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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, August 01, 2005

1957 Ballot

Prominent newbies: Joe DiMaggio, Lou Boudreau, Bobby Doerr, Charlie Keller, Buck O’Neill and Max Manning.

Top-ten returnees: John Beckwith, Billy Herman, Stan Hack, Joe MedwickRed Ruffing, Hughie Jennings, Earl Averill and Wes Ferrell.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 01, 2005 at 01:59 PM | 111 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. jimd Posted: August 09, 2005 at 01:06 AM (#1531130)
(Cast)

Ballot for 1957 (amended)

Read previous ballots if you want more depth on my reasons for all but the latest eligibles.

Still revising my syste (yet again). Maybe next election.

(Revised to include lost causes.)

1) J. DIMAGGIO -- Easy #1 here.

2) H. JENNINGS -- If he had any kind of career, he'd be first-ballot, inner circle.

3) W. FERRELL -- Great peak and longer than some of the other high peak pitchers. To me, an 8 year prime at Grove's level is HOM-worthy.

4) C. CHILDS -- Best offensive 2b of the 90's.

5) J. SEWELL -- Nice combination of WARP peak and career.

6) F. DUNLAP -- Great two-way player; bypassed for some reason.

7) B. VEACH -- Good peak relative to great competition. Was an all-star OF longer than Medwick, Averill, etc.

8) J. BECKWITH -- Belongs.

9) G. VAN HALTREN -- Not much more to say.

10) F. JONES -- Still an all-star player when he walked away.

11) G. SISLER -- Overrated but still good.

12) B. HERMAN -- Moving up after checking the competition.

13) T. LEACH -- Pennants Added convinced me that my system underrates him.

14) R. MARANVILLE -- Very long career playing great defense; needs a little more bat.

15) B. MACKEY -- Catcher bonus gets him on ballot.
   102. jimd Posted: August 09, 2005 at 01:11 AM (#1531159)
Yes, I did miss that discussion. While I usually read most posts here, my personal life has gotten even busier due to medical issues with my mother-in-law which have further reduced my free time the last three weeks.
   103. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 09, 2005 at 01:13 AM (#1531171)
Thanks, Jim. We greatly appreciate that. We didn't want to discourage you in any way into not voting again as part of group.
   104. jimd Posted: August 09, 2005 at 01:22 AM (#1531220)
We didn't want to discourage you in any way into not voting again as part of group.

I wouldn't have taken it that way. It's my fault for missing the ruling. (It did take quite a while in coming - 1951 being my first "lost cause" ballot - though that's not as slow as our legal system can be).
   105. karlmagnus Posted: August 09, 2005 at 01:27 AM (#1531242)
5 "years" is nothing! But I'm very glad a ruling has come down supporting the maintenance of lost causes, since I probably have more than anybody, but am hopeful that some of them will revive in years to come -- and I don't know which. Dunlap, for example, could probably do with some Chris Cobb-like investigation of his non-ML career.
   106. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 09, 2005 at 01:28 AM (#1531246)
(It did take quite a while in coming - 1951 being my first "lost cause" ballot - though that's not as slow as our legal system can be).

:-)

I kept forgetting to remind Joe about it. The other thing was that it wouldn't have changed the outcome of any of the elections, so it wasn't a major deal. Next year will be a different story, however (I imagine).

my personal life has gotten even busier due to medical issues with my mother-in-law which have further reduced my free time the last three weeks.

Sorry to hear that, Jim. Hope things improve for her.
   107. karlmagnus Posted: August 09, 2005 at 03:28 AM (#1531546)
Without wishing to be diffcult, I think delaying the closure and result to this extent is wrong, and shouldn't be allowed. Rules are rules.
   108. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 09, 2005 at 03:38 AM (#1531554)
Without wishing to be diffcult, I think delaying the closure and result to this extent is wrong, and shouldn't be allowed. Rules are rules.

Joe will be posting his ballot in a few minutes. Besides, in the past, we have allowed ballots past the alloted time if the election was not a close one. If it had been, I would have closed up shop at 8 PM even though the Commish hadn't voted yet. Joe's ballot would have had a far greater impact than now (which is very small).
   109. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 09, 2005 at 04:01 AM (#1531581)
I'm showing the player's "JAWS" score this time around. Starting next week, I'll show JAWS for both WS and WARP. For an explanation of the methodology, check out this article by Jay Jaffe at Baseball Prospectus. The scores included will add in my assumptions for war credit as well.

Sorry this is late guys, but the SABR Convention, combined with a busy day at work at home prevented me from getting this in sooner. I apologize for the delay.

1. Joe DiMaggio (n/e) - Duh. Cool name, if you just trade an ino for a aggi, I'm him! Maybe a touch overrated by history, but a clear inner circle HoMer.

2. Billy Herman (3) - With war credit we're looking at a 2B with 2600 career hits. He also had a league average walk rate and an above average SLG. One helluva player, as his five top-10 MVP finishes would suggest. I see him as quite similar to Lou Whitaker actually, though Herman hit for a higher average and Whitaker walked more and had a little more pop.

3. Eppa Rixey (4) - If a few things out of his control were different (like the elimination of WWI), Rixey would likely have won 300 games. A Nolan Ryan / Don Sutton / Phil Niekro HoMer.

4. Jake Beckley (6) - A smidge below Rafael Palmeiro, they were basically the same player, though Palmeiro was a little bit better with the stick, 1B was much tougher in Beckley's day.

5. Gavy Cravath (2) - Too much to ignore. Either he was a freak of nature, or there's a lot missing. I vote for the latter. Check out his thread for deeper discussion of the specifics, including a great analysis from Gadfly. He's the kind of guy we were hoping to catch when we started this project. I've dropped him a bit this week, I think I may have been giving him a little too much extra credit.

6. John Beckwith (7) - Bumping him up some more. I still think it's much more realistic to consider him a 3B that played some SS, than as a SS.

7. Charley Jones (8) - The Albert Belle/Ralph Kiner of the early NL.

8. Lou Boudreau (n/e) - Derek Jeter of the 1940s? Clearly ahead of Joe Sewell, and I have to slot him behind Herman as of now.

9. Clark Griffith (9) - What exactly is it that separates McGinnity from Griffith? I've dropped Jones and Griffith below the three 1B this time.

10. Stan Hack (10) - I feel like he should be higher, but I can't put him ahead of any of these guys. I think this guy would have been my favorite player if I grew up in the 1930s. He was the Buddy Bell of the 30s/40s, but significantly better (though his career was shorter). I see him as the high end of what Kevin Youkilis could someday be, if everything breaks right for him. It's amazing how many great 3B didn't get their careers off the ground until they were 24-25 years old.

11. Tommy Leach (11) - It is so easy to underrate the guys that do everything well and nothing spectacularly.

12. George Van Haltren (12) - I don't know what to do with this guy. You can make a solid argument that he could rank anywhere from 1 to 31.

13. Ernie Lombardi (13) - Looks an awful lot like Gabby Hartnett and Mickey Cochrane to me . . . I'm backing off a bit, as I was convinced that his OPS+ does overstate his offense due to the DPs, and his lack of peak somewhat dilutes the impact. However, I was looking over the DMB all-time disk, and they gave him a fair range rating (not poor), and also a very good arm. Are the reports of his awful defense greatly exagerrated? Are 1500 games at C and a 125 career OPS+ more common than I realize? I'm still a big fan.

14. Bill Monroe (14) - I still really like this guy.

15. Joe Medwick (15) - Has to rank ahead of Averill and Roush, at least based on MLB (I'm thinking of Averill's PCL credit).

Deeper in the backlog:

16. Biz Mackey (16) - After further review he does appear to be closer to Schang/Bresnahan than Cochrane on the catcher spectrum.

17. Cool Papa Bell (17) - Awful lot of career value there. Bill James had him in his top 100 all-time. Which of us is missing the boat?

18. Joe Gordon (18) - Clearly below Herman, clearly above the rest of the 2B pack.

19. Bobby Doerr (n/e) - Too close to call with Gordon right now.

20. Wally Schang (19) - If he'd only played a little more in the years he did play.

21. Red Ruffing (20) - I severely underrated him last week. Still think we are overrating him as a group.

22. Wes Ferrell (21) - Great pitcher (for a few years) and good hitter (for a pitcher). I wish I could get him higher, but I can't say I'd want his career over any of those ranked ahead of him. I think his hitting trumps Harder's career value, but it's close and could go either way.

23. Earl Averill (22) - I still think I'm pegging him too low, but don't see why I should move him higher. How much PCL credit should I be giving him?

24. Edd Roush (23) - Should have had him about equal with Averill.

25. Mel Harder (24) - Forgotten everywhere but Cleveland it seems like, but he was a really good pitcher. With Grove hurt, he was arguably (Hubbell?) the best pitcher in baseball from 1933-35.

26. George Sisler (25) - in penalizing him for his 2nd act, I was underrating his first act, though I think it is somewhat overrated by the consensus. His peak wasn't that great. I realize that probably sounds confusing as hell.

27. Joe Sewell (26) - I'd been underrating him. Most of you were overrating him. We're getting closer to a consensus it appears. Very glad he wasn't rushed in. A little bump this week. The more I think about it, I think I'd take his career over Hughie's.

28. Hughie Jennings (27) - I'm feeling a little more career value oriented of late, Jennings obviously drops on those days. He's down a little more this week.

29. Mike Griffin (28) - a great defensive player. He could hit too. He's been forgotten here . . .

30. Jimmy Ryan (29) - very good player. I've been convinced he should be behind George Van Haltren.

31. Hugh Duffy (30) - not quite as good as the glut above him.

32. Ben Taylor (31) - had slipped off my radar. He's pretty close to Beckley, but this is a tight ballot. I ranking him above Roush as a compliment.

33. Dobie Moore (32) - Is this too low? Convince me I should have him higher.

34. Vic Willis (33) - I could easily see him much higher on the ballot. Notice the trend?

35. Dick Lundy (34) - Back on the radar. Not as good as Sewell.

36. George Scales (35) - I'll side with those who say he was similar to, but not as good as Sewell or Moore. Is it wrong to have him behind Lundy?

37. Charlie Keller (n/e) - Nice player, but I couldn't put him above Jennings could I? I will look at him more closely next week, but at best I could see him a little above Henrich.

38. Tommy Henrich (36) - I could see him higher, but don't ever see him elected.

39. Lefty Gomez (37) - Very nice career. Not as nice as Ferrell's. 177-114 RSI record, which is excellent. Too bad he didn't pitch longer.

Buck O'Neill (n/e) - I don't see it, and neither does our electorate, judging from the comments on his thread.
   110. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 09, 2005 at 04:03 AM (#1531582)
"I'm showing the player's "JAWS" score this time around. Starting next week, I'll show JAWS for both WS and WARP."

Uh, the first sentence should have been deleted when the second one was added . . .
   111. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 09, 2005 at 04:07 AM (#1531584)
The election is now over. Results will be posted shortly.
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