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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, May 01, 2006

1975 Results: Drysdale and Mackey are the Newest Hall of Merit Battery!

In his debut year, Dodger flamethrower Don Drysdale easily won the top spot for the Hall of Merit with 55% of all possible points.

In his 27th year of eligiblity, NeL catching legend Biz Mackey finally claimed the prize that has eluded him in the last few elections by obtaining 35% of all possible points. He beat NeL slugger Willard Brown by just 1 point, so “Esse Hombre” will have to wait until ‘76.

Mackey is now our 24rd Negro Leaguer to be elected.

Rounding out the top-ten were: George Sisler, Joe Gordon, José Méndez , Minnie Minoso, Cannonball Dick Redding, Dobie Moore, and Hugh Duffy.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Don Drysdale             659   42   7  3  5  4  4  2  3  2  2  1  1  1  2  2  3
 2    6  Biz Mackey               425   32   1  3  3  1  2  3  2  1  2  3  2  2  2  2  3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3    5  Willard Brown            424   31   2  3  1     3  3  1  4  2  5        3  3  1
 4    3  George Sisler            418   31   2  1  3  3  1  3  3  1     2  7  1     1  3
 5    7  Joe Gordon               413   29   1  2  5  3  1     2  2  3  2  4  3     1   
 6    4  José Méndez              413   26   2  4  1  6  1  1  4     3           3     1
 7    8  Minnie Minoso            378   32         2  1  3  2  4  1  4  3  2  4     5  1
 8    9  Cannonball Dick Redding  356   22   6  1     2  1  4  1     2  1     1  1  1  1
 9   12  Dobie Moore              337   21   4  1  3  5     2              1  1  3     1
10   13  Hugh Duffy               315   20   2  2  1  4  1  1  2  4           1  1  1   
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   10  Ralph Kiner              306   24      2  1  4  1  1  3  1     2  1     2  4  2
12   14  Joe Sewell               300   24      2  2  2  1     3  1  1  4  1     2  1  4
13   17  Pete Browning            272   18   3  3  1        1     1  3  1  1  1     1  2
14   11  George Van Haltren       271   18   1  4  1     1  1     3     1  3  2  1      
15   18  Cupid Childs             252   19   1     3     3  1  2  2        2  1  2     2
16   15  Jake Beckley             246   15   4     2     3        2  1  1     1  1      
17   19  Rube Waddell             244   17      2  5           1  1  2  2  1  1  2      
18   16  Billy Pierce             237   19   1  1           6     1  2     1     5  1  1
19  n/e  Ken Boyer                235   20   1        4  1  1     2  2        2     2  5
20   20  Nellie Fox               210   16   1     1  1  2  1  2  1  1  1  1  1  1  1  1
21   21  Quincy Trouppe           209   16         2  1  3  2  1        1  2  2  1  1   
22   23  Mickey Welch             187   11   3  1  1     1  1     2           1  1      
23   27  Edd Roush                186   13   2  1     2     1     1        3  1  1     1
24   22  Bucky Walters            176   15      1              3  3  2  1     1  1  2  1
25   25  Tommy Leach              174   13      3     1     1  1     1  1        2  2  1
26   28  Charley Jones            165   10   1  2     1     1  3  1              1      
27   29  Roger Bresnahan          157   12   1  1     1        1  2  1     1  2     1  1
28   24  Alejandro Oms            155   12      1        3  1        2  1  2     1     1
29   30  Bob Johnson              147   13      1  1     2           2        1     5  1
30   26  Gavy Cravath             139   11         1  1  1  1  1  1     3           1  1
31   32  Burleigh Grimes          133   10   1  1           2        1     2  2        1
32   31  Bob Elliott              131   12               2  1  1     1  1     2  1  3   
33   33  Larry Doyle              128    8   1     1  1  2  1           2               
34   35  Charlie Keller           119    8   1  1        2     1           2           1
35   34  Wally Schang              97    7   1              1  1  1     2     1         
36   36  Dizzy Dean                90    9               1     1     1  1     1  1  2  1
37   37  John McGraw               83    5      2              1     1  1               
38   42  Tommy Bridges             55    5               1  1                 1  1  1   
39   38  Vern Stephens             50    4            1     1           1           1   
40   40  Addie Joss                49    4         1        1              1           1
41   49T Bill Monroe               46    4         1                       1  2         
42   52  Vic Willis                45    4               1           1        1  1      
43   39  Pie Traynor               44    3      1                 1              1      
44   57T Sam Rice                  43    5                        1  1                 3
45   48  Jimmy Ryan                42    5                        1           1     2  1
46   41  Carl Mays                 41    4                              1  3            
47   59  Ed Williamson             37    4                     1        1              2
48   54  Lefty Gomez               35    3               1                 1  1         
49   45  Phil Rizzuto              34    3                  1              1  1         
50   55  Ben Taylor                31    2         1              1                     
51   53  Elston Howard             30    4                                    1  1  1  1
52   56  Dutch Leonard             30    3                        1           1  1      
53   43  Fielder Jones             30    2            1           1                     
54   49T Frank Chance              27    2         1                          1         
55   44  Tony Mullane              25    3                              1        1     1
56T  60  Ed Cicotte                24    2               1                       1      
56T  46T Ernie Lombardi            24    2                           2                  
58   57T Gil Hodges                23    2                        1        1            
59   61T Rabbit Maranville         21    2                           1        1         
60   61T Fred Dunlap               18    2                              1           1   
61   49T Chuck Klein               14    1                     1                        
62T  67T Sam Leever                13    1                        1                     
62T  67T Red Schoendienst          13    1                        1                     
64T  67T Bob Friend                12    1                           1                  
64T  46T Dizzy Trout               12    1                           1                  
64T  65  Bobby Veach               12    1                           1                  
67T  70  Artie Wilson              11    1                              1               
67T  72T Herman Long               11    1                              1               
69T  71  Bus Clarkson              10    1                                 1            
69T  72T Virgil Trucks             10    1                                 1            
71T  72T Wilbur Cooper              9    1                                    1         
71T  77  Hack Wilson                9    1                                    1         
73T  78T Dave Bancroft              8    1                                       1      
73T  72T Dom DiMaggio               8    1                                       1      
75   78T Curt Simmons               7    1                                          1   
Dropped Out: Tommy Bond(66), Luke Easter(63), Johnny Pesky(64), Spot Poles(72T), Al Rosen(78T).
Ballots Cast: 50

 

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 01, 2006 at 11:54 PM | 54 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 02, 2006 at 12:15 AM (#1999594)
Congratulations to Double D and Raleigh!

Looked like it was going to be Sisler for most of the election, then Mendez made a big move, only to be overtaken by Brown. You know the rest after that. :-)
   2. OCF Posted: May 02, 2006 at 12:34 AM (#1999667)
Voters missing this election: Dolf Lucky, Joe Dimino. Also, Gadfly last voted in 1972 and caspian1988 in 1971.

Average consensus score -13.2, third lowest on record.

Michael Bass: -5
Tiboreau: -7
Ardo: -7
Chris Fluit: -8
SWW: -9
Brent: -9
TomH: -9
Pedro Feliz Navidad: -9
Esteban Rivera: -9
...
OCF: -11
...
Chris Cobb: -12 (his newfound fondness for long-career glove men has its effect - what's he going to say about Aparicio?)
...
danb: -13
Adam Schafer: -13 (medians)
...
Kelly in SD: -17
DanG: -17
Rick A: -17
rawagman: -18
Daryn: -18
EricC: -20
yest: -22
Jim Sp: -22
KJOK: -22
karlmagnus: -25
   3. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 02, 2006 at 12:39 AM (#1999687)
HOF-not-HOM through 1975

1. Bancroft
Dave
2. Beckley
Jake
3  Bender
Chief
4  Bottomley
Jim
5  Bresnahan
Roger
6  Chance
Frank
7  Chesbro
Jack
8  Clemente
Roberto**
9  CombsEarle
10 Cuyler
Kiki
11 Dean
Dizzy
12 Duffy
Hugh
13 Evers
Johnny
14 Gomez
Lefty
15 Grimes
Burleigh
16 Hafey
Chick
17 Haines
Jesse
18 Hooper
Harry
19 Hoyt
Waite
20 Johnson
Judy
21 Kelly
George
22 Kiner
Ralph
23 Manush
Heinie
24 Maranville
Rabbit
25 Marquard
Rube
26 McCarthy
Tommy
27 McGraw
John 
28 Pennock
Herb
29 Rice
Sam
30 Roush
Edd
31 Schalk
Ray
32 Sisler
George
33 Tinker
Joe
34 Traynor
Pie
35 Waddell
Rube
36 Waner
Lloyd
37 Welch
Mickey
38 Youngs
Ross

And HOM not-HOF

1  Ashburn
Richie
2  Barnes
Ross
3  Beckwith
John
4  Bennett
Charlie
5  Brown
Ray
6  Caruthers
Bob
7  Charleston
Oscar
8  Connor
Roger
9  Dahlen
Bill
10 Davis
George
11 Dihigo
Martin
12 Doby
Larry
13 Doerr
Bobby
14 Drysdale
Don
15 Ferrell
Wes
16 Foster
Rube
17 Foster
Willie 
18 Glasscock
Jack
19 Gore
George
20 Grant
Frank
21 Groh
Heinie
22 Hack
Stan
23 Hill
Pete
24 Hines
Paul
25 Jackson
Joe*
26 JohnsonHome Run
27 Lemon
Bob
28 Lloyd
John Henry
29 Mackey
Biz
30 Magee
Sherry
31 Mathews
Eddie
32 McPhee
Bid
33 McVey
Cal
34 Mize
Johnny
35 Newhouser
Hal
36 Pearce
Dickey
37 Pike
Lip
38 Richardson
Hardy
39 Reese
Pee Wee
40 Roberts
Robin
41 Rogan
Bullet Joe
42 Rusie
Amos
43 Santop
Louis
44 Sheckard
Jimmy
45 Slaughter
Enos
46 Snider
Duke
47 Start
Joe
48 Stearnes
Turkey
49 Stovey
Harry
50 Suttles
Mule
51 Sutton
Ezra
52 Torriente
Cristobal
53 Vaughan
Arky
54 Wells
Willie
55 White
Deacon
56 Williams
Smokey Joe
57 Wilson
Jud

*  not eligible for the HOF
** not eligible for the HoM until 1978. 
   4. yest Posted: May 02, 2006 at 12:39 AM (#1999689)
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler, Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Hack Wilson
1980
Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Travis Jackson
1983
George Kell
1984
Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
   5. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 02, 2006 at 12:41 AM (#1999697)
Well, I'll have 3 out of 4 of the next HoM candidates for '76, so that should help my consensus score.
   6. jimd Posted: May 02, 2006 at 12:53 AM (#1999762)
BBWAA Voting for 1975

Name Votes PCT

Ralph Kiner 273 75.41

Robin Roberts 263 72.65
Bob Lemon 233 64.36
Gil Hodges 188 51.93
Enos Slaughter 177 48.90
Hal Newhouser 155 42.82
Pee Wee Reese 154 42.54
Eddie Mathews 148 40.88
Phil Cavarretta 129 35.64
Duke Snider 129 35.64
Johnny Sain 123 33.98
Phil Rizzuto 117 32.32
George Kell 114 31.49
Red Schoendienst 94 25.97
Richie Ashburn 76 20.99
Don Drysdale 76 20.99
Nellie Fox 76 20.99
Roger Maris 70 19.34
Alvin Dark 48 13.26
Vic Raschi 37 10.22
Ted Kluszewski 33 9.12
Elston Howard 23 6.35
Don Larsen 23 6.35
Mickey Vernon 22 6.08
Walker Cooper 13 3.59
Lew Burdette 11 3.04
Don Newcombe 11 3.04
Bobby Thomson 10 2.76
Ken Boyer 9 2.49
Harvey Haddix 8 2.21
Bill White 7 1.93
Vern Law 6 1.66
Vic Wertz 5 1.38
Dick Groat 4 1.10
Johnny Podres 3 0.83
Rocky Colavito 1 0.28
Bill Virdon 1 0.28
Larry Doby 0 0.00

Kiner gets elected in his last year of BBWAA eligibility.
Newhouser, Cavaretta, and Sain receive "last chance" bumps.
Reynolds was passed over to the VC after 1974.
   7. Chris Cobb Posted: May 02, 2006 at 12:57 AM (#1999784)
Chris Cobb: -12 (his newfound fondness for long-career glove men has its effect - what's he going to say about Aparicio?)

Well, at least my low-key campaign is having some effect :-)

As to Aparicio, I think I'm going to say that he had a long career, but he wasn't good enough with the glove: neither WARP nor WS sees him as being in Long's or Maranville's league with the leather, and his offensive advantage over Maranville is pretty slim, probably non-existent if you measured Maranville over a portion of his career equal to Aparicio's.
   8. Howie Menckel Posted: May 02, 2006 at 01:40 AM (#2000032)
I think Sisler would have been elected if Lucky and Dimino had voted, followed by Mendez and Gordon next, both ahead of Mackey and Brown - assuming similar voting to last year.
It was THAT close.

I'll have charts and such up tomorrow.
Good night...
   9. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 02, 2006 at 01:48 AM (#2000088)
I think Sisler would have been elected if Lucky and Dimino had voted,

Mark would have been the key, since Joe had Sisler in the thirties.
   10. Ardo Posted: May 02, 2006 at 03:33 AM (#2000398)
Wow - what a hair-splitting finish! Congratulations to the winners.

I noticed that both Drysdale and Mackey earned votes in every ballot position #1-15. This has happened before, but when and for whom? I don't remember.

In contrast, Billy Pierce's vote distribution looked like this:
1 0 1 0 0 0 6 0 1 2 0 1 0 5 1 1. Go figure.

Of course, I believe that Jose Mendez and Joe Gordon, my #1 and #2 this year, should be voted in ahead of Sisler and Brown in the 1976 election. <b></b>
   11. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: May 02, 2006 at 05:15 AM (#2000445)
Sisler lost by seven points and I he dropped from #12 to #16 on my ballot (the latter just off ballot of course) between 1974 and 1975. I guess I had something to do with that....

Also, after the big Keller push by James and I, I am surprised that Charlie eller only garnered 3 more votes and moved up only one measly spot. I had thought that many voters had reconsidered him. Oh well. I may have to go all karl on you guys to make him a serious candidate, don't know why any peak/prime voter wouldn't have him on their ballot at least.
   12. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: May 02, 2006 at 06:01 AM (#2000460)
Oh my God, I forgot to vote. Woke up late today and headed off to work and it completely slipped my mind.

Just curious, was my prelim used? If not I think it would have made a difference. Gordon would have won by 1 point. I would have had him 8th, and no one ahead of him on the ballot.
   13. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: May 02, 2006 at 06:08 AM (#2000467)
I see the prelim wasn't used. I'll repost what I put on the 1975 ballot thread:

I think I've got a re-worked prelim . . .

1. Beckley (3)
2. Cravath (4)
3. Easter (5)
4. Drysdale (n/e)
5. Pierce (6)
6. Kiner (7)
7. C.Jones (8)
8. Gordon (15)
9. Van Haltren (11)
10. Rizzuto (9)
11. Howard (12)
12. Fox (10)
13. Bancroft (-)
14. Trucks (13)
15. Leach (14)

16-20. Minoso, Schang, Bridges, Sewell, Boyer
21-25. Stephens, Leonard, W.Brown, Walters, B.Johnson
26-30. Moore, Monroe, Lombardi, Trout, Mackey
31-35. Taylor, Ryan, Keller, Bartell, Waddell

Dave Bancroft, Dick Bartell, Buddy Myer, Ed Cicotte, Dolf Luque return to the consideration set, which now numbers 81.

****************

I woke up late, and raced off to work.

I got stuck in an hour and fifteen minute traffic jam (two medivac helicoptors on I-70, literally didn't move for an hour and 15 minutes), so when I got there, I couldn't check my email, as the game had already started (for those of you that don't know, I do the mlb.com Gameday webcasts for Baltimore and Washington as a part-time job).

So I didn't get John's reminder, nor did I get a chance to then ask him to use my prelim.

Wow.
   14. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: May 02, 2006 at 06:11 AM (#2000468)
I'm really torn here - I'd love to have my vote counted, especially since it really would counted for once, but I understand that what's done is done.

That prelim ballot was posted last week, so there isn't any 'strategic' voting or anything, it's just a weird confluence of events.

Any strong feelings here either way? I understand rules are rules.
   15. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: May 02, 2006 at 06:19 AM (#2000471)
BTW, several of you have my cell phone number - in the future please don't hesitate to use it if I'm about to miss a ballot . . . thanks! :-)
   16. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: May 02, 2006 at 06:25 AM (#2000475)
BTW, I don't want that last comment to sound like I'm blaming anyone for my missing the ballot, in case it's taken the wrong way. It was 100% my fault, I take full responsibility (well, I'll share it with the car accident anyway) . . . just trying to plan ahead in case something similar happens in the future.
   17. Howie Menckel Posted: May 02, 2006 at 11:10 AM (#2000527)
What's done is done, as far as the vote goes.
Even with a prelim, we can't give anyone preferential treatment - player or voter, as it were.
And this comes from a guy who never once had Mackey in his top 15.

The families of Biz Mackey and Bob Boone (his closest comp?) would like to thank KJOK for a late 14th-place vote that carried him to the top because none of the other contenders got a vote at all.
   18. sunnyday2 Posted: May 02, 2006 at 11:19 AM (#2000528)
I had the other 4 non-winners--Sisler, Brown, Mendez, Gordon--on my ballot, not Mackey. But there is no precedent for bumping a prelim ballot on to the ballot thread without the voter requesting it.

Any two of the four could make it in '76 obviously depending on who votes and who doesn't.

I'm more excited about Dobie Moore being in the top 10.
   19. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 02, 2006 at 11:37 AM (#2000536)
So I didn't get John's reminder, nor did I get a chance to then ask him to use my prelim.

Did you get my IM, Joe?

But there is no precedent for bumping a prelim ballot on to the ballot thread without the voter requesting it.


That's why I didn't use it. Too bad, because I would have loved seeing Gordon go in with Drysdale. Looks like '76 will be his year (I hope).

BTW, several of you have my cell phone number - in the future please don't hesitate to use it if I'm about to miss a ballot . . . thanks! :-)

In the past, you usually posted your ballot at the last second. Didn't work out this time.
   20. Howie Menckel Posted: May 02, 2006 at 11:40 AM (#2000537)
Beckley hits the 19,000 pt mark.... Sisler's near-miss allows him to pass Thompson for 11th next year... Mackey departs the list at No. 22.. Redding finally bounces Iron Joe McGinnity out of the top 25.. Mendez will take out Joe Start next year.

TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 20324.5
BECKLEY 19103
DUFFY 18655.5
Griffith 17924
Jennings 16976
BROWNING 16519.5
CHILDS 14410
WADDELL 14133
WELCH 13706
Pike 13399

Thompson 12349
SISLER 12133
Bennett 11503
RYAN 11221.5
Rixey 10826
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
TLEACH 9456
BRESNAHAN 9394

SEWELL 9178
Mackey 8930
CJONES 8880
REDDING 8506
Start 8378.5

OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Mendez 8286, Roush 6396, Moore 6193, Doyle 6074, Monroe 5910, Williamson 4906, Cravath 4862, WBrown 4854, Grimes 4691, Schang 4332, McGraw 4128)

Anyoene have figures on Kiner, Pierce, Trouppe, Walters, and Bob Johnson?
   21. Rusty Priske Posted: May 02, 2006 at 12:54 PM (#2000574)
GVH slid to 14?

:(
   22. andrew siegel Posted: May 02, 2006 at 02:32 PM (#2000637)
So there are only four candidates for the all-time point champ as I see it: Van Haltren, Beckley, Duffy, and Browning. Van Haltren has to be the favorite given his lead and his recent slipage, but the others all have a chance.
   23. Daryn Posted: May 02, 2006 at 06:18 PM (#2000721)
So there are only four candidates for the all-time point champ as I see it: Van Haltren, Beckley, Duffy, and Browning. Van Haltren has to be the favorite given his lead and his recent slipage, but the others all have a chance.

I think Mickey Welch will move into first place in about 2050. He should be the leading active candidate in about 25 years and then will take about 50 years to catch GVH or Beckley.
   24. Paul Wendt Posted: May 02, 2006 at 06:54 PM (#2000802)
Any strong feelings here either way? I understand rules are rules.

BTW, several of you have my cell phone number - in the future please don't hesitate to use it if I'm about to miss a ballot . . . thanks! :-)


From the peanut gallery, I mean respected semi-outsider:
I agree strongly with Howie Menckel on the 1975 election but I think that special treatment by Secy Murphy using the cell phone is appropriate. I think it is reasonable that any of JoeD, JohnM and DanG phone each other as a reminder.
   25. Paul Wendt Posted: May 02, 2006 at 07:10 PM (#2000835)
Whew! Now, back to the usual subject of the results thread: if not for the Commissioner's crazy work schedule, six of the top seven incumbents would have played in the Negro Leagues.

jschmeagol:
I am surprised that Charlie Keller only garnered 3 more votes and moved up only one measly spot.

So am I. He has messed up the little group with Schang, Dean, and McGraw, just enough for a bridge game.

Ken Boyer joins the short list of recent major leaguers neither elected nor dismissed.

One quarter of the voters cast unique "number one" votes.
   26. TomH Posted: May 02, 2006 at 07:43 PM (#2000892)
Is this the first time a player was elected with only 1 first-place vote (Mackey)? If so, give Jeff M some sort of prize.

Did anyone have Drysdale/Mackey 1 and 2? Have we ever had an election where no voter had the two electees at the top of his ballot in order? Could easily happen in an upcoming elect-3 ballot I suppose.
   27. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 02, 2006 at 07:51 PM (#2000909)
I agree strongly with Howie Menckel on the 1975 election but I think that special treatment by Secy Murphy using the cell phone is appropriate. I think it is reasonable that any of JoeD, JohnM and DanG phone each other as a reminder.

I actually dont have Joe's number, though he may have given it to me last year at the SABR convention. I did IM him, but he obviously didn't see it. I always give him some type of reminder, since the Commish should always be involved in this electing jazz. :-)

Now that I think about it, I believe Joe did post it here the week he met Howie. Dont remember which thread, however.

If Joe e-mails it to me, he wont miss another election again.
   28. jimd Posted: May 02, 2006 at 07:55 PM (#2000919)
I think Mickey Welch will move into first place in about 2050.

Welch already owns the record for most votes-to-elect, cumulative.

Most Votes-to-elect (VTE), record progression:

White 1898 27
Wright 1900 27
1901 43
Radbourn 1904 44
1905 58
Spalding 1906 61
Sutton 1908 67
Start 1912 79
Bennett 1921 95
Pike 1939 103
1940 115
Jennings 1958 121
1959 122
1960 130
Welch 1965 131
1966 134
1967 139
1968 144
1970 147
1971 149
1972 153
1973 156
1975 160

Top 12:
160 WELCH
138 BECKLEY
130 Jennings
116 VAN HALTREN
115 Pike
95 Bennett
90 Caruthers
90 Griffith
83 BROWNING
79 Start
79 Thompson
78 Pearce

HOMers with least cumulative VTE:
6 Faber, Terry
7 Ashburn, Wynn
10 Ward, Rusie, Hill, Hack

Members of the one-and-only-one club:
1 Williamson, O'Neill, HWright, Bush, Bond, Cross, Hooper,
1 Dean, Elliott, Minoso, Easter, Boyer*, BJohnson*
* new
   29. jimd Posted: May 02, 2006 at 08:12 PM (#2000956)
Players elected with 0 #1 votes:

Ewing (Brouthers 39/42)
Clarke (Young 45/45)
Plank (Crawford 44/46)
Wheat (WJohnson 54/54)
Hornsby (Ruth 53/53)
Frisch (Gehrig 52/52)
Hartnett (Grove 54/54)
Cronin (Foxx 48/49)
Beckwith (DiMaggio 47/47)
Irvin (Campanella 46/69)
Ruffing (TWilliams 48/48)
Berra (Musial 48/48)
Griffith (Spahn 47/48)
Doerr (Roberts+Koufax 44/50)
Mathews (Mantle 52/52)

Players elected with 1 #1 vote:

Gore (White+Hines 24/29)
Hill (Jackson 17/49)
Speaker (Cobb 52/56)
Faber (-)
Lyons (Hubbell 39/51)
Ott (Gibson 49/50)
Mackey (Drysdale 7/50)

Faber is the only one to lead the point-count with only one #1.
   30. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: May 02, 2006 at 09:00 PM (#2001048)
"So I didn't get John's reminder, nor did I get a chance to then ask him to use my prelim.

Did you get my IM, Joe?"

Nope. I was gone, but left the computer running. Funny thing is that is wasn't there when I got home last night either. Girlfriend must have deleted it at some point, and never told me.

Email with the cell phone number is on the way . . . :-)
   31. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 02, 2006 at 09:19 PM (#2001093)
Nope. I was gone, but left the computer running. Funny thing is that is wasn't there when I got home last night either. Girlfriend must have deleted it at some point, and never told me.

I IMed you in the early afternoon. I even made a comment about your KDBL trade snafu from yesterday. ;-)

Email with the cell phone number is on the way . . . :-)

Great. That should solve that problem.
   32. DavidFoss Posted: May 02, 2006 at 09:22 PM (#2001103)
Great. That should solve that problem.

Voting earlier helps too. The ballots are open for more than seven days.
   33. CraigK Posted: May 02, 2006 at 09:26 PM (#2001113)
So, uh, are you guys ever going to elect Van Haltren, are are you just seeing how long you can keep him in ballot limbo?
   34. jimd Posted: May 02, 2006 at 09:55 PM (#2001154)
Hey, the BBWAA leave guys like Ruffing, Hodges, and Rice waiting for years.

We leave guys like Jennings, Griffith, and Van Haltren waiting for decades.
   35. Jeff M Posted: May 02, 2006 at 11:56 PM (#2001329)
Is this the first time a player was elected with only 1 first-place vote (Mackey)? If so, give Jeff M some sort of prize.

I finally won something? When I joined this project, Joe promised me it would make me rich. I didn't know it would take 77 years. I'm almost too old to enjoy it.
   36. TomH Posted: May 03, 2006 at 12:23 AM (#2001386)
"No Prize for you!" (.... Prize Nazi )
   37. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: May 03, 2006 at 12:36 AM (#2001426)
"Voting earlier helps too. The ballots are open for more than seven days."

True David. But I've gotten into kind of a routine with doing it Mondays. I meant to vote earlier last week (even mentioned it on the prelim), but there were a few last minute things that put that off and then before you knew it, I missed it.

C'est la vie, I just hope Gordon gets in here at some point, not because I support him, but it'd be awful to have a missed vote as the reason why he missed.
   38. Trevor P. Posted: May 03, 2006 at 12:41 AM (#2001443)
So, uh, are you guys ever going to elect Van Haltren, are are you just seeing how long you can keep him in ballot limbo?

I keep trying to, but I'm only one man.

Has there been a subtle shift towards peak-heavy candidates in the past few elections? It seems more than a handful of the candidates who've bypassed GVH are peakers: Sisler, Mendez, Gordon, Moore, Duffy, Kiner, Browning, and one could make an argument for Dick Redding as well. And Sewell's more prime than career.
   39. jimd Posted: May 03, 2006 at 02:14 AM (#2001640)
Close elections (24 pts or less):

1 1975 Mackey-WBrown
2 1916 Stovey-Kelley
4 1913 McPhee-McVey
7 1975 Mackey-Sisler *
8+ 1906 Spalding-Sutton
11 1972 Doerr-Mackey
12 1975 Mackey-Gordon *
12 1975 Mackey-Mendez *
13 1929 Thompson-Sheckard
13 1940 Pike-Sewell
13 1960 Jennings-Medwick
13 1961 Averill-Ruffing
14 1934 Speaker-ECollins
16 1916 Stovey-Flick *
21 1901 Wright-Glasscock
21 1961 Averill-Medwick *
24 1966 Ruffing-Medwick
24 1968 Ashburn-Mackey

* there is a closer entry for this election
   40. jimd Posted: May 03, 2006 at 02:34 AM (#2001670)
In most cases, the fact that these elections were close has proved to be unimportant.
The loser has been elected at some point in the future, usually the next backlog election or three.

1940 is different from the others; Sewell still waits.
1975 has a decent chance of that happening; there are 4 candidates that just missed.
   41. Chris Cobb Posted: May 03, 2006 at 02:43 AM (#2001677)
1975 has a decent chance of that happening; there are 4 candidates that just missed.

Well, probably only three more from the backlog will be elected before the next deluge of shoo-in candidates begins in 1980, so at least one candidate who was very close to being elected is likely to wait at least a decade more.
   42. Rick A. Posted: May 03, 2006 at 02:45 AM (#2001678)
Mendez 8286, Roush 6396, Moore 6193, Doyle 6074, Monroe 5910, Williamson 4906, Cravath 4862, WBrown 4854, Grimes 4691, Schang 4332, McGraw 4128)

Anyoene have figures on Kiner, Pierce, Trouppe, Walters, and Bob Johnson?


Howie,
Here's what I have.(active candidates between 4500 and 1950)
Schang.......4332
Gordon.......4247
McGraw.......4128
Walters......3561
Kiner........3392
McCormick....3148
Oms..........3062
Joss.........2939
Willis.......2755
Tiernan......2686
Chance.......2636
Trouppe......2331
F. Jones.....2130
Cicotte......2119
Johnson......1980

Also, I have
Duffy with 18755.5 (+100 from your list)
Ryan with 11258.5 (+37)
Rixey with 10789 (-37)
Mendez with 8186(-100)

Looks like one of us just entered the numbers in the wrong spot. I'll check my list and see if I messed up.
   43. Rick A. Posted: May 03, 2006 at 02:48 AM (#2001680)
Sorry, just realized you were asking about Pierce too.
He's way behind at 1261
   44. DanG Posted: May 03, 2006 at 04:32 PM (#2001927)
Ardo Posted:

I noticed that both Drysdale and Mackey earned votes in every ballot position #1-15. This has happened before, but when and for whom? I don't remember.

I used to look at stuff like this a lot more; GVH did it several times, IIRC. The last guy I see getting a vote in every slot is Koufax in 1972. Before him was Lemon in 1965, then Mackey in 1961. The last time two players did it was 1960, Medwick and Averill.
   45. DavidFoss Posted: May 03, 2006 at 06:10 PM (#2002022)
every ballot position #1-15

With the help of a half-vote, Al Spalding was the first to do it back in 1903. Sam Thompson followed with another half-vote aided 1905 ballot.

Sam Thompson was the first to do it with all full votes in 1918.

Unofficial Tally:

1903 - Spalding(.5)
1905 - SThompson(.5)
1918 - SThompson
1919 - McGinnity
1921 - BWallace
1926 - SThompson, Caruthers
1927 - PHill, VanHaltren
1928 - McGinnity, Caruthers
1930 - JRyan
1931 - VanHaltren
1938 - VanHaltren
1939 - Faber, Sewell, Childs
1942 - Leach
1956 - Beckwith
1958 - Hack
1960 - Medwick, Averill
1961 - Mackey
1965 - Lemon
1972 - Koufax
1975 - Drysdale, Mackey
   46. yest Posted: May 05, 2006 at 05:52 AM (#2004971)
I noticed that both Drysdale and Mackey earned votes in every ballot position #1-15. This has happened before, but when and for whom? I don't remember.

on a simaler note Mickey Welch got exactly 1 vote at every position beetween 1-10 in 1927
   47. yest Posted: May 07, 2006 at 06:06 PM (#2008716)
what's the record for most ballots cast?
   48. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 07, 2006 at 06:32 PM (#2008802)
what's the record for most ballots cast?

56 in 1934.
   49. Daryn Posted: May 12, 2006 at 04:20 PM (#2016609)
I think it is neat that it now looks like Joe Sewell will eventually get elected. His precipitous fall always perplexed me. And by the time he gets elected he should be on my ballot (he's 18th now).
   50. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 12, 2006 at 05:00 PM (#2016664)
I think it is neat that it now looks like Joe Sewell will eventually get elected.

You might be right, Daryn, though I wouldn't bet money on it just yet.
   51. Paul Wendt Posted: May 12, 2006 at 07:17 PM (#2016838)
Has there been a subtle shift towards peak-heavy candidates in the past few elections? It seems more than a handful of the candidates who've bypassed GVH are peakers: Sisler, Mendez, Gordon, Moore, Duffy, Kiner, Browning, and one could make an argument for Dick Redding as well. And Sewell's more prime than career.

I suspect that support for career candidates was relatively greater when Joe Dimino was very active in the discussion and was posting "Pennants Added" ratings. Pennants Added is fundamentally a season measure, like WARP and WS, but people focused more on career PA than they do on career versions of other player ratings, I think.
   52. sunnyday2 Posted: May 12, 2006 at 07:24 PM (#2016846)
Or maybe it's that we've cleared the decks of career/no peak candidates like Richie Ashburn, etc. etc.

And Sewell may be more prime than career but he is not a peaker.
   53. DavidFoss Posted: May 12, 2006 at 07:25 PM (#2016848)
It goes in cycles. There was a time when career guys like Slaughter, Wynn, Rixey and Ruffing were going in too. I remember a peak voter making a frownie smiley at the turn in the electorates favor at that time.
   54. TomH Posted: May 12, 2006 at 07:47 PM (#2016891)
At times we have a peakster (Jennings) or career man (Rixey) who get elected to the delight of many, but the horror of others. The ones who excel at neither, to me, seem to get elected as we drift toward the backlog and they pile up enough mid-range votes even though very few of us have the at the top (Carey?, Faber?, Doerr). These get seen as some of our weaker honorees ("who voted for Faber? Not me!"), but most of us at least had them on our radar screens.

If this thesis holds true, it bodes well for Sewell, who made 24 ballots last week, as well as guys like Bucky Walters (15 votes, but only 1 in the top 6), Ken Boyer, maybe even Bob Johnson. It would NOT be good for Dobie Moore and Beckley, if the people who are not voting for them now refuse to move them on to their ballots as we make our way through the backlog.

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