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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, October 24, 2005

1963 Ballot

Newbies: Roy Campanella, George Kell, Walker Cooper, Artie Wilson, and Piper Davis.

Returnees: Monte Irvin, Wes Ferrell, Red Ruffing, Joe Medwick, Eppa Rixey, Biz Mackey, Clark Griffith, and George Sisler.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 24, 2005 at 02:19 AM | 115 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. Patrick W Posted: October 31, 2005 at 11:26 PM (#1713422)
Go Go White Sox! (Or as I like to think of it, Go Go Anybody But Houston!) More repeating comments, more apologies.

1. Roy Campanella (n/a), Bkn (N) C (’48-’57) (1963) – The catcher bonus for his MLB career gets him to #11 on this ballot. It doesn’t take too much imagination for his NeL career to jump to No. 1.
2. Red Ruffing (3), N.Y. (A) SP (’25-’47) (1955) – Looks as good as Ted Lyons did.
3. Bobby Doerr (4), Bost. (A), 2B (’37-’51) (1960) – Reaches Boudreau’s career value but takes about 1700 more AB’s (War Adj. Up) to do so. Boudreau’s peak is once again the difference.
4. Bucky Walters (5), Cinc. – Phila. (N) SP (’33-’47) (1961) – Dropping Leonard for poor hitting means I have to raise Bucky. So the consensus score is screwed either way.
5. Monte Irvin (8), N.Y. (N), 1B (‘40-‘56) (1963) – I’m now more confident in Irvin than I am in Oms or Brown. Last year’s results say I won’t have another chance to raise him higher, so P-Hall this year.
6. Alejandro Oms (6), Cuba (--), CF (‘21-‘37) – I’m worried about the slippery slope here of voting for a non-US based career, but he apparently had great value and did play in the NeL.
7. Willard Brown (7), KC (--), 1B (‘34-‘48) – Very closely ranked to Oms, but Alex gets a bigger boost from peak.
8. Dutch Leonard (9), Wash. (A) SP (’34-’53) – 4 great years before the war, 2 great years after the war, fairly average in between. Dizzy Trout with 500 more IP.
9. Biz Mackey (10), Hilldale (--), C / 3B (’20-’41) – He’ll make it in on my ballot someday.
10. Dizzy Trout (11), Detr. (A) SP (’39-’52) – Trout is causing me to wonder how much credit I should award to PRAA as opposed to PRAR. Looking at translated careers with a 50/50 split, Trout’s pitching value equals that of Ruffing with over 1500+ fewer IP. My peak factor helps Trout out even more. Is a 50/50 split for RAR/RAA fair or is it too much? Maybe Ruffing is elected before this issue is resolved.
11. Joe Gordon (12), N.Y. (A), SS (’38-’50) – I have Sewell being slightly better than Gordon with the glove, and Gordon with every other advantage between the two. It’s a slight advantage in most cases, and it’s not enough to rank Gordon any higher on the ballot than here.
12. Bobo Newsom (13), Wash. – Detr. – St.L (A) SP (’34-’47) – I’m actually kinda glad he made the ballot, because it was quite an ordeal to combine his stats during the 8 years he was traded; all that work didn’t go for naught. Like Leonard, his peak was before the war and he had a reprieve in ’46-’47, but he couldn’t capitalize on the lesser competition in ’42,’43,’45. Looking good for the P-Hall, he’ll never make it in the real thing because we won’t be able to decide on a cap.
13. Phil Rizzuto(14), N.Y. (A), SS (’41-’56) – At first look, better than Sewell, worse than Gordon.
14. Joe Sewell (15), Clev. (A), SS / 3B (’20-’33) (1939) – The great defense of Sewell trumps the modest offense advantage of Hack.
15. Dom DiMaggio (--), Bost. (A), CF (’40-’52) – 2nd best OF to date for FRAR (Speaker), and Dom’s rate is much better than Tris. That, along with the fact that he’s not Marion with the bat, gets him on the ballot. 2nd highest war credit bonus to date (Greenberg).

Wes Ferrell – He’s under consideration.
Eppa Rixey – Doesn’t appear to be a whole lot different than a dozen other pitchers who have been summarily reject by the voters (Harder, Passeau, Shocker, Warneke, Grimes, …).
Clark Griffith – In that vast cloud of players just off the ballot.
George Sisler – Makes Jennings seem ballot-worthy by comparison.
Joe Medwick – Drops out this year.
Cool Papa Bell – Could be on the ballot, but isn’t.

A lot of players were in last year’s top ten, but not in my top 15 this year.
   102. KJOK Posted: November 01, 2005 at 01:12 AM (#1713717)
BTW, I'm moving tomorrow, so I would greatly appreciate not seeing the ballots come in at the last second tonight (if that's possible :-).

Sorry John, but just saw this as I've been too busy to get my ballot done before the last second...
   103. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 01, 2005 at 01:28 AM (#1713747)
Sorry John, but just saw this as I've been too busy to get my ballot done before the last second...

Not a problem, Kevin, since I did what needed to be done today in regard to packing.
   104. yest Posted: November 01, 2005 at 01:37 AM (#1713775)
jugding how page 2 looks fine and page 1 was as big as the longest line with out a space I agree with Tiboreau's logic on the source of the problom
   105. ronw Posted: November 01, 2005 at 01:37 AM (#1713776)
Not a problem, Kevin, since I did what needed to be done today in regard to packing.

Murphy's packing list:

Computer with appropriate Internet connection - check
Baseball books - check
Baseball memorabilia - check
Baseball equipment - check

Everything else - let the wife and/or movers handle it.
   106. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 01, 2005 at 01:49 AM (#1713798)
Computer with appropriate Internet connection - check
Baseball books - check
Baseball memorabilia - check
Baseball equipment - check


I actually packed most of that stuff a while back, though I still have the NBJHA, Riley's encylopedia, one of the STATS encyclopedias, and Holways' book on the Negro Leagues.

I do miss the rest, however... :-(
   107. OCF Posted: November 01, 2005 at 01:52 AM (#1713805)
47 ballots. Mike Webber returning from one year off. We still need Joe Dimino, KJOK, and Max Parkinson.
   108. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: November 01, 2005 at 01:53 AM (#1713808)
Mr. Speaker, I'd like to revise and extend my remarks. (Not changing the ballot, just throwing in a few comments.)

Campanella's a pretty obvious #1 to me. His ML career is pretty similar to Bresnahan's (except he was all C), and when you add in all the Negro League credit, it's not really in doubt.

Irvin moves up a couple of spots. Based on the MLEs, I guesstimated his career OPS+ at 141, and everyone who did better than that had significantly less PAs. Plus, if he was a good enough fielder to play a significant amount of time at SS, he's clearly ahead of the rest of the corner OFs.

I like Rizzuto a lot. With war credit, he's almost a match for Sewell, except that his strength is defense and Sewell's is offense. Sewell's just a bit ahead because I know the offensive measurements are more reliable. That whole Sewell-Rizzuto-Childs-Doerr-Elliott-Moore bunch of IFs is a big mess that needs more work on my part.

Here's 16-36 in full, there were no major changes from last week:
16-20: Ruffing, Medwick, Johnson, Oms, Mackey
21-25: Cravath, Clarkson, Rixey, Bell, Beckley
26-30: Taylor, Kiner, Mendez, Gordon, Stephens
31-36: Walters, Ryan, Sisler, Waddell, Lundy, Griffith.

I do think Bus Clarkson's record is pretty impressive, but comparing him to Elliott, I find him similar but just a touch behind.

And since I usually do it, my HoM/not PHoM guys: Averrill 6A, Terry 6B, Carey 15A, Thompson 27A, Foster 27B, Jennings 31A
   109. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 01, 2005 at 01:56 AM (#1713815)
We still need Joe Dimino, KJOK, and Max Parkinson.

Joe and Kevin will be a little late (since it's not close, I'll extend the deadline a little), while Max e-mailed me to say that he was too busy to create a ballot.
   110. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: November 01, 2005 at 01:59 AM (#1713827)
Just in the nick of time . . . did not have time to reconsider the 1962 ballot, but I was able to give full attention to slotting the new class.

1. Roy Campanella C (n/e) - Has a pretty strong argument for being the #2 peak catcher we've seen, behind only Gibson. Just a monster in 1951, 1953 and 1955.
2. Monte Irvin OF/IF (3) - Great hitter, nearly 400 WS after giving him full credit for Negro Leagues and military service. 18-years, 150 OPS+ = HoMer. Feel less comfortable having him behind Campanella than ahead of Ruffing. Shouldn't matter in the end . . .
3. Red Ruffing SP (4) - Not much of a peak, but with war credit he is 3rd among pitchers we've seen in translated IP, meaning he pitched forever. With war credit I have him as one of just 5 pitchers we've seen with 300 translated wins (he hit 300 exactly with my war credit).
4. Eppa Rixey SP (5) - Like Ruffing, a Nolan Ryan / Don Sutton / Phil Niekro HoMer. Very similar Ruffing. Low peak for pitchers on this list, but so much career value.
5. Jake Beckley 1B (6) - A smidge below Rafael Palmeiro, they were basically the same player, though Palmeiro was a little bit better with the stick, 1B was much tougher in Beckley's day.
6. Gavy Cravath RF (7) - Too much to ignore. Either he was a freak of nature, or there's a lot missing. I vote for the latter. Check out his thread for deeper discussion of the specifics, including a great analysis from Gadfly. He's the kind of guy we were hoping to catch when we started this project.
7. Luke Easter 1B (8) - This is a conservative ranking (for me anyway, some see it as very liberal I'm sure). There's a case that could be made that if I'm going to rank him at all he should either be #3 or off the ballot. But I think this is fair as those ahead of him could reasonably be ranked ahead of Easter even with the extensive projections. I see him as extremely similar to Cravath, and he really did mash from 1937-54.
8. Ralph Kiner LF (9) - Was Harmon Killebrew a Hall of Famer through 1968? Reggie through 1978? How about Albert Belle? All are comparable to Kiner, the Albert Belle of the late 1940s and early 1950s. I'm not normally a peak guy, but hit peak is astronomical. I'm not convinced his D was as bad as some say either. His defensive WS numbers aren't terrible.
9. Charley Jones LF (10) - The Albert Belle/Ralph Kiner of the early NL
10. Wes Ferrell SP (11) - Best peak of any pitcher on the ballot and fantastic hitter for a pitcher. Flew up the chart as I re-evaluated pitchers in 1962.
11. Phil Rizzuto SS (12) - War credit has him right about 300 WS and 95 WARP. Looks like I'm his best friend :-(
12. Clark Griffith SP (13) - What exactly is it that separates McGinnity or Three-Finger Brown from Griffith?
13. Joe Medwick LF (14) - Looking at Kiner made me realize I had Medwick too low.
14. George Van Haltren CF (15) - He could rank anywhere from 1 to 30, very tough to evaluate.
15. Tommy Leach 3B/CF (16) - It is so easy to underrate the guys that do everything well and nothing spectacularly.

On the brink . . .

16. Vern Stephens SS (17) - I love shortstop that can hit like outfielders and play above average defense, call me crazy :-) Clearly better than Doerr IMO.
17. Bill Monroe 2B (18) - Been on my ballot forever, haven't been convinced that this is a mistake.
18. Ernie Lombardi C (19) - I was convinced that his OPS+ overstates his offense due to the DPs, and his lack of peak somewhat dilutes the impact. However, I was looking over the DMB all-time disk, and they gave him a fair range rating (not poor), and also a very good arm. Are the reports of his awful defense greatly exagerrated? Are 1500 games at C and a 125 career OPS+ more common than I realize? I'm still a big fan.
19. Biz Mackey C (20) - After further review he appears to be closer to Schang/Bresnahan than Cochrane on the catcher spectrum.
20. Cool Papa Bell CF (21) - Awful lot of career value there. Bill James had him in his top 100 all-time. Which of us is missing the boat?
21. Jimmy Ryan OF (22) - Getting bumped again - could easily be as high as Van Haltren, why did he fade so much?
22. Joe Gordon 2B (23) - Clearly above the rest of the 2B pack.
23. Bobby Doerr SS (24) - Too close to call w/Gordon right now.
24. Wally Schang C (25) - If he'd only played a little more in the years he did play.
25. George Sisler 1B (26) - I think he is somewhat overrated by the consensus. His peak was great, but has been overstated.
26. Dutch Leonard SP (27) - Pretty underrated when you look at his W-L record. Prospectus loves him, and Win Shares likes him a lot. A ton of career value and the 4th most saves of any pitcher in my consideration set.
27. Dizzy Trout SP (28) - Great pitcher from 1943-46. Moved up more with my pitcher re-evaluation.
28. Tommy Bridges SP (29) - Unspectacular peak, but a lot of career value.
29. Bucky Walters SP (30) - I was underrating him. I took a look at his RSI page (if Chris ever reinstates it), he pitched against amazingly tough competition, and pitched well against it. He was a great hitter too, which further understates his record. His record is similar to Ferrell's (201-157 vs. 190-131), longer career though not quite the quality - on the surface. Ferrell was a better hitter, but he doesn't get nearly the edge that he does over other pitchers. And when you throw in a MOWP of .526 vs. .497, it makes a very close call. I'm leaving Ferrell ahead for now because two of Walters' big years were during the war, but these two are extremely close.
30. Quincy Trouppe C (31) - Good player, a smidge below Mackey and Schang.
31. Bob Elliott 3B (32) - Not very far behind Hack, who I would place between Monroe and Medwick. I cannot see how one could rank Childs or Doyle ahead of Elliott (2B pre-1920 being equivalent to 3B post 1935).
32. Urban Shocker SP (33) - He was one heckuva pitcher. Never had a bad year, ultra consistent with a nice peak.
33. Burleigh Grimes SP (34) - Had dropped him out of consideration wrongly. Like Walters, faced pretty steep competition (.520 RSI), so his 256-226 RSI and 107 ERA+ understates his record somewhat.
34. Roger Bresnahan C/CF (35) - Great OBP and gets a career value boost for being a catcher.
35. Bob Johnson LF (36) - I could have him too low. I need to be careful about purging guys that aren't close to my top 15, but well ahead of others, he was one of those that was lost in the shuffle somehow. One powerful hitter.
36. Dom DiMaggio CF (37) - With war credit he has enough career value and a solid peak. As was mentioned in his thread, a poor man's Richie Ashburn.
37. Joe Sewell SS (38) - Very glad he wasn't rushed in. Good, but not great, peak isn't enough to overcome his short career.
38. Johnny Pesky SS/3B (39) - Basically the same player as Sewell but not as good defensively.
39. Willard Brown LF (40) - Tough to peg after considering his incredibly low walk rates.
40. Ed Williamson 3B (41) - Still on the board after 60+ years.
41. Dick Redding SP (42) - Can't see him as better than Grimes, but he's back on the board.
42. Rube Waddell SP (43) - Another one that I shouldn't have dropped.
43. Walker Cooper C (n/e) - Great hitter for a catcher, just a smidge below Bresnahan and Schang.
44. Mike Griffin CF (44) - Great defensive player, could hit too. Keeping his memory alive . . .
45. Hugh Duffy OF (45) - Has to be behind Jimmy Ryan.
46. Edd Roush CF (46) - Weak league hurts him.
47. Ben Taylor 1B (47) - Not that far off Beckley, shows how tight the ballot is.
48. Dobie Moore SS (48) - Great peak, short career, even with military team credit.
49. Mel Harder SP (49) - Forgotten everywhere but Cleveland it seems like, but he was a really good pitcher. With Grove hurt, he was arguably (Hubbell?) the best pitcher in baseball from 1933-35.
50. Vic Willis SP (50) - I think I should have him higher, but I can't place him ahead of any of these guys.
51. Bobo Newsom SP (51) - Similar to Leonard, kind of flies under the radar, but had a good career while he was bouncing all over the place, not much in terms of peak.
52. Dick Lundy SS (52) - Back on the radar, not as good as Sewell IMO.
53. Alejandro Oms OF (53) - Convince me if you think this is too low, I'm listening.
54. George Scales SS (54) - I'll side with those who say he was similar to, but not as good as Sewell or Moore. Is it wrong to have him behind Lundy?
55. Charlie Keller LF (55) - God could he hit. But his career makes Kiner's look long.
56. Pete Browning CF (56) - He's on the board again, but I cannot see ranking him over Keller. I just don't think the AA was all that good when Browning dominated it, he was a good player, but his stats need serious deflation.
57. Cupid Childs 2B (57) - Good hitter, but 2B was a hitter's position in his time.
58. Larry Doyle 2B (58) - Ditto
59. John McGraw 3B (59) - More in-season durability would have significantly raised his ranking.
60. Tommy Henrich RF (60) - Don't forget to give him 3 years of war credit. I think Moises Alou is a very good comp.

Artie Wilson SS - If he really was born in 1916, he's got a pretty decent case, I will look at him closer next time, hopefully the issues with his translation will be resolved by then.

George Kell 3B - Basically the post-war version of Carney Lansford. Both had a 111 OPS+ with a similar OBP/SLG mix. Both had a FPct a good 15-20 points over their league. A good player, but a poor Hall of Fame choice. Not in my top 60.

Jose Mendez SP - I reconsidered him a few weeks back, but I still see him behind Gomez (I like the Hippo Vaughn comparison on his thread, if that's off, please tell me why), and I don't see the need to go lower with the rankings.

Leon Day SP - I see him as Bucky Walters minus a year without the peak. If that's an inaccurate assessment, please help me out.
   111. KJOK Posted: November 01, 2005 at 02:03 AM (#1713840)
Using OWP w/playing time, Player Overall Wins Score, and defense (Win Shares/BP/Fielding Runs) for position players, applied to .500 baseline. Using Runs Saved Above Average, Player Overall WInsScore and Support Neutral Fibonacci Wins for Pitchers. For Position Players AND Pitchers, heavily weight comparison vs. contemporaries, and lightly look at WARP1.

1. ROY CAMPANELLA, C. 24 POW, 64 WARP1, 206 RCAP & .586 OWP in 4,816 PA’s. Def: EXCELLENT. Started the voting period 3rd on my ballot, but after further review moved up to #1.

2. JAKE BECKLEY, 1B. 23 POW, 115 WARP1, 245 RCAP & .596 OWP in 10,492 PAs. Def: AVERAGE. A very good for a long time player. Best first baseman from 1880 – 1920.

3. ROGER BRESNAHAN, C. 23 POW, 75 WARP1, 282 RCAP & .651 OWP in 5,373 PA’s. Def: AVERAGE. Best Catcher from 1880s – 1915.

4. JOHN McGRAW, 3B. 20 POW, 78 WARP1, 459 RCAP & .727 OWP in 4,909 PAs. Def: AVERAGE. Was CAREER ALL-TIME OBP% leader until Ruth qualifies in 1923, EVEN adjusting for League, and is STILL #3 behind Williams and Ruth. AND he played 3B, where offensive output was generally very low. Plus led his team to 3 consecutive championships. Oh, AND at least 2nd best 3B between 1875-1900!

5. FRANK CHANCE, 1B. 23 POW, 72 WARP1, 308 RCAP & .720 OWP in 5,099 PAs. Def: VERY GOOD. Excellent hitter and good fielder back when 1st base was MUCH more important defensively. Top seasons better than Beckley’s best. Loses out to Beckley as best post-1880 1st baseman due to playing time.

6. RED RUFFING, P. 31 POW, 113 WARP1, 170 RSAA, 199 Neut. Fibonacci Wins & 109 ERA+ in 4,344 innings. Batting prowess puts him ahead of the pitching glut.

7. CLARK GRIFFITH, P. 28 POW, 83 WARP1, 256 RSAA, 199 Neut. Fibonacci Wins & 121 ERA+ in 3,385 innings. Career-wise, close to McGinnity. One of the best pitchers of the 1890s.

8. EPPA RIXEY, P. 24 POW, 99 WARP1, 217 RSAA, 229 Neut. Fibonacci Wins & 115 ERA+ in 4,495 innings. Closest comp is probably Red Faber.

9. QUINCY TROUPPE, C. Estimated 115 OPS+ over 8,462 PA’s. Def: AVERAGE. Comp looks to be Gary Carter. One of the best major league teams was willing to give him a chance at age 39, which I think says something about his talent.

10. MONTE IRVIN, LF/SS. Estimated 151 OPS+ over 8,278 PA’s. Def: VERY GOOD. Gary Sheffield may be the best overall comp.

11. JOE SEWELL, SS. 35 POW, 103 WARP1, 346 RCAP & .549 OWP in 8,830 PAs. Def: VERY GOOD. Comp is Barry Larkin. Best major league SS of the 1920’s, AND 3rd best SS of 1910-1930 period. Not as much ahead of Dave Bancroft as I originally thought.

12. BOB ELLIOTT, 3B. 21 POW, , 90 WARP1, 241 RCAP & .610 OWP in 8,190 PAs. Def: AVERAGE. 3rd best 3rd baseman in 1930-59 timeframe.

13. BEN TAYLOR, 1B. Estimated 138 OPS+ over 9,091 PA’s. Def: FAIR. Comps are Fred McGriff and Mule Suttles. He’s Bill Terry plus about 3 more Bill Terry type seasons.

14. DICK REDDING, P. 183 MLE Neut_Fibonacci_Wins, and 114 MLE ERA+ in 3,556 innings. Was the 2nd best Negro League Pitcher in his era, behind only Williams.

15. BOB JOHNSON, LF. .651 OWP, 319 RCAP, 102 WARP1, 8,047 PAs. Def: VERY GOOD. Best of the outfield glut.

LEFT OFF THE BALLOT:

NEWBIES OF NOTE:
NONE
RETURNEES:

WES FARRELL, P. 31 POW, 88 WARP1, 200 RSAA, 159 Neut. Fibonacci Wins & 117 ERA+ in 2,623 innings. He could certainly hit, and had some really great years, but falls a little short in BOTH rate and duration pitching measures relative to other candidates.

JOE MEDWICK, LF. .638 OWP, 267 RCAP, 96 WARP1, 8,142 PAs. Def: VERY GOOD. Bob Johnson is better by almost every measuring stick.

BIZ MACKEY, C. . Estimated 98 OPS+ over 9,020 PA’s. Suffers in comparison with Josh Gibson, but a .300 hitting Gold Glove Catcher in his prime had to be a very valuable player. However, I think Trouppe was better for more seasons.

GEORGE SISLER, 1B. 27 POW, 93 WARP1, 205 RCAP & .611 OWP in 9,013 PAs. Def: FAIR. Only ranks about 5th at his position over 30 year period. Some really great seasons, but not enough of them.

GEORGE VAN HALTREN, CF. 12 POW, 118 WARP1, 167 RCAP & .620 OWP in 8,992 PAs. Def: FAIR. He wasn’t that far above position offensively, and wasn’t that good defensively.

COOL PAPA BELL, CF. MLE of .365 OBP and .382 SLG over 13,637 PAs. Even after giving him “Rickey Henderson” credit for baserunning and “Willie Mays” credit for fielding, he still falls short of ballot worthy. Greatness perception a ballpark illusion. Best comp is Harry Hooper with speed.

HUGH DUFFY, CF/LF. 5 POW, 95 WARP1, 154 RCAP & .623 OWP in 7,838 PAs. Def: AVERAGE. Just not in the elite OF class offensively, and fielding runs doesn’t even like his defense (-31).

CUPID CHILDS, 2B. 30 POW, 104 WARP1, 354 RCAP & .609 OWP in 6,762 PAs. Def: AVERAGE. Best 2nd baseman of the 1890’s, but only around 4th best in 30 year period.

PETE BROWNING, CF/LF. 28 POW, 95 WARP1, 478 RCAP & .745 OWP in 5,315 PAs. Def: POOR. Baseball’s premier hitter in the 1880’s. Much better hitter than any eligible outfielder, but only around 6th best CF in 30 year period.

WILLARD BROWN, RF. Estimated 131 OPS+ over 8,407 PA’s. Def: FAIR. Closest comps seem to be Jose Canseco and Rocky Colavito.

BOBBY DOERR, 2B. 40 POW, 107 WARP1, 234 RCAP & .539 OWP in 8,028 PAs. Def: EXCELLENT. Falls just behind Childs.

DOBE MOORE, SS. Wish we had good MLE’s for him. Hard to tell if he’s ballot-worthy or far from it. Could be close to Hugh Jennings comp. Based on reputation and known data, just not quite there.

JOSE MENDEZ, P. 154 MLE Neut Fibonacci Win Points. 114 MLE ERA+ over 3,001 MLE Innings. Similar career to Orel Hershiser perhaps. Had some really great years early in his career, then changed positions due to arm problems at age 27 and was never really a star player after that. Not sure he was really better than teammate Dolph Luque, so he falls short on the ballot.
   112. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: November 01, 2005 at 02:04 AM (#1713842)
Hey Devin - nice to see that someone else likes Rizzuto too, I'm thinking of writing some sort of position paper on why he should be moved up on everyone's ballot . . . I need more hours in my week though. Let me know if you want to collaborate . . .
   113. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 01, 2005 at 02:07 AM (#1713851)
The election is now over. Results will be posted shortly.
   114. OCF Posted: November 01, 2005 at 02:08 AM (#1713853)
Cogratulations, Roy Campanella and Monte Irvin!
   115. jimd Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:13 PM (#1714783)
Put me in the same age group as Brent, sunnyday2, OCF, etc.

1963 was my first season as a serious fan (10 years old). I had won a transistor radio in a Cub Scout raffle and discovered the joys of listening to the Red Sox (and Curt Gowdy).

Both parents were lapsed fans. Mom and her high school girl friends had gone to Fenway in the late '30s on Ladies Day (admission 10 cents) to moon over Foxx, Doerr, Williams, etc. Dad and his buddies would sneak into the BeeHive (back when the Braves were known as the Boston Bees). Neither had been to a game in years; there were more important things on which to spend money for a family with 3 boys, 10 and younger.

I started bugging my folks about going to a game, and my wish was granted in June, on my Mom's birthday. The Sox had occasional Family Day promotions (always bad teams like the Senators and A's) and we went numerous times over the next few years.

The 1963 World Series was my first on TV. (I've never attended a playoff game in person.) 10 year old boys are easily impressed, and Koufax made quite an impression.
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