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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Tuesday, December 07, 2004

1940 Ballot Results: Bullet Joe Rogan and Lip Pike Are the Latest Hall of Merit Enshrinees!

In his first year on the ballot, Kansas City Monarch pitching and hitting star Bullet Joe Rogan was elected with 79% of the votes to win the first spot this “year.”

With a record low percentage of the votes for an inductee (40%), perennial candidate Lip Pike squeaked past Joe Sewell to take the second spot. One of the very first baseball professionals, Pike waited a record 43 “years” until his ultimate election (he was one of the Hall’s very first candidates in 1898)!

Rounding out the top ten were returnees Eppa Rixey, Hughie Jennings, Clark Griffith, George Sisler, Jake Beckley, Tommy Leach (his first time with this group) and George Van Haltren.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Bullet Joe Rogan         978   47  22  9  4  2  2  3  1  3                 1   
 2    3  Lip Pike                 496   26   7  5  5  3  1        2  1        2         
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3    4  Joe Sewell               483   35   3  4  4  1     4  2  1     1  3  3  2  3  4
 4    6  Eppa Rixey               463   35      4  2  3  3  3  4     1  3  1  2  2  4  3
 5    5  Hughie Jennings          421   25   5  1  4  4  3  1  1     2     2  1  1      
 6    7  Clark Griffith           411   29   2  2  3  2  1  3  3     4     4  1  2  1  1
 7    8  George Sisler            406   30   1  3  1  3  3  2  2  2     2  1  5  2  1  2
 8    9  Jake Beckley             402   27   2  3  1  1  3  4  2  3  2  1  1  2        2
 9   13  Tommy Leach              352   28            4  2  1  3  5  4  4  1  1     1  2
10   11  George Van Haltren       345   22   1  5  1  1  3  2  2  2  1           1  1  2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   10  Rube Waddell             339   26   1  1  1  1  2     3  1  5  6  2  1  1  1   
12   16  Hugh Duffy               300   22      1  2  2  2  1  3  3  3  2     1        2
13   14  Mickey Welch             297   16   4  4  2  1        1  1  1  1              1
14  n/e  John Beckwith            284   23   1  2  1     4     1  1     3  2     1  2  5
15   15  Pete Browning            281   20      2  3  1  3  3     1     1        5  1   
16   12  Cupid Childs             276   22      1  1  1  3  3  1  1     2  2  1  5  1   
17   17  Edd Roush                268   22         1     2  4  1  1  4  1  3  2  3      
18   18  Cannonball Dick Redding  249   22         1  1        3  3  3  3     3  3  1  1
19  n/e  Burleigh Grimes          230   19         2  3  1  1  1  3     1     1  1  1  4
20   22  Wally Schang             192   16   1     1        2     1  3  2  1  2  1  1  1
21   23  Larry Doyle              190   14      1  1  2  1     1  1  3  1  1     1  1   
22   19  Roger Bresnahan          187   17         1  1  1     1  1  1  3  2  1  2  1  2
23   20  José Méndez              185   17            2  3     1        1  1  3  1  3  2
24  n/e  Sam Rice                 184   14         2  2  2  1     1     1  1  2  1  1   
25   21  Charley Jones            173   12   1     2  1  1     2  1  1     1  1  1      
26   24  Jimmy Ryan               161   13      1  1  1  1     1     2     2  1     2  1
27   27  Harry Hooper             149   13      1  1        1  1  1  1     2        4  1
28   25  Bill Monroe              147   14            2     1        1  3  1     2  3  1
29   26  Bobby Veach              113    9      1        2           2  1  1        1  1
30   28  George J. Burns          100    9                  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  2      
31   29  Vic Willis                92   10                  1     1     1  1     2  3  1
32   31  Dobie Moore               90   10                  1           1  2  2     2  2
33   33  Fielder Jones             77    7            1        1  1           2  1  1   
34   32  John McGraw               74    5               1  3     1                     
35   30  Carl Mays                 70    7                  1     1  1     1     1     2
36   34  Ben Taylor                70    6            1        1  1     1     1        1
37  n/e  Hack Wilson               68    5                     3  2                     
38   39  Gavy Cravath              63    5               1  1        1  1     1         
39T  35  Frank Chance              62    7                  1              1     2  3   
39T  36  Urban Shocker             62    7                        1        1  2  1  1  1
41   40  Wilbur Cooper             58    5         1              1        2        1   
42   37T Ed Cicotte                50    5            1                    1  1  1     1
43   41  Spotswood Poles           48    4            1     1                 1     1   
44   37T Rabbit Maranville         39    4                           1  1  1           1
45   45  Ed Konetchy               38    4                  1              1        1  1
46   42  Addie Joss                37    4                              1  1  1     1   
47   43  Ed Williamson             28    3                                 1  2         
48   56T Del Pratt                 27    2                     1  1                     
49   56T Jim McCormick             26    2                     1     1                  
50   44  Dave Bancroft             24    3                                 1     1     1
51   47T Lave Cross                24    2         1                                   1
52  n/e  Dolf Luque                21    2                     1                    1   
53   49  Ray Schalk                19    2                              1        1      
54   46  Jack Quinn                18    2                                 1     1      
55   51T Donie Bush                18    1         1                                    
56T  47T Tommy Bond                17    1            1                                 
56T  51T Fred Dunlap               17    1            1                                 
58   54T Tom York                  14    1                     1                        
59   54T Sam Leever                13    1                        1                     
60   50  Jack Fournier             12    1                           1                  
61   59  Ross Youngs                9    1                                    1         
62  n/e  Duke Farrell               6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Mike Griffin(58), Tony Mullane(60), Mike Tiernan(53).

 

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2004 at 02:10 AM | 62 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: December 07, 2004 at 02:54 AM (#1001891)
How many votes did Lip Pike get in all his years on the ballot?

Who's now the best hold-over from the '98 ballot?
   2. Jim Sp Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:03 AM (#1001909)
Best 1898 hold-over is Welch according to our current ballot, Williamson according to the 1898 ballot.
   3. karlmagnus Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:06 AM (#1001919)
Not to speak of my man Beckley in the top 10, but alas we'll have to wait till 1960 or so before he gets another shot :-((
   4. TomH Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:09 AM (#1001926)
Continual and sincere thanks to those who perform the arudous task of vote-counting every two weeks. Not my cup of tea.

My powers of persuasion are obviously, uh, less-than-stellar. I stump for three guys (Bresnahan, Chance, McGraw) this ballot, and they all fall backwards in the voting. My strategy for next week is to 'convince' y'all how worthless Clark Griffith is :)
   5. Sean Gilman Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:15 AM (#1001945)
As one of Lip's biggest and longest-tenured supporters, allow me to say:

"WhooHoo!"
   6. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:15 AM (#1001946)
Are these correct?

ROGAN
1920-29 KC MON (all fulltime?)
(not list him as part-time OF in 1934-35; barnstorming doesn't count, right?)

PIKE
1866 - PHI ATH
1867-68 - NY MUT
1869-70 - BKN ATL
1871 - TRO
1872-73 - BAL
1874 - HAR
1875-76 - STL
1877 - CIN
1878- CIN (PRV)
1881 - (Wor 5 G)
1887 - (Ny aa 1 G)

Are any of the early Pike years only part-time or token?
   7. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:15 AM (#1001947)
Continual and sincere thanks to those who perform the arudous task of vote-counting every two weeks. Not my cup of tea.

It's been a lot easier since Evan created the ballot counters for us. I salute him!
   8. favre Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:20 AM (#1001959)
I elected Pike to my pHoM in 1912. He's been in my top five every year since then (except 1934), and in an elect-me spot on eighteen ballots.

That doesn't really hold a candle to the John Murphy/Dickey Pearce or karlmagnus/Bob Caruthers stories, but I'm still a happy camper right now!
   9. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:22 AM (#1001964)
Are any of the early Pike years only part-time or token?

He played a considerable amount of games for those early clubs, Howie.

For Rogan, I included his stint with the All Nations club in 1917 since it was considered a strong club. I also mentioned his stint with the Army on his plaque, but not at the top.
   10. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:24 AM (#1001973)
ALL-TIME PTS LEADERS, thru 1940
1. Lip Pike 13,399
2. Sam Thompson 12,349
3. Charlie Bennett 11,503
4. Bob Caruthers 10,704
5. HUGH DUFFY 10,692
6. G VAN HALTREN 10,661.5
7. HUGHIE JENNINGS 10,338
8. JAKE BECKLEY 9867
9. PETE BROWNING 9727.5
10. Harry Stovey 9576

ACTIVE PTS LEADERS
1. HUGH DUFFY 10,692
2. G VAN HALTREN 10,661.5
3. HUGHIE JENNINGS 10,338
4. JAKE BECKLEY 9867
5. PETE BROWNING 9727.5
6. JIMMY RYAN 9326
7. CLARK GRIFFITH 8193
8. RUBE WADDELL 8103
9. CUPID CHILDS 7441
10. MICKEY WELCH 7287
(Bresnahan 5205, Leach 3970, Williamson 3963, C Jones 3931, McCormick 3086)
   11. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:26 AM (#1001982)
That doesn't really hold a candle to the John Murphy/Dickey Pearce or karlmagnus/Bob Caruthers stories, but I'm still a happy camper right now!

There never really was a "mouthpiece" for Pike like I was for Pearce and karlmagnus for Caruthers. He was just in the right place at the right time this election (which is fine by me :-)
   12. karlmagnus Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:27 AM (#1001983)
No favre, you beat me though probably not John Murphy. I had Caruthers on only 15 elect-mes, partly because we only elected 1 in many years, and he made my PHOM in 1908, 22 years ahead of consensus whereas you beat it by 28 years. He was always on my ballot, but I didn't focus on him properly till 1907, and he was behind Start and McVey until they got elected (so first "elect me" was 1915, second to Davis, and first #1 was 1916.)
   13. karlmagnus Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:27 AM (#1001988)
At current rate of progress, I may beat you with Beckley "elect-mes" though not alas in 1941!
   14. Jeff M Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:37 AM (#1002018)
Technical point, but the heading for this thread should say "1940" rather than "1941".
   15. karlmagnus Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:44 AM (#1002036)
And it should include Beckley! Sorry!
   16. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:44 AM (#1002037)
Hm. With Pike in, the number of "elect-mes" I've cast for non-HoMers is a grand total of 1: Sewell in 1939. I'll second Sean's "Whoo-hoo!". If my vote totals are right (I doubt it), I've given 671 points to Lip. That's more than the next two active candidates (Jennings and Ryan) put together.
   17. DavidFoss Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:44 AM (#1002039)
As one of Lip's biggest and longest-tenured supporters, allow me to say:

"WhooHoo!"


Yeeha!

I don't particular advocate advocacy, but in putting the Lipster in an elect-me spot about 10 times I admit that I grew attached to him. Hi, my name is David, and I'm and FOLP!

Ahhh... what a relief!
   18. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:48 AM (#1002050)
Technical point, but the heading for this thread should say "1940" rather than "1941".

What do you mean? Looks right to me. :-)
   19. karlmagnus Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:49 AM (#1002053)
Where's Jake in the top 10 list? :-))
   20. DavidFoss Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:53 AM (#1002072)
PIKE
1866 - PHI ATH
1867-68 - NY MUT
1869-70 - BKN ATL

Are any of the early Pike years only part-time or token?


He also played a bit for Irvington, NJ in 1867. Not sure what level of detail you'd like, but here is what Marshall Wright has for him:

Here is what I have:

1866 - PHI ATH -- 16 G (25 is max) -- 3B/OF/2B
1867 - IRV NJ -- 6 G (21 is max) - 3B
1867 - NY MUT -- 21 G (29 is max) -- OF/3B/2B/1B
1868 - NY MUT -- 25 G (42 is max) -- OF
1869 - BKN ATL -- 48 G (48 is max) -- 2B
1870 - BKN ATL -- 58/max58 total (36/max36 pro) -- 2B
   21. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:55 AM (#1002083)
Where's Jake in the top 10 list? :-))

Boy, I think some of you guys need to see an eye doctor! :-D
   22. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:58 AM (#1002091)
He also played a bit for Irvington, NJ in 1867.

I don't think they were that competitive of a team, David.
   23. Chris Cobb Posted: December 07, 2004 at 04:17 AM (#1002160)
ROGAN
1920-29 KC MON (all fulltime?)
(not list him as part-time OF in 1934-35; barnstorming doesn't count, right?)


I'd agree that he should be listed for his 1917 play with the All-Nations.

He should also definitely be listed for 1930 (part-time) and 1931 (part-time) as an outfielder.

I'd leave the call on 1934 and 1935 up to you: the Monarchs were out of the leagues in part because the leagues were in very bad shape because of the Depression. They barnstormed to stay in business, not because they were necessarily a lesser team. But you should follow your criteria.

If your criteria include play for an NeL team, though, Rogan ought to be listed as token for 1937-38. The Negro American League formed in the West in 1937, and the Monarchs were in it.
   24. DavidFoss Posted: December 07, 2004 at 04:21 AM (#1002172)

I don't think they were that competitive of a team, David.


Ahh... been a while since I've cracked open Marshall Wright. Thanks for reminding me about this stuff.

Irvington was the "country club" team that upset Atlantic in '66 to end their winning streak. They were 16-7 in '67 with wins over Union Morisania (2-0), Bkn Eckford (2-0), Union Lansingburgh (2-1), Bkn Atlantic (1-1), Wash Natl (1-1)... swept by NY Mutual.

They fell to (2-6) the next year and only spot appearances on other schedules in the book after that.

Maybe Paul Wendt can chime in when he gets a chance. I have no strong feeling about it, just dumping out all the facts. It was only 6 games, so I don't object to listing only NYMutual for 1867.
   25. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2004 at 04:21 AM (#1002176)
Kind of cool that Rogan's ascension means that every single HOMer has at least one HOMer teammate. He and Torriente played for All Nations in 1917 (I think Donaldson was on that team, too), and for KC Monarchs in 1926.

The only other fellas stuck with only ONE HOM teammate (min 10 G) to this pt are hurlers Alexander, Walsh, and 3F Brown.

Pike played with 5 HOMers, even not counting Galvin (8 of 58 GP in 1875) and Stovey (Pike 1 G).

White and Kelly added one more season to their top-10 tally with Pike, but all these guys may be done for good now. Eddie Collins (8 HOMer teammates for total of 37 'years') looking like the rising star among the moderns...

MOST SEASONS WITH HOM TEAMMATES
O'Rourke 19 for 78
White 15 for 63
Ward 14 for 51
Connor 12 for 50
Brouthers 17 for 49
Kelly 19 for 47
Ewing 13 for 47
Gore 14 for 44
Richardson 13 for 43
Keefe 8 for 43
   26. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2004 at 04:28 AM (#1002191)
Rogan gets 1917, and also 1930-31 as part-time OF.
Thanks as always, fellas!
   27. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2004 at 04:35 AM (#1002212)
Maybe Paul Wendt can chime in when he gets a chance. I have no strong feeling about it, just dumping out all the facts. It was only 6 games, so I don't object to listing only NYMutual for 1867.

If Paul says differently, I'll definitely change the plaque.
   28. PhillyBooster Posted: December 07, 2004 at 05:34 AM (#1002430)
So, with the election of an "original" 1898 candidate, I was inspired to go back to the original 1898 ballot thread to see where I had placed him on that first ballot.

Surprising to me, he was not actually on my first ballot. Although maybe not that surprising when I saw that we have now inducted 14 original eligibles, so chances are we all left off at least one of them (aside from Pearce, who only got one vote in 1898).

Other interesting discoveries:

Marc:

Having peeked ahead at the upcoming eligibles (all the way to 1920) I see us electing another 7 players who were eligible on this ballot. Based on '98 those would be:Radbourn, Wright, Sutton, Richardson, Williamson, Spalding and Start. I'd choose McVey and Pike over Sutton and Start.

But in the end, we didn't have to chose. We inducted six of those seven (all except Williamson), plus Galvin, McVey, Pike and Pearce.

Also notable from the 1898 results are the discussions with danb, who was the only(!) elector to leave an inductee off of his ballot (he didn't vote for Barnes -- the three other inductees were named on every ballot). There was some discussion of whether that would happen again. With the induction of Pike, we have reached the brink of almost electing a candidate who didn't make HALF the ballots (Pike was named on 26 out of 51 -- just over 50%).

Anyway, my project for the week is to look back and re-examine Ed Williamson, Tip O'Neill, and Charley Jones -- the three people who finished above the current top original eligible Mickey Welch on the first ballot.

Also, I'm going to have to re-examine Tommy Leach, who it is much easier to leave off of a ballot, then to explain why you are doing so.
   29. OCF Posted: December 07, 2004 at 07:37 AM (#1002740)
I started voting in 1904. For each year, at what ballot position did I have the electd candidates? Here's the list:

"Elect me" positions:
Glasscock (1904), Radbourn (1905), Hamilton (1907), Delahanty (1909), Nichols (1911), Burkett (1912), Dahlen (1915), Davis (1915), Stovey (1916), Young (1917), Clarke (1917), Kelley (1919), Keeler (1919), Walsh (1920), Bennett (1921), Lajoie (1922), Mathewson (1922), Wagner (1923), Crawford (1923), Plank (1923), G. Johnson (1925), Magee (1926), J. Jackson (1927), Baker (1928), Sheckard (1930), Santop (1932), W. Johnson (1933), Wheat (1933), Cobb (1934), E. Collins (1935), Alexander (1936), J. Williams (1936), Torriente (1937), Heilmann (1937), Coveleski (1938), Faber (1939), Rogan (1940).

#2 (in an elect-1 year): Sutton (1908), Galvin (1910), McPhee (1913), Flick (1918)
#3: Wallace (1929), Speaker (1934), Lloyd (1935)
#4: Start (1912), Groh (1938)
#5: Rusie (1904)
#6: Richardson (1905), Spalding (1906), Brown (1925)
#7: Grant (1926), McGinnity (1928)
#8: Carey (1939)
#9:
#10: McVey (1914), J. Collins (1921)
#11:
#12:
#13:
#14:
#15: R. Foster (1932)

Off-ballot positions:

#19: Thompson (1929)
#21: Caruthers (1930)
#24: Pearce (1931)
Not listed: Pike (1940)

Everyone that I've ever put into an "elect me" position has eventually been elected, with two exceptions: George Van Haltren and Larry Doyle.

As you can see, I have five large discrepancies between my ballot placement and the elected ones. Of these, call Rube Foster, Dickey Pearce, and Lip Pike philosophical disagreements over the timeline and the nature of evidence. As for the other two, Thompson and Caruthers, I still think we made mistakes there.
   30. OCF Posted: December 07, 2004 at 07:54 AM (#1002787)
As predicted, consensus scores rebounded slightly from last year's average of -8.5. The average was merely -7.0.

The highest possible consensus score would have been +7. Somehow in that environment, Howie Menckel managed a score of +4. There were two other positive scores, Chris Cobb and Tiboreau at +1. My own score of -1 was among the 10 highest.

Scoring between -15 and -20: yest, robc, Dolf Lucky, karlmagnus, and Guapo.

One of the byproducts of this calculation is an "index of disagreement" number for each candidate. That number for Pike was the highest I've ever seen. Somehow I think that the two we elect in 1941 will go in with exremely low - perhaps zero - indices of disagreement.
   31. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 07, 2004 at 08:40 AM (#1002881)
I am really psyched by these results, congrats to Lipman! I got on board with him kind of late, but since I had him #1, I guess I'm one of his top 7 supporters at this point.

Charley Jones is going to be my next 'cause'. I realize he's only polling #25 at this point, but greater gaps have been closed. Peak guys have to like him and there's enough career when you add in his black-list years.

Before age 37, his worst OPS+ was 132 (at age 36) and 134 (as a rookie in 51 PA). In-between he ranged from 147-183, over a 10-season run (with of course, the two missing seasons). His last 5 years were in the AA 1883-87, so they deserve a bit of a discount, but he was a heckuva hitter.

The only player on his most-similar list (through age 38) with an OPS+ near his career 149 is Gavy Cravath (151) - who is about to become my other cause, since I was his 'best friend' in this election - voting him 5th.
   32. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:16 PM (#1003008)
I know most of you don't want to go over this, but why should Charley Jones get credit for his blacklisted years? From what I read in the NBJHBA, it seems that he is as much at fault for the whole fiasco as the NL or AA were. He didnt' need to demand to have his money then and there, and he must have known that it would be impossible for them to pay him.

And it seems that I have fallen off in similarity scores, I guess that comes with the territory though, this only having been my sixth election.
   33. Howie Menckel Posted: December 07, 2004 at 03:20 PM (#1003015)
Consensus scores focus a lot, I guess, on whether a contender makes your ballot. I focus quite heavily on the highest-rated players; I want to get them right. I guess everybody else has some 42nd-ranked 'cause' to promote!
One other thing of note: Many of my old 'causes' have moved up significantly over the past decade, like Welch, Griffith, Pike, Browning, and Childs. It's as if the other electors are helping me 'win' consensus scores.
Or do I just talk a good game? I seriously may re-think Doyle and Roush next 'year'; his supporters should send me cash, haha!


Here's my last vote in order, followed by where they actually finished (I got only Jennings and Leach 'right'):

1. CLARK GRIFFITH - 6th
2. BULLET JOE ROGAN - 1st
3. LIP PIKE - 2nd
4. MICKEY WELCH - 13th
5. HUGHIE JENNINGS - 5th
6. GEORGE SISLER - 7th
7. EPPA RIXEY - 4th
8. DICK REDDING - (18th)
9. TOMMY LEACH - 9th
10. JAKE BECKLEY - 8th
11. SAM RICE - 24th
12. BURLEIGH GRIMES - (19th)
13. CUPID CHILDS - (16th)
14. PETE BROWNING - 15th
15. JOE SEWELL - 3rd

Top vote-getters I didn't pick: Van Haltren-Waddell-Duffy, 10-11-12.
   34. sunnyday2 Posted: December 07, 2004 at 05:23 PM (#1003254)
I am in shock that Pike got elected. Even though he was the bridesmaid I thought we would actually make it to the altar. With Lip's election my PHoM/not HoM is down to eight.

2B- Childs in
SS- Jennings in
3B- Williamson in, Sutton out

No regrets on any of the in's, Sutton still a PHoM contender. I need to see if he would go ahead of Traynor, not that I am sure Traynor will ever make it.

LF- C. Jones in; Stovey, Kelley, Sheckard, P. Hill out

The Hall of the Very Good LFers.

CF- H. Wright in. Since David Foss posted the details of his career I will allow that Harry was a mistake.

RF- Keeler out

P- Bond and Waddell in, Galvin and Faber out.

Pecking order for HoM/not PHoM to go into the PHoM someday:

1. Stovey
2. Sutton or Faber
3. Faber or Sutton
4. Kelley
5. Keeler
6. Sheckard or Hill
7. Hill or Sheckard
8. Galvin--the only definitely not never on the list, though it will be tough getting through all the other OFers to Hill and Sheckard.

If I had my druthers in the PHoM/not HoM side of the equation, I would hope that we elect my IFers plus Tommy Bond someday--Jennings, Bond, Williamson and Childs in that order.
   35. sunnyday2 Posted: December 07, 2004 at 05:59 PM (#1003327)
PS. I was 25 years earlier on Caruthers, 24 on Sam Thompson, 18 years on Pearce, 12 years on Pike and 11 on Charlie Bennett.

I am 27 years early and counting on Harry Wright (sorry), 21 on Charley Jones, 17 on Williamson, 16 on Childs, 14 on Jennings and 12 on Tommy Bond.

Meanwhile I am 33 years late and counting on Sutton, 31 on Galvin, 25 on Stovey, 22 each on Keeler and Kelley, 14 on Hill and 11 on Sheckard. And I was 14 years late but PHoMed Hardy Richardson and also 14 years late on Eddie Plank.
   36. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 07, 2004 at 06:05 PM (#1003349)
Even though he was the bridesmaid I thought we would actually make it to the altar.

You and me both, Marc.
   37. Daryn Posted: December 07, 2004 at 09:55 PM (#1003885)
Howie and I had 14 of the same people on the ballot last year. Are there any two voters who had all 15 of the same people?
   38. Daryn Posted: December 07, 2004 at 10:00 PM (#1003904)
13 actually. I've recently moved Childs off the ballot. Childs and Jennings traded for Bresnahan and Waddell.
   39. Philip Posted: December 07, 2004 at 10:22 PM (#1004004)
Bring out the champagne!!!
   40. sunnyday2 Posted: December 08, 2004 at 12:18 AM (#1004392)
John, I meant to say that I NEVER thought we would get to the altar with Lip Pike, and I think you were agreeing with what I meant to say rather than with what I did say... Is that right?

I know I didn't share 15 people on my ballot with anybody, being the only voter with Tommy Bond (#56T) on my ballot, not to mention Ed Williamson (#47) and Jim McCormick (#49), sharing Ed with 2 other voters and Jim with 1.

Williamson is my next cause! I remember a lot of people saying he was pretty much interchangeable with Jimmy Collins. I have said I will have Pie Traynor on my ballot, but I think he will be behind Big Ed. Speaking of 3B (as somebody was somewhere recently), I also expect to have Stan Hack on my ballot. Hack ranks below Groh for sure, maybe below Traynor, but certainly way ahead of George Kell. Best 3B eligible as of 1963, when Kell became eligible:

1. Baker
2. Deacon White if you take his entire career and slot it and him at 3B
3. Collins
4. Groh
5. Williamson
6. Traynor
7. Hack
8. Leach
9. Sutton
10. Elliott

Rounding out the top 10 if you do not include Deacon White: Cross

Next 10: Nash, Zimmerman, Kell, Gardner, McGraw, Clift, Lyons, Bradley, Meyerle, Latham

Guys I would ever expect to see on my ballot goes down as far as Leach (who hasn't been there yet) and Sutton (who was but is not PHoM, at least not yet). Elliott seems more like probably not.
   41. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 08, 2004 at 12:50 AM (#1004492)
John, I meant to say that I NEVER thought we would get to the altar with Lip Pike, and I think you were agreeing with what I meant to say rather than with what I did say... Is that right?

Yes it is, Marc. Funny, but I read it the way you meant it.

2. Deacon White if you take his entire career and slot it and him at 3B

I can't wait to analyze first baseman Ernie Banks years from now! :-)
   42. yest Posted: December 08, 2004 at 02:04 AM (#1004782)
Lip Pike was 18th on my ballot and made my personal HoM in 1910

With Lip's election my PHoM/not HoM is now at 22 enough to have a game and I now have more PHoMers/not HoMers(22) then PHoMers/not HoFers (17)
NOT IN THE HALL OF MERIT
1. Jake Beckley
2. George Van Haltren
3. Pete Browning
4. Hugh Duffy
5. Jimmy Ryan
6. Mickey Welch
7. Clark Griffith
8. Rube Waddell
9. Addie Joss
10. Jake Daubert
11. John McGraw
12. Gavvy Cravath
13. Bobby Veach
14. George J. Burns
15. Ginger Beaumont
16. George Sisler
17. Ray Schalk
18. Edd Roush
19. Rabbit Maranville
20. Joe Sewell
21. Sam Rice
22. Hack Wilson

Not in Phom
1. Bullet Joe Rogan
2. Sherry Magee
3. Stan Coveleski
4. Jack Glasscock
5. George Davis
6. Jimmy Collins
7. Bob Caruthers
8. Elmer Flick
9. Louis Santop
10. Joe Start
11. Red Faber
12. Bobby Wallace
13. Heinie Groh
14. Jimmy Sheckard
15. Hardy Richardson
16. Dickey Pearce
17. Ezra Sutton
18. Home Run Johnson
19. Frank Grant
20. Charlie Bennett
21. Max Carey
22. Cristóbal Torriente
   43. Guapo Posted: December 08, 2004 at 07:18 PM (#1006412)
I elected Pike to my PHoM way back in 1900, so I'm a whopping 40 years ahead of the curve. Of course, I didn't start voting until 1927, so when I started putting together my PHoM retroactively I had the benefit of about 30 years of your expertise... ;)
   44. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 08, 2004 at 07:26 PM (#1006429)
No fair, Guapo! :-)
   45. Michael Bass Posted: December 08, 2004 at 07:37 PM (#1006470)
I'm slowly starting to process of starting my own PHOM. I have to decide whether or not to ignore my early ballot, where I used a completely different system, and would have inducted some players I wouldn't be close to inducting now. Probably won't cheat, though I will use my current system for everyone before that. :)
   46. PhillyBooster Posted: December 08, 2004 at 08:01 PM (#1006527)
Well, since it's your P-HoM, I don't think you can really cheat. The Board of Directors at my PHoM is considering such innovations as a once-per-decade exclusion vote -- where every ten years a plaque is ceremoniously stripped from the wall and placed in the rear dumpster -- and a new "multi-positional" wing, with elections held once every five years, where only players who did not play 50% of their games at any single position are eligible.

Also under advisement is a special affirmative-action election for "white non-pitchers who played 15+ years in the Major Leagues", since they are having problems competing on a level playing field with the Cravaths, Monroes, Rixeys, and Mendezes who get in the front door.
   47. Michael Bass Posted: December 08, 2004 at 10:29 PM (#1007011)
No, certainly no "rules", but I want to be a man about my "mistakes" on par with Marc owning up to Harry Wright. :)
   48. OCF Posted: December 08, 2004 at 11:00 PM (#1007121)
(Daryn) Howie and I had 13 of the same people on the ballot last year. Are there any two voters who had all 15 of the same people?

13 is the max, and you're the only two to share 13. Daryn and Adam Schafer share 12. The least number shared between two ballots is 1, by Kelly from SD and Jim Sp.
   49. Sean Gilman Posted: December 09, 2004 at 01:02 AM (#1007420)
   50. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 09, 2004 at 01:13 AM (#1007448)
Nice job on Lip, Sean! BTW, I have one pending for Dickey Pearce (I've been sponsoring Ezra Sutton's for a couple of years now).
   51. OCF Posted: December 09, 2004 at 02:02 AM (#1007543)
Post #48 was simply a count of number of persons in common on the top 15. If you take into account ballot position - no, lets make it take into account points awarded - then you're approaching the idea behind consensus scores.

So a new scale: pairwise agreement. This is a 0 to 100 scale. Call it % even though that's an oversimplification of what it really is. Everyone agrees 100% with himself. If your ballot and someone else's had no candidates in common, that would be 0% agreement. The average over all pairs for the 1940 ballot was 44% agreement.

The single highest pairwise agreement was 90% between Daryn and Adam Schafer. The next highest was 82% between Daryn and Howie Menkel. The three lowest pairwise agreements were 6% (Rusty Priske and Michael Bass), 7% (karlmagnus and Dr. Chaleeko) and 8% (Kelly from SD and EricC). Kelly from SD and Jim Sp had only one candidate in common, but since that candidate (Rogan) was #1 on both ballots, the pair checks in at 18% agreement.

In my own case, I agree 70% with both Rob Wood and Andrew M, with my lowest agreement being 28% with karlmagnus.
   52. OCF Posted: December 09, 2004 at 02:09 AM (#1007553)
Everyone agrees 100% with himself.

Of course, I can't see your internal thought processes, and this doesn't take into account anything that might or might not have happened in between your preliminary and final ballots.
   53. PhillyBooster Posted: December 09, 2004 at 05:26 AM (#1007821)
So, I'm not always up on all of the players' biographical details, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we just inaugurated Hannukah with our first Jewish inductee.

Mazel tov to Mr. Pike.
   54. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 09, 2004 at 07:33 PM (#1008858)
Besides Sean's sponsorship of Lip Pike, here are some others that I found of voters here:

Ezra Sutton

Dickey Pearce

Buck Ewing

Elmer Flick (it's been a while since Craig voted here)

Eddie Collins (is this Dolf Lucky?)

Joe used to sponsor Deacon White a while back, IIRC.
   55. jimd Posted: December 09, 2004 at 10:11 PM (#1009237)
I don't sponsor any specific players but I have been sponsoring the Brotherhood since its inception (sponsoring that is, not the PL). (Megalomaniac? Delusions of grandeur? Yep, that's me. ;-) (J.M.Ward was already taken anyhow.)
   56. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 09, 2004 at 10:52 PM (#1009341)
I didn't look for that, Jim. Sponsoring all eight teams makes you king of all of us there. I assume it was cheaper than sponsoring the '27 Yanks, '86 Mets or 2004 BoSox individually, but I imagine that still wasn't cheap.
   57. jimd Posted: December 09, 2004 at 11:52 PM (#1009459)
I've got a bunch of baseball encylopediae at home, and baseball-reference.com is better than any of them. To me, it's worth it.
   58. Paul Wendt Posted: December 10, 2004 at 12:42 AM (#1009571)
Kelly from SD and Jim SP had only one candidate in common, but since that candidate (Rogan) was #1 on both ballots, the pair checks in at 18% agreement
Omphaloknepsis, but quite amusing


Irvington (NJ) was strong in 1867; at least "competitive" in 1866. W-L 11-7 vs the other good teams (inclg forfeit L in final match); 3-5 in 1866. Relatively strong schedule each year.

Mutual's 1867 sweep was 17-16, 19-16. I suppose that Pike's Irvington stint was early in the 1867 season and that the Mutuals acquired him between their two matches --the 4th and 12th of 23 matches for Irvington, 3rd and 21st of 30 for Mutual.

1867 Irvington P Wolters and SS Stockman were acquired by the Mutuals for 1868. 2B Sweasy and 3B Leonard (moved to OF) were acquired by the Buckeyes of Cincinnati for 1868 and by Harry Wright for 1869. I suppose that all five were pros in 1868.

MLB careers of 1867 Irvingtons
<u>Name</u> _ <u>LastRegular/LastGame</u>
Lip Pike _ 1878/87
Andy Leonard _ 1878/80
Charlie Sweasy _ 1879/79
Rynie Wolters _ 1871/73
Mahlon Stockman _ 1868/69 (dnp MLB)
Hugh Campbell _ 1873 (Elizabeth Resolutes only MLB)
Mike Campbell _ 1873 (Elizabeth Resolutes only MLB)
   59. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 10, 2004 at 03:10 AM (#1009887)
You convinced me, Paul. I'll add that team to his plaque right away. Thanks!
   60. Rusty Priske Posted: December 10, 2004 at 02:33 PM (#1010717)
In my PHoM but not in the HoM, in the order I inducted them:

1912: George Van Haltren
1913: Jake Beckley
1914: Jimmy Ryan
1921: Tommy Leach
1929: Spotswood Poles, Mickey Welch
1930: Hugh Duffy
1931: Harry Hooper
1932: Dobie Moore
1939: Eppa Rixey, Rabbit Maranville
1940: Sam Rice, George Sisler

There are a couple I would go back and change if I hadn't promised myself that I wouldn't do that.

In the HoM but not in my PHoM, in the order they were inducted:

1901: George Wright
1902: Buck Ewing
1905: Hardy Richardson
1916: Harry Stovey
1920: Ed Walsh
1922: Charlie Bennett, Jimmy Collins
1928: Joe McGinnity
1929: Sam Thompson
1938: Stan Coveleski, Heinie Groh
1939: Red Faber
1940: Joe Rogan

Some will get in at some point. Some never will.
   61. DavidFoss Posted: December 10, 2004 at 03:35 PM (#1010763)
In the HoM but not in my PHoM, in the order they were inducted:

1901: George Wright
1902: Buck Ewing


Wow... you inducted Pearce & Pike, but not these guys? I acknowledge that PHoM's are tough and I've been a supporter of Pearce & Pike myself, but I don't think they are in the class of George Wright.

Maybe I'll just make a plug for GWright for your PHoM in 1942. His pre-NA numbers were simply awesome. It wasn't like he was just the best player on his team from 1867-1870... its like he hit head-and-shoulders better than the second best player on championship teams from 1867-1870 as a shortstop. Stack that on top of his great NA/NL numbers and he's a first ballot elect-me-slot guy.
   62. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 10, 2004 at 03:55 PM (#1010768)
In the HoM but not in my PHoM, in the order they were inducted:

1901: George Wright
1902: Buck Ewing

Wow... you inducted Pearce & Pike, but not these guys? I acknowledge that PHoM's are tough and I've been a supporter of Pearce & Pike myself, but I don't think they are in the class of George Wright.


...or Ewing (but thanks for helping to induct Pearce and Pike, nevertheless :-).

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