Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Tuesday, May 30, 2006

1977 Results: Though No Postseason For Them, the Hall of Merit Still Says Yes to Banks and Bunning!

In his first year of eligibility, “Mr. Cub” Ernie Banks was elected with an impressive 95% of all possible points to become a new member of the Hall of Merit.

In his also his first year on the ballot, Tiger and Phillie ace Jim Bunning became the 150th inductee of the HoM by attaining 38% of all possible points.

Poor George Sisler was the bridesmaid again by losing out to Bunning in the late innings. His day will come, but not today.

Rounding out the tp-ten were: José Méndez, Cannonball Dick Redding, Minnie MinosoJoe Sewell, Jake Beckley (nice move by him!), Hugh Duffy, and Dobie Moore.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Ernie Banks             1159   51  40  5  2     1     1     1                 1
 2  n/e  Jim Bunning              462   36   1  2  2  3  2  3  1  5  1  1  6  2  2  2  3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3    3  George Sisler            427   32   1  1  3  2  4  1  5     3  3  2     5  2   
 4    4  José Méndez              401   26   1  4  2  3  3  4     2  1  1  1  1  1  2   
 5    6  Cannonball Dick Redding  360   24      5  3     5     1  1     4  1  2        2
 6    5  Minnie Minoso            359   32      1  1  3     2  2  1  4  2  1  4  5  4  2
 7    7  Joe Sewell               341   25      2  4  1  1  4  2     2  1  2  2  2  1  1
 8   11  Jake Beckley             312   21   1  4  1  4  1     1     1  1  1  2  2  1  1
 9   10  Hugh Duffy               309   21   1  1  2  3  2  1  3  4        1  1  1  1   
10    9  Dobie Moore              308   23      1  4     3  3  3        2  1  2  1  2  1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11    8  Ralph Kiner              299   24         2  3  1  3  3  1  2     2  1  3  1  2
12   16  Cupid Childs             286   23      1  2  2  2  2  2     1     3  2  2  3  1
13   15  Billy Pierce             279   23      2     1     4  1  3  2  1  2  1  1  1  4
14   12  George Van Haltren       265   19      2  1     3     1  3  3  5     1         
15   14  Ken Boyer                263   22      1  1  2  1  3  1  1  2  1  1     2  3  3
16   17  Rube Waddell             252   19         3  4     1  1  1  2  1  3     2  1   
17   18  Nellie Fox               249   19      1     3  1  3  3  1  1        3     2  1
18   13  Pete Browning            248   18      3  3  1        1  1  2  1  1  1  1  1  2
19   19  Charley Jones            225   14   1  2  1  1  1  1  2  4           1         
20   20  Quincy Trouppe           209   16         1  3  2  1  2     1     3  1     2   
21   22  Edd Roush                202   16      2  1     2  1  1        4        1  1  3
22   21  Bucky Walters            195   18         2     1     1  1  4  1     1  2  2  3
23   23  Mickey Welch             188   11   1  3     1  1  1  1  1        2            
24   25  Roger Bresnahan          177   14   2        1        2  1  1  1  1  1  2  1  1
25   24  Tommy Leach              176   14      1  1  1  1  2     1  1     1  1  1  2  1
26   27  Gavy Cravath             171   13         1  1  2     1  2  2  1  2  1         
27   26  Bob Johnson              154   13         2     2        2        1  4  1     1
28   29  Bob Elliott              151   13               1  2  1  1  3  1     2     1  1
29   31  Charlie Keller           147   10   1  2     1        1     1  1        2  1   
30   28  Alejandro Oms            141   13      1     1  1        1  1  1  1        3  3
31   32  Larry Doyle              135    9      1     1  1  3     1  1        1         
32   30  Burleigh Grimes          125    9      1  1     2        1     2  1        1   
33   33  Wally Schang              94    7   1           1  1        1  1  1           1
34   34  Dizzy Dean                87    9                        3        1  2     2  1
35   35  John McGraw               82    5      1  1     1     1        1               
36   38  Tommy Bridges             68    7                        2        2     2     1
37   37  Vic Willis                60    6                  1        1     1     2  1   
38   36  Ben Taylor                58    5         1           1     1              2   
39   40  Jimmy Ryan                57    6            1           1              1  1  2
40   47  Carl Mays                 54    5                     1        2     2         
41   44  Bill Monroe               48    4         1                    1  1  1         
42   39  Sam Rice                  47    5                        2           1        2
43   42  Addie Joss                47    4         1              1        1           1
44   45  Pie Traynor               46    4            1        1              1        1
45   41  Vern Stephens             45    4            1           1              1  1   
46   46  Phil Rizzuto              44    4            1              1        1        1
47   43  Elston Howard             41    5                              1     1  1  1  1
48   56  Rabbit Maranville         37    3      1                                1     1
49   50T Ernie Lombardi            33    3                           1  1  1            
50   50T Ed Williamson             32    3                        1     1        1      
51   49  Dutch Leonard             30    3                  1                 1        1
52   55  Frank Chance              29    2         1                    1               
53   54  Dave Bancroft             27    3                              1        2      
54   48  Lefty Gomez               25    2                  1              1            
55   58  Ed Cicotte                22    2                  1                       1   
56   60  Fred Dunlap               19    2                              1        1      
57   52  Tony Mullane              17    2                              1              1
58   53  Fielder Jones             17    1            1                                 
59T  61  Luke Easter               16    1               1                              
59T  67T Bob Friend                16    1               1                              
61   64T Herman Long               15    1                  1                           
62T  63  Chuck Klein               14    1                     1                        
62T  64T Red Schoendienst          14    1                     1                        
62T  64T Dizzy Trout               14    1                     1                        
65T  67T Artie Wilson              12    1                           1                  
65T  67T Sam Leever                12    1                           1                  
65T  75  Curt Simmons              12    1                           1                  
68T  72T Buzz Arlett               11    1                              1               
68T  70T Bus Clarkson              11    1                              1               
68T  59  Virgil Trucks             11    1                              1               
71T  72T Dom DiMaggio              10    1                                 1            
71T  70T Bobby Veach               10    1                                 1            
73T  72T Wilbur Cooper              9    1                                    1         
73T  62  Hack Wilson                9    1                                    1         
73T  57  Gil Hodges                 9    1                                    1         
76  n/e  Larry Jackson              7    1                                          1   
Dropped Out: Dick Bartell(77T), Wally Berger(77T), George J. Burns(76), 
George Kell(77T).
Ballots Cast: 51
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 30, 2006 at 10:17 PM | 63 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 31, 2006 at 12:02 AM (#2044523)
Congratulations to Ernie and Jim!

Poor George...
   2. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 31, 2006 at 12:12 AM (#2044571)
HOF-not-HOM through 1977

1. Bancroft
Dave
2. Beckley
Jake
3  Bender
Chief
4  Bottomley
Jim
5  Bresnahan
Roger
6  Chance
Frank
7  Chesbro
Jack
8  Clemente
Roberto**
9  CombsEarle
10 Cuyler
Kiki
11 Dean
Dizzy
12 Duffy
Hugh
13 Evers
Johnny
14 Gomez
Lefty
15 Grimes
Burleigh
16 Hafey
Chick
17 Haines
Jesse
18 Hooper
Harry
19 Hoyt
Waite
20 Johnson
Judy
21 Kelly
George
22 Kiner
Ralph
23 Lindstrom
Freddie
24 Manush
Heinie
25 Maranville
Rabbit
26 Marquard
Rube
27 McCarthy
Tommy
28 McGraw
John 
29 Pennock
Herb
30 Rice
Sam
31 Roush
Edd
32 Schalk
Ray
33 Sewell
Joe
34 Sisler
George
35 Tinker
Joe
36 Traynor
Pie
37 Waddell
Rube
38 Waner
Lloyd
39 Welch
Mickey
40 Youngs
Ross

And HOM not-HOF

1  Ashburn
Richie
2  Barnes
Ross
3  Beckwith
John
4  Bennett
Charlie
5  Brown
Ray
6  Brown
Willard
7  Bunning
Jim
8  Caruthers
Bob
9  Dahlen
Bill
10 Davis
George
11 Doby
Larry
12 Doerr
Bobby
13 Drysdale
Don
14 Ferrell
Wes
15 Foster
Rube
16 Foster
Willie 
17 Glasscock
Jack
18 Gordon
Joe
19 Gore
George
20 Grant
Frank
21 Groh
Heinie
22 Hack
Stan
23 Hill
Pete
24 Hines
Paul
25 Jackson
Joe*
26 JohnsonHome Run
27 Magee
Sherry
28 Mathews
Eddie
29 McPhee
Bid
30 McVey
Cal
31 Mize
Johnny
32 Newhouser
Hal
33 Pearce
Dickey
34 Pike
Lip
35 Richardson
Hardy
36 Reese
Pee Wee
37 Rogan
Bullet Joe
38 Santop
Louis
39 Sheckard
Jimmy
40 Slaughter
Enos
41 Snider
Duke
42 Start
Joe
43 Stearnes
Turkey
44 Stovey
Harry
45 Suttles
Mule
46 Sutton
Ezra
47 Torriente
Cristobal
48 Vaughan
Arky
49 Wells
Willie
50 White
Deacon
51 Williams
Smokey Joe
52 Wilson
Jud

*  not eligible for the HOF
** not eligible for the HoM until 1978. 
   3. OCF Posted: May 31, 2006 at 12:14 AM (#2044579)
Through most of the middle of the voting, Sisler had a 70 or 80 point lead over Bunning. That changed rather quickly in the last dozen or so ballots.

Average consensus score: -7.3, which is nothing unusual. 51 voters - exactly the same list as in 1976.

Michael Bass: 0
Howie Menckel: 0
Chris Fluit: -1
Ardo: -2
OCF: -2 (now that you've elected Brown and Gordon, neither of whom I was voting for)
favre: -3
Esteban Rivera: -4
Andrew M: -4
Dvin McCullen: -4
Rusty Priske: -4
Max Parkinson: -4
Sean Gilman: -4
...
Sunnyday2: -7 (median)
...
Chris Cobb: -8 (Chris Cobb below average?)
...
John Murphy: -12
Patrick W: -12
EricC: -13
yest: -14
Kelly in SD: -14
Brent: -15
Jim Sp: -17
karlmagnus: -18
KJOK: -21
   4. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 31, 2006 at 12:27 AM (#2044623)
John Murphy: -12

Hmm..thought I would have doen better, though it's not like I'm that far off from the median.

Through most of the middle of the voting, Sisler had a 70 or 80 point lead over Bunning. That changed rather quickly in the last dozen or so ballots.

As OCF knows from previous campaigns, Sisler's support is strongest at the beginning, but tends to wane by the end of each election.
   5. Chris Fluit Posted: May 31, 2006 at 12:58 AM (#2044726)
I didn't have them that far apart on my ballot (Sisler was 10th and Bunning 12th) but I was really hoping that Sisler would be the one to get in. It's just nice to see one of the older backlog guys get elected.
   6. Ardo Posted: May 31, 2006 at 01:46 AM (#2044865)
Bunning wasn't a bad selection, but it's ridiculous that he was elected and that Pierce was 13th. I don't see much room between them.
   7. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: May 31, 2006 at 03:42 AM (#2045166)
Ardo - I'm Pierce's biggest fan (well, according to the voting, tied for his 4th biggest fan, but close enough) - and I had Bunning significantly ahead of Pierce.

I think Bunning was underrated by the group, despite his election. Bill James had him as the #30 pitcher of all-time.

My newly revised system saw him head and shoulders above the backlog, with Pierce as the only one close - he was close, but Bunning was clearly ahead. I haven't had a chance to run Drysdale through it yet, but I'm thinking Bunning will be very close, if not ahead of him, and Drysdale went in with much stronger support. Bunning was one helluva pitcher at his best, and had a long prime too.

I'm really surprised at how poorly Elston Howard is doing - the only thing I can think of is that no one buys his case for extra credit? James had him as the #15 catcher of all-time, you'd think the peak voters would be rallying around him and not Sisler.
   8. sunnyday2 Posted: May 31, 2006 at 03:59 AM (#2045180)
>It's just nice to see one of the older backlog guys get elected.

Those days are gone.

As to Bunning and Ellie Howard, Cooperstown has honored Bunning.
   9. SWW Posted: May 31, 2006 at 05:56 AM (#2045260)
This may not be the proper forum for this question, but since it relates to tabulating the results, I'll take a chance.

I've recently moved from PC to Mac. Still using MS Excel, but now that I'm Thinking Different, the macro buttons on the Official HOM Tally Sheet no longer work. I can move them around in Design Mode, but they don't actually respond when clicked. I've fiddled with the spreadsheet for days, trying to figure out the problem. The macros are enabled, the security locks are off. As far as I can tell, it should work. I've done everything but learn Visual Basic. So my question: has anyone else encountered this problem? What am I missing? Shall I be doomed to hand-tally once more?

Your assistance is, of course, appreciated.
   10. sunnyday2 Posted: May 31, 2006 at 10:16 AM (#2045292)
>I've recently moved from PC to Mac.

Congrats!
   11. Ardo Posted: May 31, 2006 at 11:59 AM (#2045302)
Joe, I agree that Elston Howard is under-rated. I need to re-evaluate him. There are two reasons, as I see it:

1) B/c he debuted for the Casey Stengel/Yogi Berra Yankees, there's a perception that he spent a lot of time at positions other than catcher - but look at the record; he played OF/1B about as much as Trouppe's record suggests and far less than Bresnahan actually did.

2) This electorate has consistently under-rated consecutive peaks like Howard's 1961-64.

IMO, Trouppe and especially Schang are better catching candidates.
   12. sunnyday2 Posted: May 31, 2006 at 12:18 PM (#2045307)
I had Trouppe as my top catcher but with MLE credit I think Ellie beats him. And I always had Bresnahan ahead of Mackey. I don't get Schang. Overall top catchers right now (including HoM/not PHoM):

1. Howard
2. Trouppe
3. Bresnahan
4. Mackey
5. Lombardi
6. Schang
7. Clapp
8. W. Cooper
9. Carroll
10. Schalk or Ferrell or...but who really cares as they are outside the top 100 anyway.
   13. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: May 31, 2006 at 01:25 PM (#2045331)
Switch Trouppe with Howard and Sunny list is a lot like mine (I have no one ranked after Schang, who isn't in my top 60). However, I had both on my ballot in 1977 so I guess I am not one of the guys that Joe is targeting.

Also,

How many peak guys are big fans of Sisler? I always figured it was prime guys and some of the guys who use more traditional stats (Karl, Yest, etc.) I would presume I am one of the bigger peak voters and I have had Sisler on my ballot (16th in 1977), but he isn't PHOM.
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: May 31, 2006 at 01:43 PM (#2045341)
all-time votes pts thru 1977

Browning passes Jennings for the 5th spot, after spending decades at No. 6.... Sisler again dodges election, reaches 13,000 pts, and sets himself up to take a top 10 spot away from Pike next year ;).... Sewell leaps past Leach, Bresnahan, and Stovey into the No. 18 slot... Negro Leagues hurlers Redding and Mendez both pass Mackey for the No. 23-24 slots.

TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 20887.5
BECKLEY 19730
DUFFY 19369.5
Griffith 17924
BROWNING 17044.5
Jennings 16976
CHILDS 14983
WADDELL 14646
WELCH 14089
Pike 13399

SISLER 13003
Thompson 12349
Bennett 11503
RYAN 11363.5
Rixey 10789
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9896
SEWELL 9861
TLEACH 9820
BRESNAHAN 9756

H Stovey 9576
CJONES 9316
REDDING 9250
MENDEZ 9008
Mackey 8930

OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Moore 6841, Roush 6806, Doyle 6349, Monroe 6007, Cravath 5198, Williamson 4972, Grimes 4962, Schang 4525, McGraw 4298, Walters 3971)

almost
(Kiner 4039, Oms 3343, McCormick 3148X, Joss 3037, Willis 2884, Minoso 2545)
   15. sunnyday2 Posted: May 31, 2006 at 01:45 PM (#2045342)
Me. I'm a peak/prime voter and I like Sisler. He's been PHoM almost since he became eligible.

His drop off is so dramatic it pretty much screams, look at me. But a lot of guys don't have 7 years that good and their decline is almost that bad. Sisler is not far behind Banks in my book. Banks' peak is not much longer than Sisler's though he was a SS. And his decline was barely any better. Sisler's career shape is odd, but if you put half his decline at the beginning of his career and half at the end (instead of all 7 at the end), without adding any more good years to it, it would look just like anybody else's, but with a higher peak.
   16. DL from MN Posted: May 31, 2006 at 03:32 PM (#2045440)
I place the winners into my all-time rankings after the election and Banks ended up right behind Appling and Dahlen. Seems to fit.
   17. Evan Posted: May 31, 2006 at 03:37 PM (#2045444)
SWW- Is design mode off? If you create a button of your own, does it work?

Feel free to e-mail me and I'll try to help you troubleshoot this.
   18. Swing on This Posted: May 31, 2006 at 04:30 PM (#2045495)
This election marked the first time both Beckley and Duffy placed in the Top 10 since 1932.

Is this a sign of an upcoming election for these men?

In that 1932 election, Jimmy Ryan placed 13th, Bill Monroe 17th, and Spotswood Poles 19th.

Have these men merely fallen out of favor with the electorate, or has their case for candidacy weakened in the last "45 years."
   19. Alex meets the threshold for granular review Posted: May 31, 2006 at 04:56 PM (#2045514)
JM - you have Drysdale on your "HOM not HOF" list.
   20. Swing on This Posted: May 31, 2006 at 05:02 PM (#2045520)
Drysdale wasn't elected to the HOF until 1984, where as, he was elected to the HOM in "1976."
   21. DanG Posted: May 31, 2006 at 05:09 PM (#2045528)
In that 1932 election, Jimmy Ryan placed 13th, Bill Monroe 17th, and Spotswood Poles 19th.

Have these men merely fallen out of favor with the electorate, or has their case for candidacy weakened in the last "45 years."


The expansion of the backlog since then makes it impossible, on a 15-man ballot, for most voters to express their opinion on such players. Meaning, their case may be just as strong with a particular voter, but where they may have ranked 12th among the backlog 45 "years" ago, they're now crowded down to 27th, off the ballot.
   22. Chris Fluit Posted: May 31, 2006 at 05:35 PM (#2045553)
Re: post #8: A guy can dream...
   23. Chris Cobb Posted: May 31, 2006 at 06:26 PM (#2045625)
>It's just nice to see one of the older backlog guys get elected.

Those days are gone.


They'll be back again in the mid-1980s.

And I think it's pretty likely we'll elect Sisler in 1979, unless the electorate is much more keen on Frank Howard than I anticipate.
   24. sunnyday2 Posted: May 31, 2006 at 06:32 PM (#2045631)
I am pretty sure there is a ballplayer that we have seen who will be preferred to Stumblebum George.
   25. Lemon Curry? Posted: May 31, 2006 at 07:02 PM (#2045675)
Sisler's support is strongest at the beginning, but tends to wane by the end of each election.

I guess you could say it mirrors his career.
   26. Lemon Curry? Posted: May 31, 2006 at 07:14 PM (#2045693)
unless the electorate is much more keen on Frank Howard than I anticipate.

If Howard is elected, won't that make him the first loving HoMer that's not in Cooperstown? Then again, I would think Ron Santo is a more realistic candidate for that honor.
   27. Lemon Curry? Posted: May 31, 2006 at 07:15 PM (#2045695)
I meant the first living HoMer that's not in Cooperstown. Damn keyboard ;-)
   28. jimd Posted: May 31, 2006 at 07:49 PM (#2045737)
BBWAA Voting for 1977

Name Votes PCT
Ernie Banks 321 83.81

Eddie Mathews 239 62.40
Gil Hodges 224 58.49
Enos Slaughter 222 57.96
Duke Snider 212 55.35
Don Drysdale 197 51.44
Pee Wee Reese 163 42.56
Nellie Fox 152 39.69
Jim Bunning 146 38.12
George Kell 141 36.81
Richie Ashburn 139 36.29
Red Schoendienst 105 27.42
Lew Burdette 85 22.19
Roger Maris 72 18.80
Alvin Dark 66 17.23
Harvey Kuenn 57 14.88
Ted Kluszewski 55 14.36
Mickey Vernon 52 13.58
Walker Cooper 45 11.75
Elston Howard 43 11.23
Don Newcombe 43 11.23
Don Larsen 39 10.18
Roy Face 33 8.62
Curt Flood 16 4.18
Ken Boyer 14 3.66
Bobby Thomson 10 2.61
Del Crandall 8 2.09
Harvey Haddix 7 1.83
Vern Law 5 1.31
Dick Groat 4 1.04
Vic Wertz 4 1.04
Bill White 4 1.04
Camilo Pascual 3 0.78
Johnny Podres 3 0.78
Larry Doby 0 0.00

Kell, Cooper, and Thomson were in their last year of eligibility.
Burdette quadrupled his support. Ashburn also had a big jump.
   29. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 31, 2006 at 08:03 PM (#2045753)
If Howard is elected, won't that make him the first living HoMer that's not in Cooperstown?

Correct, Dave.

I guess you could say it mirrors his career.

Good observation.
   30. OCF Posted: May 31, 2006 at 09:46 PM (#2045873)
Re: #28

I had Banks #1 on my ballot, as did a big majority of us - but I would never have even considered putting him ahead of Eddie Mathews. I guess there are BBWAA members who could never bring themselves to vote for a .270 hitter. And the pitchers on that ballot: Burdette, Larsen (Larsen?), Face, Haddix, Law - and no Billy Pierce?

(Well, Larsen was quite a good hitter - not that that makes up for a career 99 ERA+. Sorry, but I define "peak" as something that lasts longer than 9 innings. Or even 12 innings.)
   31. jimd Posted: May 31, 2006 at 10:15 PM (#2045913)
I had Banks #1 on my ballot, as did a big majority of us - but I would never have even considered putting him ahead of Eddie Mathews. I guess there are BBWAA members who could never bring themselves to vote for a .270 hitter.

It's the RBI's ;-)

EB .274 512 1636
EM .271 512 1453
   32. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: June 01, 2006 at 02:41 AM (#2046778)
Plus Ernie played SS for half of his career, though I doubt that he had more defensive value than Mathews. In fact over his career I owuld be surprised if he did. Also, Ernie was gregarious ('let's play two') and teh writers probably liked him a lot more.
   33. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 01, 2006 at 03:21 AM (#2046852)
One sign of hope looking at the BBWAA ballot . . .

Man that was a tough group to impress!

Ernie Banks, considered a God by the media and fans everywhere only getting 84% of the vote?

Eddie Matthews, Enos Slaughter, Duke Snider, Don Drysdale, Pee Wee Reese, Nellie Fox, Jim Bunning, Richie Ashburn and Larry Doby not close!

So that gives me hope that the current BBWAA which also seems to be really tight (although some slip through see Perez, Tony, comparable to Hodges, Gil), will actually losen up at some point and start electing people besides the 1st ballot guys like Boggs and Ripken.

The BBWAA ended up electing 3 of those above, and the Vets Committee did a good job in electing the other 6. At some point they are going to have to change the rules and get the Vets Committee to the point where it can start electing people again, seeing ballots like that above make it obvious.

History has a strange way of repeating itself . . .
   34. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 01, 2006 at 03:22 AM (#2046854)
I should add that while the Vets Committee elected 6 and the BBWAA 3, it easily could have been 5-4 BBWAA, as Fox and Bunning just missed in their last try and were ushered in by the Vets as soon as they were eligible.
   35. Paul Wendt Posted: June 01, 2006 at 04:35 AM (#2046885)
(Well, Larsen was quite a good hitter - not that that makes up for a career 99 ERA+. Sorry, but I define "peak" as something that lasts longer than 9 innings. Or even 12 innings.)

How about 12 innings or 18 innings?
Check out the ballot careers of Harvey Haddix and Johnny Vander Meer.

--
So that gives me hope that the current BBWAA which also seems to be really tight (although some slip through see Perez, Tony, comparable to Hodges, Gil), will actually losen up at some point and start electing people besides the 1st ballot guys like Boggs and Ripken.

Has the BBWAA stopped electing others? Perry, Jenkins, Niekro, Sutton all went in after a few years. Gossage will follow Sutter prety quickly. Rice and Dawson may follow Perez. But most sabermetric assessors are fonder of Simmons, Grich, Evans, and there ust be others, who don't make it to first base --killed on the first ballot by garnering less than 5% support.

The BBWAA ended up electing 3 of those above, and the Vets Committee did a good job in electing the other 6. At some point they are going to have to change the rules and get the Vets Committee to the point where it can start electing people again, seeing ballots like that above make it obvious.

Maybe, maybe not. Not if/while the HOF considers living Hall of Famers its most important constituency. That may continue until the living Hall of Famers die off --presuming a low election rate for a decade or three.

What I see in your future, JoeD, is a few more decades of hating that you care.
   36. yest Posted: June 01, 2006 at 01:40 PM (#2047005)
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler, Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Hack Wilson
1980
Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Travis Jackson
1983
George Kell
1984
Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
   37. DanG Posted: June 01, 2006 at 03:43 PM (#2047117)
--killed on the first ballot by garnering less than 5% support.

Well, not all of these were killed on the first ballot. But here is a list of guys not eligible for the 2005 VC Election or the 2007 BBWAA election:

23 Recent Victims of the 5% Rule
Buddy Bell
Cesar Cedeno
Ron Cey
Jack Clark
Will Clark
Jose Cruz
Darrell Evans
Dwight Evans
Bobby Grich
Ron Guidry
Keith Hernandez
Fred Lynn
Graig Nettles
Al Oliver
Lance Parrish
Darrell Porter
Dan Quisenberry
Willie Randolph
Ted Simmons
Ken Singleton
Rusty Staub
Dave Stieb
Lou Whitaker
   38. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 01, 2006 at 04:07 PM (#2047143)
"What I see in your future, JoeD, is a few more decades of hating that you care."

You would make a good shrink Paul . . . you've got me down pat.
   39. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 01, 2006 at 05:57 PM (#2047222)
Dan:

Boy, is that list criminal.
   40. sunnyday2 Posted: June 01, 2006 at 06:16 PM (#2047239)
Yeah, it's one thing to not elect some of these guys, but to single them out as unworthy even of consideration is indeed criminal. Some system.
   41. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: June 01, 2006 at 08:38 PM (#2047397)
I think Paul hit the nail on the head by saying that the problem with the VC is that the HOf sees its most important constiuency as living HOFers. Which is, of course, ridiculous. Living HOFers should be honored but the fans are obviously the HOF top constituency. Without fans the HOF goes belly-up. How can they no realize this?
   42. rawagman Posted: June 02, 2006 at 07:44 AM (#2048120)
Will Clark was robbed.
   43. semajllibfonaf Posted: June 02, 2006 at 07:44 AM (#2048121)
???May I thank the various contributors to this thread (and previous ones like it). It is VERY pleasant to read reasonable people discussing this sort of list w/o the b.s. promotion of favorites insults and left-handed congrats that make the more typical discussion so very unpleasant.
I've given up on HOF discussions and articles, approaching those done by writers I enjoy with the expectation of being, at best, disappointed.

This is the only discussion site on baseball that doesn't weaken my faith in my fellow human-who-are-baseball-fans.
   44. rawagman Posted: June 02, 2006 at 07:48 AM (#2048122)
how about joining, semajllibfonaf?
   45. DanG Posted: June 02, 2006 at 12:53 PM (#2048162)
Dan:

Boy, is that list criminal.


Took the words right out of my mouth...or right out of The Hall of Corrections.
My latest fun-time project at Baseball Fever.

http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=44353
   46. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: June 02, 2006 at 02:43 PM (#2048236)
Without fans the HOF goes belly-up. How can they no realize this?
This is the same thing we could ask about religions, and baseball certainly has many things in common with religious thinking.

We could imagine that Cooperstown is Vatican City and the Hall is St. Peter's. The members of the Hall of Fame are the patron saints of baseball, intermediaries bewteen lowly, frightened, anxious, uneducated peasant fans and a remote and difficult-to-comprehend baseball God. This God makes his presence known to us by the fuzzy feeling we get when we hear the words "play ball," the ecstasies we go into when our team wins, and the special something that makes certain hitters so clutch.

The "book" is the bible of this Coopic Church. Small ball is god-like, take-and-rake is heterodoxy; questioning the wisdom of the saints borders on blasphemous. Don't bunt to break up a perfect game, you'll go to h*ll.

Bill James is the apostate; Moneyball is apochrypha. The Saints remind us always that when they roamed the field, the game was more perfect, and it was closer to the word; that we have decended into decadance and sloth by waiting around for homers.

Managers are the priests of this religion of baseball, for they hold the values and tell the scribes what lessons to deliver to the flocks. Their sermons are given at the 30 megachurches of the baseball religion as well as in smaller outposts throught the land.

But the people, the fans, we are just the lowest of the low. The religion of Cooperstown takes our tithings and offers us mystery in return, but it ultimately does little to change and meet the needs of its parishoners; it hangs onto dogma after it's no longer terribly useful, and it doesn't typically acknowledge or help us grapple with the problems of the distant or recent past, nor for that matter with the complex present.

Or perhaps this extended metaphor is itself blasphemous, and I should just shut up now.
   47. DL from MN Posted: June 02, 2006 at 03:43 PM (#2048292)
You left out the virtuous scrappy infielder who is rewarded for his work ethic and sportsmanship. Also, everyone is focused on the pitcher on the pulpit.
   48. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 02, 2006 at 05:34 PM (#2048400)
That was great Dr. C!
   49. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 02, 2006 at 06:03 PM (#2048424)
how about joining, semajllibfonaf?

I'll second that. Sounds like he has the right attitude for this group.
   50. sunnyday2 Posted: June 02, 2006 at 07:54 PM (#2048519)
>The members of the Hall of Fame are the patron saints of baseball,

No, they're the Cardinals.
   51. sunnyday2 Posted: June 02, 2006 at 07:56 PM (#2048521)
And the homily, yes, blasphemy, absolutely.

Signed (Cardinal Joe Morgan)
   52. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 07, 2006 at 08:06 PM (#2055386)
Anyone else want to see Mendez elected only so the vote totals all line up?
   53. DavidFoss Posted: June 07, 2006 at 08:24 PM (#2055405)
Anyone else want to see Mendez elected only so the vote totals all line up?

Ah... so that's what's doing it. 'fixed width' isn't so fixed when the 'é' character is included.
   54. jimd Posted: June 07, 2006 at 10:26 PM (#2055567)
Boy, is that list criminal.

Yet practically all weren't going to get elected by the BBWAA anyway.

Between the time they instituted the 5-yr waiting rule
and the time they added the 5% elimination rule,
Ralph Kiner is the only candidate that the BBWAA elected
that would have been snuffed under the 5% rule.

Kiner's voting history.
Year Election Votes Pct
1960 BBWAA 3 1.12
1962 BBWAA 5 3.13
1964 BBWAA 31 15.42
1966 BBWAA 74 24.50
1967 BBWAA 124 42.47
1968 BBWAA 118 41.70
1969 BBWAA 137 40.29
1970 BBWAA 167 55.67
1971 BBWAA 212 58.89
1972 BBWAA 235 59.34
1973 BBWAA 235 61.84
1974 BBWAA 215 58.90
1975 BBWAA 273 75.41
   55. jimd Posted: June 07, 2006 at 10:35 PM (#2055573)
I think the problem with the 5% rule is that it immediately closes off discussion.

If it was modified to be like 5 years under 5% then it would be clear that the guy had no initial support and wasn't going to get any.
   56. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: June 08, 2006 at 12:43 AM (#2055668)
The other problem is that even if they weren't going to be elected by the BBWAA, if they had stayed on the ballot they surely would have picked up some steam, which eventually would lead to some of them getting inducted via whatever the Vets Committee is 15-20-30 years from now.
   57. Howie Menckel Posted: June 08, 2006 at 02:00 AM (#2055787)
This basically gets back to something I have noted before - the left-brain, right-brain thing.
You have the BBWAAA, most of whose members fear trigonometry, much less algebra.
Yet they are devising percentage plans for maintaining eligibility.

It's like asking your plumber to suggest a book on philosophy.
Sure, on occasion you'll find a guy who has some great suggestions, but for the most part, not so much.
   58. Howie Menckel Posted: June 08, 2006 at 02:02 AM (#2055790)
lol, I meant "much less calculus."

but there is only a nano-second to stop that post once the "submit" button has been pushed...
   59. jimd Posted: June 08, 2006 at 02:39 AM (#2055884)
if they had stayed on the ballot they surely would have picked up some steam, which eventually would lead to some of them getting inducted via whatever the Vets Committee is 15-20-30 years from now.

For example: Richie Ashburn

Year Election Votes Pct
1968 BBWAA 6 2.12
1969 BBWAA 10 2.94
1970 BBWAA 11 3.67
1971 BBWAA 10 2.78
1972 BBWAA 11 2.78
1973 BBWAA 25 6.58
1974 BBWAA 56 15.34
1975 BBWAA 76 20.99
1976 BBWAA 85 21.91
1977 BBWAA 139 36.29
1978 BBWAA 158 41.69
1979 BBWAA 130 30.09
1980 BBWAA 134 34.81
1981 BBWAA 142 35.41
1982 BBWAA 126 30.36

He failed under my 5 yrs under 5% proposal but still got to 42% eventually.
   60. sunnyday2 Posted: June 08, 2006 at 04:10 AM (#2055969)
> (Ashburn) got to 42% eventually.

Grich and Whitaker never did that. This proves (statistically) that Ashburn was the better player

Signed (Baseball Writer)
   61. Evan Posted: June 08, 2006 at 01:32 PM (#2056106)
Anyone else want to see Mendez elected only so the vote totals all line up?

Where are the vote totals not lining up? They're in straight lines in both Firefox and IE for me...
   62. DavidFoss Posted: June 08, 2006 at 04:16 PM (#2056216)
Where are the vote totals not lining up? They're in straight lines in both Firefox and IE for me...

In my IE, the fixed-width 'é' character is a couple of pixels thinner. Two of them makes his whole line of numbers about a third of a character off.

Testing:
eeeee
ééééé 
   63. DavidFoss Posted: June 08, 2006 at 04:20 PM (#2056218)
Hmmm... its fine in the 'code' tag. Must only be a problem in the top moderator-only section.

I wouldn't mind dropping the accents. Its nice to have, but they aren't universal (bb-ref doesn't have them).

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
The Id of SugarBear Blanks
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

Syndicate

Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats

 

 

 

 

Page rendered in 0.8700 seconds
49 querie(s) executed