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Tuesday, February 03, 2004

1919 Ballot

Sorry it’s late (and sorry for that pattern) - I was out of town and now that I’m on my new schedule, this is my first internet access. Should have set it up before I left . . . hopefully being one day short doesn’t hurt anything.

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: February 03, 2004 at 09:58 AM | 109 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: February 09, 2004 at 07:16 AM (#521525)
Oops, forgot to explain my asterisk. (Since I went to the trouble of putting it there in the first place.)

*Yeah, so that means I only have one difference with the offical Hall to this point(which is Elmer Flick, and he'll make mine soon.) OTOH, in a couple of years I'll be welcoming Mr. Pearce, and very possibly Hughie and Frank, which should differentiate me enough.

I don't know why I felt the need to add this. It made sense when I started writing my ballot. I gotta go to bed.
   102. Brian H Posted: February 09, 2004 at 08:14 AM (#521526)
A serious computer problem prevents me from adding much to last years comments etc.

1. Bobby Caruthers (5 AS, 2 Cy Young, 2 MVP) A tremendous winner. For my money the best AA player of all. He had an enormous amount of pennant impact. According to James his Pennant impact was greater than any player we have voted on except Kid Nichols. Most of his best years were during the years the AA was nearly on par with the NL. Caruthers? weakness is the brevity of his career ? 2828 IP. However, he also played 388 games as a position player (almost exactly his total as a Pitcher). Thus he may have packed over 10 years of excellence into his shorter career. If after staring as a Pitcher he then converted himself into a position player he would probably be a HOMer already (like Ward). The way he did it actually had more impact and helped win a bounty of pennants... His five year Win Share total in the NHBA is THE HIGHEST OF ALL PLAYERS EVER (including those not yet eligible like Ruth, Grove, Cobb and Bonds).

2. Jimmy Collins (5 AS) ? For many years many people who were considered wise in Baseball viewed Collins as the best 3B of all time. In particular Connie Mack who had about the longest baseball life imaginable ranked Collins at #1 in 1950 and he managed Baker. I don?t think he was the best ever but it started me thinking about who might be better and I came up with a pretty short list. Viewed as simply another position player who hit he wouldn?t rank nearly this high but I am guessing simply running the numbers doesn?t nearly capture his greatness. Apparently when he played third he literally foreclosed the then-popular bunt to third... Collins played an integral role in the success of the first World Series Champions in ?03.

3. Hugh Jennings ? (3 AS + 2 MVP) His peak is among the highest ever at SS. He was not merely the top SS of an era abundant with outstanding shortstops -- he was arguably the MVP in 1895 & ?96. This was in perhaps the most competitive era we have judged to date (the one-league 1890?s). James (a peak fan) ranks Jennings just above Dahlen among all SSs... Jennings was an integral part of the ?Old Orioles? dynasty of the ?90s.

4. Frank Chance (7 AS, 1 MVP) As a Cub fan I wanted to list him higher. Either way he was the premier 1B for several years (weak years for the position). Conversely I have Beckley as the top 1B for only a few years. He would rank higher if: (A) He was accorded credit for managing the Cubs; or (B) He was more durable and put up career numbers like his nemesis Fred Clarke.

5. Joe McGinitty (4 AS, 2 Cy Young, arguably 3 Cy Youngs)? Very strong peak and stronger career numbers than the new candidates. A crucial player for McGraw?s giants.

6. Big Sam Thompson -- (6 STATS All-star teams and 1 MVP)? Still the best power hitter on the ballot. I see him as a slightly above average fielder with a cannon ? I don?t know what the answer on his fielding is but it seems our ballots are all over the place on it. Crucial player on Detroit?s NL pennant in 1887, his lone MVP year.

7. Hugh Duffy ?(2 AS, 1 MVP) Duffy was integral part of Boston?s ?team of the 90?s?. He had an exceptional peak and enough of a career that I can?t call it a fluke. Reknowned as a heads up player. Scores very well on Win Shares and is thus very highly thought of by James.

8. Joe Kelley ? (2 AS) A top hitter who excelled against top -flight competition (ie 1890's NL). Kelley (like Keeler, Jennings and McGraw) was also an essential part of the Old Orioles championship teams.

9. Wee Willie Keeler (2 AS) Another great Old Oriole, I thought he?d score much higher. I still would have trouble imagining him not being elected sooner or later. He had the longest hitting streak until DiMaggio?s 56 in ?41.

10. Pete Browning (8 AS !) ? A better AA hitter you will not find. Not as good all around as Stovey ? a much better career than O?Niell. His early AA years are discounted. Apparently he was known as the Gladiator for his battles in the outfield (with the ball).

11. JImmy Sheckard - (2 AS) I haven't gotten my mind around him yet but I think his career numbers warrant a ranking above the 1890's OFs Ryan and Van Haltren. I don't think that he ever excelled to the same degree the OFs above him did.

12. Rube Waddell ? (3 AS, 1 CY + 1 MVP) ? one of the greatest strikeout Pitchers of all time. If he had the legendary savvy of Griffith, for example, he probably would have won 300 games and become a first ballot HOMer.

13. Cupid Childs (5 AS) ? I had him above McPhee based on his peak and strength of competition (as does James). I also think he hit a bit better than Bid (although his fielding was clearly inferior). Unfortunately, Childs? window of opportunity as the top 2B candidate is closing rapidly as Lajoie?s career winds down.

14. JJ McGraw (2 AS) ? Very tough to rank Mugsy with the short and injury plagued career. Highest lifetime OBA of any candidate to date. When he played he was incredibly valuable and, it wouldn?t surprise me if he was even valuable to his teams when he was injured just by his presence. McGraw himself considered Jimmy Collins the greatest 3B ever.

15. Tony Mullane -- He sits out one season and it costs him the Hall of Fame (because he would have won 300 games). Even so Mullane actually accumulated more win shares than any other eligible player over the course of his career. I wonder if the Charley Jones supporters credit Tony for his lost season ?

Missing my ballot:

Even as the pre-eminent Catcher (other than Ewing) of the 19th Century Charlie Bennett (2 AS) does not make my ballot. In addition to Ewing we have elected two other players who spent considerable time behind the plate ? King Kelly and Deacon White. With that in mind I don't feel as strongly as some that the position is grossly underrepresented at this time. I also note with sadness that Bennett may very well have had a HOM career if he had been able to play longer (not necessarily as a Catcher).

For the Negro League players I rely on the experts. The Negro League mavens don?t rate Grant that highly. So, in the absence of otherwise persuasive information, I don?t rank Grant that highly either. The converse will also be true ? when the Negro League authorities rank players highly I will too.
   103. Brian H Posted: February 09, 2004 at 08:15 AM (#521527)
A serious computer problem prevents me from adding much to last years comments etc.

1. Bobby Caruthers (5 AS, 2 Cy Young, 2 MVP) A tremendous winner. For my money the best AA player of all. He had an enormous amount of pennant impact. According to James his Pennant impact was greater than any player we have voted on except Kid Nichols. Most of his best years were during the years the AA was nearly on par with the NL. Caruthers? weakness is the brevity of his career ? 2828 IP. However, he also played 388 games as a position player (almost exactly his total as a Pitcher). Thus he may have packed over 10 years of excellence into his shorter career. If after staring as a Pitcher he then converted himself into a position player he would probably be a HOMer already (like Ward). The way he did it actually had more impact and helped win a bounty of pennants... His five year Win Share total in the NHBA is THE HIGHEST OF ALL PLAYERS EVER (including those not yet eligible like Ruth, Grove, Cobb and Bonds).

2. Jimmy Collins (5 AS) ? For many years many people who were considered wise in Baseball viewed Collins as the best 3B of all time. In particular Connie Mack who had about the longest baseball life imaginable ranked Collins at #1 in 1950 and he managed Baker. I don?t think he was the best ever but it started me thinking about who might be better and I came up with a pretty short list. Viewed as simply another position player who hit he wouldn?t rank nearly this high but I am guessing simply running the numbers doesn?t nearly capture his greatness. Apparently when he played third he literally foreclosed the then-popular bunt to third... Collins played an integral role in the success of the first World Series Champions in ?03.

3. Hugh Jennings ? (3 AS + 2 MVP) His peak is among the highest ever at SS. He was not merely the top SS of an era abundant with outstanding shortstops -- he was arguably the MVP in 1895 & ?96. This was in perhaps the most competitive era we have judged to date (the one-league 1890?s). James (a peak fan) ranks Jennings just above Dahlen among all SSs... Jennings was an integral part of the ?Old Orioles? dynasty of the ?90s.

4. Frank Chance (7 AS, 1 MVP) As a Cub fan I wanted to list him higher. Either way he was the premier 1B for several years (weak years for the position). Conversely I have Beckley as the top 1B for only a few years. He would rank higher if: (A) He was accorded credit for managing the Cubs; or (B) He was more durable and put up career numbers like his nemesis Fred Clarke.

5. Joe McGinitty (4 AS, 2 Cy Young, arguably 3 Cy Youngs)? Very strong peak and stronger career numbers than the new candidates. A crucial player for McGraw?s giants.

6. Big Sam Thompson -- (6 STATS All-star teams and 1 MVP)? Still the best power hitter on the ballot. I see him as a slightly above average fielder with a cannon ? I don?t know what the answer on his fielding is but it seems our ballots are all over the place on it. Crucial player on Detroit?s NL pennant in 1887, his lone MVP year.

7. Hugh Duffy ?(2 AS, 1 MVP) Duffy was integral part of Boston?s ?team of the 90?s?. He had an exceptional peak and enough of a career that I can?t call it a fluke. Reknowned as a heads up player. Scores very well on Win Shares and is thus very highly thought of by James.

8. Joe Kelley ? (2 AS) A top hitter who excelled against top -flight competition (ie 1890's NL). Kelley (like Keeler, Jennings and McGraw) was also an essential part of the Old Orioles championship teams.

9. Wee Willie Keeler (2 AS) Another great Old Oriole, I thought he?d score much higher. I still would have trouble imagining him not being elected sooner or later. He had the longest hitting streak until DiMaggio?s 56 in ?41.

10. Pete Browning (8 AS !) ? A better AA hitter you will not find. Not as good all around as Stovey ? a much better career than O?Niell. His early AA years are discounted. Apparently he was known as the Gladiator for his battles in the outfield (with the ball).

11. JImmy Sheckard - (2 AS) I haven't gotten my mind around him yet but I think his career numbers warrant a ranking above the 1890's OFs Ryan and Van Haltren. I don't think that he ever excelled to the same degree the OFs above him did.

12. Rube Waddell ? (3 AS, 1 CY + 1 MVP) ? one of the greatest strikeout Pitchers of all time. If he had the legendary savvy of Griffith, for example, he probably would have won 300 games and become a first ballot HOMer.

13. Cupid Childs (5 AS) ? I had him above McPhee based on his peak and strength of competition (as does James). I also think he hit a bit better than Bid (although his fielding was clearly inferior). Unfortunately, Childs? window of opportunity as the top 2B candidate is closing rapidly as Lajoie?s career winds down.

14. JJ McGraw (2 AS) ? Very tough to rank Mugsy with the short and injury plagued career. Highest lifetime OBA of any candidate to date. When he played he was incredibly valuable and, it wouldn?t surprise me if he was even valuable to his teams when he was injured just by his presence. McGraw himself considered Jimmy Collins the greatest 3B ever.

15. Tony Mullane -- He sits out one season and it costs him the Hall of Fame (because he would have won 300 games). Even so Mullane actually accumulated more win shares than any other eligible player over the course of his career. I wonder if the Charley Jones supporters credit Tony for his lost season ?

Missing my ballot:

Even as the pre-eminent Catcher (other than Ewing) of the 19th Century Charlie Bennett (2 AS) does not make my ballot. In addition to Ewing we have elected two other players who spent considerable time behind the plate ? King Kelly and Deacon White. With that in mind I don't feel as strongly as some that the position is grossly underrepresented at this time. I also note with sadness that Bennett may very well have had a HOM career if he had been able to play longer (not necessarily as a Catcher).

For the Negro League players I rely on the experts. The Negro League mavens don?t rate Grant that highly. So, in the absence of otherwise persuasive information, I don?t rank Grant that highly either. The converse will also be true ? when the Negro League authorities rank players highly I will too.
   104. Brian H Posted: February 09, 2004 at 08:16 AM (#521528)
Sorry about the double-post. I am from Chicago but I don't want my vote counted twice (at least not in this election).
   105. Max Parkinson Posted: February 09, 2004 at 02:55 PM (#521531)
First off, congrats go out to Bid McPhee and Fred Clarke, this year's MP HoM inductees...

1. Jimmy Collins ? Without a doubt, the greatest defensive 3rd baseman in the first 80 years of professional baseball. A career OPS+ of 113 as well, so also helped his teams with the stick. In my system, Collins was the best fielder in all of the game every year from 1897-1904 save 1901, where he was the 4th best, and 1902, where he was 3rd. If Ezra Sutton can be a HoMer with a career OPS+ of 119, and average at best defense for most of his career, Jimmy is a cinch.

2. Hughie Jennings ? The list of position players who were MVPs under my system from 1871 to 1919 follows:

Ross Barnes (1872,1876)
   106. Max Parkinson Posted: February 09, 2004 at 03:24 PM (#521532)
First off, congrats go out to Bid McPhee and Fred Clarke, this year's MP HoM inductees...

1. Jimmy Collins ? Without a doubt, the greatest defensive 3rd baseman in the first 80 years of professional baseball. A career OPS+ of 113 as well, so also helped his teams with the stick. In my system, Collins was the best fielder in all of the game every year from 1897-1904 save 1901, where he was the 4th best, and 1902, where he was 3rd. If Ezra Sutton can be a HoMer with a career OPS+ of 119, and average at best defense for most of his career, Jimmy is a cinch.

2. Hughie Jennings ? The list of position players who were MVPs under my system from 1871 to 1919 follows:

Ross Barnes (1872,1876)
   107. Carl Goetz Posted: February 09, 2004 at 04:08 PM (#521533)
Here's my ballot for 1919. Please welcome Frank Grant and Dickey Pearce into my personal HoM.

1)Charlie Bennett- Still no better catchers on the ballot. None are even close.
   108. Max Parkinson Posted: February 09, 2004 at 05:51 PM (#521534)
Ugh, sorry for the double post...
   109. Dag Nabbit: secretary of the World Banana Forum Posted: February 09, 2004 at 09:13 PM (#521537)
Brian H.:
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