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   1. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 10:32 AM (#5334613)
I also like tonight starts earlier.
   2. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 10:38 AM (#5334619)
Is there NO chance Joe convinces Jake to throw to the Cubs best option behind the plate?

Because I'd far rather see Contreras catch and if we're going to sit Heyward again, let Soler have the PAs too.
   3. Scott Lange Posted: October 26, 2016 at 10:42 AM (#5334627)
Definitely one of the least discouraging blowout losses I can recall suffering, for all the reasons you cite. If Arrieta has his command tonight, I think we're still in great shape.
   4. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 10:46 AM (#5334632)
I make fun of Jake for needing to throw to Montero, but I'm not pushing that issue in the World Series. If Joe really wanted to do that, he could have made it happen through the end of the season, but once he gave in, it was done.

I really don't want to see Soler in the OF, and he barely has any ABs lately. Plus, it's probably just too cold for him.
   5. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 10:49 AM (#5334636)
Small thing considering the off days and the fact that "this is it" -- but I also liked Joe sticking with Grimm as long as he did, even though it sorta, kinda led to the game getting out of hand.

It's probably meaningless, but I feel like nearly 50 pitches out of your hands down best reliever and a wasted sneak peak at the closer in a 6 run game is the sort of thing you'd find on the losing side of a 6-0 game, not the winning side.

I'm sticking with Cubs in 5.
   6. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 10:52 AM (#5334639)
So everyone on ESPN has decided Perez is the new Yadi? WTF.
   7. Andere Richtingen Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:08 PM (#5334693)
Agree with virtually all Moses said. I was disappointed to see the eighth inning home run, but prior to that I really felt like the Cubs were still in the game, despite the terrific pitching they were up against. I definitely feel better being down 1-0 here than I did last year down 1-0 in the NLCS.

I am glad to see Schwarber looking good at the plate, but I am also unnerved by how achy-breaky he looks running.

I'm less bothered by Montero being Arrieta's caddy here; I'd like to see Contreras in the lineup somewhere, but it doesn't have to be behind the plate. As Moses mentioned, Contreras can start in LF. I am okay with Montero catching tonight because whatever might make Arrieta feel good is fine with me, and also because I think the ballpark suits Montero's exaggerated pull swing. Coghlan is available to sub for Contreras late.
   8. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:10 PM (#5334696)
I am glad to see Schwarber looking good at the plate, but I am also unnerved by how achy-breaky he looks running.


Meh, he always looks that way...
   9. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:12 PM (#5334698)
I am also unnerved by how achy-breaky he looks running.

He kind of looked like he was running in a sausage race, except he wasn't wearing a sausage costume.
   10. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:14 PM (#5334701)
Was it Maddux who was the first to really assert the "I get to throw to a Personal Catcher (tm) who can't hit at all" business? Seems like that could be a ripe area to wring some irrational inefficiency out of the system.
   11. SouthSideRyan Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:18 PM (#5334707)
2nd half Montero was a perfectly cromulent hitter.
   12. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:23 PM (#5334709)
Last night, I think Smoltz went a little far in mourning the loss of guys like Ross. I don't think he's a dying breed, and if anything, the fact that the Cubs have gone with 3 catchers for 2 seasons now might lead to some teams copying them. They'll have to start playing catching prospects in the minors, but I think we'll see more of it.

Ross hits fine against lefties, and is good defensively, so he's not just a blanket. Montero this year is just a blanket; he hit a little better down the stretch, but I'm still not comfortable with him hitting, and he couldn't throw out Schwarber trying to steal. He's a very expensive blanket. I'm sure both guys are helping Contreras learn to be a catcher, but at some point, Arrieta and Lester are going to have to learn to throw to Contreras.
   13. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:26 PM (#5334711)
2nd half Montero was a perfectly cromulent hitter.

True enough - .235/.339/.373 in 118PAs; even better if you just look at Sept (51PAs): .283/.353/.543. It's just he's still inferior to Contreras - offensively and defensively - and he's so slow, that it hurts seeing him out there more than it should. Without Contreras around, the Cubs would still have a decent catcher platoon situation, it's just not as good as Contreras.
   14. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:28 PM (#5334714)
I really don't get why the veterans - well, at least Arrieta (and to some extent, Jon) don't like throwing to Contreras.

He's clearly able to gameplan well with Hendricks - who has lesser stuff than Jake, in a vacuum. He's great defensively, and statcast already says he's a net plus with pitch framing (not a Grandal or Montero -- yet, but we're talking about a rookie who has a grand total of 267 GS at catcher at all levels in his pro career).

Fine, fine -- everybody gets to keep their personal catcher for the remaining games this year... but come spring next year, EVERYBODY better be prepared to have WillCon catching.
   15. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:29 PM (#5334716)
Was it Maddux who was the first to really assert the "I get to throw to a Personal Catcher (tm) who can't hit at all" business? Seems like that could be a ripe area to wring some irrational inefficiency out of the system.


I don't remember anyone before him, at least in my time as a baseball fan. I don't like it, other than in special circumstances. I can see it in the case of a knuckleballer, who is tough to catch, or pairing your best throwing catcher if your starter steadfastly refuses to make pickoff throws.
   16. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:30 PM (#5334717)
Last night, I think Smoltz went a little far in mourning the loss of guys like Ross. I don't think he's a dying breed, and if anything, the fact that the Cubs have gone with 3 catchers for 2 seasons now might lead to some teams copying them. They'll have to start playing catching prospects in the minors, but I think we'll see more of it.


Agreed.

As I noted in the chatter -- Ross has 10.1 WAR and even 1.9 WAA over his entire 15 (technically 14, since his first year was just a cup of coffee) career. For a backup catcher - something every team is going to continue to carry? Nobody turns their nose up at that*.

*well, except all of us when he signed :-)
   17. Meatwad in mourning Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:32 PM (#5334718)
I thought the zone sucked last night but if you cant score any runs it doesnt really matter. However its 1 game I feel confident the cubs will win in the end.
   18. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:42 PM (#5334729)
I don't remember anyone before him, at least in my time as a baseball fan.


Steve Carlton and Tim McCarver in the 70's.
   19. Andere Richtingen Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:42 PM (#5334730)
I actually thought the home plate calls were okay last night. Lester was just missing, but he was missing, while Kubler was hitting the edges and corners consistently. Seemed like a normal amount of missed close calls to me. The problem was that Lester threw a lot of pitches that weren't strikes but could have been called strikes, and of course, we wish they had been called strikes. It happens.
   20. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 12:56 PM (#5334747)
I agree with Andere. I don't know if Fox's kzone isn't accurate, but for any pitch they showed, the ump was essentially right; maybe a couple of Kluber calls were just next to the edge, but I have no problem with that being a strike and I can't recall any egregious strike calls for him like one Lester got to K Napoli, I wanna say. Lester maybe could have gotten a few more calls, but nothing that should have been a strike was called a ball, IMO.
   21. TomH Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:02 PM (#5334756)
If the Cubs had won game 1, they would be prohibitive (3-1 at least) WS favs this morning. Now it's close to a toss-up, methinks.
   22. Kiko Sakata Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:03 PM (#5334758)
I am okay with Montero catching tonight because whatever might make Arrieta feel good is fine with me


I'd be more okay with it if Arrieta was pitching well with Montero catching, but his two postseason starts so far have been meh. So, to the extent Montero makes Jake feel better, it's not clear to me that "better feeling Jake" is actually "better pitching Jake". The Indians are also a big baserunning team and, for all the talk about how easy Lester is to run against, he (or, perhaps, more accurately, Ross) is actually not; the Cubs' battery that's easiest to run against is Arrieta-Montero. I hope to see Contreras behind the plate tonight.

That said, I agree w/ the general optimism here. For a 6-0 loss, that one didn't feel terrible. The Cubs survived Bumgarner and Cueto; they survived Kershaw and Hill and Jansen. They can survive Kluber and Miller. Seeing a vintage second-half of 2015 start from Arrieta tonight would go a long way toward doing that.
   23. Kiko Sakata Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:09 PM (#5334766)
I don't remember anyone before him, at least in my time as a baseball fan. I don't like it, other than in special circumstances. I can see it in the case of a knuckleballer, who is tough to catch, or pairing your best throwing catcher if your starter steadfastly refuses to make pickoff throws.


I have a vague recollection from my childhood as an Orioles fan that Weaver did this one or two years. I want to say Dave Skaggs caught Dennis Martinez. If you have two catchers who don't form an obvious platoon (e.g., two right-handed hitters) and you want to split the time 3/4 or 4/5 to one of them, matching up the backup catcher with one specific starting pitcher makes some sense. And if your backup catcher is an offensive zero, it makes sense to put him in the lineup with your best starting pitcher, who ideally needs less offensive support (or, in theory, perhaps your best hitting pitcher) (note: Dennis Martinez was not the Orioles' best starting pitcher; that would have been Jim Palmer, who was a prima donna who almost certainly would have objected to being stuck with the backup catcher).

So, I've always thought that the theory was reasonably sound. The problem here is that it never made as much sense with Montero and Ross, where the obvious way to split playing time was to platoon them.
   24. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:11 PM (#5334769)
I'd be more okay with it if Arrieta was pitching well with Montero catching, but his two postseason starts so far have been meh. So, to the extent Montero makes Jake feel better, it's not clear to me that "better feeling Jake" is actually "better pitching Jake". The Indians are also a big baserunning team and, for all the talk about how easy Lester is to run against, he (or, perhaps, more accurately, Ross) is actually not; the Cubs' battery that's easiest to run against is Arrieta-Montero. I hope to see Contreras behind the plate tonight.


Yup, really this. If the Monty caddy had produced good Jake starts, I'd be more OK with it... but they really didn't. He was -OK- in the NLDS, maybe some better bullpen work makes that one better, but hardly vintage 2015 Jake and the NLCS start was actually pretty shitty.
   25. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:17 PM (#5334779)
If you have two catchers who don't form an obvious platoon (e.g., two right-handed hitters) and you want to split the time 3/4 or 4/5 to one of them, matching up the backup catcher with one specific starting pitcher makes some sense. And if your backup catcher is an offensive zero, it makes sense to put him in the lineup with your best starting pitcher, who ideally needs less offensive support (or, in theory, perhaps your best hitting pitcher) (note: Dennis Martinez was not the Orioles' best starting pitcher; that would have been Jim Palmer, who was a prima donna who almost certainly would have objected to being stuck with the backup catcher).


I'm fine with it if there's an obvious gain. But unless the pitcher has some particular tic (like a Wakefield or a Lester), then you're establishing something that, down the road, may be counterproductive. For instance, that RHB/RHB catching combination you have now becomes a LHB/RHB pair, and your starting pitcher doesn't want to let go of a security blanket that may, as may be the case with Arrieta, be delivering no obvious benefits).

It's the same reason I wouldn't allow a long games played streak take place under my watch. I wouldn't want players having any real say on deployment.

   26. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:17 PM (#5334781)
Wasn't Jake's last really good start in the regular season the first one after they switched from Contreras to Montero? Again, blaming anyone but Jake for his bad starts is a waste of time, but still.
   27. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:19 PM (#5334784)
Wasn't Jake's last really good start in the regular season the first one after they switched from Contreras to Montero? Again, blaming anyone but Jake for his bad starts is a waste of time, but still.

I see a couple of potential methodological and analytical issues with this study.
   28. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:19 PM (#5334785)
25, I agree. Unfortunately at least for the rest of this series, the precedent has been set and doesn't seem worth upsetting. At least to Maddon, who at least publicly goes out of his way to consistently support his players.
   29. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:20 PM (#5334787)
BTW, remember this? It was just preseason, but that was a really cool thing that March.
   30. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:22 PM (#5334791)

25, I agree. Unfortunately at least for the rest of this series, the precedent has been set and doesn't seem worth upsetting. At least to Maddon, who at least publicly goes out of his way to consistently support his players.


Oh, yeah, I wouldn't be messing with it now.

   31. Kiko Sakata Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:24 PM (#5334796)
Wasn't Jake's last really good start in the regular season the first one after they switched from Contreras to Montero?


Yes. In the start immediately after that one, Jake pitched to Miguel and allowed 4 runs in 4 innings before Contreras came in to catch the 5th (and Arrieta promptly gave up 3 more runs). If we want to play with small sample sizes, Arrieta pitched considerably better with Ross catching him (1.32 ERA, .449 OPS) than either Montero (3.02, .590) or Contreras (5.18, .689).
   32. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:26 PM (#5334799)
Wasn't Jake's last really good start in the regular season the first one after they switched from Contreras to Montero? Again, blaming anyone but Jake for his bad starts is a waste of time, but still.


The Cardinals game - yes...

But among the "postmodern Jake" (i.e., after July began and he stopped being Jake the Conqueror), one of his three gems was with Contreras behind the plate... Granted, it was against the Padres, but still -- this one.
   33. Jose is an Absurd Doubles Machine Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:26 PM (#5334800)
During the regular season having your backup catcher dedicated to a specific pitcher makes sense to me. The backup is going to play 30-35 games anyway so letting him build a rhythm and a rapport with a specific starting pitcher seems like a pretty useful way to determine when that guy plays.

As for tonight is Montero vs. a RHP a meaingfully lesser option than Contreras against an RHP?
   34. Kiko Sakata Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:30 PM (#5334803)
As for tonight is Montero vs. a RHP a meaingfully lesser option than Contreras against an RHP?


Offensively, I'd still prefer Contreras without the platoon advantage, but (a) not by a lot, and (b) Contreras in LF, Zobrist in RF is another option for the Cubs to get Contreras' bat in the lineup. The bigger issue is that Montero threw out 11% of would-be basestealers against him and basestealers stole 23 of 26 against Arrieta on the year. Contreras threw out 37%.
   35. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:32 PM (#5334809)
As for tonight is Montero vs. a RHP a meaingfully lesser option than Contreras against an RHP?

Offensively, it's close to a wash if you just used a standard R/L split; Montero's overall vs RHB splits this year are fine (.727OPS; .787 career), but he had such a up and down year, I don't have a lot of confidence in him. Contreras doesn't have a split so far in his limited career; .841OPS vs RHP, .854OPS vs LHP. But by far, the biggest difference is on defense, so that by itself should be enough to push it to Contreras.
   36. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:34 PM (#5334814)
Bruce Levine ‏@MLBBruceLevine 10m10 minutes ago Cleveland, OH
Told Jorge Soler will be in the lineup tonight .


So no Contreras.
   37. Kiko Sakata Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:36 PM (#5334819)
In addition to the basestealing, Arrieta led the NL with 16 wild pitches Contreras allowed 23 WP/PB (17 WP, 6 PB) in 389.2 innings; Montero allowed 45 (41 WP, 4 PB) in 558.1 innings. Arrieta can be tough to catch and Montero's not as agile as he used to be (although Contreras can also be erratic behind the plate at times - witness the 6 PB).
   38. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:37 PM (#5334822)
As for tonight is Montero vs. a RHP a meaingfully lesser option than Contreras against an RHP?


I think it is -- maybe not yuge, as others have noted, Montero returned to perfectly cromulent as the season wore on -- but thus far in the postseason, Contreras is 4 for 10 with a BB against RHP and 5 for 12 against LHP.

Not to take anything away from Baez -- but Contreras' total postseason slash of 409/435/591 is tops amongst all Cub hitters (well, except for Travis Wood's 1.000/1.000/4.000). Only Wood and Schwarber have higher OBP and only Wood, Arrieta, and Schwarber have a higher SLG.
   39. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:39 PM (#5334827)
Told Jorge Soler will be in the lineup tonight .

Is Maddon trying to keep the team loose by reserving one of the starting lineup spots for the guy who tells the best joke in the clubhouse before the game or something?
   40. Kiko Sakata Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:41 PM (#5334829)
Only Wood and Schwarber have higher OBP and only Wood, Arrieta, and Schwarber have a higher SLG.


So, Kyle Schwarber leads Cubs' position players in OBP and SLG after not playing baseball for five months. Small sample size be damned. That's impressive!
   41. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:46 PM (#5334837)
333/500/667 baby!
   42. Weeks T. Olive Posted: October 26, 2016 at 01:51 PM (#5334840)
Starting to think Joe doesn't like Willson or something. Seems really weird to start Soler tonight. RHP on the mound, he's done nothing at all in the post season, and he seems to hate playing in cold weather (completely observational by me).

Whatever. It's a nit, I guess. Soler over Contreras won't decide this game.
   43. Kiko Sakata Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:00 PM (#5334847)
Starting to think Joe doesn't like Willson or something.... Whatever. It's a nit, I guess. Soler over Contreras won't decide this game.


I'm not as convinced as many of you that Montero's going to be catching.
   44. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:03 PM (#5334849)
he seems to hate playing in cold weather (completely observational by me).

Oh, he does. He'll be wearing that full face mask/hat combo for sure.
   45. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:07 PM (#5334850)
Carrie Muskat ‏@CarrieMuskat 16m16 minutes ago
#Cubs Zobrist is 2nd player to have 3 Hs in opening games of consecutive World Series. The other? Babe Ruth in 1927 and '28


Ok.
   46. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:10 PM (#5334852)
It's already raining and feels like 40 in Cleveland, though the forecast says the rain will pause around 5ish.
   47. Kiko Sakata Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:11 PM (#5334853)
Per Carrie Muskat on Twitter:

#Cubs lineup: Fowler CF, Bryant 3B, Riz 1B, Zobrist LF, Schwarber DH, Baez 2B, Contreras C, Soler RF, Russell SS


Re: #43, told you so!

EDIT: Coke to Moses. But still, re: #43, I told you so!
   48. Weeks T. Olive Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:11 PM (#5334855)
Whoa. Good call, Kiko.
   49. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:12 PM (#5334856)
Indeed. Well done, Kiko. And Joe. I'm pretty happy with that.
   50. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:13 PM (#5334857)
Buster Olney ‏@Buster_ESPN 2m2 minutes ago
From @bonzoverbristol: Jorge Soler in temperatures below 50 degrees -- 21 games, .559 OPS, .162, 0 homers. Arrieta: 3-0, 1.35 ERA.


Ok. Well, I mean, for Soler, that lines up with what we've seen.
   51. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:15 PM (#5334858)
It's already raining and feels like 40 in Cleveland,

"No, Jorge, you can't take a space heater with you onto the field."
   52. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:17 PM (#5334860)
Outstanding.

I approve.

Unless REALLY bad Jake shows up, in which case, somebody hacked my account.

I'm happier about Contreras catching than I am about Heyward's auto-out on the bench.
   53. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:31 PM (#5334871)
So do we think that maybe Maddon finally had The Talk with Heyward?
   54. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 02:31 PM (#5334872)
This is SO terrible, it's AMAZING.

Posted this in the game chatter too. Might even give it it's own embedded post.
   55. Zonk Tormundbane Posted: October 26, 2016 at 04:49 PM (#5334939)
Ticket check update...

Friday SROs now down to a bargain $1400, Saturdays down to $1800... Sunday still over $2000.
   56. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 04:55 PM (#5334941)
Mark Gonzales ‏@MDGonzales 1m1 minute ago
Maddon chose Contreras due to his ability to slow the Tribe's running game and he could benefit with Bauer being a reverse split pitcher.

Mark Gonzales ‏@MDGonzales 35s36 seconds ago
Contreras will get most of the work in this series, although Montero could get time as part of a double switch.


These aren't direct quotes, but I'm assuming this is coming from Maddon talking. Definitely glad to hear about Contreras starting most of the series, which I guess we could have assumed based on today's start.
   57. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 26, 2016 at 05:05 PM (#5334949)
So do we think that maybe Maddon finally had The Talk with Heyward?

Yep:
Patrick Mooney ‏@CSNMooney 41s41 seconds ago
Maddon met w/Heyward before World Series Game 1: "He wants to be playing (but) we had a good exchange of thoughts. He didn’t leave angry."

Mark Gonzales ‏@MDGonzales 1m1 minute ago
Maddon spoke with Heyward and understands his desire to play. Planned to employ him as pinch-runner for Schwarber in Game 1..
   58. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: October 26, 2016 at 05:10 PM (#5334953)
He didn’t leave angry.

I would hope not. As frustrated as I'm sure he is, he's got to understand that he's had all the time in the world to turn in around and just hasn't been able to. Can't keep running him out there when this much is on the line.
   59. Andere Richtingen Posted: October 26, 2016 at 06:01 PM (#5334995)
Inserting Heyward into the DH spot via pinch running seems to me a terrible use of his talents.
   60. The Honorable Ardo Posted: October 26, 2016 at 11:56 PM (#5335715)
This series feels a whole lot better now. Mike Montgomery really pitched his tail off in Game 2.

And no, you can't play Schwarber in left field. There are four options:

- Heyward
- Soler
- Coghlan
- Almora

It's an interesting choice.
   61. The Honorable Ardo Posted: October 26, 2016 at 11:58 PM (#5335716)
Inserting Heyward into the DH spot via pinch running seems to me a terrible use of his talents.

Small nitpick: Soler was playing RF. Heyward didn't show much in his two at-bats (yes, he made a loud out, but it was a 2-0 cookie from the Indians' mop-up man).
   62. McCoy Posted: October 27, 2016 at 06:35 AM (#5335730)
I believe that was for game 1

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