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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Tuesday, December 27, 2005

1967 Results: The Hall of Merit is Just “Ducky” Over Medwick - Lemon Also Not Considered a “Lemon!”

In his fourteenth year of eligibility, Cardinal and Dodger slugger Joe Medwick claimed the top spot for immortality with 45% of all possible points.

In his fourth year on the ballot, Cleveland Indians’ ace pitcher Bob Lemon was inducted into the HoM with 42% of all possible points.

None of the newly eligible made any impact upon the electorate this “year.”

A record 81 names appeared on a ballot for this election.

Rounding out the top-ten were: Eppa Rixey, Biz Mackey, Clark Griffith, George Sisler, George Van Haltren, Cool Papa Bell, Jake Beckley (back in the top-ten after many an election on the outside looking in), and Cannonball Dick Redding (first time in the top-ten).

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1    3  Joe Medwick              483   34   4  4  2  2     2  1  3  1  4  2  1  2  5  1               
 2    4  Bob Lemon                448   30   3  3  1  5  2  2  1  1  2  2  2  3  2     1               
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3    6  Eppa Rixey               408   26   3  4  3  2     3  3     1  1  1  1  1  1  2               
 4    5  Biz Mackey               363   28   1        3  3  2  3  6  2  1  1     4  1  1               
 5    9  Clark Griffith           334   22   4  2  2     4     1     1  2  1        4  1               
 6    7  George Sisler            328   24   1     4  2  1  4  1  2  1  1  3     2  1  1               
 7    8  George Van Haltren       308   21   2  3  2        1  3     1  2  3  2  2                     
 8   10  Cool Papa Bell           284   20   1  3     1  2  1  1  3  2     1  2  2     1               
 9   11  Jake Beckley             278   19   3  2  2  1  1        1     2  1  2  1  2  1               
10   14  Cannonball Dick Redding  267   18   1  2  2  1  2  3     1     1  1  1  3                     
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   13  Dobie Moore              261   16   4  1  1  1  1  1  2  1  1     1        1  1               
12   16  Willard Brown            253   20      1  2  1  1  2  1  2  2  1  1  2  1  2  1               
13   12  Cupid Childs             246   18   1     2  1  1  2  2  2  2  2     1     2                  
14   17  Pete Browning            244   16   3  2  1  1  1           2  1  1  2        2               
15   18  José Méndez              235   16   1  2  2     2  1  1  1  1     1  2  1  1                  
16   15  Hugh Duffy               232   17         3  2  4        1  1  1  1  2  2                     
17   19  Bobby Doerr              225   17      2  1  2  2  1  1        1     1  4  2                  
18   23  Joe Sewell               212   15      3  1     2  2     1  1     1     2     2               
19   24  Ralph Kiner              211   17            1  4     1  2  3  2  1  1     1  1               
20   26  Charley Jones            194   14   1  2           3  1  1  1  1     1     2  1               
21   22  Joe Gordon               193   16   1     1  1        1  3  2  1  2        2  2               
22   21  Bucky Walters            187   14         2     1  3  2  2  1        1  1  1                  
23   20  Mickey Welch             177    9   3  2     1  2                 1                           
24   25  Alejandro Oms            175   11   1  1  2  2     1     1  1  1           1                  
25   27  Rube Waddell             174   14         1  1  2  1     1     3  2  2  1                     
26   28  Quincy Trouppe           151   13            2     1  2     2  1  2        1  2               
27   33  Roger Bresnahan          144   13   1  1              1     2     2  1        5               
28   29  Tommy Leach              139   11   1     1  1  1           2     1  1  1  1  1               
29   30  Burleigh Grimes          138   10   1        2  1        1  1  2     1  1                     
30   31  Larry Doyle              124    8      2  2        1           1  1           1               
31   32  Edd Roush                120    9      1           1  2  1  2        1  1                     
32   35  Gavy Cravath             107    7   1     1        1  1  1  1  1                              
33   36  Bob Elliott               99    9               2        1  2        1  1  1  1               
34   34  Wally Schang              98    8   1        1        1     1     1  1        2               
35   37  Bob Johnson               79    8                  2           1     2     2  1               
36   40  Charlie Keller            75    6            1  1  1  1                    1  1               
37   38  John McGraw               68    5         1     1     1        1     1                        
38   39  Tommy Bridges             67    6                     1  1     2     2                        
39   43  Ed Williamson             50    5                     1        1  1  1        1               
40   54  Frank Chance              46    5            1                       1  1     2               
41   44  Dizzy Trout               46    3            1     1  1                                       
42   41  Dizzy Dean                42    4                     1  1           1        1               
43T  47  Phil Rizzuto              41    4                           1  1  1     1                     
43T  50T Jimmy Ryan                41    4            1                       2        1               
45T  48  Bill Monroe               41    3      1                          1     1                     
45T  50T Ben Taylor                41    3   1                          1              1               
47T  53  Ernie Lombardi            39    3   1                                1        1               
47T  46  Vic Willis                39    3                  1  1           1                           
49   58  Sam Rice                  37    4                        1        1        2                  
50   52  Luke Easter               35    2         1  1                                                
51   45  Carl Mays                 34    3                  1              1  1                        
52   55T Pie Traynor               32    2         1           1                                       
53T  49  Dutch Leonard             30    3                           1     1     1                     
53T  42  Vern Stephens             30    3            1                             1  1               
55   55T Chuck Klein               26    2                     1     1                                 
56T  62  Fielder Jones             25    2         1                                1                  
56T  57  Addie Joss                25    2                     1        1                              
56T  63T Bobby Veach               25    2            1                          1                     
59   60  Leroy Matlock             23    1      1                                                      
60   67T Fred Dunlap               21    2                     1                    1                  
61   61  George J. Burns           19    2                              1        1                     
62  n/e  Dom DiMaggio              18    2                                 1     1                     
63   63T Ed Cicotte                17    1            1                                                
64   72  Bus Clarkson              16    2                                 1           1               
65   63T Johnny Pesky              16    1               1                                             
66  n/e  Tetelo Vargas             14    1                     1                                       
67T  67T Tommy Bond                13    1                        1                                    
67T  59  Bobo Newsom               13    1                        1                                    
67T  69  Joe Tinker                13    1                        1                                    
70  n/e  Lefty Gomez               12    2                                             2               
71   70T Artie Wilson              11    1                              1                              
72   70T Sam Leever                10    1                                 1                           
73T  74  Hack Wilson                8    1                                       1                     
73T  66  Dick Lundy                 8    1                                       1                     
73T  75T Virgil Trucks              8    1                                       1                     
76T n/e  Wally Berger               7    1                                          1                  
76T  75T Wilbur Cooper              7    1                                          1                  
76T n/e  Rabbit Maranville          7    1                                          1                  
76T  75T Al Rosen                   7    1                                          1                  
76T n/e  Mickey Vernon              7    1                                          1                  
81  n/e  Buzz Arlett                6    1                                             1               
Dropped Out: Murray Dickson(73).
Ballots Cast: 45

Ballots Cast: 45

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2005 at 01:51 AM | 66 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:04 AM (#1795066)
Congrats to Joe and Bob! Especially since more of my guys will be entering the top-ten now with them off the ballot. :-D

Rixey now appears to be almost certainly a HoMer in '68.
   2. karlmagnus Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:10 AM (#1795077)
Yay, Beckley back in the Top 10! Lemon, Rixey and Griffith suggest we'll be getting some more pitchers, too!
   3. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:16 AM (#1795087)
Yay, Beckley back in the Top 10!

He was also there in '66, karlmagnus. ;-)
   4. karlmagnus Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:20 AM (#1795093)
No he wasn't, not-Grandma, he was #11, according to the above listing. Don't think he's been in the top 10 since the early 50s, at least.
   5. OCF Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:22 AM (#1795098)
I've got one discrepancy, involving 14th place votes.

I have Bob Johnson with two 14th place votes and 79 points instead of 72.

The flip side is that I have no 14th place votes for Lemon, and 448 points instead of 455.

14th place votes for Johnson were cast by Patrick W (#59) and Devin McCullen (#84). Both of them gave higher votes to Lemon, and those higher votes seem to have been correctly tallied.

Otherwise, it checks.
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:25 AM (#1795104)
No he wasn't, not-Grandma, he was #11, according to the above listing. Don't think he's been in the top 10 since the early 50s, at least.

You're right. Sorry about that.
   7. OCF Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:34 AM (#1795123)
The 45 voters is a little on the low side. Regulars Ken Fischer and Tiboreau didn't vote in 1967; I'll assume that was holiday travel or other temporary disruption of the routine. In 1966, Tiboreau was a strong supporter of Lemon, while Ken Fischer supported Mackey. Neither one had Rixey in the top 15. Thus, their absence did not decide the election.

PhillyBooster and Brad G. both seem to have left us after 1964, and Chris J. ended a 5-year return to voting in 1963. Sporadic voter RMc appeared in 1966 but not 1967, but then he hasn't voted two years in a row in over 40 years.
   8. OCF Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:43 AM (#1795130)
The other way, John - no 14th place votes, 448 points for Lemon, two 14th place votes, 79 points for Johnson.
   9. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:43 AM (#1795134)
OCF:

Took care of that problem and updated the numbers at the top of the thread. Thanks for picking it up!
   10. OCF Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:52 AM (#1795145)
While we're getting that straightened out (and assuming I have the tally right), here are the consensus scores.

Best possible consensus score was +1. The most disagreed-about player was Rixie, followed by Griffith, followed by Moore. But really, we disagreed about everybody.

The average consensus score was -15.0, easily topping (bottoming?) the old record of -13.8 in 1961.

Individual scores:

DanG: -8
Adam Schafer: -8
Rusty Priske: -8
Daryn: -8
Howie Menckel: -8
Don F: -9
TomH: -9
jscmeagol: -9
...
favre: -15 (median)
...
yest: -18
...
karlmagnus: -18
...
Mark Donelson: -20
Eric C: -20
Jim Sp: -21
Kelly in SD: -21
KJOK: -22
Gadfly: -22
John Murphy: -22
Dolf Lucky: -25
   11. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2005 at 03:13 AM (#1795171)
John Murphy: -22

That will move up next election. Brown, Childs, and Browning are right outside the top-ten, while Moore may make my official ballot next "year."
   12. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: December 27, 2005 at 03:46 AM (#1795200)
I would have stuck this on my ballot, but it was too late to add everything up last night. I have a new all-time leader in my voting points, as Bill Monroe finally catches Lip Pike.

The top 11:
BILL MONROE 688
Lip Pike 671
TOMMY LEACH 631
CUPID CHILDS 514
Dickey Pearce 469
GEORGE VAN HALTREN 440
Charlie Bennett 398
Hughie Jennings 373
JOE SEWELL 368
CANNONBALL DICK REDDING 363
JIMMY RYAN 355 (Nowhere near my top 15 these days, though.)

The next highest who's currently on my ballot is Willard Brown at 143.

If nothing changes, it's possible Leach will catch Monroe before we're up to the present day, depeneding on how many bonus points he gets.
   13. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: December 27, 2005 at 03:53 AM (#1795207)
25 different players got at least 1 first place vote out of 45 total voters. Is that a record of some kind?
   14. KJOK Posted: December 27, 2005 at 07:27 AM (#1795374)
Frank Chance moves up 14 places! Now who was it who said we should just move everyone up 2 spaces this time? :>)
   15. yest Posted: December 27, 2005 at 07:44 AM (#1795386)
Things that surprised me abought this election I'm no longer on the least like the consesies list and Pie Traynor finaly got another vote

her's a list of eligible or elected HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoF man./exe.c with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler, Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O'Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , Clark Griffith , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin
1974
Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Addie Joss
1979
Hack Wilson
1980
Chuck Klein
1981
Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Travis Jackson
1983
George Kell
1984
Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr , Ernie Lombardi
1987
Ray Dandridge
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis
1996
Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Hilton Smith
   16. Kelly in SD Posted: December 27, 2005 at 09:53 AM (#1795458)
All Right. Not one of the returning top 10'ers will be on my 1968 ballot!! On my way to more negative consensus scores! Anyone else with no one from #3 - #10 on their 1967 ballot?

Though if you want to know who the Not-Quite-Ready-For-Prime-Time-Players are, the-almost,-but-not-quite-there players, just look to my ballot: numbers 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 20, 22, 23, 24, 26, and 28.

My consensus score could go up as Dobie Moore will be on the '68 ballot and Willard Brown is competing with Grimes and Burns for the 15th spot.

Hope everyone's Christmas/Boxing Day/Festivus/Kwanzaa was fantastic and your Hanukkah continues to be excellent.
   17. DavidFoss Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:30 PM (#1795519)
I'm holding off on celebrating some of the big moves of my guys this week (Griffith/Redding/CJones/Bresnahan) due to the fact that it might be partly due to the low turnout. Some of these blips down the ballot can be caused by the absense of several voters.
   18. Howie Menckel Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:34 PM (#1795521)
All-time 'vote points totals' leaders, through 1967. Active for 1968 vote in CAPS

Beckley climbed to No. 2; Duffy claims No. 3 next year.... Childs may pass Waddell for 8th next year.... Welch on the cusp of the top 10... Bresnahan grabs top-20 slot by a nose over twin Leach.... CJones makes the top 25 at last next year.

TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 17838.5
BECKLEY 17028
Jennings 16976
DUFFY 16755.5
GRIFFITH 16436
BROWNING 14694.5
Pike 13399
WADDELL 12595
CHILDS 12560
Thompson 12349

WELCH 12333
Bennett 11503
RYAN 10944
Caruthers 10704
RIXEY 10352
Beckwith 9920
H Stovey 9576
SISLER 9411
Start 8378.5
BRESNAHAN 8318

TLEACH 8285
McGinnity 8232
Pearce 8073
McVey 7985.5
Grant 7969.5

OTHER TOP 25 ACTIVE
(C Jones 7631, Sewell 7257, Redding 6054, Mendez 5811, Mackey 5685, Monroe 5618, Roush 5254, Doyle 5176, CP Bell 4854, Williamson 4638, Moore 4041, Grimes 3724)
ALMOST
(Schang 3575, McGraw 3519)
   19. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2005 at 02:41 PM (#1795524)
Things that surprised me abought this election I'm no longer on the least like the consesies list and Pie Traynor finaly got another vote

Traynor should get 6 more points from me in '68, yest.
   20. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: December 27, 2005 at 04:05 PM (#1795566)
Interesting. I was thinking of moving Dobie Moore up a little this 'year'. This would include swapping him with Dick Redding. So my question is, what is the idfference between a #5 and a #7 vote? Is it 6 points? Just a thought.
   21. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2005 at 04:12 PM (#1795571)
So my question is, what is the idfference between a #5 and a #7 vote? Is it 6 points?

The difference is 2 points, Mark.
   22. sunnyday2 Posted: December 27, 2005 at 09:07 PM (#1795999)
>'m holding off on celebrating some of the big moves of my guys this week (Griffith/Redding/CJones/Bresnahan) due to the fact that it might be partly due to the low turnout. Some of these blips down the ballot can be caused by the absense of several voters.

I can't answer that, at least not fully. But during the voting I tabulated "significant" movement. Meaning--a player who moved into the #2 slot and got the 4 point bonus, or a player that moved on to a ballot and got in effect a 6 point bonus, or a player who leapfrogged or was leapfrogged by 2 or more other players. See what I mean.

Every player this year was bound to get about 1.5 more points per ballot that they were on because Ted Williams and, in about half of the cases, Red Ruffing, were dropping off. That would all cancel out except for players making "significant" movement.

(Of course a little fewer than half of the voters include their previous year's rankings for each player, so my tabulation represented a sample, but a pretty good sample insofar as I was able to assume that at least one player on each ballot was getting a new bonus at #2 or #15. Of course, those who had voted for Ruffing last year also had a second "new" player on their ballot and I did not compare ballots to last year among those who don't put last year's ranking on their new ballot, so these totals overlook this source of additional votes. And for those voters who do not supply last year's ranking I might have missed some "significant" movement within the ballot.)

(For the record only 3 of the 20 or so ballots that do include last year's ranking had any "significant" movement within the ballot. Quincy Trouppe was the most active with -2, -4 and +5. The big gainers were Joe Medwick with a +5 and Ralph Kiner with a +2 and a +3. Kiner was the only player with 2 such moves, both positive. The big loser was Bucky Walters with a -2 and a -3, and he was the only player with 2 such moves, both negative. GVH, Mackey, Bell and W. Brown each had 2 such moves, one up and one down.)

So what I came up with was this:

1. Joe Medwick was the big gainer with 3 new bonuses (#2 rankings) and 4 times newly on the ballot (newly versus the previous year), plus a jump of +5 in the middle of another ballot. Total increase +41.

2. Roger Bresnahan--1 bonus, 5 new ballots = +34
3. Eppa Rixey--4 bonuses, 2 newly on ballot and +3 = +31
4. Bob Lemon--3 bonuses, 2 new ballots = +24
(tie.) George Van Haltren--1 new ballot, 4 new bonuses, +2 = +24
6. Ralph Kiner--3 new ballots, +5 = +23
7 (tie). Griffith, Beckley and Browning +20
10 (tie). Sewell and Doerr +18

These moved up due to positive action by 1967 voters, not strictly by low turnout among voters for those whom they leapfrogged.
   23. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2005 at 09:14 PM (#1796009)
Here are the unofficial 20-man results:


RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
1    3  Joe Medwick              491   38   4  4  2  2     2  1  3  1  4  2  1  2  5  1        2     2
 2    4  Bob Lemon                469   36   3  3  1  5  2  2  1  1  2  2  2  3  2     1  2  1  2     1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
3    6  Eppa Rixey               418   32   3  4  3  2     3  3     1  1  1  1  1  1  2           4  2
 4    5  Biz Mackey               369   30   1        3  3  2  3  6  2  1  1     4  1  1  1           1
 5    9  Clark Griffith           350   27   4  2  2     4     1     1  2  1        4  1  2     1  1  1
 6    7  George Sisler            349   31   1     4  2  1  4  1  2  1  1  3     2  1  1  2  1  1  1  2
 7    8  George Van Haltren       317   24   2  3  2        1  3     1  2  3  2  2           1  1  1   
 8   10  Cool Papa Bell           304   25   1  3     1  2  1  1  3  2     1  2  2     1  1  3  1      
 9   13  Dobie Moore              280   21   4  1  1  1  1  1  2  1  1     1        1  1  2  1  1  1   
10   11  Jake Beckley             280   20   3  2  2  1  1        1     2  1  2  1  2  1           1   
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   14  Cannonball Dick Redding  278   21   1  2  2  1  2  3     1     1  1  1  3        1  1     1   
12   12  Cupid Childs             262   23   1     2  1  1  2  2  2  2  2     1     2        2  2  1   
13   16  Willard Brown            261   22      1  2  1  1  2  1  2  2  1  1  2  1  2  1  1     1      
14   17  Pete Browning            257   21   3  2  1  1  1           2  1  1  2        2        3  2   
15   15  Hugh Duffy               254   22         3  2  4        1  1  1  1  2  2        4        1   
16   19  Bobby Doerr              249   23      2  1  2  2  1  1        1     1  4  2     4     1     1
17   18  José Méndez              248   19   1  2  2     2  1  1  1  1     1  2  1  1     1  2         
18   24  Ralph Kiner              238   24            1  4     1  2  3  2  1  1     1  1  3  2     2   
19   23  Joe Sewell               228   20      3  1     2  2     1  1     1     2     2  1  2     1  1
20   22  Joe Gordon               209   22   1     1  1        1  3  2  1  2        2  2  1     3     2
21   26  Charley Jones            196   15   1  2           3  1  1  1  1     1     2  1           1   
22   21  Bucky Walters            195   16         2     1  3  2  2  1        1  1  1        2         
23   27  Rube Waddell             186   17         1  1  2  1     1     3  2  2  1        1  1  1      
24   20  Mickey Welch             185   11   3  2     1  2                 1              1     1      
25   25  Alejandro Oms            184   15   1  1  2  2     1     1  1  1           1        1  1     2
26   33  Roger Bresnahan          160   17   1  1              1     2     2  1        5  2  1     1   
27   28  Quincy Trouppe           160   16            2     1  2     2  1  2        1  2     1  1  1   
28   30  Burleigh Grimes          153   14   1        2  1        1  1  2     1  1        2  1        1
29   29  Tommy Leach              144   14   1     1  1  1           2     1  1  1  1  1        1     2
30   32  Edd Roush                138   14      1           1  2  1  2        1  1        2  1  1     1
31   31  Larry Doyle              131   11      2  2        1           1  1           1  1           2
32   35  Gavy Cravath             115   11   1     1        1  1  1  1  1                    1     1  2
33   36  Bob Elliott              108   12               2        1  2        1  1  1  1     2        1
34   34  Wally Schang             100    9   1        1        1     1     1  1        2           1   
35   40  Charlie Keller            83    9            1  1  1  1                    1  1     1  1     1
36   37  Bob Johnson               82    9                  2           1     2     2  1        1      
37   38  John McGraw               68    5         1     1     1        1     1                        
38   39  Tommy Bridges             67    6                     1  1     2     2                        
39   41  Dizzy Dean                55    8                     1  1           1        1     2  1  1   
40   48  Bill Monroe               55    7      1                          1     1        1  1  1  1   
41   47  Phil Rizzuto              53    9                           1  1  1     1              3  1  1
42   50T Jimmy Ryan                53    8            1                       2        1  1     2     1
43   54  Frank Chance              52    7            1                       1  1     2  1           1
44   43  Ed Williamson             52    6                     1        1  1  1        1           1   
45   44  Dizzy Trout               48    4            1     1  1                                   1   
46   55T Pie Traynor               47    8         1           1                          1  1     2  2
47   53  Ernie Lombardi            45    5   1                                1        1     1     1   
48   46  Vic Willis                44    5                  1  1           1                    1  1   
49   50T Ben Taylor                43    4   1                          1              1           1   
50   45  Carl Mays                 41    6                  1              1  1              1     1  1
51   58  Sam Rice                  40    5                        1        1        2           1      
52   52  Luke Easter               37    3         1  1                                            1   
53   42  Vern Stephens             35    5            1                             1  1        1  1   
54   49  Dutch Leonard             35    4                           1     1     1        1            
55   55T Chuck Klein               30    4                     1     1                          1     1
56T  62  Fielder Jones             29    3         1                                1        1         
56T  57  Addie Joss                29    3                     1        1                    1         
58   63T Bobby Veach               25    2            1                          1                     
59   61  George J
Burns           23    3                              1        1           1         
60   60  Leroy Matlock             23    1      1                                                      
61   63T Ed Cicotte                21    3            1                                         1     1
62   67T Fred Dunlap               21    2                     1                    1                  
63   59  Bobo Newsom               20    3                        1                          1  1      
64   65  Dom DiMaggio              18    2                                 1     1                     
65   72  Bus Clarkson              16    2                                 1           1               
66   63T Johnny Pesky              16    1               1                                             
67   75T Al Rosen                  15    4                                          1     1        1  1
68  n
/e  Tetelo Vargas             14    1                     1                                       
69T  67T Tommy Bond                13    1                        1                                    
69T  69  Joe Tinker                13    1                        1                                    
71   72  Buzz Arlett               12    3                                             1     1     1   
72   75  Lefty Gomez               12    2                                             2               
73   75T Wilbur Cooper             11    3                                          1           1     1
74   77T Mickey Vernon             11    2                                          1        1         
75   70T Artie Wilson              11    1                              1                              
76   66  Dick Lundy                10    2                                       1                 1   
77   70T Sam Leever                10    1                                 1                           
78   85T Tony Mullane               9    4                                                   1     2  1
79   74  Hack Wilson                9    2                                       1                    1
80   81T Wally Berger               8    2                                          1                 1
81   75T Virgil Trucks              8    1                                       1                     
82   81T Rabbit Maranville          7    1                                          1                  
83  n
/e  Urban Shocker              6    2                                                   1     1   
84T  85T Dave Bancroft              5    1                                                1            
84T n
/e  Jack Quinn                 5    1                                                1            
84T  81T Johnny Sain                5    1                                                1            
87   87  Spotswood Poles            4    2                                                      1     1
88   88T Harry Hooper               4    1                                                   1         
89T  88T George Kell                3    1                                                      1      
89T n
/e  Jack Powell                3    1                                                      1      
91T  88T Chet Brewer                2    1                                                         1   
91T  92  Herman Long                2    1                                                         1   
91T n
/e  Dolph Luque                2    1                                                         1   
94T n
/e  Kiki Cuyler                1    1                                                            1
94T  80  Waite Hoyt                 1    1                                                            1
94T  88T Ed Konetchy                1    1                                                            1
94T n
/e  Tony Lazzeri               1    1                                                            1
94T n
/e  Heinie Manush              1    1                                                            1
Dropped Out
Murray Dickson(73).
Ballots Cast45 




   24. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2005 at 09:27 PM (#1796029)
I don't know what the problem is with the pre tag for post #23. It should be working.
   25. DavidFoss Posted: December 27, 2005 at 11:40 PM (#1796298)
View->Source shows no opening pre-tag... and the final pre-tag has its brackets' html-coded.
   26. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 28, 2005 at 12:06 AM (#1796323)
View->Source shows no opening pre-tag... and the final pre-tag has its brackets' html-coded.

I checked my comments via ExpressionEngine and both tags were there, so something weird is going on.
   27. Howie Menckel Posted: December 28, 2005 at 10:43 PM (#1797419)
thru the 2005 calendar year of voting, we have this......

HOM batters by percentage of games played at position (min. 10 pct to be listed)

C (8.03) - Cochrane 100, Dickey 100, Hartnett 98, Gibson 95, Campanella 95, Bennett 88, Santop 75, Ewing 47, Kelly 36, McVey 30, White 28, O'Rourke 11

1B (13.49) - Start 100, Gehrig 100, Mize 100, Terry 99, Brouthers 98, Leonard 95, Connor 88, Foxx 87, Anson 83, Greenberg 83, Suttles 70, Wilson 45, Stovey 37, Charleston 35, McVey 31, Jennings 26, Lloyd 25, Heilmann 22, Ewing 19, Kelley 16, Delahanty 15, Hines 12, Lajoie 12, Spalding 11, O'Rourke 10, Dihigo 10, JRobinson 10, Irvin 10

2B (10.15) - McPhee 100, Gehringer 99, E Collins 98, Herman 95, Lajoie 83, Frisch 77, Hornsby 72, Grant 70, Barnes 69, JRobinson 65, Richardson 43, Ward 26, HR Johnson 25, Groh 20, Hill 20, Pike 18, Dihigo 15, Wright 10, Wilson 10

3B (7.23) - Baker 100, J Collins 98, Hack 98, Groh 79, Sutton 69, White 51, Beckwith 50, Wilson 40, Davis 22, Frisch 20, Wallace 18, Dihigo 15, JRobinson 15, McVey 14, Richardson 13, Vaughan 11, Ott 10

SS (15.18) - Pearce 96, Boudreau 95, Reese 95, Glasscock 94, Appling 94, Cronin 92, Wells 90, HWright 89, Dahlen 88, Vaughan 85, Wallace 77, Jennings 70, HR Johnson 70, Lloyd 70, Wagner 68, Davis 58, Ward 44, Beckwith 35, Barnes 28, Grant 20, Sutton 19, Hornsby 16, Dihigo 15, Irvin 10

OF (37.84) - Carey 100, Clarke 100, Hamilton 100, Thompson 100, Wheat 100, Goslin 100, DiMaggio 100, Averill 100, Doby 100, Slaughter 100, TWilliams 100, Simmons 99, Burkett 99, Cobb 99, Flick 99, Gore 99, Sheckard 99, Speaker 99, Medwick 99, Jackson 98, Stearnes 98, Keeler 97, PWaner 97, Crawford 94, Ruth 92, Magee 91, Ott 90, Hines 82, Torriente 80, Kelley 79, Heilmann 77, Irvin 75, Pike 73, Delahanty 72, Hill 70, O'Rourke 69, Rogan 65, Stovey 63, Charleston 60, Caruthers 50, Kelly 47, Richardson 40, Suttles 30, Santop 20, Dihigo 20, McVey 18, Ewing 17, Greenberg 17, Davis 13, Spalding 13, Wagner 13, Ward 11, White 10, JRobinson 10

SP (31.23) - Alexander 100, Covaleski 100, Faber 100, Plank 100, Vance 100, Grove 100, Hubbell 100, Lyons 100, Newhouser 100, Feller 100, Ruffing 100, R Foster 99, Brown 99, Mathewson 99, Walsh 99, Williams 99, Young 99, B Foster 99, Paige 99, W Johnson 98, McGinnity 98, WFerrell 97, Lemon 97, Keefe 96, Nichols 96, Rusie 95, RBrown 95, Clarkson 94, Galvin 92, Radbourn 78, Spalding 72, Caruthers 47, Rogan 35, Dihigo 25, Ward 16

INF: 54.08
OF:: 37.84
P::: 31.23

1st base+outfield: 51.33
All other hitters: 40.59

Caveats: Totals treat all careers as equal. A little off on players like McVey and Sutton due to changing schedule length. Guesstimates on Negro Leaguers. Doesn't sufficiently represent pitching weight of players like Ruth or Caruthers.

P.S. I'd be open to 'improvements' on numbers for McVey/Sutton/Ruth/Caruthers types, and all Negro Leaguers.
   28. Howie Menckel Posted: December 28, 2005 at 10:44 PM (#1797424)
bah, that's "GWright" at SS, not HWright
   29. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: December 28, 2005 at 11:15 PM (#1797482)
Nothing earth shattering but we are a little low on catchers and 3B. While I think that we will elect more than the HOF, 3B does seem like a position that has generally been relatively low on talent throughout baseball history.

As far as catcher is concerned, it is a position that seems, at least to me, to have a very all or nothing quality to it. There have been very few (Bresnahan? maybe Schang?) borderline or backlog guys at the position from MLB. We either have easy guys like Hartnett and Cochrane or guys who were good but not real HOM material (schalk, lombardi. kling). It is possible that Trouppe and Mackey are only backlog guys because as NeL players there is a lot of guess work involved in creating their records. Anyone have any idea why catcher might be like this?
   30. yest Posted: December 28, 2005 at 11:27 PM (#1797503)
As far as catcher is concerned, it is a position that seems, at least to me, to have a very all or nothing quality to it. There have been very few (Bresnahan? maybe Schang?) borderline or backlog guys at the position from MLB. We either have easy guys like Hartnett and Cochrane or guys who were good but not real HOM material (schalk, lombardi. kling). It is possible that Trouppe and Mackey are only backlog guys because as NeL players there is a lot of guess work involved in creating their records. Anyone have any idea why catcher might be like this?

maybe it's because we're under rating a catchers defensive importance
   31. sunnyday2 Posted: December 29, 2005 at 12:07 AM (#1797587)
Who was it who said the catcher was indeed really really important? I mean, if he wasn't out there the ball would roll all the way to the backstop.

I think it's simple wear and tear.

3B is more of a conundrum.
   32. Howie Menckel Posted: December 29, 2005 at 12:10 AM (#1797596)
Had to be Casey Stengel, sunnyday.
   33. Howie Menckel Posted: December 30, 2005 at 10:30 PM (#1800416)
Here's a look at the HOM distribution starting a few years before WW II makes its impact, and then continuing thru the 1950s in the majors (* is parttime)

Trivia: Since Hubbell left in 1943, the NL has been without an HOM pitcher. In that span, the AL has had Ruffing, Feller, Newhouser, Lemon, and Paige. Vance is the only other NL HOMer pitcher since 1929. The AL can add Lyons, Grove, and Faber to the mix if they go back that far.

NL HOMers
1939 (10) - Hartnett, Waner, Ott, Hubbell, Vaughan, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick, Mize, Slaughter
1940 (11) - Hartnett*, Waner, Ott, Hubbell, Vaughan, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick, Mize, Slaughter, Reese
1941 (11) - Hartnett*, Waner, Ott, Hubbell, Vaughan, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick, Mize, Slaughter, Reese
1942 (10.7) - Waner, Ott, Hubbell, Vaughan, Foxx*, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick, Mize, Slaughter, Reese
1943 (7) - Waner, Ott, Hubbell*, Vaughan, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick
1944 (5) - Waner*, Ott, Foxx*, Hack, Medwick
1945 (4) - Ott, Foxx, Hack, Medwick
1946 (7) - Ott*, BiHerman, Hack, Medwick*, Mize, Slaughter, Reese
1947 (9) - Vaughan*, Greenberg, BiHerman*, Hack*, Medwick*, Mize, Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson
1948 (7) - Vaughan*, Medwick*, Mize, Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella
1949 (5.9) - Mize*, Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin*
1950 (5) - Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin
1951 (5) - Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin
1952 (5) - Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin*
1953 (5) - Slaughter, Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin
1954 (4) - Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin
1955 (4) - Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin*
1956 (4) - Reese, JRobinson, Campanella, Irvin
1957 (2) - Reese, Campanella
1958 (1) - Reese*

AL HOMers
1939 (15) - Simmons, Lyons, Grove, Foxx, Ruffing, Gehringer, Cronin, Dickey, Averill, Appling, Greenberg, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau*, TWilliams
1940 (16) - Simmons*, Lyons, Grove*, Foxx, Ruffing, Gehringer, Cronin, Dickey, Averill*, Appling, Greenberg, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser*
1941 (14) - Lyons, Grove*, Foxx, Ruffing, Gehringer, Cronin, Dickey, Appling, Greenberg, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser
1942 (10.7) - Lyons, Foxx*, Ruffing, Gehringer*, Cronin*, Dickey, Appling, DiMaggio, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser
1943 (6) - Simmons*, Cronin*, Dickey, Appling, Boudreau, Newhouser
1944 (3) - Cronin*, Boudreau, Newhouser
1945 (6) - Ruffing*, Appling*, Greenberg, Feller*, Boudreau, Newhouser
1946 (10) - Ruffing*, Dickey*, Appling, Greenberg, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser, Lemon*
1947 (8.5) - Ruffing*, Appling, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser, Lemon, Doby*
1948 (9) - Paige*, Appling, DiMaggio, Feller, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser, Lemon, Doby
1949 (9.1) - Paige*, Appling, DiMaggio*, Feller, Mize*, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser, Lemon, Doby
1950 (9) - Appling*, DiMaggio, Feller, Mize, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser, Lemon, Doby
1951 (9) - Paige*, DiMaggio, Feller, Mize, Boudreau, TWilliams, Newhouser*, Lemon, Doby
1952 (6) - Paige, Feller, Mize*, Newhouser, Lemon, Doby
1953 (6) - Paige, Feller, Mize*, TWilliams*, Lemon, Doby
1954 (6) - Feller*, TWilliams, Newhouser*, Lemon, Doby, Slaughter*
1955 (5) - Feller*, TWilliams, Lemon, Doby, Slaughter
1956 (5) - Feller*, TWilliams, Lemon, Doby, Slaughter
1957 (4) - TWilliams, Lemon*, Doby, Slaughter*
1958 (4) - TWilliams, Lemon*, Doby, Slaughter*
1959 (2.8) - TWilliams, Doby*, Slaughter**
1960 (1) - TWilliams

Negro League HOMers
1939 (9) - JWilson, Stearnes, Suttles, Wells, Gibson, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella*, Irvin
1940 (8) - JWilson, Stearnes, Suttles, Gibson*, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella*, Irvin
1941 (7) - JWilson, Suttles, Paige, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella*, Irvin
1942 (8) - JWilson, Wells, Paige, Gibson, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella, Doby
1943 (6) - JWilson, Gibson, Paige, RBrown, Leonard, Doby
1944 (5) - Gibson, Paige, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella
1945 (8) - JWilson*, Wells*, Gibson, Paige, RBrown, Leonard, Campanella, JRobinson
1946 (6) - Wells*, Gibson, Paige, Leonard, Campanella, Irvin, Doby*
1947 (4.5) - Wells*, Paige, Leonard, Irvin, Doby*
1948 (3) - Wells*, Leonard, Irvin
   34. OCF Posted: December 30, 2005 at 11:18 PM (#1800474)
Trivia: Since Hubbell left in 1943, the NL has been without an HOM pitcher.

Spahn had a "cup of coffee" in 1942 and began his career for real in 1946. Roberts started in 1948. There's still a little gap, but we will fill in the 50's. We just have to wait for those two to become eligible.
   35. Howie Menckel Posted: December 30, 2005 at 11:23 PM (#1800481)
HOM regular Ps, by year, through 1967 election. Must have pitched 1 IP per team's Gs, or in 35 G, and mainly this position, to be counted:
1868-80 - 0 to 3
1881-88 - 4 to 5
1889--- - 6
1890-91 - 8
1892-93 - 5 to 6
1894-00 - 3 to 4
1901-03 - 5 to 6
1904-16 - 7 to 8 (9 in 1915)
1917----- 6
1918-20 - 3 to 5
1921-24 - 6 to 8
1925-32 - 10 to 11
1933-34 - 8 to 9
1935-42 - 6 to 7
1943-50 - 3 (4 in 1947)
Van Haltren would be 1887-88; 1890
Welch would be 1880-91
Griffith would be 1891; 1894-1906
Waddell would be 1900-09
Mendez would be 1908-14, very roughly
Redding would be 1911-30, very roughly
Rixey would be 1912-17; 1919-33
Grimes would be 1917-31
Walters would be 1936-45


These are the two peak years (8 Ps are on both lists):
1926 (11) - WJohnson Williams Alexander Faber Covaleski Rogan Vance Lyons Grove Ruffing BFoster
1929 (11) - Williams Faber Rogan Vance Lyons Grove Ruffing BFoster Paige Hubbell Ferrell
   36. Paul Wendt Posted: December 31, 2005 at 12:11 AM (#1800544)
Caveats: Totals treat all careers as equal. A little off on players like McVey and Sutton due to changing schedule length. Guesstimates on Negro Leaguers. Doesn't sufficiently represent pitching weight of players like Ruth or Caruthers.

Howie,
How do you think Sutton's 1872 season should be counted? The club went out of business after playing 22 games and Sutton played only those 22 games. Teammate Scott Hastings completed the season in Baltimore, playing 22 + 13 = 35 games.
   37. jimd Posted: December 31, 2005 at 12:43 AM (#1800579)
BBWAA Voting for 1967
*Joe Medwick        212  72.60  
*Red Ruffing        212  72.60  
*Roy Campanella     204  69.86  
*Lou Boudreau       143  48.97  
*Ralph Kiner        124  42.47  
*Enos Slaughter     123  42.12  
*Al Lopez           114  39.04  
*Marty Marion        90  30.82  
*Johnny Mize         89  30.48  
*Pee Wee Reese       89  30.48  
*Johnny Vander Meer  87  29.79  
*Allie Reynolds      77  26.37  
*Phil Rizzuto        71  24.32  
*Joe Gordon          66  22.60  
*Bucky Walters       65  22.26  
*Hal Newhouser       62  21.23  
*Billy Herman        59  20.21  
*Mel Harder          52  17.81  
*Arky Vaughan        46  15.75  
*Ernie Lombardi      43  14.73  
*George Kell         40  13.70  
*Alvin Dark          38  13.01  
*Bobby Doerr         35  11.99  
*Bob Lemon           35  11.99  
*Hank Bauer          23  7.88  
*Bobo Newsom         19  6.51  
*Don Newcombe        18  6.16  
*Phil Cavarretta     15  5.14  
*Mickey Vernon       14  4.79  
*Larry Doby          10  3.42  
*Bobby Thomson       10  3.42  
Ted Kluszewski        9  3.08  
Gil McDougald         4  1.37  
Jackie Jensen         3  1.03  
Terry Moore           3  1.03  
Del Ennis             2  0.68  
Carl Furillo          2  0.68  
Jim Hegan             2  0.68  
Earl Torgeson         2  0.68  
Elmer Valo            2  0.68  
Clint Courtney        1  0.34  
Walt Dropo            1  0.34  
Ned Garver            1  0.34  
Grady Hatton          1  0.34  
Jim Hearn             1  0.34  
Billy Martin          1  0.34  
Andy Pafko            1  0.34  
Stan Hack             0  0.00  
"blank line"

There are 13 elected HOMers on this list (in bold), not to mention some additional candidates. (The '*' means the candidate qualified for the runoff election, held because noone was elected in the initial vote.)

Kind of interesting to compare their vote with ours.
   38. jimd Posted: December 31, 2005 at 12:45 AM (#1800581)
"pre" is not working.

Columns were name, votes, percent.
   39. jimd Posted: December 31, 2005 at 01:31 AM (#1800625)
1967 begins Frisch's "Reign of Error" on the Veteran's Committee.

1967 Lloyd Waner
1968 Kiki Cuyler
1970 Jesse Haines
1971 Chick Hafey
1972 Ross Youngs
1973 George Kelly
1974 Jim Bottomley
1976 Freddie Lindstrom

A sad time for the HOF.
   40. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 31, 2005 at 01:42 AM (#1800635)
Rizzuto did pretty well in that election. Finished ahead of 6 future Hall of Famers, behind 8 (not counting Al Lopez).
   41. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 31, 2005 at 01:44 AM (#1800638)
1/4 of my 33 'definite throw-away' Hall of Famers came in that 10-year stretch jim - wow.
   42. jimd Posted: December 31, 2005 at 02:23 AM (#1800672)
There are other weak selections from that period also (such as Hooper, Hoyt, Combs, Marquard). Those listed were just the ones with a personal tie to Frisch.
   43. jimd Posted: December 31, 2005 at 02:27 AM (#1800677)
Rizzuto did pretty well in that election.

Yeah. He got 50% more votes than Arky Vaughan. He must be great.

Then again, Marty Marion got almost twice as many as Arky. What were they thinking?
   44. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 31, 2005 at 02:53 AM (#1800702)
Well, Medwick and Ruffing beat Campanella, wow. How could that be possible?
   45. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 31, 2005 at 02:59 AM (#1800706)
BTW Jim, I like the posting of the actual BBWAA voting for the same year on the results page - let's keep that going from year to year . . .

Here would be a typical BBWAA 1-15, ballot using only players that were eligible for our election.

1. Joe Medwick
2. Ralph Kiner
3. Al Lopez
4. Marty Marion
5. Johnny Vander Meer
6. Allie Reynolds
7. Phil Rizzuto
8. Joe Gordon
9. Bucky Walters
10. Mel Harder (when did he fall off the map?)
11. Ernie Lombardi
12. George Kell
13. Alvin Dark
14. Bobby Doerr
15. Bob Lemon

And for the 16-20

16. Hank Bauer
17. Bobo Newsom
18. Don Newcombe
19. Phil Cavarretta
20. Mickey Vernon

Of course, they didn't have perpetual eligibility or Negro Leaguers to vote for. But it is interesting to look at.
   46. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 31, 2005 at 03:31 AM (#1800721)
*Al Lopez 114 39.04

Obviously (I hope!), he must have been getting votes for his managerial work. Torre could get away with this because he was a terrific player in his own right, but didn't anybody make a stink over Lopez's support at the time? Unless his supporters actually thought his career as a catcher was more impressive than Herman, Hack, Doby, Newhouser, etc.?
   47. sunnyday2 Posted: December 31, 2005 at 04:22 AM (#1800761)
In fairness Cuyler and Bottomley are clearly better than the rest of the FoFF, and not clearly worse than other HoFers who are not obvious mistakes. I mean, Heinie Manush may not have been a FoFF but that doesn't make him better than Cuyler.
   48. Howie Menckel Posted: December 31, 2005 at 05:12 AM (#1800790)
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/numbers/

That's for those who don't read the rest of Baseball Think Factory: It's a critique of Win Shares. I haven't had time yet to read it myself, alas.
   49. sunnyday2 Posted: December 31, 2005 at 05:59 PM (#1801096)
Clearly the biggest problem with BBWAA HoF voting, aside from the fact that many of the voters don't know their ### from a hole in the ground, is the whole notion of a yes-no vote. To me the evidence of a very poor voting mechanism is when you end up with a list like the one Joe posted in #45. I mean, how many of the actual BBWAA voters really thought that Al Lopez was better than Ernie Lombardi, or Alvin Dark better than Bobby Doerr, or Vander Meer or Allie Reynolds better than Bob Lemon, or Hank Bauer better than Mickey Vernon?

IOW the mechanism distorts real "public opinion" to the degree that you get very very small samples determining the pecking order. Obviously you can't actually elect with that tiny little rump caucus, but you can determine the pecking order. Someday the VC will be making choices based on who got 5 percent and who didn't. So candidates can be given a death sentence or given the chance to live to fight another day by these tiny minorities, and at least among the Golden Age generation where the HoF got down deep into the backlog those tiny minorities proved to be vastly more influential than they had any right to be.

Of course the FoFF minorities are a different story, a different problem. But again, I would be afriad that someday players who managed to squeeze out 5 percent a few times will be given too much consideration as opposed to some who fell off the ballot right away.
   50. Paul Wendt Posted: December 31, 2005 at 09:16 PM (#1801344)
For both John Murphy and jimd, the opening "pre" tag is not in the source and the closing "/pre" is in the source, in ampersand-semicolon format.
</pre>


Mel Harder aside, this HOF-HOM disparity is most interesting to me, because the players were about equally in about the same spotlight.
*Joe Medwick 212 72.60
*Enos Slaughter 123 42.12
*Marty Marion 90 30.82
*Johnny Mize 89 30.48
   51. Mark Donelson Posted: January 03, 2006 at 01:57 AM (#1803605)
Anyone else with no one from #3 - #10 on their 1967 ballot?

Me, for one; in fact, I had no one from 2 to 10. As with you, Moore (and perhaps Brown or Childs) will change that for 1968, most likely. And Sisler will also creep up to my 15th slot, probably.
   52. jimd Posted: January 03, 2006 at 08:26 PM (#1804602)
Well, Medwick and Ruffing beat Campanella, wow. How could that be possible?

Ruffing was in his last year of BBWAA eligibility; Medwick, next to last.

There was plenty of time to elect Campanella.

Since 1956, the BBWAA had only elected:
1962 Feller
1962 Robinson (4 votes to spare)
1964 Appling (runoff)
1966 Williams (20 of 302 voters did not vote for him)

When their BBWAA eligibility had expired, the VC had immediately inducted Carey (1960), and the three R's (1962): Rice, Roush, and Rixey. All of these had gotten over 50% but not made the 75% level.

Maybe the BBWAA didn't want a repeat with Ruffing and Medwick.
   53. Brent Posted: January 12, 2006 at 03:37 AM (#1817426)
I think we've learned as much as we're going to from the test ballots. Is it time to drop the test ballots and make a decision regarding the official balloting procedure?

When we started this, Joe said one of his criteria for possibly changing to a 20-person ballot would be consensus. If by consensus, he means a large supermajority, I don't think there is a consensus in favor of changing the official ballot. On the other hand, if it were put to a vote, there may or may not be a majority in favor. Next step?
   54. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: January 13, 2006 at 05:56 AM (#1819327)
I lean towards sticking with 15, but leaving the idea open for going to 20 if we see a need down the line. Any thoughts?
   55. sunnyday2 Posted: January 13, 2006 at 12:50 PM (#1819483)
I don't think the 20 man ballot affecting anything very much. I'd vote to "stay the course" with 15.
   56. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 13, 2006 at 02:18 PM (#1819517)
I don't think the 20 man ballot affecting anything very much. I'd vote to "stay the course" with 15.

I would also vote for 15, but mainly for tabulation purposes. I'm indifferent, otherwise.
   57. DanG Posted: January 13, 2006 at 02:39 PM (#1819527)
I'm not gonna campaign for it or anything, but I've long favored going to 20. More is better...
   58. Daryn Posted: January 13, 2006 at 02:46 PM (#1819533)
15.
   59. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: January 13, 2006 at 03:01 PM (#1819541)
15
   60. OCF Posted: January 13, 2006 at 07:20 PM (#1819822)
For me, what John Murphy said. (15, but I could live with it either way.)
   61. DavidFoss Posted: January 13, 2006 at 09:22 PM (#1819981)
Either is fine with me. I like the extra coverage that twenty provides, but it doesn't appear to matter in the final result.

I'll keep voting for 20+ becuase many of those guys will creep into the top 15 eventually as we burn through the backlog.
   62. EricC Posted: January 14, 2006 at 01:34 AM (#1820333)
15
   63. Sean Gilman Posted: January 17, 2006 at 11:10 AM (#1824837)
15
   64. karlmagnus Posted: January 17, 2006 at 02:13 PM (#1824862)
15
   65. Mark Donelson Posted: January 17, 2006 at 05:27 PM (#1825034)
15
   66. ronw Posted: January 17, 2006 at 10:46 PM (#1825706)
15

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