Karlmagnus,

PhillyBooster does have Bob Lemon on his birthday day, and that's a pretty good HOM candidate. But you've got to hope that Ryan Wagner and Miguel Olivo turn into Eck and Hartnett before the 2025 (or thereabouts) HOM elections arrive.

It would be cool if the birthday pages also included Negro Leaguers birthdates too, but Sean over at b-r.com probably has enough on his to-do list already. ; )

It would be cool if the birthday pages also included Negro Leaguers birthdates too, but Sean over at b-r.com probably has enough on his to-do list already. ; )

Anyone know what's on his to-do list? The site is unbelievably great as is, but the idea that improvements are in queue has me salivating a bit.

I'm about 99% sure that more detailed ballpark info will be coming to BR, probably when the 2004 stats are updated....

"Wes' round-tripper left him one shy of the team lead; Earl Averill and Odell Hald each had eight through that point in the season. Averill had 548 at-bats, Hale 296 and Ferrell just 92! Municipal Stadium was not an easy place to hit home runs. Adjusting to the field had caused havoc with Averill's ability to hit the ball out of the park. Though he was the club's leader with 11 home runs in 1933 (two were inside-the-park), Averill hit just five over-the-fence homers in Municipal Stadium and four on the road. All ten of Hale's home runs came on the road and one of Joe Vosmik's three home runs in Municipal was inside-the-park. Ferrell hit three home runs at home and four on the road. Even the great Babe Ruth, though slowing down, never managed a four-bagger in Municipal Stadium in two and a half seasons as a visiting player. 'Babe Ruth has given up trying to hit a home run in the stadium,' noted The Sporting News at the end of the season. 'In the Yankees' games in Cleveland he shortened his grip and attempted to poke his hits through the infield.'

"All of this emphasizes Ferrell's ability to hit the long ball. 'On the basis of home runs per at bat,' said the Plain Dealer on September 8, 'Wes Ferrell is second only to Jimmy Foxx among four-base manufacturers of both leagues.'

"The next afternoon - September 9 - Ferrell debuted in left field, filling in for Vosmik who had suffered a broken hand a few days earlier. He did not pitch again in 1933, playing his final 13 games in the outfield. The results were a mixed bag..."

On the birthday thing, I get a bunch of outfielders for whom it's not obvious what we're going to do with them: Jimmy Wynn, Dale Murphy, Darryl Strawberry, Steve Finley (and Johnny Callison, Rupert Jones, Raul Mondesi). Best pitcher is Vern Law, best infielder is Denny Lyons. But no major league players (ever) with my exact birthdate.

"With the season winding down, the Plain Dealer, on September 6, began talking about moving Wes to the outfield. 'Now that Wesley Ferrell has demonstrated his ability to hit home runs on a handsome scale the boys are talking, unofficially of course, about turning him into an outfielder, even as Babe Ruth, Lefty O'Doul, Earl Webb, Bill Terry and some other notable hitters wer made over.'

"Yes, the age of pitching giants is coming back and Ferrell, with an impressive three-year start toward one of the greatest lifetime records in history, is in an ideal spot to reap a huge share of the glory he loves.'

"Ferrell isn't what you would call a flat failure. He is in the home stretch of what has been for him a dissapointing season, yet with yesterday's game in the record only one pitcher in the majors has won more games that he and that one, Grove, is working for the greatest club in the world.'

"Ferrell has averaged one homer every twelve trips to the plate. So has Ruth, although Wes has a hairline edge on the Babe if you want to carry it out a couple of decimal points. Gehrig has had to carry his bat to the dish thirteen times for every circuit drive he has made, while Averill has done no better than one out of eighteen.'

I hope you are saving these somewhere jonesy.

Things posted in these discussion threads will be very hard to find 'years' later when Ferrell becomes eligible.

One guy was born on my 'day,' 50 miles from me, and same height and weight (well, once I lose 10 pounds by Thanksgiving). But he only played in 4 major league games.
Bobby Richardson will be the first guy to even get the slightest consideration of a HOM vote, but more likely I wait for Gary Gaetti - not a HOMer but perhaps ballot-worthy for power/longevity vs crappy BA.
Ron Darling is the best pitcher, though Woody Williams wants to change that before he hangs 'em up.

For those who haven't already done this baseball-reference.com 'frivolity,' it's fun. But often you'll find that you don't have a single 1B, or only 6 Ps vs 8 SSs, or whatever. Pairing up with a spouse's birthdate usually can produce a modest 25-man roster, at least.

The only player born on my birthday (June 25) with a snowball's chance of going into the HOF or HoM is Carlos Delgado (though if Alejando Pena had been a little more durable...). BTW, there are six active players who share my birthday.

HOMers sharing the same birthday:

May 8, 1850/1858 Barnes & Brouthers
Jul 1, 1861/1857 Clarkson & Connor
Mar 3, 1860/1872 Ward & Keeler
Jan 5, 1870/1864 Dahlen & Caruthers

Didn't have the birthdates handy for the 5 Negro Leaguers, so there may be more.

Another way to field a roster is to add the "players who died on this day" to your list.

That gets me the decent 1B I need in Dee Fondy, who for some reason is the only MLBer to die on my birthday since 1977. That puts Matt Franco on the bench where I need him, and gives me at least 1000 ABS at every position (though only two total with at least 2000).
Not much other help from the dead pool, a couple of 800-1000 IP SPs for long relief and a weak-hitting third C.
But it would add a little spice to the birthday, for the ghoulishly inclined.

I'd apologize for contributing to the hijack, but it's Eddie Collins and a Negro Leaguer coin toss for election this year, so I think it's Ok this time around...

"Eagle Eye" died on my birthday. Lucky him! :-)

I've got Goose Goslin, and then a list full of crapholes. Maybe Tim McCarver gets a vote or two, but he still sucks.

Sadly, no one has yet made it from my birth day/year. And considering that I'm already in my prime season (27), the odds are starting to stack...

HOM-er Dan Brouthers died on my -39th birthday.

Unfortunately, Thurman Munson died on my 8th birthday. Makes my birthday's version of "Today is baseball history" a bit of a downer.

As for those born on my day (not just the exact date)... Tim Wakefield & Tom Burgmeier are two of the best. The best, of course, is the no-brainer no-doubter first-ballot HOM-er inductee: Bombo Rivera.

"Though Ferrell was recognized as a good hitter in his first two seasons, people were really starting to take note of his power in 1931. 'Take today's game with the White Sox, for instance,' wrote the Plain Dealer after he beat Chicago on August 31. 'Wes' contribution to a 15 to 5 Cleveland victory was two home runs which drove in five runs, a single in which he later scored and a sacrifice which advanced an eventual run.'

"Ferrell's two homers came in successive times at bat, the first in the fifth inning and the other in the sixth. His blow in the fifth was a prodigious smash into the upper left field stands more than 370 feet from home plate, and it also scored Kamm.'

"In addition to these slugging attainments Mr. Ferrell did not lose sight of the fact that he was out for his eighteenth victory of the season. There is no telling what he could have done if pressed, but he was content to hold the Sox to sih hits and five unearned runs.' One of the Chicago runs, in fact, was counted as earned despite the fact that two errors by the Clevland infield contributed to all of the scoring, four runs coming in the bottom of the eighth when Wes had a thirteen run lead. The only debit on his tally sheet was seven walks. Unable to count on his fastball, Ferrell was relying more and more on the curve ball and it was costing him control. Walter Johnson publicly stated that he thought that Ferrell was making a mistake by not using his heater."

"Wesley's next start came against Herb Pennock in Yankee Stadium on July 17 where he pitched and batted the Indians to a 2-1 victory. He allowed just three hits and struck out Joe Sewell - the game's toughest man to fan - and Babe Ruth back to back in the opening frame. The first New York safety came when Ruth deposited a fourth inning home run into the right field seats to erase Cleveland's 1-0 lead. A fifth inning single by Dickey and a short flair dumped by Ruth into center in the sixth were the other two hits. Wes resolved the contest in the seventh, swinging, 'with everything he had a shot one a mile a minute into the covered stands near the left field line. The game was called after a 45-minute rain delay in the ninth. 'There was no denyhing the merits of Ferrell's moundsmanship,' wrote the New York Times. 'There was also no denying Ferrell's power with the bat, for he knocked the ball far into the left-field stands."

"Wes' fast ball was back and evident for all to see on June 21 when he beat Alvin Crowder and the Nationals 3-1, allowing seven hits and two passes. With the score knotted at one in the seventh, Wes blasted a towering shot over the screen in far right center. 'If any remnat of the arm trouble that has plagued Ferrell all season was present yesterday he managed to keep it well under cover,' noted the Plain Dealer. 'Certainly it didn't prevent him from trowing some the fastest balls that have blazed out of any pitcher the Indisns have met this summer."

"Wes' fifteenth win was a9-4 victory over the Browns in a doubleheader in St. Louis on August 2. 'The opener was a pretty pitching duel between Ferrell and Gray for five innings,' wrote Cobbledick. 'At the end of that time the count stood at two-all, but it was never close after that for the Indians broke loose from the reservation in the sixth and scored five runs, the big blow being Ferrell's homer with two on.' At the plate Ferrell was perfect with a homer, a single, two walks, two runs scored and three driven in."

Aug 16 (birth and death dates combined)

RF Babe Ruth
CF Earl Averill/Baby Doll Jacobson
LF Gene Woodling
SS Ed McKean
3B Jerry Denny/Hick Carpenter/Willie Jones
2B ?
1B Mike Jorgensen
Ca Johnny Roseboro
SP Tiny Bonham
SP Rick Reed
SP Hank Robinson
SP Don Rudolph
RP Xavier Hernandez
Cl Al Holland

One of the third-basemen will have to shift to 2nd (Carpenter or Denny?) and Ruth may also have to pitch once in a while, but it's a good everyday lineup.

Wesley's next start...

Are we going to go through this for all 374 of his games?

"A much-anticipated duel between Wes and Schoolboy Rowe was delayed twice by rain and when the teams finally met in Cleveland on May 17, it was Tommy Bridges who toed the rubber for the Tigers. Wes allowed seven hits - four coming in the fourth when Detroit scored both their runs - in taking a 3-2 decision in ten innings.

"Ferrell,' wrote Cobbledick, 'contributed something more than a classy bit of pitching to his cause, for he also hit the longest home run ever made in the stadium by any player on any club - a sock that a Ruth or a Foxx would have been proud to include in his collection.'

"It was the first hit of the game for either side, coming in the third inning with the bases empty. It traveled to the remotest corner of the covered stands in left field, landing a half dozen rows from the front.'

"After the game General Manager Billy Evans of the Cleveland club was curious enough to order an accurate measurement of the distance from home plate to the spot when the ball struck the seats. It was found to be just 450 feet.'

Wesley's next start...

Are we going to go through this for all 374 of his games?




Certainly. Its the quest for a truer understanding of the game that we are all striving for, isn't it? I believe that the only true way to measure value is a game by game accounting.

I know I am going overboard, but dammit, I'm having fun. My wife thinks I nuts and none of the guys I play wiffleball with know who Wes Ferrell is.

Greatest baseball quote I ever heard came from Mike "The Wrong" Maddux, by the way, who once said about his brother Greg, "Yeah, but he carry my jock in wiffleball."

"Yeah, but he can't carry my joke in wiffleball."

Not about birthdays . . .

Howie asked:

What years are we listing for Lloyd, Williams, and Torriente, in terms of fulltime, parttime, and token appearances, and for what teams?

Here's what I have, drawing on Riley and Holway:

Lloyd
1906 Cuban X-Giants part-time
1907-09 Philadelphia Giants full-time
1910 Chicago Leland Giants ft
1911-13 New York Lincoln Giants ft
1914-17 Chicago American Giants ft
1918 Brooklyn Royal Giants ft
1919 Atlantic City Bacharach Giants ft
1920 Brooklyn Royal Giants ft
1921 Columbus Buckeyes ft
1922 Atlantic City Bacharach Giants ft
1923 Hilldale Daisies ft
1924-25 Atlantic City Bacharach Giants ft
1926-30 New York Lincoln Giants ft
1931-32 Atlantic City Bacharach Giants pt

Lloyd outlasted several of the teams he played or at one time or another . . .

Joe Williams -- all seasons full time
1910 Chicago Giants
1911-23 New York Lincoln Giants
1924 Brooklyn Royal Giants
1925-32 Homestead Grays

A remarkably stable career for a top Negro-League star of his era.

Cristobal Torriente -- all seasons full time except 1928 pt
1913-16 Cuban Stars
1917 Cuban Stars and The All-Nations
1918 Cuban Stars
1919-25 Chicago American Giants
1926 KC Monarchs
1927-28 Detroit Stars

Neither about birthdays nor about Wes Ferrell

but about The Ghost, Oliver Marcelle

He's been mentioned a couple of times recently, and I'll add in on the call for a thread for him.

I've started looking at him, and he looks like a borderline player whom we should discuss pretty carefully.

Without having tried to create estimated win shares for him yet, I'd say that he looks like a 3rd-base version of Dave Bancroft: typically a league-average hitter in terms of OPS, with gold-glove defense. The question to be answered is: is that combination, with some significant peak value from his best hitting years, enough to make him a HoMer?

I'm doubtful, because I don't see Bancroft as a HoMer, but I'm struggling with what to do with the rather unimpressive crop of middle infielders (aside from Hornsby & Frisch) from the the late teens through the early thirties.

Among 3rd basemen

His closest comp in terms of career shape among 3rd basemen is Joe Dugan, but he was better than Dugan in every aspect of the game, and his career was the length of Dugan's not because his skills declined early but because part of his nose was bitten off.

The other third basemen to whom he needs to be compared are, of course, Pie Traynor and Judy Johnson. His career was the shortest of the three. He was perhaps the best defensively--definitely better than Traynor, probably better than Johnson--and in the middle on offense--probably a better hitter than Johnson, but definitely not as good as Traynor. I don't know whether any of them merit election.

Pie Traynor is a guy I could be real interested in. He went from being once considered the best thirdbaseman of all time to a sabermetric whipping boy. I did a little on line digging, thnking he might be a worthy subject for a biography and found out that his name has been trademarked. One website sounded very legal. Odd because I don't think he ever had any children.

At this rate, I smell a Wes backlash.

Let's call a 12-hour moratorium, or something.

At this rate, I smell a Wes backlash.

I doubt anybody here is that immature to take it out on a long deceased ballplayer. :-)

Seriously, I have enjoyed the posts myself, but it probably would be more beneficial to wait until Wes Ferrell is a candidate and a page is set up for him. That way, jonesy's anecdotes can strike when the iron is hot.

He went from being once considered the best thirdbaseman of all time to a sabermetric whipping boy.

While he was definitely overrated as a hitter, he was a terrific thirdbaseman who will be at the top of my ballot.

We definitely need Judy Johnson for the All-Johnson team. I thing we'd rather have Judy playing 3B than Howard. Howard can either be used as a utility IF and PH, or you could switch him to 1st displacing Deron. (I have no idea what to do with Cliff and Alex.)

One last post since I am a nice roll. This is right after Ferrell tossed his not hitter in 1931.

"John McGraw always claimed, and rightfully so, that no man could be a high class major league pitcher without a good fast ball,' wrote former major lague hurler Al Demaree in his syndicated baseball colum on May 5. 'Cy Young, Mathewson, Johnson, Alexander and Wes Ferrell, the great Cleveland righthander of today had and have great fastballs.'

"Joe Williams, writing in the World-Telegram on the same day, said, 'You can add young Mr. Wesley Ferrell to your list of supremely self-confident athletes - along with the Cobbs, the Hagens, the Tunneys and the Tildens. Mr. Ferrell is good, knows it and admits it. Everybody,' continued Williams, 'tabbed him right off as the best young pitching prospect since Christy Mathewson's time...they call him the Second Matty."

"John Kieran of the Times said the late Miller Huggins only had to watch Ferrell twice before declaring him the best young hurler he has seen since Matty.'

"Ferrell has come fast and is climbing high,' continued Kieran, 'Grove and Earnshaw are great pitchers, but it was a slower climb for them and they have always had a strong team behind them. Grove had to learn control before he became a star in the major leagues. But Ferrell came up and stepped out as a winning pitcher from the very start. The test of his caliber was that he kept going and has climbed since.'

"Ferrell had gone 46-17 since the middle of 1929 and was drawing comparisons to Cy Young and Walter Johnson as well as Christy Mathewson. He was just 23-years old with unlimited potential. Speculation was that he would shatter all existing pitching records, but what shattered instead was the Carolinian's right arm. The process was gradual but the first crack was just days away.

"Wes noticed a tooth-like pain in his right shoulder while warming up to pitch against the Red Sox on May 8. He worked to three batters, allowing a double to the center field wall, a double off the right field screen and a double down the left field line. He glanced at this manager and walked off the mound.

"Peck had the Tribe in first-place but was continuously tinkering with his infield. Jonah Goldman, who had flunked out as the Tribe's shortstop the previous season, was brought back to replace Hunnefield and third baseman Willie Kamm came over from the White Sox in exchange for Lew Fonseca, allowing Eddie Morgan to play first base full time. None of the changes would matter, though, if Wes couldn't pitch. 'Cleveland, I don't believe,' said Walter Johnson, 'will be as dangerous all season as they have been figured. Outside of Wes Ferrell, they lack pitching and the Indian infield is not any too strong.'

Well, since I brought it up.... I went through Riley and found the birthdates for a whole bunch of Negro Leaguers.

Good news for Jim D.: your second base dillema is over: Geo. Scales born 8/16/00.

Philly Booster: Ted Page (1903) and Pelayo Chacon (1889)

But sadly, no dice for Karl Magnus and David Foss. Here's the list, it's not complete, and a lot of birthdates just aren't known, so a fellow might not be on this list because of that. If you'd like me to look one up that's not here, let me know!

1/1/00 webster mcdonald
1/14/07 chet brewer
1/17/90 luis santop
1/19/98 fats jenkins
1/20/75 c.i. taylor
1/29/03 frog redus
2/1/84 candy jim taylor
2/10/00 jake stevens
2/20/92 john donaldson
2/23/08 ray brown
2/27/12 hilton smith
2/27/90 dobie moore
2/28/99 jud wilson
3/8/88 frank wickware
3/13/95 alejandro oms
3/15/10 jimmy crutchfield
3/15/90 dizzy dismukes
3/16/58 bud fowler
3/19/87 jose mendez
3/27/00 effa manley
3/31/00 mule suttles
4/4/96 andy cooper
4/6/86 smokey joe williams
4/25/84 pop lloyd
5/2/09 george giles
5/6/13 slim jones
5/8/01 turkey stearnes
5/17/03 cool papa bell
5/19/99 newt allen
5/25/05 martin dihigo
6/6/14 wild bill wright
6/7/93 nat rogers
6/8/95 bill drake
6/10/05 vic harris
6/12/04 bill foster
6/12/68 sol white
6/15/91 connie rector
6/20/90 cum posey
6/24/97 ollie marcelle
7/1/88 ben taylor
7/7/02 double duty radcliffe
7/7/06 satchell paige
7/10/98 dick lundy
7/26/05 alex radcliffe
7/27/97 biz mackey
7/28/89 bullet rogan
8/1/65 frank grant
8/10/05 willie wells
8/16/00 george scales
8/18/86 steelarm taylor
8/27/06 luis tiant sr.
8/29/97 rats henderson
8/31/13 ray dandridge
9/2/02 rap dixon
9/5/89 bingo demoss
9/8/07 buck leonard
9/13/77 walter ball
9/15/07 bill byrd
9/16/96 eggleston
9/17/03 sam streeter
9/17/79 rube foster
9/18/05 sam bankhead
9/22/03 ted page
9/22/89 pelayo chacon
9/27/95 jelly gardner
10/2/13 gene benson
10/7/57 fleet walker
10/14/86oscar charleston
10/18/94dave malarcher
10/20/10sammy hughes
10/25/03bobbie robinson
10/26/99judy johnson
10/27/99newt joseph
10/30/16leon day
11/2/96 heavy johnson
11/6/92 jimmy lyons
11/7/89 spots poles
11/13/11buck o'neill
11/25/96clint thomas
11/30/04dick seay
12/17/03florida trent
12/21/11josh gibson sr
12/22/85abe manley
12/25/12quincy troupe

So, I'm left with Don Mattingly, Dave Bancroft, and 30 AAAA players. Alas . . .

--Andy "April 20" Siegel

I'm struggling with what to do with the rather unimpressive crop of middle infielders (aside from Hornsby & Frisch) from the the late teens through the early thirties.

Chris, how do you see Dick Lundy shaking out in comparison to the group of middle infielders? Closer to Frisch or to Bancroft?

Okay, so my players' list may be week, but with Tommy Lasorda, Larry Dierker, Ken Aspromonte, and Bob Lemon, I won't be doing too shabby over in the Managers' Wing!

Chris, how do you see Dick Lundy shaking out in comparison to the group of middle infielders? Closer to Frisch or to Bancroft?

If the i9s projections on Lundy are about usual in their relation to the actual data, I'd say he's closer to Bancroft than to Frisch, but probably enough better than Bancroft to be a probable HoMer.

Frisch may not be a first-ballot HoMer because he'll become eligible in a year with Oscar Charleston, Bill Foster, and Mickey Cochrane, (and Lundy) but he'll finish in the top 5 for sure, so there's a lot of room between him and Bancroft, who will probably place at 35-40 in my rankings next year.

On the subject of Negro-League infielders from the 1920s who should bear serious consideration in the next few years, John Beckwith should definitely be in that group. He'll be eligible in 1940.

On the subject of Negro-League infielders from the 1920s who should bear serious consideration in the next few years, John Beckwith should definitely be in that group. He'll be eligible in 1940.

John Beckwith = Dick Allen?

Riley writes something to the effect that althoug Beckwith was super talented, he was a tough teammate to get along with and that his performance followed his mood (and his level of inebriation) and made him a lot of enemies.

Jud Wilson might fit in the 20s infielders group too, though he might be sort of a generational tweener. Career started in 1922 but he played forever (retired at age 46 in 1945) so he seems less like he's part of the same group. But Beckwith played in the middle of the diamond IIRC, whereas i think Wilson was always a corner man.

HOMers sharing the same birthday:

May 8, 1850/1858 Barnes & Brouthers
Jul 1, 1861/1857 Clarkson & Connor
Mar 3, 1860/1872 Ward & Keeler
Jan 5, 1870/1864 Dahlen & Caruthers
Sep 17, 1850/1879 Sutton & Foster

Still no birthdates for Grant Johnson or Pete Hill.

Geo. Scales born 8/16/00

George Scales! Good deal. If neither of the 1880's 3B-men could turn the DP, that team's fallback was Terry Shumpert at 2B.

The Nov. 26 birthday team isn’t bad at all. It’s led by two HOFers-who-will-probably-never-be-HOMers, Hugh Duffy and Lefty Gomez. Every position is covered, and I can fill a 25-man roster with guys who played at least 3 years. Fair amount of dreck among the backups, but...

c- Brian Schneider, Jeff Torborg, Bud Sheely
1b- Fred Tenney
2b- Harold Reynolds, Jorge Orta, John Kerr
3b- Richie Hebner
ss- Eddie Miller
lf- Indian Bob Johnson, Jim Canavan
cf- Hugh Duffy, Mike Slattery
rf- Bob Elliott
sp- Lefty Gomez, Chuck Finley, Mike Moore, Larry Gura, Bob Walk
rp- Jay Howell, Bob Lee, Ben Wade, Ron Meridith, Minnie Rojas, John Parrish

Okay, Elliott’s really a 3b, but he played over 400g in rf.

Well, since everyone else is doing it.

Players with either a birthday or death day on 2/24

C - Charlie Bennett
1b - Eddie Murray
2b - Max Bishop
3B - Mike Lowell
SS - Jack Glasscock
OF - Tony Conigliaro
OF - Nick Esasky (Played 98 games in OF)
OF - Honus Wagner (Short an outfielder, need to move him over)

P - Eddie Plank
P - Wilbur Cooper
P - Bugs Raymond
P - Bronson Arroyo

Not bad. Very good offense, but could use some pitchers.

I have to say, I think Rick A. is the winner. There being 365 days and only 213ish HOMers, including birth and death days you should on average have just over 1. Rick has 5 (assuming Murray) one of them an all-time top 10, plus a near-miss in Cooper and a could-have-been in Tony C.

How many HoMers do you think Jimmy Wynn, Dale Murphy, Darryl Strawberry, and Steve Finley add up to? About 1?

My team leans heavily modern:
C - Tim Blackwell/Ned Yost/Al DeVormer
1B - Matt Franco 1-3
2B - Bobby Richardson/Bill Nagel 2-1-3
3B - Gary Gaetti/Jim Finigan 3-2
SS - Luis Gomez/Mike Phillips S-2-3
OF - Terry Harper
OF - Ron Roenicke
OF - Estel Crabtree
OF - Juan Sosa

SP - Ron Darling
SP - Tex Carleton
SP - Woody Williams
SP - Jim Shaw
SP - Atley Donald
SP - Silvio Martinez
SP - Paul Mitchell
SR - George Ferguson
RP - Fred Lasher
RP - Luis DeLeon
RP - Jeff Tam

I'm looking to move an SP or two for: a closer, a 1B, and an OF who can hit.
Gaetti has twice as many HRs as ALL of my other hitters combined who were ever born on this day..

How many HoMers do you think Jimmy Wynn, Dale Murphy, Darryl Strawberry, and Steve Finley add up to? About 1?

Jimmy Wynn looks good. I'm not so sure about the others.

Rick A., to be fair, shouldn't your personal team consist of players born on your birthdate and who died on your death date?

Re. the upcoming IFers, I share a concern that we may overlook the non-NBs. So I will share my list of 2Bs, SSs and 3Bs eligible through 1939 that I compiled back in 1924 in anticipation of the now-ended drought.

2B--assuming Collins is not eligible shortly
1. Childs
2. Doyle
3. Dunlap
4. Monroe
5. Evers
6. Sol White
7. Pfeffer
8. Pratt
9. Huggins
10. Danny Murphy

SSs--assuming Pop is not long for this ballot
1. Jennings
2. Dick Lundy--yes, I think Lundy was a superstar
3. Bancroft
4. Joe Sewell
5. Dobie Moore--the black Jennings (massive peak)
6. Long
7. Tinker
8. Maranville
9. Art Fletcher--better than you think
10. Pelayo Chacon

3B
1. Groh
2. Williamson
3. Leach
4. Marcelle--better than Judy Johnson from what I've seen
5. Bill Bradley
6. McGraw
7. Heinie Zimmerman
8. Art Devlin
9. Billy Nash
10. Lave Cross--#4 career but #13 peak

Among all of these guys, the ones I would be concerned would get lost in the shuffle would be Lundy, Bancroft (because he is part of such a strong cohort) and Marcelle.

Quick post here so I can post an official ballot later. The move to Seattle is parially complete. Can't move into our house until prob Nov. 1 because of a rentback to the sellers - long story. Almost all my baseball stuff is in storage until we move in. Graduate Tax Program starts on Monday so I won't be able to do the big pitcher profiles for awhile, yet. And I guess I should change the name to Kelly from SD. That can wait.

Sorry don't have much time for reasons. Have to go off my previous posts.

1. Eddie Collins
2. "Pops" Lloyd
3. "Smoky Joe" Williams
4. Welch
5. Torriente
6. Browning
7. Leach
8. Groh
9. Childs
10. Duffy
11. Veach
12. Burns (NL one)
13. Beckley
14. Coveleski
15. Carey

Carey will be on the ballot, but I have to figure out where. I am not sure where he will fit with Veach/Burns/Duffy. Great stolen bases, triples, defense, walks, times on base totals.

There being 365 days and only 213ish HOMers,

Actually, 366 days. You forgot February 29th (Leap Year), which already has a HOMer (John Murphy's favorite one ;-)) as well as Al Rosen, who has a pretty good peak argument, and may also get war credit.

OK, the Ron Wargo Birthday team. (4/12)

C: Mike Macfarlane
1B: Paul Lo Duca (on the same day, no less)
2B: Danny Garcia
3B: Terry Harmon
SS: Eric McNair
OF: Walt Moryn
OF: Buster Hoover
OF: Sammy Vick

P: Vic Willis
P: Addie Joss
P: Johnny Antonelli
P: Reb Russell
P: Vicente Romo

Hitting coach, since we'll need it: Charlie Lau

Sunnyday2,

Thanks for reposting those lists. They are quite helpful.

Lundy won't have a chance to get lost yet, though, as he is not eligible until 1943.

I'm most curious about the order of the rest of the shortstops. Jennings at #1 is easy, but why Bancroft, then Sewell, then Moore? I have them ordered the other way round, but I'm hardly set on that . . .

Re. Bancroft and Sewell, they are of course very close. Bancroft played 1915-30, Sewell 1920-33 so any comparison of actual batting numbers is very misleading, but the reason I mention it is because I give Bancroft an adjustment of the short seasons of 1918-19. With that adjustment, their career WS come out:

Sewell 277
Bancroft 276

And from there it is a classic case whether you like offense or defense. B, with bonus, earns 160 WS at bat, 108 with glove. S = 188 at bat, 89 with glove. Bancroft is an A fielder, Sewell an A-.

I like both, but I am a peak voter, so consider:

3 yr non-consecutive (James #)--B 84 S 84
3 yr consecutive (how I measure peak)--B leads 84-76
5 yr consecutive (James preferred)--S 125-115
5 yr non-cons (my preferred)--S 131-128

So the notion that Sewell had a higher peak is a bit of a misconception. Again, they're pretty equal, though James himself has Sewell #23 and Bancroft #28.

BTW on TPR they are also close, Bancroft 36.2 Sewell 35.2

As to the raw numbers:

Bancroft 8,009 PA, Sewell 7,974, very close. The idea that Sewell had a higher peak (though not accurate) is perhaps related to the fact that he played 14 years vs. Bancroft's 16. B was certainly not as durable as S, who was in fact off the charts durable for a middle IF, while B had several years of <130 games. But then again, Sewell didn't start play til 1920, and then played >600 games at 3B. B played 1873 games at SS to Sewell's 1216, so Joe had to hit better to even be close (and of course he did). And B ended up with an equal to slightly better peak even with his sometimes injury shortened seasons.

Bancroft is of course an all-time fielder: #2 chances/G, #10 assists, #3 A/G, #6 fielding runs (all for any position). Sewell is #24 on two of those measures, not in the top 25 on the other two.

Then there's WARP. I use adjWARP1 (or used to, these are the old numbers, I quit using WARP because I cannot keep updating my spreadsheets all the time). But on adjWARP1 I come up with Bancroft better for 3 years, Sewell for 5, and TPR does, too.

For prime, I use a floating prime depending on the player's record (how long did he stay witin 20 percent of his floating, established level. Bancroft's prime on WS, WARP and TPR is 10-12-11 years, Sewell's is 9-9-13. Sewell has higher rates on WS and TPR, Bancroft on WARP. Not much to chose from.

As of last fall, Bancroft was ahead on career adjWARP1 by a wide margin 127-106 and maybe that's the final tie-breaker for me. I mean they are so close on everything else.... But then I have no idea what the new "improved" WARP numbers might show.

So in summary, I just think that Bancroft was a historically good fielder and an average hitter (pretty good for a gold glove SS) while Sewell was just a very good fielder and a very good hitter. IOW taking their strongest suits, Bancroft was a better fielder than Sewell was a hitter. So that's where I landed.

As for Moore, yes, a Jennings like peak but vs. different competition. I like Moore a lot but I think you've said yourself that his MLE career is probably only about 8-9 years. All of that would be prime. For peak I see Moore as Joe Cronin at 100 WS (3 years) and 150 (5) vs. B and S around 80 and 120.

For career it's clearly (in my mind) Bancroft 276 WS-Sewell 277-Moore 225 at the very best. So it comes down to prime. Do you like:

Bancroft ~11 years at 23 WS
Sewell ~10 years at 24 WS
Moore ~8-9 years at 30 WS. It probably matters whether you project 8 years vs. 9 at that point.

Very close. I'm confortable with Bancroft having a slight edge over Sewell, but need to think about Moore some more.

**Sample ballot**

I emailed John Murphy about the possibility of gaining the privilege to vote for the Hall of Merit and he told me to submit a ballot on this thread. Since I have to do so by Monday I have been scrambling around and trying to be as accurate as possible. And while I don’t yet have a top 50, like most of you seem to, I do have a top 20 right now and am pretty comfortable with the accuracy of this list. I would love any suggestions and hope you guys enjoy.

Oh, and before I start I tend to favor peak value over career value. Enjoy.


1. Eddie Collins - If I am forced to pick I will usually take the guy that is the sure thing, i.e. the player with which we have the most data, over the one who is not. Hence, Collins edges ahead of Lloyd and Williams for the top spot on my ballot. 2nd best second baseman ever in my opinion and the one with the best career value. He was outstanding for roughly as long as GVH and Beckley were good.

2. John Henry “Pop” Lloyd
3. Smokey Joe Williams
4. Cristobal Torriente - Next comes the three Negro leaguers, making my ballot a very predictable one so far. I have them ranked the way they are because I am confident that Lloyd was the best NeL SS ever, and maybe the best SS ever, while at the same time am confident that Williams is a closer challenger to Paige (my best NeL pitcher) than Torriente is to Charleston. The way I see it Williams was similar, though not as good as, Walter Johnson or Pete Alexander while Torriente was similar to Roberto Clemente and I would rank Johnson/Alexander over Clemente. As an aside, where is Torriente generally placed on the field? I always thought of him as a center fielder but see many put him as a right fielder.

These are the four player that I feel most strongly about and there is a drop down to the fifth player on my ballot, which is...

5. Heinie Groh - Is this too high? Maybe, but after him there aren’t any guys that I truly like and would really fight for. Maybe I am overly impressed with the fact that he played a position without many standouts and hence gave him an additional shove. However, I like him more than Leach, if for no other reason than Leach spending half his career in the outfield, and there aren’t any other guys I like more than him.

6. Max Carey - Sizable from Groh. Great base stealer and defensive center fielder. I9's show him to be as good a hitter as Ben Taylor (whom I gave a lot of consideration) but he played a tougher defensive position and played it at least as well if not better. Things will be interesting in a few years when Roush and Combs are on the ballot as I see all three as very comparable players, especially Roush.

7. Stan Coveleski - My second pitcher. Maybe the toughest part of this project was to compare pitchers to position players, something I don’t do too often. I originally had him paired with Mays but the more I looked at the two of them the more I began to like Coveleski. In fact I now have Mays as my sixth best pitcher, with Coveleski as my second, which to me is evidence of a gap. Not a big gap, mind you, but one nonetheless.

8. Lip Pike - So after saying that I like ‘objective candidates over ‘subjective’ ones, I go and make 4 of my top 8 subjective candidates, go figure. Not only best pre-NA player left but also best 19th century player IMHO. Win Shares doesnt’ really shed any light on him, sinec it starts in 1876, but 9.9 WARP3 in only 70 games in 1875 is just sick.

9. Hugh Duffy - Is he too high as well? As mentioned above I tend to favor peak over career value, so Duffy was the highest of my CF glut (excluding Carey obviously), over GVH, Ryan, and Browning. Actually Browning had the best peak, but the shortest career, Duffy was the best mix when peak is weighted more, I believe. The drop from Duffy to Browning isn’t much and Browning isn’t on my ballot so I am open to suggestions here.

10. Cupid Childs - I have him as the best middle infielder after Collins and Lloyd. When I looked at Childs, I realized that was a very similar player to Groh, so I asked myself If Groh is #5, why shouldn’t Childs be pushing for a top 10 spot. I couldn’t find an answer, so I put Childs at tenth. Plus I like fat guys. John Kruk for the 2001 ballot! :-P

continued...

11. George Van Haltren - In my first subjective ballot I had him seventh, but realized that his peak simply wasn’t high enough to warrant such a ranking. However, it is still very comparable to Ryan and he had more career value than Ryan did. The difference between him and Duffy is slim.

12. Jake Beckley - I originally had him 6th, but soon realized that his peak was even slower than GVH’s and GVH didn’t have much peak. Still a very long and very good career, I could see him putting him as high as eight or nine, but as a peak person I feel comfortable with him here.

13. Rube Waddell - Alright, not much career. I grouped him with Mendez as they both have careers where most of the value was tied up in five year stints (02-06 for Waddell and 10-14 for Mendez). Waddell career ERA+ was 134 while Mendez’ was either 119 or 113.8 (Newburg had 119 and Cobb had 113.8 on the Mendez thread). Add in that Mendez is a subjective candidate while he have plenty of data for Rube and that crazy sumbitch is my third best pitcher.

14. Jimmy Ryan - Maybe I am wrong in putting so many of the CF glut on my ballot, but I have him just below GVH, so this ranking makes sense to me.

15. Hughie Jennings - While outside of the years 1894-1898 Jennings wasn’t a HOM level player by any means (decent in 1892 though), during those years, dude was money. As I have stated ad nauseam I love peak and Jennings had a very nice peak. It’s the rest of his career that keeps him down so low.

Since this is my trial ballot I will explain my next five as well.

16. Jose Mendez - As mentioned in the Waddell comment I have these two guys neck and neck with Waddell just a tad higher. I do think that Mendez had more career value, plus he didn’t chase fire engines, which has to go in his favor right?

17. Tommy Leach - This maybe too low if I am going to put Groh fifth, but I don’t exactly know what to do with him. His time in the outfield is a negative when comparing him to Groh and I am still figuring out where to put him in comparison to GVH, Ryan, et al. He is likely to move up in the future (maybe even way up) but I am playing it cautious here.

18. Pete Browning - Fantastic hitter, best of the CF glut, but also the worst career value and Win Shares doesn’t favor him like it does GVH. Does this mean I put too much stock in Win Shares? Maybe, but I am confident this is where he belongs. However, one reason that I don’t have him or GVH ranked too high, like many others, is that I am hesitant to rate a player that high when he has lots of comparables. If there are plenty of players like him how special could he have been? Does have a nice peak though, 4 10+ WARP1 Seasons, compared to 5 combined for Duffy, Ryan, and GVH.

19. Bill Monroe - In reading his discussion thread many of you seemed high on him. I don’t think he was as good as Grant of Johnson though. I have him slotted in between Childs and Evers (my second and fourth ranked number 4's, with Doyle fifth) am I am comfortable with that.

20. Clark Griffith - I guess I am just not a fan of those 19th century guys whose value is concentrated in the large amounts of innings they pitched. I will need to look into this more, but, for instance, BP’s translations have him pitching fewer innings than Mays in similar length careers. BP is not the end all be all, but it is enough to tell me that those high IP were mostly a function of his era. He does beat Mays in DERA and translated ERA, though, so I have him rated higher. However, Mickey Welch, whom many of you rate highly, is barely on my radar screen.

Barely missed (in no real order): Bresnahan, Mays, Chance, Taylor, Doyle, Leever

Looks good, jschmeagol! As far as I'm concerned, you can post it on the Ballot thread anytime that you're ready. Glad to have you as a member!

Um, yeah, I haven't checked the thread in awhile. I've got 2 HoFers (1 pending) born on my date - Billy Williams and Wade Boggs. No one on 6/15/71, but 1 year later saw Andy Pettite, Ramiro Mendoza, and Tony Clark. Also do OK on the death date - Sam Crawford, Judy Johnson, and Happy (Well not on THAT day) Chandler.

Yeah, the death day stuff really fills out the roster.
Take July 5, with a ho-hum OF of Gary Mathews, Beals Becker, and Curt Blefary. Throw in Ted Williams and Pete Fox, and NOW you're talking.

My wife didn't have a birthday 1B who played more than 2 G, or a 2B who played more than 11, but with the deathday guys she's got a pretty respectable collection.

On the birthday thing - it might be cool to use the all-time Diamond Mind disk to start a league where you only get to use players from your birth/death day, it'd be fun . . . not sure how many players are actually on the disk though.

My birthday squad:

Manager - Frank Selee
1b - Mike Hargrove
2b - Kid Gleason
ss - Toby Harrah
3b - Steve Ontiveros
lf
cf
rf - Tommy Griffith
c - Parke Wilson

ci - Dick Hoblitzel
inf - Lee Tannehill
mi - Snuffy Stirnweiss
of - Mark Sweeney

sp - Steve Rogers
sp - Gil Heredia
sp - Wayne Garland
sp - Doc Newton
rp - Ed Vande Berg
rp - Bud Byerly
rp - Armando Almanza

Adding the death days helps!

My birthday squad:

Manager - Frank Selee
1b - Mike Hargrove
2b - Kid Gleason
ss - Toby Harrah
3b - Steve Ontiveros
lf
cf - Jimmy Ryan
rf - Tommy Griffith
c - Gus Mancuso

inf - Charlie Comiskey
inf - Dick Hoblitzel
inf - Lee Tannehill
inf - Ed Lennox
inf - Snuffy Stirnweiss
of - Mark Sweeney

sp - Steve Rogers
sp - Gil Heredia
sp - Wayne Garland
sp - Bill Bevens
sp - Doc Newton

rp - Ed Vande Berg
rp - Bud Byerly
rp - Armando Almanza
rp - Bud Podbielan

I picked up Jimmy Ryan! But the rotation is brutal still and I'd have to stick Mike Hargrove in RF and put Charlie Comiskey or Dick Hoblitzel at 1B.

The only player of note that was born on April 13 was Herman Long.

No wonder I was his biggest supporter for a long time!