|
|
|
Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Monday, March 21, 2005
1948 Ballot Discussion
1948 (March 27)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
383 125.2 1926 Charlie Gehringer-2B (1993)
312 106.7 1924 Ted Lyons-P (1986)
245 63.6 1927 Lloyd Waner-CF (1982)
218 71.9 1929 Larry French-P (1987)
192 59.3 1928 Sam West-CF (1985)
185 59.5 1930 Lefty Gomez-P (1989)
162 55.6 1933 Billy Werber-3B (living)
162 50.5 1934 Red Rolfe-3B (1969)
138 36.9 1932 Bruce Campbell-RF (1995)
111 42.3 1934 Harry Danning-C (living)
116 40.8 1930 Clint Brown-RP (1955)
118 40.5 1934 George Selkirk-RF/LF (1987)
120 39.3 1933 Elden Auker-P (living)
101 32.8 1934 Hank Leiber-CF (1993)
085 32.4 1935 Babe Phelps-C (1992)
099 20.5 1930 Eric McNair-SS (1949)
1948 (March 27)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 22-46 Cool Papa Bell-CF (1903) #3 cf - 1.5 - 8*
04% 29-42 Leroy Matlock-P (1907) 3 - 3*
04% 25-42 Bobbie Robinson-3B (??) 0 - 1*
00% 23-46 Nat Rogers-LF/RF(1893) #10 rf - 0 - 3*
Players Passing Away in 1947
HoMers
Age Elected
87 1904 Jack Glasscock-SS
68 1930 Jimmy Sheckard-LF
Candidates
Age Eligible
74 1916 Bob Ewing-P
74 1917 Harry Davis-1b
72 1917 Kitty Bransfield-1b
71 1916 Vic Willis-P
71 1919 Johnny Kling-C
66 1916 Orval Overall-P
65 1923 Johnny Evers-2B
64 1925 Hal Chase-1b
62 1923 Mike Mowrey-3b
61 1927 Ed Konetchy-1B
46 1943 Jimmie Wilson-C
43 1942 George Blaeholder-P
Upcoming Candidate
35 1952 Josh Gibson-C
Thanks Dan and Chris!
|
Bookmarks
You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.
Hot Topics
Most Meritorious Player: 1983 Discussion (40 - 12:03pm, Jun 18)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1982 Discussion (56 - 4:28pm, Jun 17)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1982 Results (7 - 9:27pm, Jun 15)Last: Chris FluitMost Meritorious Player: 1982 Ballot (25 - 4:13pm, Jun 07)Last: DL from MN2014 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (86 - 8:02pm, May 23)Last: Ivan Grushenko of Hong KongMost Meritorious Player: 1981 Results (11 - 3:30pm, May 16)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1981 Discussion (72 - 10:54am, May 13)Last: bjhankeMost Meritorious Player: 1981 Ballot (47 - 9:51am, May 06)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1979 Discussion (115 - 2:09pm, Apr 19)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1980 Results (10 - 12:23pm, Apr 15)Last: DL from MNGeorge Scales (70 - 10:52am, Apr 10)Last: Ivan Grushenko of Hong KongLarry Doby (94 - 12:28am, Apr 10)Last: KJOKMost Meritorious Player: 1980 Ballot (21 - 11:03pm, Apr 09)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1980 Discussion (45 - 1:04am, Apr 09)Last: lieiamMost Meritorious Player: 1979 Results (12 - 4:30pm, Mar 14)Last: TomH
|
|
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
Thank you for bringing up career-length and per-season playing time as a sources of uncertainty. I should have included them, esp. given the recent importance of the latter issue for assessing Bell's career.
Career length is somewhat less of an issue in the data itself, since I run conversions for every NeL season for which a player has data; individual voters will differ on where they draw the boundaries of the major-league equivalent career, but the numbers are there for consideration.
Estimating playing time for Biz Mackey will be, incidentally, a major undertaking. I hope to get some discussion of the problem before I attempt playing-time estimates for him.
By this method, Hartnett is a lot better than Cochrane, for example, while Bresnahan isn't very good. When Chris has done Mackey's ML conversions, I'll convert to 130 game seasons, thus taking the durability question out of the equation, and assuming that Mackey is a standardized "good durable" ML player. Others can then make whetever use they like of the result.
yrs g pa avg. obp. slg. ops+ bWS fWS tWS 1922-38 Wilson 17 2352 9879 .336 .431 .448 132 320 58 378 1923-41 Suttles 19 2420 10163 .302 .366 .538 137 314 39 353 1919-35 Beckwith 17 1905 8010 .333 .392 .523 137 263 52 315 1924-46 Bell 23 3230 13637 .297 .365 .382 100 308 111 419 top 5 OPS+ WS WS/162 def: 1922-38 Wilson 141 176 172 149 34 31 29 26.03 B+(1b); C+(3b) 1923-41 Suttles 127 219 158 155 44 31 28 23.63 B-(1b); C-(lf) 1919-35 Beckwith 137 161 157 156 31 29 28 26.79 D(ss) 1924-46 Bell 116 137 137 124 27 25 25 21.02 A+(cf)Don't really care if anyone respects it, not after 50 ballots, lol...
--
Because it's runs above average (or at least a high replacement level), and I've attempted to correct replacement level for position and defense. However, I admit that if Beckwith really *could* play a half-decent 3B or SS in the majors, he should be higher.
Beckwith's case continues to be difficult. In arriving at an appropriate "discount" of his MLEs along the lines that Chris has discussed, one wonders if Beckwith among all of them would have stuck in the MLs the least as 1) a man without a position and 2) an attitude problem.
OTOH (and this is a question) I also wonder if his play on barnstorming as opposed to NeL teams is fairly represented in his numbers? IOW his apparently short career is possibly due to his barnstorming seasons being under- or non-represented (sort of like pretending Dobie Moore didn't play ball before joining the NeL)? Is that the case or not?
Right now I do give Beckwith a larger discount than the others because of his lack of esteem among his contemporaries. I'm still struggling with whether that is fair or not.
Bell's reputation is completely consistent with NeL folklore, however, and that makes it easier. IOW the old-timers from the NeL (which really means guys who were around in the '30s, so not *real* old timers) almost always opted for guys who were strongly imprinted on the position in question AND were the top defenders. Thus Judy Johnson over Jud Wilson and Beckwith, Bell over Stearnes, etc. etc. etc.
With that in mind, it still looks to me like Bell is more Judy Johnson than Jud Wilson. Or Lloyd Waner rather than Paul.
OTOH career voters and other fans of Max Carey should like him. I was a FOMC and I have Bell 15th for now.
The one item on the table that is not current and consistently figured for all players is batting win shares. The bws for Suttles and Beckwith are still based on MLEs prior to the NL-for-the-1930s shift, where Wilson and Bell have win shares pegged to the NL for those years. Both Suttles and Beckwith should see some rise in batting win shares as a result, Suttles more than Beckwith, since Beckwith had only four seasons as a regular from 1930 on.
It's interesting that Beckwith's and Suttles' career OPS+ scores are equal.
I think Beckwith's case is one where the inequities of the NgL and MLB life are really visible. In the NgLs, whatever issues Beckwith had led to lots of team jumping, possibly to early retirement(s) to run pool halls, and perhaps to an unwillingess to relocate into the west.
In MLB, where the economics were probably more stable and the career path a little more predicatable, it's possible that Beckwith would have had a very different-looking career and that his personality would have been viewed differently. Which is only to say that in examining the role of character and attitude for any player, NgL or MLB, it's important to remember that perceived personality traits are just as often environmental in their origin as internal. And one usually influences the other, often dramatically.
It could also be argued that an MLB team, itself more stable econmically than its NeL brethren, would have been less likely to a)put up with Beckwith or b) continue to give him chances that he may or may not have deserved. This isnt' to say that Beckwith couldn't have lasted in MLB (your take on the subject is most likely the correct one) just that the argument cuts both ways.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main