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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, April 17, 2006

1974 Results: The Hall of Merit Version of the “M & M Boys” Are This Year’s Standard Bearers!

In his first year of eligibility, New York Yankee star slugger Mickey Mantle became the 10th unanimous selection for the HoM, joining Cy Young, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Lefty Grove, Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, and Stan Musial among that prestigous group.

Another newbie, modern style third baseman Eddie Mathews, collected an “elect me” vote from 51 out of 52 voters as he picked up 95% of all possible points.

Rounding out the top-ten were: George Sisler, José Méndez (another big gain for him!), Willard Brown, Biz Mackey (slipping a little), Joe Gordon, Minnie Minoso, Cannonball Dick Redding, and Ralph Kiner (first time in the top-ten!.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Mickey Mantle           1248   52  52                                          
 2  n/e  Eddie Mathews           1190   52     51     1                                 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3    4  George Sisler            381   31      1  1  3  3  1  3  1  3  2  6  2  2  1  2
 4    8  José Méndez              360   27         3  3  3  4  3  2  1  1  2  1  1  1  2
 5    5  Willard Brown            357   29         4  2     4  1  3  2  2  3  3  2  1  2
 6    3  Biz Mackey               354   30         2  1  5     2  5  2  2  1  1  3  3  3
 7    7  Joe Gordon               353   30            4  7  1  1  1     2  3  2  3  1  5
 8    9  Minnie Minoso            329   29            3  1  1  2  4  3  4  2  2  3  1  3
 9    6  Cannonball Dick Redding  313   24         5  1  2  3  1  4     1     1  2  3  1
10   11  Ralph Kiner              296   25            4  1  2  3  3     2  2  2  2  1  3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   10  George Van Haltren       274   21         4  3  1  1  1  2     1  2  3  2     1
12   12  Dobie Moore              266   19         5     2  5  2  1              2     2
13   14  Hugh Duffy               254   18         3  3  1  3     1  3  2  1        1   
14   15  Joe Sewell               246   22         1  1  1  4  1  2  1  1  1  1  1  3  4
15   13  Jake Beckley             245   18         5  1  1  2  1     1  2  2  1  1  1   
16   17  Billy Pierce             230   20               2  3  4     2  1  2     1  4  1
17   16  Pete Browning            216   17         2  3  1  1     1     3  3  1     1  1
18   18  Cupid Childs             213   17         1  1  2  2  2  1  2  2        2  1  1
19   22  Rube Waddell             196   16            1  4  1  2     1  1  1  2  1  1  1
20   20  Nellie Fox               190   16         1        2  2  2  1  4  1  1     1  1
21   23  Quincy Trouppe           177   15               3     2  2  1  2  1  1  2     1
22   19  Bucky Walters            176   14            2  1     2  1  3  2     3         
23   21  Mickey Welch             155   11         3  1  1  1     2  1           1  1   
24   26  Alejandro Oms            146   13            2        3        2  1  2     2  1
25   25  Tommy Leach              144   13            3     1     1     1     2  2  2  1
26   27T Gavy Cravath             143   12            1  1  1  1  1  3     2           2
27   29  Edd Roush                140   11         1  2  1  1     1  1        1  2  1   
28   24  Charley Jones            137   10         1  2     1     3  2              1   
29   27T Roger Bresnahan          122   11         2        1        1  2        3  1  1
30   31  Bob Johnson              120   11         1     2  1              2  1     2  2
31   32  Bob Elliott              112   11                     2     2  1  2  1  1     2
32   30  Burleigh Grimes          103    9         1  1        1  1        1  1  1  2   
33   33  Larry Doyle               98    7         1  1  1  1  1              2         
34   34  Wally Schang              90    8         1              1  2        3  1      
35   35  Charlie Keller            68    5         1        1  2                    1   
36   37  Dizzy Dean                67    7                        1  1     2     1  2   
37   36  John McGraw               65    5            2              1     1  1         
38   48T Vern Stephens             53    5                  1  1           1     1     1
39   40  Pie Traynor               47    4         1                    2           1   
40   38  Addie Joss                43    4               1        1              1     1
41   54  Carl Mays                 42    4                           2        2         
42   39  Tommy Bridges             41    4                  1        1              2   
43   41  Fielder Jones             41    3               1        1  1                  
44   45T Tony Mullane              37    4                     1           1        1  1
45   48T Phil Rizzuto              36    3                     1     1     1            
46T  51  Ernie Lombardi            35    3         1                       1        1   
46T  47  Dizzy Trout               35    3                     1     1        1         
48   42  Jimmy Ryan                34    3                     1        1     1         
49T  52  Frank Chance              32    3               1                    1     1   
49T  55  Chuck Klein               32    3                           2           1      
49T  50  Bill Monroe               32    3               1                    1     1   
52   44  Vic Willis                31    3                     1           1        1   
53  n/e  Elston Howard             30    4                                    1  1  1  1
54   65  Lefty Gomez               29    3                        1           1     1   
55   43  Ben Taylor                29    2         1                    1               
56   45T Dutch Leonard             27    3                        1              1     1
57T  58T Gil Hodges                22    2                           1     1            
57T  56T Sam Rice                  22    2                              2               
59   53  Ed Williamson             21    2                           1        1         
60   56T Ed Cicotte                20    2                     1                       1
61T  60  Fred Dunlap               19    2                           1              1   
61T  61  Rabbit Maranville         19    2                                 1  1         
63   64  Luke Easter               16    1               1                              
64   63  Johnny Pesky              15    1                  1                           
65   66  Bobby Veach               13    1                        1                     
66   67  Tommy Bond                12    1                           1                  
67T  70T Bob Friend                11    1                              1               
67T  69  Sam Leever                11    1                              1               
67T  70T Red Schoendienst          11    1                              1               
70   70T Artie Wilson              10    1                                 1            
71   73  Bus Clarkson               9    1                                    1         
72T  74T Wilbur Cooper              8    1                                       1      
72T  58T Dom DiMaggio               8    1                                       1      
72T  74T Herman Long                8    1                                       1      
72T  76  Spot Poles                 8    1                                       1      
72T  62  Virgil Trucks              8    1                                       1      
77   77T Hack Wilson                7    1                                          1   
78T  77T Dave Bancroft              6    1                                             1
78T  68  Al Rosen                   6    1                                             1
78T  80  Curt Simmons               6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Wally Berger(77T).
Ballots Cast: 52

 

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 17, 2006 at 07:03 PM | 34 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 18, 2006 at 12:02 AM (#1969647)
Surprising, isn't it? :-)

Congrats to all-time greats Mickey and Eddie!

As for poor Biz...
   2. OCF Posted: April 18, 2006 at 12:14 AM (#1969695)
Average consensus score: +1.8. The three years of positive average score out of the last 15 - 1962, 1969, and 1974 - have all been +1.8 or +1.9. The individual spread around that is fairly small, with Chris Fluit being the closest to an outlier.

Chris Fluit: 9
Michael Bass: 7
Ardo: 6
Andrew Siegel: 6
SWW: 6
Chris Cobb: 5
Tom H: 5
Rusty Priske: 5
OCF: 5
...
DanG: 2
-- median here --
Sean Gilman: 2
...
Jim Sp: -2
Al Peterson: -2
Eric C: -4
Joe Dimino: -4
Dolf Lucky: -5
KJOK: -5
yest: -5 (so he broke the unanimity, but he at least had Mathews 4th)
karlmagnus: -6
   3. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 18, 2006 at 12:21 AM (#1969725)
HOF-not-HOM through 1974

1. Bancroft
Dave
2. Beckley
Jake
3  Bender
Chief
4  Bottomley
Jim
5  Bresnahan
Roger
6  Chance
Frank
7  Chesbro
Jack
8  Clemente
Roberto**
9  CombsEarle
10 Cuyler
Kiki
11 Dean
Dizzy
12 Duffy
Hugh
13 Evers
Johnny
14 Gomez
Lefty
15 Grimes
Burleigh
16 Hafey
Chick
17 Haines
Jesse
18 Hooper
Harry
19 Hoyt
Waite
20 Kelly
George
21 Manush
Heinie
22 Maranville
Rabbit
23 Marquard
Rube
24 McCarthy
Tommy
25 McGraw
John 
26 Pennock
Herb
27 Rice
Sam
28 Roush
Edd
29 Schalk
Ray
30 Sisler
George
31 Tinker
Joe
32 Traynor
Pie
33 Waddell
Rube
34 Waner
Lloyd
35 Welch
Mickey
36 Youngs
Ross

And HOM not-HOF

1  Ashburn
Richie
2  Averill
Earl
3  Barnes
Ross
4  Beckwith
John
5  Bennett
Charlie
6  Brown
Ray
7  Caruthers
Bob
8  Charleston
Oscar
9  Connor
Roger
10 Dahlen
Bill
11 Davis
George
12 Dihigo
Martin
13 Doby
Larry
14 Doerr
Bobby
15 Ferrell
Wes
16 Foster
Rube
17 Foster
Willie 
18 Glasscock
Jack
19 Gore
George
20 Grant
Frank
21 Groh
Heinie
22 Hack
Stan
23 Herman
Billy
24 Hill
Pete
25 Hines
Paul
26 Jackson
Joe*
27 JohnsonHome Run
28 Lemon
Bob
29 Lloyd
John Henry
30 Magee
Sherry
31 Mathews
Eddie
32 McPhee
Bid
33 McVey
Cal
34 Mize
Johnny
35 Newhouser
Hal
36 Pearce
Dickey
37 Pike
Lip
38 Richardson
Hardy
39 Reese
Pee Wee
40 Roberts
Robin
41 Rogan
Bullet Joe
42 Rusie
Amos
43 Santop
Louis
44 Sheckard
Jimmy
45 Slaughter
Enos
46 Snider
Duke
47 Start
Joe
48 Stearnes
Turkey
49 Stovey
Harry
50 Suttles
Mule
51 Sutton
Ezra
52 Torriente
Cristobal
53 Vaughan
Arky
54 Wells
Willie
55 White
Deacon
56 Williams
Smokey Joe
57 Wilson
Jud

*  not eligible for the HOF
** not eligible for the HoM until 1978. 
   4. jimd Posted: April 18, 2006 at 12:29 AM (#1969768)
HOF voting for 1974.
Ford goes in with the Mick.
Mathews gets little respect.

Name Votes PCT
Mickey Mantle 322 88.22
Whitey Ford 284 77.81

Robin Roberts 224 61.37
Ralph Kiner 215 58.90
Gil Hodges 198 54.25
Bob Lemon 190 52.05
Enos Slaughter 145 39.73
Pee Wee Reese 141 38.63
Eddie Mathews 118 32.33
Duke Snider 111 30.41
Phil Rizzuto 111 30.41
Red Schoendienst 110 30.14
Allie Reynolds 101 27.67
George Kell 94 25.75
Nellie Fox 79 21.64
Roger Maris 78 21.37
Hal Newhouser 73 20.00
Phil Cavarretta 61 16.71
Richie Ashburn 56 15.34
Alvin Dark 54 14.79
Johnny Sain 51 13.97
Don Larsen 29 7.95
Ted Kluszewski 28 7.67
Mickey Vernon 27 7.40
Elston Howard 19 5.21
Carl Erskine 11 3.01
Walker Cooper 9 2.47
Harvey Haddix 8 2.19
Lew Burdette 7 1.92
Don Newcombe 7 1.92
Bobby Thomson 6 1.64
Vern Law 5 1.37
Bobby Richardson 5 1.37
Dick Groat 4 1.10
Roy McMillan 4 1.10
Billy Pierce 4 1.10
Gil McDougald 3 0.82
Vic Raschi 3 0.82
Bobby Shantz 3 0.82
Curt Simmons 3 0.82
Bill Virdon 3 0.82
Smoky Burgess 2 0.55
Rocky Colavito 2 0.55
Vic Wertz 2 0.55
Larry Doby 0 0.00

Mize, Marion, Dom DiMaggio and Newsom were no longer eligible and became VC candidates.
   5. Howie Menckel Posted: April 18, 2006 at 12:44 AM (#1969843)
Congrats to GVH for being the 1st member of the 20,000-pt club. Welch moves up to 9th. Sisler to 12th. Mackey to 23rd. Redding hits the top 25 next year.


TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 20053.5
BECKLEY 18857
DUFFY 18340.5
Griffith 17924
Jennings 16976
BROWNING 16247.5
CHILDS 14158
WADDELL 13889
WELCH 13519
Pike 13399

Thompson 12349
SISLER 11715
Bennett 11503
RYAN 11179.5
Rixey 10826
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
TLEACH 9282
BRESNAHAN 9237

SEWELL 8878
CJONES 8715
MACKEY 8505
Start 8378.5
McGinnity 8232

OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Redding 8150, Mendez 7873, Roush 6210, Doyle 5946, Monroe 5864, Moore 5856, Williamson 4869, Cravath 4723, Grimes 4558, WBrown 4430, Schang 4235)

(Almost, McGraw 4045)

I'm due to update the Kiner and Pierce numbers, maybe even Trouppe or Walters...
   6. OCF Posted: April 18, 2006 at 12:52 AM (#1969878)
Mathews gets little respect. (32% of the vote.)

Well, what to you expect for a lifetime .271 hitter?

Hodges ahead of Mathews? Sheesh.

For that matter, Mantle elected easily, which is nice, but only 88% of the vote. He shouldn't be first-ballot unanimous because he wasn't as good as - as good as - ... Help me here, who exactly were they waiting for or comparing him to?
   7. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: April 18, 2006 at 01:17 AM (#1969998)
I wouldnt' be surprised if GVH vaults back over Kiner next year. It seems that he had the highest # of 3-4 votes, meaning he lost 7 elect me bonuses. So if those seven voters don't mes around with GVH this week, he may have the most to gain.
   8. Ardo Posted: April 18, 2006 at 02:21 AM (#1970193)
Elston Howard deserves more than 4 votes. Then again, avid ballot-watchers know that I say both Quincy Trouppe and Wally Schang deserve more votes.
   9. yest Posted: April 18, 2006 at 02:21 AM (#1970194)
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler, Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Hack Wilson
1980
Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Travis Jackson
1983
George Kell
1984
Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
   10. yest Posted: April 18, 2006 at 02:33 AM (#1970218)
Here's my crack at the best team never to get a vote(at least I think they didn't get any votes I'm sure I missed some players due to thinking they got a vote espeshly at RF and SS)
C Johnny Kling
1B Jim Bottomley
2B Del Pratt
SS Travis Jackson
3B George Kell
RF Carl Furillo
CF Loyd Waner
LF Heinie Manush
P Hilton Smith
   11. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: April 18, 2006 at 03:40 AM (#1970348)
1975 PRELIMINARY BALLOT

(For an explanation of my methodology for evaluating pitchers, take a look at my comments in the Drysdale thread.)


I try to approach this exercise as if I am picking a 25-man roster. What this means is that I have positional quotas: 5 OF, 3 CI, 3 MI, 2 C, 3 UT, 9 P. I am a peak/prime voter for hitters using Win Shares. For Negro Leaguers, I consider the posted stats and MLEs, as well as the subjective opinions of the players. Also, I give full credit to players who missed time because of World War II.

I am in the process of reevaluating pitchers using a measure that is a combination of marginal runs saved and runs saved above average. (EDIT: This is about finished; my system also takes into account pitcher's hitting and postseason performance.)

1975 HOM Ballot
1. Don Drysdale - Great power pitcher who gets a bad rap for his pennant race performance. Excellent hitter and pitched well in the World Series. 25th-ranked MLB pitcher of all-time, behind Smoltz and ahead of Plank.
2. Charlie Keller - With war credit, "King Kong" had six straight MVP-caliber seasons with two more All-Star level seasons to start his career. Ranks seventh all-time among major league left fielders to date, which puts him ahead of nine other HOMers at the position.
3. Minnie Minoso - Ranks this high because of greater confidence in his career record than the other Negro Leaguers.
4. Dobie Moore - Absolute monster at shortstop. Value comparable to Hughie Jennings, who I liked, but better.
5. Jose Mendez - Mendez and Redding are certifiable HOMers, though I like Mendez's peak a bit more.

6. Dick Redding - Gets bumped up a bit based on subjective opinion, but still a strong candidate.
7. Dizzy Dean - High peak with lots of innings, pitched well in the postseason, very good hitter. 49th all-time, behind Vance and ahead of Fingers.
8. Quincy Trouppe - Love, love, love the MLEs. A catcher who could absolutely rake.
9. Billy Pierce - Poor man's Whitey Ford. 56th all-time, behind Ferrell and ahead of Tiant.
10. Willard Brown - He gets bumped down to this spot because his lack of plate discipline makes projecting career value a bit uncertain.

11. Rube Waddell - A strikeout pitcher nonpareil. 60th all-time, the peak/prime meat between two slices of career bread, Lyons and John.
12. Nellie Fox - Very closely linked to Leach in terms of value. Both players are underrated by the electorate because they were not eye-popping in any one facet of the game. Edge goes to Fox because of his peak seasons.
13. Tommy Leach - Criminally underrated by the electorate. Seventh-greatest major league third baseman of all-time to date.
14. Tommy Bridges - Not a workhorse, but very effective. 63rd all-time, behind Saberhagen and ahead of the next guy.
15. Carl Mays - Hitting and postseason pitching worth about six ERA+ points. 64th all-time, ahead of Caruthers.

The Next Ten
16. Urban Shocker - Underrated; stays pegged here as a borderline ballot candidate. 66th all-time, behind Caruthers and ahead of Hunter.
17. Biz Mackey - As high as I can place him given his spotty hitting record. Still would be a good HOM selection, though.
18. Joe Gordon - Can't cram his way into the ballot sausagefest. He's absolutely a HOMer in my eyes.
19. Hugh Duffy - He's the type of player I love to root for: great all-around, no holes in any one facet of his game, kind of like Bobby Abreu.
20. Ralph Kiner - Two-dimensional player (power and walks) whose peak is somewhat overrated. You have to be historically great to crack the ballot with a ten-year career.

21. Bucky Walters - Good pitcher and hitter, gets dinged a little bit for World War II. 71st all-time between Finley and Stieb.
22. Virgil Trucks - Gets WWII credit from me. 73rd all-time, behind Stieb and ahead of Lee Smith.
23. Alejandro Oms - The last HOM-caliber player in my consideration set.
24. Ken Boyer - Nice peak/prime. Can't see him making my ballot, though. Very similar to Sisler in career value.
25. George Sisler - Peak is hugely overrated and didn't really do much with the stick compared to the other greats at the position. Only ranks this high because my team needs a first baseman. But if I think Sisler is one of the biggest HOM mistakes, we're probably doing pretty good. He wasn't peanuts (though my system has him just behind Albert Pujols.)

Other Top 10 Returnees:
George Van Haltren - In an OF backlog with Roush, Cravath, Berger and Veach.
   12. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: April 18, 2006 at 04:36 PM (#1971068)
Has Wally Berger gotten a vote? I would put him in CF over Waner as he has consistently been in my top 30 and Waner never reached my consideration set.
   13. rawagman Posted: April 18, 2006 at 05:30 PM (#1971152)
he has - you can see it from the list up top - he had one vote last time around.
He's actually at 17 on my ballot right now - some backlog clearance and he may see daylight from me
   14. jimd Posted: April 18, 2006 at 06:25 PM (#1971274)
C Johnny Kling
1B Jim Bottomley
2B Del Pratt
SS Travis Jackson
3B George Kell
RF Carl Furillo
CF Loyd Waner
LF Heinie Manush
P Hilton Smith


Pratt and Manush have received votes (though not many).

Pratt debuted in 29th with 6 votes (61 pts) in 1930.
I don't think he's received a vote since 1942.

Manush debuted in 52nd with 2 votes (16 pts) in 1945.
I don't think he's received a vote since 1951.
   15. yest Posted: April 18, 2006 at 06:59 PM (#1971361)
2B Buddy Myer
LF Ken Williams
SS Harvey Kuenn (if he counts at ss) instead of Jackson
   16. AJMcCringleberry Posted: April 18, 2006 at 11:38 PM (#1972157)
Has Wally Berger gotten a vote?

I had him 14 or 15 last year, Mantle and Mathews knocked him off this year. He'll be back on in '76.
   17. jimd Posted: April 19, 2006 at 12:47 AM (#1972511)
Sorry, Myer has gotten a few votes also. Ken Williams has not.
   18. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 19, 2006 at 01:06 AM (#1972621)
SS Harvey Kuenn (if he counts at ss) instead of Jackson

He did play the most games at that position, so that's reasonable, yest.
   19. yest Posted: April 24, 2006 at 11:57 AM (#1984973)
Fred Pfeffer and if not Eddie Stanky
   20. jimd Posted: April 24, 2006 at 08:03 PM (#1985806)
Fred Pfeffer and if not Eddie Stanky

No votes for either. Your choice.
   21. yest Posted: April 24, 2006 at 10:01 PM (#1986077)
final team (a much better team then I would have thaught)
C Johnny Kling
1B Jim Bottomley
2B Fred Pfeffer
SS Harvey Kuenn
3B George Kell
RF Carl Furillo
CF Loyd Waner
LF Ken Williams
P Hilton Smith
   22. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 24, 2006 at 10:28 PM (#1986129)
final team (a much better team then I would have thaught)
C Johnny Kling
1B Jim Bottomley
2B Fred Pfeffer
SS Harvey Kuenn
3B George Kell
RF Carl Furillo
CF Loyd Waner
LF Ken Williams
P Hilton Smith


Good enough to win a pennant.
   23. DL from MN Posted: April 26, 2006 at 04:36 PM (#1990250)
Not much pitching there.
   24. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 26, 2006 at 05:14 PM (#1990303)
Not much pitching there.

Well, you have a point there. :-)
   25. yest Posted: April 26, 2006 at 07:15 PM (#1990554)
to complete the staff (if eligable)
Charlie Buffinton
Babe Adams
Don Newcombe
   26. TomH Posted: April 26, 2006 at 08:02 PM (#1990751)
I'll probably get Newcombe on my ballot sometime in the next 25 'years'.
   27. DL from MN Posted: April 26, 2006 at 09:50 PM (#1991198)
Larry Jackson?
   28. TomH Posted: April 27, 2006 at 01:41 PM (#1992405)
from the "for what it's worth" dept:

I have (only) 8 HOM electees who would not make my top 10 on this year’s ballot.

Approximate spots they would be on:
E Averill, D Medwick, B Doerr all #12
P Galvin, B Caruthers #15
R Foster #20 R Faber #25
H Jennings about #50
   29. Foghorn Leghorn Posted: April 27, 2006 at 02:39 PM (#1992464)
Curiously, did anyone consider the use of PEDs in the Mantle vote?
   30. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 27, 2006 at 02:58 PM (#1992489)
Curiously, did anyone consider the use of PEDs in the Mantle vote?

If you're talking greenies, I don't believe anybody brought it up.

On a competitive level, was the Mick getting a leg up over his peers? IOW, if the majority of players from his generation were using amphetamines, how significant would be his benefit then?
   31. sunnyday2 Posted: April 27, 2006 at 03:22 PM (#1992516)
Did Mantle use greenies? Yuck.
   32. jimd Posted: April 27, 2006 at 05:48 PM (#1992694)
IOW, if the majority of players from his generation were using amphetamines,

Go back far enough, and this has to be at the pioneer stage.
The questions are: How far back is that? Who were the pioneers? (guinea pigs?)
   33. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 27, 2006 at 06:05 PM (#1992715)
Go back far enough, and this has to be at the pioneer stage.
The questions are: How far back is that? Who were the pioneers? (guinea pigs?)


That's the problem, Jim. I can't even give you a reasonable guess for any of your questions.
   34. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: April 27, 2006 at 06:24 PM (#1992743)
Thing is, we dont' know much more about Steroids either. While we do know a number of prominent players that have used them nad canguess with about 95% accuracy a few more, what we dont' know is if a number of average players were using. Guyslike Wally Joyner. If 60% of the league was using is it all that big of an advantage?

I had said perviously that I would hold off for a year any player that tested positive for steroids or has admitted to taking them. I have decided that the latter is a little harsh and while I may still do the former, I am rethinking it.

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