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Thursday, June 10, 2004

1927 Results - Negro Leaguer Elected for 3rd Consecutive Year

Joe Jackson overcame his first-year boycott and Pete Hill became the 3rd Negro Leaguer elected to the Hall of Merit, joining Grant Johnson and Frank Grant.

After being left off 27 ballots in 1926 (presumably for his role in the 1919 Black Sox scandal), Jackson was only missing on 3.5 ballots for 1927, and he easily won the election with 875 points.

Hill was elected in his first year of eligibility, edging out Joe McGinnity and Bobby Wallace.

Jimmy Sheckard, Sam Thompson, Bob Caruthers, Dickey Pearce and Lip Pike finished 5-9, repeating their finish from 1926. Jake Beckley rounded out the top 10.

RK   LY  Player             PTS Bal    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
 1   10  Joe Jackson        875 45.5  17  7  5  3  2  2  3     1  2  1     1     1.5
 2  n/e  Pete Hill          706 45     1  9  5  1  6  3  4  6  3  1  1  1  1  1  2
 3    4  Joe McGinnity      663 43.5   4  2  6  6  5  4  2  5     1  2  2     2  2.5
 4    3  Bobby Wallace      625 36.5   6  5  3  5  6  2  1  2     3  1  1        1.5
 5    5  Jimmy Sheckard     591 37     2  5  4  5  5  7  1     2        3  1  1  1
 6    6  Sam Thompson       539 35     1  6  5  4  1  3  4     2     3  2  2  2   
 7    7  Bob Caruthers      494 33     3  5  1  2  3  3  2  1  1  2  4  1  3  2   
 8    8  Dickey Pearce      470 30     5  3  3  2  1  2  3  1  2     3  2     2  1
 9    9  Lip Pike           434 30     4  2     3  2  2  3  2  2  2  1  3  1  2  1
10   11  Jake Beckley       377 27     1     3  4  3  3  4  1  1  2  1  2     1   
11   12  George Van Haltren 354 27     1  1  2  2  2  1  2  3  2  2  1  1  4  2  2
12   13  Jimmy Ryan         322 26           3  2  1  2     3  5  3  1  2  1  2  1
13   14  Rube Waddell       278 24           1     1  3  2  2  4  2  3  2  1  1  2
14   16  Hughie Jennings    252 21     1     1  2  1  1  1  1  3  1  2     4  1  2
15   17  Clark Griffith     243 22     1  1              2  2     6  1  2  1  4  2
16   15  Roger Bresnahan    237 22              1  3        1  1  3  4  5  1  3   
17   19  Bill Monroe        222 21              1        3  4  2  1  1  3  1  1  4
18   18  Hugh Duffy         220 20                 2  3  1     2  1  4  1  3  3   
19   20  Rube Foster        192 16           1  1        2  1  4  3  2     1  1   
20   21  Mickey Welch       189 14     1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1           2  2
21   26  Larry Doyle        162 13           3  1     1  1        2     2  1  2   
22   23  Pete Browning      161 12           1  2  2  1  1     1     2  1     1   
23   22  Cupid Childs       157 15        1     1           1  1  1  2  1  5     2
24   24  Tommy Leach        142 15                    1     3     2  1  1  2  1  4
25   30  Eddie Cicotte      128 12        1           1     1  3     1        1  4
26   25  Gavy Cravath       123 12                    1  2  2     1     1  2     3
27   27  Charley Jones      114  9           1     1     1  1  2     2  1         
28   28  Ed Williamson      103 12                       1        2  1  1  1  4  2
29   29  Addie Joss          66  6.5                        1  1  2        2      .5
30   34  Fielder Jones       64  7                          1        2     3  1   
31  n/e  Ed Konetchy         61  6                       1     1  1     1  1  1   
32   33  Frank Chance        59  6                          2  1           1  1  1
33   32  John MGraw          56  4     1                       1  1     1         
34   31  Vic Willis          52  6                          1        1  1  1     2
35   37  Jim McCormick       31  4                                      2     1  1
36   36  Tommy Bond          29  2                    1  1                        
37   40  Herman Long         27  3                                1     1     1   
38   38  Lave Cross          25  2                 1                    1         
39   39  Mike Tiernan        23  3                                      1  1     1
40   42  Silver King         16  2                                   1           1
41   45T Levi Meyerle*       15  2                                         1  1   
42   41  Tom York            15  1                    1                           
43T  43  Tony Mullane         8  1                                         1      
43T  44  Ray Chapman          8  1                                         1      
45   35  Harry Wright         7  1                                            1   
46T  --  Jimmy Williams       6  1                                               1
46T  --  Johnny Evers         6  1                                               1
*won tie-breaker, ahead on individual ballots, 2-1
Dropped out: Joe Tinker (45T), Fred Dunlap (47).

 

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 10, 2004 at 03:53 PM | 36 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 10, 2004 at 04:07 PM (#668870)
I wonder if we should have held Jackson back until he was 40. Conceivably he could have been reinstated. I imagine Landis would have said, "he isn't getting back in no matter what, so go on with your election, if you feel he must be eligible," . . .
   2. Michael Bass Posted: June 10, 2004 at 04:14 PM (#668881)
I think someone (I forget who) had the right idea when they suggested he got an unfair advantage in not being compared to his true peers because he was tossed out early. Still, he was getting in either way, so it all evens out over time.

This year's shaping up as a pretty obvious one; I suspect Baker will get support between the levels of Hill and Jackson. Not overwhelming, but a whole lotta top 8 votes giving plenty to get in. And McGinnity has a pretty commanding lead now on the 2nd slot for 1928.

Interesting to me is that Sheckard is gaining on Wallace. Could make for an exciting 1929 election.
   3. Brad G. Posted: June 10, 2004 at 04:20 PM (#668889)
Maybe I'm a bit slow, but how was Jackson missing on a half ballot? How do we keep getting half ballots?
   4. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 10, 2004 at 04:21 PM (#668891)
Oh, thanks to John, Eric, Patrick and Ron for sending in tallies!
   5. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 10, 2004 at 04:23 PM (#668894)
Brad - if you tie two players for 15th, they are each named on 1/2 a ballot.

Yeah Michael, if we had to do it again, I'd say we make a rule than anyone banned for life isn't eligible until he's 45 years old. Really it's a no-brainer if you ask me. That would have made Jackson eligible for the 1935 election.
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 10, 2004 at 04:28 PM (#668901)
Oh, thanks to John, Eric, Patrick and Ron for sending in tallies!

Actually, I didn't send one in this time because I left off a ballot (imagine that!) and couldn't find it.

But thanks anyway, Joe! :-)
   7. DavidFoss Posted: June 10, 2004 at 05:55 PM (#669158)
Two corner outfielders... with Sheckard & Thompson at 5/6. How is the positional balance of our electorate coming along?
   8. PhillyBooster Posted: June 10, 2004 at 06:10 PM (#669222)
I agree with Brad. Jackson was missing from 3 ballots, not 3.5. He simply got half credit on one of the 46 ballots he appeared on.

Anyway . . .

By my rough could he HoM now has exactly 50 inductees.

Positionally, the most represented is pitcher (12.5) and left fielder (7.5) and the least represented is third baseman (2.5) and Catcher and centerfielder (3.5 each).

Looking at the HoM by year, the best represented year among HoMers in 1890 (27 HoMers playing at least half time) and 1892 (26). There were at least 20 for each year between 1880 and 1894. There were about half that many (8-11) for the 1870s, climbing to 16 in 1879, 15 in 1880 and 20 in 1881. There is not much deviation from 18 between 1895 and 1905, and after 17 in 1908 there is the expected tailing off as many will-bes are still on the ballot or not yet eligible.

If you were putting together an All-Star team for the National League for each year from 1901-1910, you would only have HoMers at three positions, tops: pitcher (Mathewson, Nichols), shortstop (Davis, Dahlen, Wagner) and left field (Magee, Clarke). The other six positions in the AL (C, 1B, 2B, 3B, CF, RF) are HoMerless and look to remain so for a while. Electees from the AL have been a little more spread out.
   9. PhillyBooster Posted: June 10, 2004 at 06:14 PM (#669238)
Didn't see David's post. By my rough count (assigning each player either a single position, or half of the player to two positions if he had two primaries):

12.5--P
3.5---C
5.0---1B
4.5---2B
6.5---SS
2.5---3B
7.5---LF
3.5---CF
4.5---RF

Looks like a fairly normal distribution to me, although I think the electorate has been too hard on Bresnahan and Williamson, which would help the biggest deficits.
   10. Chris Cobb Posted: June 10, 2004 at 06:25 PM (#669304)
Grouping the positions a bit, I get

15.5 OF
14 IF (2B, SS, 3B)
12.5 P
4.5 1B
3.5 C

This is pretty equitable. OF is a little ahead -- P & C are a bit behind. If, as seems most likely, we elect Baker and McGinnity in 1928, that will improve balance, though OF seems likely to pull ahead again a bit after that. Views of balance will be heavily influenced by views about the number of pitchers that ought to be included: I see them as meriting representation about equal to outfielders and high-defense infielders, so I think we're pretty close to right.
   11. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: June 10, 2004 at 07:24 PM (#669594)
49 ballots, no one on all of them. Only one returner on more than 37 of them.

That 1929 election's gonna really wide open.
   12. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 10, 2004 at 09:17 PM (#670039)
Only one returner on more than 37 of them.

I can't see an argument for leaving Baker off the ballot next week, so maybe we'll have one player on all the ballots for '28.
   13. Sean Gilman Posted: June 11, 2004 at 01:26 AM (#670387)
For the HOM Game this year we have one of the greatest teams ever against one of the oddest teams ever.

Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig and the 1927 Yankees vs. Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Zach Wheat, Mickey Cochrane, Lefty Grove, Al Simmons, Max Bishop and Jimmie Foxx and the 1927 Philadelphia A's. (Tris Speaker would replace Baby Doll Jacobson on the bench in '28).
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: June 11, 2004 at 02:47 AM (#670617)
Fellas,
I think I had some pretty good "HOM representation" charts, and if they ever fix the damn site, I'll update 'em...
   15. Howie Menckel Posted: June 11, 2004 at 02:49 AM (#670620)
One more:
What years would we call Hill a regular (more than half team's games), or a part-timer (more than 10, fewer than half), or token (fewer than 10 G)?
Ever a teammate with the other Negro Leaguer electees?
   16. Chris Cobb Posted: June 11, 2004 at 03:16 AM (#670698)
What years would we call Hill a regular (more than half team's games), or a part-timer (more than 10, fewer than half), or token (fewer than 10 G)?
Ever a teammate with the other Negro Leaguer electees?


Reprise of what I posted on 1926 results thread:

Pete Hill was active and full-time from 1899-1921. He broke in with a top team in 1901. He was a part-time player/manager 1922-25. He was never a teammate of Frank Grant. He and Grant Johnson were teammates in 1905-06 on the Philadelphia Giants and in 1910 on the Chicago Leland Giants.

I would list Hill as
full time, 1901-1921
part time, 1921-24
token, 1925

His "major-league equivalent" seasons would be a bit different, but this is my best reconstruction of how much he was actually playing in the best league available to him.
   17. DavidFoss Posted: June 11, 2004 at 03:32 AM (#670763)
Fellas,
I think I had some pretty good "HOM representation" charts, and if they ever fix the damn site, I'll update 'em...


Joe, Any way we can get a read-only cache of the old pages? That might eliminate the obstacle of converting the old threads into the new format...
   18. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 11, 2004 at 03:36 AM (#670783)
Chris Cobb:

I've been meaning to ask you: Are there any pitchers from Rube Foster's time that are comparable to him. I'm trying to find out where he belongs among the McGinnity's, Waddells, etc., for career and peak. Thanks!
   19. Chris Cobb Posted: June 11, 2004 at 03:59 AM (#670881)
John,

Do you mean among black ballplayers or white ballplayers or both?
   20. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 11, 2004 at 04:35 AM (#670990)
David - the old pages are all there, it's a question of providing links for them.

What specifically are you looking for?
   21. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 11, 2004 at 04:44 AM (#671006)
Do you mean among black ballplayers or white ballplayers or both?

Both.
   22. Howie Menckel Posted: June 11, 2004 at 11:03 AM (#671104)
Thanks, Chris!!
   23. Howie Menckel Posted: June 11, 2004 at 11:35 AM (#671109)
At this point, 1910 Cleveland is the first team since 1895 Louisville to have at least four HOMers on the same team (minimum 10 G).
20-yr old Joe Jackson appears in 20 games, Elmer Flick (age 34) plays in 24, and Cy Young goes 7-10 at age 43. Nap Lajoie does have a very good year at age 35.
Cleveland finishes fifth at 71-81. Addie Joss goes 5-5, Roger Peckinpaugh (age 19) gets 15 games in, and Deacon McGuire (age 46) makes a token appearance.
   24. DanG Posted: June 11, 2004 at 01:32 PM (#671129)
Here is a different look at the position breakdown in the HOM. There is a subjective element to my process and the Negro leaguers probably are a little off. There are other, even more accurate ways to do this, but I think it gives a better picture than the list in #9 above. Anyway, it shows the total number of careers at each position, and the main players with the approximate fraction of their career spent at the position. (Includes seasons from 1866-on.)

50 HoMer Position Breakdown

C – 2.8 – (all)Bennett__(1/2)Ewing-White__(1/3)McVey-Kelly
3b – 3.2 – (all)Collin__/(3/4)Sutton__(1/3)White-Davis__(1/6)Richardson-Anson-Ewing
cf – 4.6 – (all)Gore__(3/4)Hines-Hill__(2/3)Hamilton__(1/3)O’Rourke__(1/6)Kelley-Crawford-Delahanty
rf – 4.9 – (all)Keeler-Flick__(3/4)Crawford__(2/3)Kelly__(1/2)Jackson__(1/4)McVey__(1/6)Stovey
2b – 5.0 – (all)McPhee-Lajoie-Grant__(3/4)Barnes__(1/2)Richardson__(1/4)Johnson-Ward
1b – 5.4 – (all)Start-Brouthers-Connor__(3/4)Anson__(1/2)Stovey__(1/4)McVey-Ewing__(1/6)Kelley
ss – 5.9 – (all)Glasscock-Wright-Dahlen)__(3/4)Wagner-Johnson__(1/2)Davis-Ward__(1/4)Barnes__(1/6)Sutton
lf – 6.1 – (all)Clarke-Burkett__(3/4)Magee__(2/3)Delahanty-Kelley__(1/2)Jackson__(1/3)O’Rourke-Stovey__(1/4)Richardson-Hill-Hamilton
P – 12.2 – (all)Clarkson-Keefe-Rusie-Radbourn-Spalding-Galvin-Nichols-Young-Walsh-Mathewson-Plank-Brown__(1/4)Ward
   25. Howie Menckel Posted: June 11, 2004 at 01:44 PM (#671137)
50 HOMers, and none with the same last name (though there's Clarke-Clarkson; Frank Grant-Grant Johnson; Kelley-Kelly; McPhee-McVey; Bid-Kid; and White-Wright).

Is Eddie Collins the one to break that streak?
   26. Chris Cobb Posted: June 11, 2004 at 02:22 PM (#671165)
Is Eddie Collins the one to break that streak?

Walter Johnson will beat him by a year.
   27. DavidFoss Posted: June 11, 2004 at 03:29 PM (#671249)
David - the old pages are all there, it's a question of providing links for them.

What specifically are you looking for?


I'm just talking about all the information that was truncated in the conversion. The old tables Howie was talking about. Other interesting research. Read-only images would be fine.
   28. TheGoodSamaritan Posted: June 11, 2004 at 06:23 PM (#671582)
about the HOM game, why is Waite Hoyt the player of the game? if anybody I would pick Lefty Grove. pitched 10 innings against one of the best teams of all time.
   29. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: June 11, 2004 at 07:28 PM (#671695)
I love Mickey Welch's line up above. 1 vote for every slot from 1-10. Nice little picket fence he's got there.
   30. DanG Posted: June 11, 2004 at 08:09 PM (#671763)
Also, note that as the balloting becomes more fragmented we begin to see more candidates with votes in every slot on the ballot.

Hill and Van Haltren did this in 1927, Caruthers and Thompson in 1926. Prior to this it had not been done since Wallace in 1921.
   31. PhillyBooster Posted: June 11, 2004 at 08:25 PM (#671788)
The "half ballot" line also moved up.

Previously, 14 to 16 players had appeared on at least half of the ballots in each election. This year only 12 did.
   32. OCF Posted: June 11, 2004 at 08:35 PM (#671790)
The average consensus score was 3, compared to 1 in 1926 and 5 in 1925. The player with the highest level of disagreement was Pearce, followed by Wallace, then Caruthers. The top consensus scores have usually been in a tight cluster, but this year we have outliers: RMc, back after four years away, had a +17, followed by Chris J at 14 and then Devin McCullen at +11. On the other end, John Murphy's place is secure at -12, followed by KJOK at -10 and Guapo at -9. My own score is +3. To get it much higher than that would require the removal by election of some players that I'm not voting for.
   33. jimd Posted: June 12, 2004 at 02:32 AM (#672647)
I imagine Landis would have said, "he isn't getting back in no matter what, so go on with your election, if you feel he must be eligible,"

He might have quietly let it be known that if we elected Jackson, MLB would sever all ties with the HOM. That wouldn't intimidate us, but could possibly set in motion the establishment of a rival HOF with a different electorate (in Cooperstown maybe ;-).
   34. DavidFoss Posted: June 12, 2004 at 03:13 AM (#672707)
1927 Active major leaguers older than Shoeless Joe:

Quinn-PHA 1883-07-05 (43)
Nixon-PHI 1886-04-11 (41)
Blackburne-CHW 1886-10-23 (40)
Sommers-BOS 1886-10-30 (40)
Schang-STL 1886-12-07 (40)
Cobb-PHA 1886-12-18 (40)
Alexander-STL 1887-02-26 (40)
Collins-PHA 1887-05-02 (40)
Rudolph-BSN 1887-08-25 (39)
Johnson-WSH 1887-11-06 (39)
Williams-PHI 1887-12-21 (39)
Speaker-WSH 1888-04-04 (39)
Wheat-PHA 1888-05-23 (39)
Hartley-BOS 1888-07-02 (38)
Mogridge-BSN 1889-02-18 (38)
Coveleski-WSH 1889-07-13 (37)

... and that's with the boycott year. Add Merkle, Austin & BAdams for 1926.
   35. Sean Gilman Posted: June 12, 2004 at 09:34 PM (#673509)
about the HOM game, why is Waite Hoyt the player of the game? if anybody I would pick Lefty Grove. pitched 10 innings against one of the best teams of all time.

2 reasons:

1. Players from the losing team are almost never the player of the game. It's one of the many flaws with the POG formula they have.

2. Grove gave up a lot more hits and walks and the same amount of runs as Hoyt did.
   36. Jeff M Posted: June 13, 2004 at 09:03 PM (#675121)
about the HOM game, why is Waite Hoyt the player of the game? if anybody I would pick Lefty Grove. pitched 10 innings against one of the best teams of all time.

That Philly lineup wasn't too shabby either. And only 8 reached base against Hoyt in 9 IP (as opposed to 16 Yanks reaching base against Grove in 10 IP).

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