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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, April 04, 2005

1948 Ballot Results: Hall of Merit Voters Decide That Gehringer and Wilson are Worthy!

In his first year of eligibility, second base great Charlie Gehringer earned a sparkling 98% of the vote for HoM induction.

Negro League star Jud Wilson was selected (the thirteenth Negro Leaguer so far) for the second spot in his second year of eligibility.

White Sox ace Ted Lyons made a strong impression in his first year of eligibility.

Rounding out the top-ten were: Mule Suttles, John Beckwith, Eppa Rixey, Wes Ferrell, Earl Averill, George Sisler and Clark Griffith.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Charlie Gehringer       1198   51  45  3  1     1  1                           
 2    3  Jud Wilson               938   50   3 21  4  7  2  2  3  2  1  1  3  1         
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3  n/e  Ted Lyons                692   45      7  7  6  4  4  2  4  2  2  1  2     1  3
 4    4  Mule Suttles             684   46      3 11  5  1  6  4  6  2     3  1  2  1  1
 5    5  John Beckwith            604   44      3  5  6  6     2  5  3  3  2  2  1  3  3
 6    6  Eppa Rixey               381   31      1     2  2  4  1  4  2  6  4     2  2  1
 7    7  Wes Ferrell              337   27   1     3  1  2  2  2  1  1  3  2  4  3  2   
 8    8  Earl Averill             317   27      1     1  3  2  1  1  4  1  3  5  3  2   
 9   12  George Sisler            315   25   1  2  2  3  1        1  2  2  1  1  5     4
10   10  Clark Griffith           313   25         1  3  4  2  3  1  1  2  1  1  2  2  2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11    9  Hughie Jennings          297   21      3  1  5     2     1  2  2     1     3  1
12   11  Jake Beckley             286   24   1     1  1  3  1  2     4  2     2  1  4  2
13   14  George Van Haltren       254   20      1  1     1  4  1  2  1  5     1  1  1  1
14   13  Joe Sewell               251   19         1  2  2  4  1  1  3     1  2  2      
15   15  Hugh Duffy               240   19         1  1  5  1  2     2  1     2  1  3   
16   18  Mickey Welch             211   14      2  3  1  1     3        2           2   
17  n/e  Cool Papa Bell           209   20         1     3     1  1  2  1  2  1  1  2  5
18   16  Edd Roush                198   18      1           1  2  2  2     3  2  1  2  2
19   17  Rube Waddell             190   17         1        1  3  1  1  3  1  2  2  1  1
20   22  Cupid Childs             163   15               1  1  3  1     2  2  1  1     3
21   23  Dick Lundy               155   13         1     2  1     1  2  3        1     2
22   20  Pete Browning            154   11      1  1     1  2  1  1  2           2      
23   19  Tommy Leach              148   14            1  1        3  2     1  1     3  2
24   21  Cannonball Dick Redding  145   12         1  1        1  2  2  1  1  1  2      
25   25  Charley Jones            135   10      1  1  1  1     2        1     1     1  1
26   26  Burleigh Grimes          131   11         1  1  1  1  1           2  1  1  2   
27   27  José Méndez              120   10               1  1     3  2        2  1      
28   24  Roger Bresnahan          119   11            1        1     1  3  1  1  3      
29   29  Wally Schang             106    9      1           1     1  1     2  1  1     1
30   30  Bill Monroe               89    9                  1  1  1           2  1  3   
31   28  Larry Doyle               88    8               1  1  1        1  2           2
32   31  Sam Rice                  80    7                  1  2        1  1  1     1   
33   32  Jimmy Ryan                79    7                     2  2        1     1  1   
34   33  Dizzy Dean                74    6            1     2        1        1        1
35   34  Dobie Moore               65    7         1                       1  1  1  2  1
36   36  Gavy Cravath              62    5         1        1        1        1  1      
37  n/e  Lefty Gomez               56    6                     2                 2     2
38   35  Pie Traynor               48    4            1           1     1           1   
39   39  Ben Taylor                43    4               1                 1  1  1      
40   38  John McGraw               37    4                        1        1     1     1
41   42  Vic Willis                25    3                                 1     1  1   
42T  40  George J. Burns           24    2                     1           1            
42T  43  Ed Cicotte                24    2                  1                 1         
44   46  Ed Williamson             23    3                                    1  1     1
45   41  Kiki Cuyler               22    3                                 1           2
46   47  Tony Lazzeri              18    2                              1           1   
47   53T Tony Mullane              17    2                                 1        1   
48T  48T Hack Wilson               16    2                                 1           1
48T  37  Carl Mays                 16    2                                    1     1   
50   51T Tommy Bond                13    1                        1                     
51T  65T Buzz Arlett               12    2                                             2
51T  65T Heinie Manush             12    2                                             2
53T  53T Fred Dunlap               12    1                           1                  
53T  53T Dolf Luque                12    1                           1                  
55   56T Jack Quinn                11    1                              1               
56T  59T Wilbur Cooper             10    1                                 1            
56T  58  Spotswood Poles           10    1                                 1            
56T  48T Bobby Veach               10    1                                 1            
59T  59T Fielder Jones              9    1                                    1         
59T  59T Sam Leever                 9    1                                    1         
61T  48T Addie Joss                 8    1                                       1      
61T  64  Buddy Myer                 8    1                                       1      
63T  56T Donie Bush                 7    1                                          1   
63T  44  Harry Hooper               7    1                                          1   
65   62T Urban Shocker              6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Wally Berger(45), Mike Griffin(65T), Waite Hoyt(62T), 
Ed Konetchy(51T).




John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 04, 2005 at 10:11 PM | 44 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 05, 2005 at 12:09 AM (#1232537)
hot topics
   2. OCF Posted: April 05, 2005 at 12:59 AM (#1232573)
That reconciled easily - only one discrepancy, and it was my mistake.

51 voters. Missing: Max Parkinson, mdb1mdb1, Mike Webber, stephen. Returning: Chris J.

Average consensus score: +5.5.

Highest consensus scores:

Howie Menckel 18
Chris Cobb 16
Tiboreau 14
Trevor 14
favre 14

Lowest consensus scores:

Al Peterson -4
Gadfly -4
sunnyday2 -4
karlmagnus -7
yest -18

Chris J. was always high-consensus before, and he came back in with a +11.
   3. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: April 05, 2005 at 01:14 AM (#1232591)
Welcome back, Chris J.!
   4. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: April 05, 2005 at 11:14 AM (#1233047)
What am I missing? How does Ted Lyons look better than Eppa Rixey? Do voters give Rixey no credit for his military service? With that and a decent team behind him he's an easy 300 game winner with a nice peak. I just don't see it at all.
   5. TomH Posted: April 05, 2005 at 12:27 PM (#1233067)
Lyons has a better ERA+ (118 to 115).

Rixey’s 300 IP advantage is mostly a product of the deadball era. Lyons was 1st or 2nd in IP 4 times. Eppa does have a logner career if you give him WWI credit (and no WWII credit for Ted).

Lyons was a better hitter.

Lyons did much better in MVP voting: once first among pitchers, four more times in top 4.

Lyons played 10 years later (and AL vice NL), so he deserves some league quality bonus.

Rixey pitched in front of better defenses according to WARP. BP's Translated stats show Lyons' ERA to be 0.43 lower!

By Win Shares, Lyons was one-half a win better per full year, without league qual adjustments

In summary: many small plusses for Ted. Whether you are peak, prime, or career, this choice looks easy.
   6. Carl G Posted: April 05, 2005 at 01:31 PM (#1233097)
Good election guys! I'm nearly complete in my 'catch-up' research and will be ready to vote in the 1949 election. I need only to figure out where to fit Suttles, Beckwith, and Bell into my rankings of Major League players. (Wilson too, but you guys saved me the trouble on that one). Looking at WS, Lyons and Rixey come out dead even in career value for me, but Lyons has a better peak. My gut says Lyons is better.
   7. Carl G Posted: April 05, 2005 at 01:57 PM (#1233121)
btw, Can a Wes Ferrell supporter give me the argument in his favor? I'm just not seeing it and, by the fact that he's off about half the ballots, I'm guessing there's a major break in opinion.
   8. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 05, 2005 at 02:05 PM (#1233126)
In summary: many small plusses for Ted.

I also give Lyons a little credit for WWII.
   9. TomH Posted: April 05, 2005 at 02:38 PM (#1233172)
By WARP3, Ferrell was worth 78 wins above replacement in only 9 seasons (1929-37). This compares well to everyone else high on the ballot, especially if you believe in a higher-than-WARP replacement level:
pitcher WARP3 yrs
Ferrell 78 ....9
Lyons. 103 ...18
Dean.. 61 ....8
Rixey 76 ...20

By Win Shares he doesn't look quite this good, but if you use multiple measures, he comes out pretty high.

A quicker way to say it would be a 117 ERA+ with a great bat is a fine combo.
   10. TomH Posted: April 05, 2005 at 02:39 PM (#1233174)
and I'm not an official FOWF. I placed him 7th, which is last ballot's consensus.
   11. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: April 05, 2005 at 04:05 PM (#1233308)
I had Ferrell 4th. He has the second best pitching peak on the board (3rd now with Hubbell)and he was a major league average hitter per OPS+ (100). MLB average hitter at the pitcher position is an enormous advantage, negated somewhat by the fact that Ferrell obviously didn't pitch everyday. When he did pitch though, there is a good chance he wasn't the worst hitter on his team, a 1930's DH of sorts.

My point is that while I don't see Ferrell as the best pitcher, I do think that for a peak/prime voter like myself he was the best PLAYER to have played the position of pitcher.

For those that like lots of IP in their HOM candidates, Ferrell isnt' your man. If you aren't giving much credit for his hitting, Ferrell isn't your man. Hence the break.
   12. sunnyday2 Posted: April 05, 2005 at 04:56 PM (#1233385)
What's most interesting to me is the mediocre showing of 20th century position players. We're electing the obvious HoMers, of course, which leaves:

8. Averill--nobody in the top 7
9. Sisler--up from 12
14. Sewell
18. Roush
23. Leach

The top 3 all had fairly short careers with obvious question marks--Do you credit Averill's PCL years? What about Sisler's eye troubles and precipitous decline? Sewell's move to 3B after just 8 years?

And Klein, it seems to me, is very similar. A somewhat short career, a fairly precipitous decline (maybe just a change in park effects?), but a high impact player for awhile. He seems to belong among our top 20th century position players.
   13. sunnyday2 Posted: April 05, 2005 at 04:59 PM (#1233397)
BTW, cannot believe I am in the bottom 5 on consensus. I had the top 2 ranked 1-2, was off Suttles and Bell by 2 slots, Sisler by 4. Maybe it was Dobie Moore at 3, or Bond at 8 or Williamson at 12 that did it?
   14. OCF Posted: April 05, 2005 at 05:09 PM (#1233427)
I had the top 2 ranked 1-2

You meant to say 1-4, right?

sunnyday2, it's no one thing, it was an accumulation of little things. You had 5 of the top 10 on your ballot; many people had 7 or 8 of them. You're one of three best friends of Jennings (and putting an 11th place candidate in an elect-me slot matters); you're the best friend of Moore, Bond, and Williamson.

But you're still a long, long way from being yest; you're closer to average than you are to him.
   15. jimd Posted: April 05, 2005 at 05:38 PM (#1233528)
For more discussion of Wes Ferrell, follow the link.

Again, thanks to Tiboreau for reposting many of the earlier Ferrell posts on the "Wes Ferrell" thread.
   16. jimd Posted: April 05, 2005 at 05:39 PM (#1233531)
For more discussion of Wes Ferrell, follow the link.

Again, thanks to Tiboreau for reposting many of the earlier Ferrell posts on the "Wes Ferrell" thread.
   17. sunnyday2 Posted: April 05, 2005 at 06:12 PM (#1233658)
O,

Yes, you're right, 1-4. I was thinking I had Wilson #2 because he made PHoM last year.

Actually I don't mind a low consensus score though I was surprised. I was low when we were considering more of the 19th century players, when I had a lot more IF and lot less OF on my ballot. But I had moved toward the middle of the pack in recent years, again to my surprise. My drop to the low end last year was very sudden is all.

Like I say, I don't mind a low consensus score. Actually, it is my badge. The scores are fun, thanks, O.
   18. sunnyday2 Posted: April 05, 2005 at 06:13 PM (#1233663)
O,

Yes, you're right, 1-4. I was thinking I had Wilson #2 because he made PHoM last year.

Actually I don't mind a low consensus score though I was surprised. I was low when we were considering more of the 19th century players, when I had a lot more IF and lot less OF on my ballot. But I had moved toward the middle of the pack in recent years, again to my surprise. My drop to the low end last year was very sudden is all.

Like I say, I don't mind a low consensus score. Actually, it is my badge. The scores are fun, thanks, O.
   19. Howie Menckel Posted: April 06, 2005 at 01:07 AM (#1234577)
Alltime voting pts through 1948, top 15

Pike 13399
VAN HALTREN 13200.5
JENNINGS 13089
DUFFY 12943
BECKLEY 12457
Thompson 12349
Bennett 11503
BROWNING 11294.5
GRIFITH 11100
Caruthers 10704
RYAN 10293
WADDELL 10168
H Stovey 9576
CHILDS 9049
WELCH 9046

Anyone with all-time votes for EVERYONE, feel free to post here or on a discussion thread. I am due for a 'reality check' on these; moving in a few weeks, and no idea where some of my stuff is. this is just adding from last year's list.

If these are right, we may get a new all-time leader after this next ballot!
   20. Ardo Posted: April 06, 2005 at 05:36 AM (#1235105)
I'm glad not to be among the highest consensus scores, for once. It seems there are two reasons for this.

I'm a bigger friend of Mendez and Lundy than most, and I'm absolutely sure that Averill and Roush are the best two MLB OFs available.
   21. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: April 06, 2005 at 12:51 PM (#1235312)
Did you know????

Van Haltren and Duffy are the only players to have reached 13,000 votes who have not been elected.

; )
   22. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: April 06, 2005 at 01:36 PM (#1235357)
And according the Howie, so is Jennings.

Vote Jennings in '49!!!
   23. Rick A. Posted: April 06, 2005 at 03:39 PM (#1235655)
Vote totals for everyone.

There is some discrepancies with what Howie posted above. I've checked every election so far with the values input in my spreadsheet, so these should be the correct values. Sorry about the length of it.

Pike        13399
Van Haltren 13201.5
Jennings    13097
Duffy       12942.5
Beckley     12475
Thompson    12349
Bennett     11503
Browning    11294.5
Griffith    11117
Caruthers   10704
Ryan        10293.5
Waddell     10179
Stovey      9576
Childs      9087
Welch       9053
Start       8378.5
McGinnity   8232
Pearce      8073
McVey       7985.5
Grant       7969.5
Galvin      6585
Bresnahan   6481
Sheckard    6377
Sutton      6070
Leach       5987
McPhee      5921
Wallace     5808
C. Jones    5135
J. Collins  4895
Monroe      4591
Radbourn    4558
Sisler      4461
Spalding    4449
Rixey       4397
Beckwith    4371
Williamson  4172
Richardson  4077
Kelley      3861
Sewell      3656
Doyle       3598
Torriente   3544
Groh        3515
McCormick   3148
G. Johnson  3118
SJ Williams 3066
R. Foster   3062
Roush       3060
Mendez      2953
Glasscock   2878
Coveleski   2748
Keeler      2739
Tiernan     2686
McGraw      2629
Redding     2609
TF Brown    2578
E. Collins  2308
Carey       2267
Joss        2264
Lloyd       2179
Suttles     2160
G. Wright   2145
B. Foster   2125
Chance      2095
Flick       2041
Frisch      2033
Crawford    2010
Heilmann    1966
Willis      1942
Goslin      1820
Ferrell     1794
Cravath     1784
Hooper      1780
Griffin     1726.5
Burkett     1722
Keefe       1719
J. Wilson   1707
Plank       1706
Poles       1698
Schang      1669
Cicotte     1632
F. Jones    1563
Grimes      1545
Veach       1460
Cobb        1334
Burns       1317
Magee       1309
Grove       1296
W. Johnson  1296
Vance       1285
Jackson     1285
Ruth        1272
Mullane     1270
Cross       1249
Gehrig      1248
Charleston  1238
Stearnes    1232
Hornsby     1219
Moore       1212
Gehringer   1198
Hartnett    1193
Alexander   1193
Simmons     1192
Wagner      1152
Santop      1126
Dunlap      1106
Cochrane    1102
Speaker     1102
Lajoie      1091
Young       1080
Mathewson   1065
Averill     1030
Rice        1019
Delahanty   1015
Davis       1011
Brouthers   1005
Wheat       997
Nichols     997
Connor      984
Rogan       978
Taylor      960
Dahlen      939
HR Baker    932
Clarke      920
Anson       900
H. Wright   878
Hamilton    877
Whitney     876
Mays        849
Lundy       844
Walsh       822
O'Neill     791
Long        778.5
Clarkson    756
Ewing       752.5
Rusie       720
Hill        706
O'Rourke    699
Bond        698
Lyons       692
Shocker     677
Konetchy    668
D. White    657
Hines       654
Traynor     653
Kelly       625
Ward        617
Faber       589
Terry       571
Gore        553
York        544
Cooper      511
Barnes      476
S. White    297
Bush        296
Meyerle     287
King        280
H. Wilson   271
Clements    265
Maranville  255
Dean        252
Nash        234
Pratt       231
Cuyler      216
CP Bell     209
Bancroft    207
Schalk      198
Leever      190
Fowler      157
Farrell     156
Petway      149
Hutchison   141
Foutz       136
Luque       129
Matthews    124
McGuire     119
D. Lyons    114
Youngs      111
Lazzeri     105
Arlett      104
Quinn       92
Fournier    91
R. Thomas   87
Orr         86
Tinker      80
Seymour     60
Berger      57
Donaldson   57
Phillippe   57
Gomez       56
Evers       55
J. Williams 53
Zimmer      51
Manush      46
G. Stovey   43
Hoyt        40
Daubert     37
Joyce       36
Latham      36
Chapman     35
H. Davis    31
Dalrymple   31
Creighton   29
J. Johnson  25
Stivetts    24
Smith       21
Hoy         20
DeMoss      19
Marcelle    17
McKean      17
Myer        15
Allen       14
Chesbro     14
Beaumont    13
H. Vaughn   13
Cuppy       10
Larkin      10
J. Thomas   9
Hahn        8
Tannehill   7
Gleason     7
Rommel      6
Buffinton   6
Powell      6
Hartsel     6
Selbach     6
Werden      6
Weyhing     6
McCarthy    6
O. Burns    6
Clapp       6
Nichol      6
Sunday      4
C. Welch    3
Cummings    1
   24. Rick A. Posted: April 06, 2005 at 03:43 PM (#1235671)
HOFer's who have never received a HOM vote:
(not counting HOF managers)
Bender, Haines, Hafey, Kelly, Bottomley, T. Jackson, any others?

Also, entering this list brings up the question -
Who is the best player who has never received a HOM vote? How do they compare to the bottom rung of HOFer's?
   25. Rick A. Posted: April 06, 2005 at 03:50 PM (#1235688)
Grove 1296
W. Johnson 1296


Interesting note. Grove and Johnson are frequently discussed as the two best pitchers all-time. They also have the highest vote total among first-time eligible pitchers. Seems even HOM voters couldn't decide between them. ;)
   26. Daryn Posted: April 06, 2005 at 05:30 PM (#1235886)
How did Cummings get one? Were six way ties allowed in the Big Inning?
   27. Jim Sp Posted: April 06, 2005 at 06:14 PM (#1236065)
Anyone else surprised that Berger and Bancroft didn't get a single vote, and Joss had only one vote? Those guys are actually pretty close to my ballot.
   28. SWW Posted: April 06, 2005 at 06:35 PM (#1236171)
Who is the best player who has never received a HOM vote?

Just based on a cursory glance, I'd say Herb Pennock.

But that's just a guess.
   29. ronw Posted: April 06, 2005 at 09:22 PM (#1236799)
HOFer's who have never received a HOM vote:
(not counting HOF managers)
Bender, Haines, Hafey, Kelly, Bottomley, T. Jackson, any others?


Also the aforementioned Herb Pennock, as well as Rube Marquard, Earle Combs, Freddie Lindstrom and Lloyd Waner. I think we're through the worst of the '30's, but Rick Ferrell is looming on the horizon as a potential shutout. With the love of catchers, though, he'll probably get a vote from someone.

Hall of Famer Happy Jack Chesbro wants to point out that so far he is beating Tommy McCarthy 14-6.


For best never to have received a vote, I'd actually take one of Frankie's boys, Jim Bottomley.
   30. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: April 06, 2005 at 10:16 PM (#1236898)
It doesn't surprise me that neither Berger nor Bancroft have received any votes since they are relatively new candidates. The best players never to have received a vote will most likely come from the 1990's.
   31. DavidFoss Posted: April 06, 2005 at 10:24 PM (#1236903)
Yeah, its only 1948 and its a lot harder to sneak onto the bottom of a random ballot than it used to be.
   32. jhwinfrey Posted: April 06, 2005 at 11:21 PM (#1236993)
8 returning candidates saw their support drop to new lows, in terms of percentage of possible points received:
Earl Averill -- 25.9
Joe Sewell -- 20.5
Edd Roush -- 16.2
Rube Waddell -- 15.5
Dick Redding -- 11.8
Sam Rice -- 6.5
Pie Traynor -- 3.9
Harry Hooper -- 0.6

Jud Wilson was the only returnee to have his stock rise.

Ted Lyons' debut of 56.5% ranks 2nd among unelected players. 27 members of the HoM debuted with less support than Lyons.
He also now ranks 2nd in highest vote percentage received in any election by currently unelected players:

1. Mule Suttles -- 59.6
2. Ted Lyons -- 56.5
3. John Beckwith -- 51.4
4. Hugh Duffy -- 51.1
5. George Van Haltren -- 48.3
   33. Howie Menckel Posted: April 07, 2005 at 12:19 AM (#1237171)
Rick A,
I'll go with your numbers. I've been unable to crunch this stuff perfectly, was settling for 'close.'
Thanks for the post.

By next year I hope to post my stuff like how many HOMers at each position each year, and so on..
   34. Brent Posted: April 07, 2005 at 04:46 AM (#1237916)
Who is the best player who has never received a HOM vote?

My consideration set of 65 players includes several who apparently haven't yet received an HoM vote:
George Uhle (# 28) - a poor man's Ferrell.
Johnny Kling (# 32) - short career, but an impressive peak for his era.
Andy Cooper (# 52) and
Nip Winters (# 58) - neglected NeL pitchers.
Herb Pennock (# 64)

There are almost certainly other "excluded" players that we haven't fully evaluated who could be candidates:
NeL - Heavy Johnson, Dave Malarcher, Alejandro Oms, others?
MinorL - Frank Shellenback (picked by Bill James as best career minor league pitcher), Johnny Bassler (800 games as respected catcher in AL, more than 1500 in PCL), others?
   35. TomH Posted: April 07, 2005 at 09:50 AM (#1238189)
NeLer Bingo "wanna be Mazeroski" DeMoss?
   36. Howie Menckel Posted: April 07, 2005 at 12:46 PM (#1238227)
Revising all-time top 20 with Rick A's help:


Pike 13399
VAN HALTREN 13201.5
JENNINGS 13097
Duffy 12942.5
BECKLEY 12475
Thompson 12349
Bennett 11503
BROWNING 11294.5
GRIFFITH 11117
Caruthers 10704

RYAN 10293.5
WADDELL 10179
Stovey 9576
CHILDS 9087
WELCH 9053
Start 8378.5
McGinnity 8232
Pearce 8073
McVey 7985.5
Grant 7969.5
(next actives: Bresnahan 6481, Leach 5987, CJones 5135, Monroe 4591, Sisler 4461, Rixey 4397, Beckwith 4371, Sewell 3656)
   37. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: April 07, 2005 at 01:29 PM (#1238252)
Here's a few that grab me at each position as intersting for not having received a vote---

C: Muddy Ruel, Wilbur Robinson, Kling
1B: Bottomley, Fred Tenney, Lu Blue, Joe Judge, Kelly
2B: Max Bishop, Claude Ritchey
3B: Harry Steinfeldt, Jerry Denny, Billy Shindle, Larry Gardner, Ossie Bluege
SS: Roger Peckinpaugh, Jackson
CF: Waner, Clyde Milan, Cy Williams, Sy Seymour
RF/LF : Babe Herman, Wildfire Schulte, Hv Johnson
SP: Bill Dineen, Geo Mullin, Bob Shawkey, Cooper, Ted Trent, Guy Hecker, Uhle, Winters
SP? RP?: Firpo Marberry
   38. Howie Menckel Posted: April 09, 2005 at 12:09 AM (#1242309)
All-time NEGRO LEAGUER voting points totals, 1898-1948

GRANT 7969.5
Monroe 4591
Beckwith 4371
TORRIENTE 3544
HR JOHNSON 3118
SJ WILLIAMS 3066
R FOSTER 3062
MENDEZ 2953
Redding 2609
LLOYD 2179
Suttles 2160
B FOSTER 2125
J WILSON 1707
Poles 1698
CHARLESTON 1238
STEARNES 1232
Moore 1212
SANTOP 1126
ROGAN 978
Taylor 960
Lundy 844
HILL 706
S White 297
CP Bell 209
Fowler 157
Petway 149
Donaldson 57
G Stovey 43
J Johnson 25
DeMoss 19
Marcelle 17
Allen 14


(FYI, who is 'J Thomas' with 9 voting pts?)


I have us electing 14 of 32 to get a vote, not couinting 'Thomas'.
   39. Howie Menckel Posted: April 09, 2005 at 12:32 AM (#1242405)
All-time ACTIVE vote totals, 1898 through 1948, by position (1000+ pts, or top 5 at position, or 200 pts in 1948)

C - Bresnahan 6481, Schang 1669, Clements 265, Schalk 198, Farrell 156
1B - Beckley 12475, Sisler 4461, Chance 2095, Taylor 960, Konetchy 668
2B - Childs 9087, Monroe 4591, Doyle 3598, Dunlap 1106, S White 297
3B - (Leach) (Beckwith) Williamson 4172, McGraw 2629, Cross 1249, Traynor 653, Meyerle 287
SS - Jennings 13097, Beckwith 4371, Sewell 3656, Moore 1212, Lundy 844
OF - Van Haltren 13201.5, Duffy 12942.5, Browning 11294.5, Ryan 10293.5, Leach 5987, C Jones 5135, Roush 3060, Tiernan 2686, Suttles 2160, Cravath 1784, Hooper 1780, Griffin 1726.5, Poles 1698, F Jones 1563, Veach 1460, Burns 1317, Averill 1030, Rice 1019
SP - Griffith 11117, Waddell 10179, Welch 9053, Rixey 4397, McCormick 3148, Mendez 2953, Redding 2609, Joss 2264, Willis 1942, Ferrell 1794, Cicotte 1632, Grimes 1545, Mullane 1270, Lyons 692
   40. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 09, 2005 at 01:18 AM (#1242607)
(FYI, who is 'J Thomas' with 9 voting pts?)

Jules Thomas
   41. Gary A Posted: April 09, 2005 at 03:25 AM (#1243030)
Only seven of the 33 NeLers who've received votes are pitchers, which seems low; four of those seven have been inducted. I think we're leaving out a whole tier of NeL pitchers, like Andy Cooper, Dizzy Dismukes, William Bell, etc., who may not in the end be HOMers but probably deserve a few votes.

There are also position players who certainly rank with (or above) the likes of Judy Johnson and Bruce Petway. Frank Duncan, for example, is probably very comparable to Petway in career value. Hurley McNair, George Carr, and Candy Jim Taylor are some examples of players who may not be HOMers, but deserve a little scrutiny.
   42. Howie Menckel Posted: April 09, 2005 at 03:35 AM (#1243039)
Interesting, Gary A.

I'd love for your meticulous bookkeeping and my modest extrication to hone our voting skills even more.
   43. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: April 09, 2005 at 05:48 PM (#1243259)
Well, I think the reason that Petway got votes and that it is very unlikely that Duncan will is that Petway was eligible 20, 30 years earlier when there were fewer ballot worthy candidates.
   44. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 09, 2005 at 06:11 PM (#1243340)
Well, I think the reason that Petway got votes and that it is very unlikely that Duncan will is that Petway was eligible 20, 30 years earlier when there were fewer ballot worthy candidates.

Bingo. Petway had much less competition to deal with.

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