hits it, great, if not, he still has 3 other hits, 2 of which are XBH. Not too shabby anyway.
   197. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:45 PM (#3935290)
Part of this is absolutely the scoreboard. But there are a few players in the game, when they hit the ball that Crawford did for a double, that are a baserunning event. I've seen Crawford be one of those guys in years past, Gardner is one of those guys, as is Ellsbury. When Carl hit that one, it was so much of an assumed double that the live camera never even went to him as a baserunner.
   198. Dan Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:48 PM (#3935292)
Considering how many chances a C gets with a live ball, I suspect that disastrous C play could outweigh good hitting.


That pitch framing article really underscored this point. Every lost called strike is apparently worth 0.013 runs or something like that.
   199. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:49 PM (#3935293)
I've never understood the gripe against "He's a triple shy of the cycle" or similar. So somebody says that, what's the big deal? If he hits it, great, if not, he still has 3 other hits, 2 of which are XBH. Not too shabby anyway.


I've been lucky enough to attend a few dozen MLB games in my life. It's a completely different level of "I was there" to say "I was there when Montero hit for the cycle" than "I was there when Montero had two extra-base hits".

Or are you one of those who would rather see a good Game Score than a no-hitter?
   200. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: September 24, 2011 at 10:50 PM (#3935295)
Considering how many chances a C gets with a live ball, I suspect that disastrous C play could outweigh good hitting.


But what's the tipping point? I'm not asking for an answer now, just thinking out loud a bit. The great majority of balls a catcher has to field are easy and with no one on base other than the odd foul pop (about 25 a year I'll guess?) there is almost no risk.

I've seen Crawford be one of those guys in years past, Gardner is one of those guys, as is Ellsbury. When Carl hit that one, it was so much of an assumed double that the live camera never even went to him as a baserunner.


This is the most disappointing thing about his season. Even when he's played well (and his numbers the last month and a half aren't bad) he's never shown that "wow!" factor that he had in Tampa.
Page 2 of 3 pages  < 1 2 3 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Jim Wisinski
for his generous support.

Hot Topics

Tigers (12-9) @ Twins (12-11), Sunday, April 27, 2014, 2:10pm
(1 - 8:19pm, May 30)
Last: Barry`s_Lazy_Boy

Yankees (12-8) @ Red Sox (9-12), Wednesday, April 23, 2014, 7:10pm
(3 - 8:14pm, Apr 23)
Last: simon bedford

Cardinals (7-5) @ Brewers (10-2), Monday, April 14, 2014, 8:10pm
(1 - 7:56pm, Apr 14)
Last: cardsfanboy

Athletics (4-3) @ Twins (3-4), Wednesday, April 9, 2014, 1:10pm
(1 - 4:02pm, Apr 09)
Last: LargeBill

Braves (2-1) @ Nationals (3-0), Friday, April 4, 2014, 1:05pm
(3 - 11:46am, Apr 06)
Last: Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick.

Reds (1-3) @ Mets (1-3), Saturday, April 5, 2014, 1:10pm
(1 - 4:02pm, Apr 05)
Last: A Dying Soul

Phillies (1-2) @ Cubs (1-2), Friday, April 4, 2014, 2:20pm
(1 - 4:41pm, Apr 04)
Last: SteveM.

Yankees (85-77) @ RedSox (97-65), Thursday, March 20, 2014, 7:05pm
(1 - 7:15pm, Mar 20)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

RedSox (97-65) @ Yankees (85-77), Tuesday, March 18, 2014, 1:05pm
(2 - 2:19pm, Mar 18)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

Cardinals (97-65) @ RedSox (97-65), Wednesday, October 30, 2013, 7:30pm
(1 - 8:10pm, Dec 27)
Last: tfbg9

Cardinals (97-65) @ RedSox (97-65), Wednesday, October 23, 2013, 7:30pm
(1 - 8:55pm, Oct 23)
Last: Paul D(uda)

Dodgers (92-70) @ Cardinals (97-65), Friday, October 11, 2013, 8:30pm
(1 - 6:03pm, Oct 11)
Last: Gamingboy

Pirates (94-68) @ Cardinals (97-65), Wednesday, October 9, 2013, 8:00pm
(1 - 1:08pm, Oct 09)
Last: tfbg9

Athletics (96-66) @ Tigers (93-69), Monday, October 7, 2013, 1:00pm
(1 - 10:07pm, Oct 07)
Last: Buzzards Bay

Athletics (93-63) @ Angels (76-79), Monday, September 23, 2013, 10:05pm
(1 - 3:09am, Sep 24)
Last: Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim

Page rendered in 0.6866 seconds
50 querie(s) executed

Page rendered in 0.6866 seconds
50 querie(s) executed