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Sunday, July 23, 2006

1982 Ballot Discussion

1982 (Aug 7)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

643 199.8 1954 Hank Aaron-RF
519 153.3 1956 Frank Robinson-RF/LF
374 115.8 1961 Billy Williams-LF
322 94.6 1961 Willie Davis-CF
267 78.8 1963 Bill Freehan-C
245 63.9 1964 Tony Oliva-RF
205 66.2 1965 Rico Petrocelli-SS/3B
198 56.8 1958 Tony Taylor-2B
207 52.0 1960 Tommy Davis-LF
173 56.0 1964 Mike Cuellar-P
204 47.5 1963 Tommy Harper-LF/RF
178 40.0 1966 Cesar Tovar-CF/LF (1994)
141 39.9 1966 Cleon Jones-LF
121 45.0 1966 Fritz Peterson-P
130 41.1 1960 Ray Sadecki-P
146 35.5 1961 Deron Johnson-1B (1992)
108 39.0 1961 Jim Brewer-RP (1987)
122 28.6 1964 Alex Johnson-LF
114 30.9 1968 Nate Colbert-1B


Players Passing Away in 1981
HoMers
Age Elected

None

Candidates
Age Eligible

84 1938 Freddy Leach-LF
83 1940 Andy High-3B
78 1944 Wild Bill Hallahan-P
75 1942 Fred Lindstrom-3B/CF
74 1948 Jack Knott-P
73 1951 Gee Walker-LF
70 1952 Sammy Hughes-2B
70 1955 Taffy Wright-RF
62 1958 Pete Reiser-CF
42 1976 Ray Oyler-SS

Thanks, Dan!

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 23, 2006 at 09:51 PM | 257 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Howie Menckel Posted: July 24, 2006 at 01:06 PM (#2109369)
This assumes we elect Aaron and FRobinson in 1982 (I know, awfully presumptuous):

HOM by pct at position, thru 1982

HOM batters by percentage of games played at position (min. 10 pct at a position, or it's not listed)

C (9.70) - Cochrane 100, Dickey 100, Hartnett 98, Gibson 95, Campanella 95, Bennett 88, Berra 87, Mackey 80, Santop 75, Ewing 47, Kelly 36, McVey 30, White 28, O'Rourke 11

1B (15.94) - Start 100, Gehrig 100, Mize 100, Terry 99, Brouthers 98, Sisler 97, Leonard 95, Connor 88, Foxx 87, Anson 83, Greenberg 83, Suttles 70, Banks 51, Wilson 45, Killebrew 40, Stovey 37, Charleston 35, Musial 35, McVey 31, Jennings 26, Lloyd 25, Heilmann 22, Ewing 19, Kelley 16, Delahanty 15, Hines 12, Lajoie 12, Spalding 11, Mantle 11, FRobinson 11, O'Rourke 10, Dihigo 10, JRobinson 10, Irvin 10

2B (12.13) - McPhee 100, Doerr 100, Gehringer 99, E Collins 98, Gordon 98, Herman 95, Lajoie 83, Frisch 77, Hornsby 72, Grant 70, Barnes 69, JRobinson 65, Richardson 43, Ward 26, HR Johnson 25, Groh 20, Hill 20, Pike 18, Dihigo 15, Wright 10, Wilson 10

3B (8.51) - Baker 100, J Collins 98, Hack 98, Santo 95, Groh 79, Sutton 69, White 51, Beckwith 50, Wilson 40, Killebrew 33, Davis 22, Frisch 20, Wallace 18, Dihigo 15, JRobinson 15, McVey 14, Richardson 13, Vaughan 11, Ott 10

SS (15.73) - Pearce 96, Boudreau 95, Reese 95, Glasscock 94, Appling 94, Cronin 92, Wells 90, GWright 89, Dahlen 88, Vaughan 85, Wallace 77, Jennings 70, HR Johnson 70, Lloyd 70, Wagner 68, Davis 58, Banks 45, Ward 44, Beckwith 35, Barnes 28, Grant 20, Sutton 19, Hornsby 16, Dihigo 15, Irvin 10, WBrown 10

OF (47.99) - Carey 100, Clarke 100, Hamilton 100, Thompson 100, Wheat 100, Goslin 100, DiMaggio 100, Averill 100, Doby 100, Slaughter 100, TWilliams 100, Ashburn 100, Snider 100, Clemente 100, Simmons 99, Burkett 99, Cobb 99, Flick 99, Gore 99, Sheckard 99, Speaker 99, Medwick 99, Jackson 98, Stearnes 98, Keeler 97, PWaner 97, Mays 97, CP Bell 95, Crawford 94, Ruth 92, Magee 91, Ott 90, Kaline 89, Mantle 88, Aaron 86, WBrown 85, Hines 82, Torriente 80, Kelley 79, Heilmann 77, FRobinson 77, Irvin 75, Pike 73, Delahanty 72, Hill 70, O'Rourke 69, Rogan 65, Musial 65, Stovey 63, Charleston 60, Caruthers 50, Kelly 47, Richardson 40, Suttles 30, Killebrew 20, Santop 20, Dihigo 20, McVey 18, Ewing 17, Greenberg 17, Davis 13, Spalding 13, Wagner 13, Berra 13, Ward 11, White 10, JRobinson 10

DH (0.11) - FRobinson 11

P (43.18) - Alexander 100, Covaleski 100, Faber 100, Plank 100, Vance 100, Grove 100, Hubbell 100, Lyons 100, Newhouser 100, Feller 100, Ruffing 100, Rixey 100, Wynn 100, Spahn 100, Roberts 100, Koufax 100, W Ford 100, Drysdale 100, Bunning 100, Wilhelm 100, Marichal 100, Gibson 100, R Foster 99, Brown 99, Mathewson 99, Walsh 99, SJ Williams 99, Young 99, B Foster 99, Paige 99, W Johnson 98, McGinnity 98, WFerrell 97, Lemon 97, Keefe 96, Nichols 96, Rusie 95, RBrown 95, Griffith 95, Clarkson 94, Galvin 92, Radbourn 78, Spalding 72, Caruthers 47, Rogan 35, Dihigo 25, Ward 16

Caveats: Totals treat all careers as equal. A little off on players like McVey and Sutton due to changing schedule length. Guesstimates on Negro Leaguers. Doesn't sufficiently represent pitching weight of players like Ruth or Caruthers.

P.S. I'd be open to 'improvements' on numbers for McVey/Sutton/Ruth/Caruthers types, and all Negro Leaguers.

INF: 62.01
OF:: 47.99
P:::: 43.18

More OFs than Ps - well, sort of.

If the standard is at least 95 pct of games at one position, we have 39 Ps but only 28 OFs. In chart form:
If it's 95 pct, Ps lead, 39-28.
If it's 90 pct, Ps lead, 41-32.
If it's 80 pct, Ps lead, 41-38.
If it's 70 pct, OFs lead, 45-43.
If it's 60 pct, OFs lead, 50-43.
If it's 50 pct, OFs lead, 51-43.

More pure Ps, clearly, but dropping merely to 70 pct puts OFs ahead. So they're about even, in my mind.

Is that too many OFs?
   2. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 25, 2006 at 12:04 AM (#2110375)
This assumes we elect Aaron and FRobinson in 1982 (I know, awfully presumptuous):

Heh.
   3. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: July 25, 2006 at 01:07 AM (#2110617)
Prelim Ballot:

1. Henry Aaron: I don't think I need to say much.
2. Frank Robinson: See above.


CHASM


3. Ralph Kiner: An amazing peak, on a par with the gentlemen residing north.

GAP

4. Jose Mendez: To me, the best pitcher on the ballot and it isnt particularly close.
5. Billy Williams: Should sneak in during the upcoming backlog elections.

GAP

6. Minnie Minoso: Again, maybe a guy I'm overvaluing, but I like him a bit better than the Duffy's, Van Haltren's, and Keller's of the world.
7. Joe Sewell: Another guy that should get in in the mid 80's. Great numbers for a SS.
8. Billy Pierce: His 1955 is the stuff dreams are made of.
9. Hugh Duffy: Made his teams better. A old-time Derek Jeter, if you will. Reasonably good glove.
10. Bill Freehan: Maybe too low? Can't justify him higher than 8 or lower than here though. A top flight catcher with the glove, had some fantastic seasons with the stick, too.
11. Ken Boyer: Great glove, not too shabby at the plate, I have hope he might get in, but I can't rank him above the 10 guys ahead of him.
12. Rube Waddell: What could have been. Awesome at his peak. Pretty good prime. With more IP, he's up there with Mendez.
13. Charlie Keller: Poor man's Kiner. Close to Kiner with war credit, from what I've read, but I'm not sure how real the war credit is.
14. Cupid Childs: Another guy I hope we squeeze in. Fantastic early career, not a bad glove.
15. Dobie Moore: Did a little re-evaluating, and I like him right here with Childs. I may need to do some more due diligence here.
16. George Van Haltren: Not much of a peak, but a solid career. Didn't hang on for counting stats, was consistently above average.
17. Pete Browning: Good peak gets a discount due to competition, but not so much that Pete doesn't get a spot on my ballot. Loses spots due to the quality of this year's class, and my re-evaluation of Dobie Moore.
18. Jake Beckley: Sorry Karlmagnus, this is as high as I can justify him for now. A peak of any kind would have him in the top 10.
19. Dick Redding: Him being here speaks more the quality of the eligibles than anything else. Will move into the top 12 in some of our lean years, I think.
20. Nellie Fox: Great glove, underrated bat. Good guy at 20.
21 - 30: Charley Jones, Norm Cash, Dizzy Dean, Gavvy Cravath, Roger Bresnahan, Addie Joss, Willie Davis, Pie Traynor, Chuck Klein
   4. sunnyday2 Posted: July 25, 2006 at 02:07 AM (#2110852)
Prelim

1. Hank Aaron
2. Frank Robinson--F. Robby had just slightly the better peak (IMO) but Aaron has too much career

3. Dobie Moore
4. Ralph Kiner
5. Rube Waddell

6. Billy Williams--maybe a little overrated historically; a #3 vote here (to me) is overrating him

7. Larry Doyle
8. Addie Joss

9. Bill Freehan--as underrated as Billy Williams is over, clearly the #1 catcher now eligible

10. Charley Jones
11. Pete Browning
12. Orlando Cepeda
13. Edd Roush
14. Vic Willis
15. Jose Mendez

16. Frank Howard
17. Minnie Minoso
(17a. Stan Hack)
(17b. Don Drysdale)
18. Alejandro Oms
(18a. Bobby Doerr)
19. Hugh Duffy
20. Phil Rizzuto
21. Nellie Fox
22. Charlie Keller
23. Norm Cash
24. Joe Sewell
(24a. Richie Ashburn)
25. Jim McCormick
   5. Juan V Posted: July 25, 2006 at 02:14 AM (#2110881)
Hello, I´ve been lurking here for a while, about the last 30 "years", and I wanted to know if I could become a voter...
   6. OCF Posted: July 25, 2006 at 02:39 AM (#2110978)
F. Robby had just slightly the better peak (IMO)

What about the relative strengths of the two leagues? Look at this progression in OPS+:

Age OPS+
25 164
26 174
27 133 (missed time - just 140 G)
28 150
29 151
----- changes leagues ----
30 199
31 188
32 153
33 165
34 151

It's just one person, one data point, and all sorts of things were going on in his head after he got traded, but that pattern is completely consistent with the idea that the NL was the stronger league. And with the peak differences between him and Aaron being as small as they are, that could easily matter. (And your vote is set anyway - this is a theortical, nitpicky discussion.)
   7. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: July 25, 2006 at 03:05 AM (#2111028)
Well, the NL probably wasn't the stronger league by 30+ points of OPS+.

It is possible that Robinson had a bit of a dip in his late tewnties, if you leave them blank his career looks 164,174,x,x,x,199,188,153,165,151 which makes sense. A lot of great player peak offensively in their early 30's, but their defensive deficiencies begin to show up at that time driving their total value down.

I guess I am just saying that I dont' think there is more than a 5-7 OPS+ difference between the leagues at this time.
   8. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: July 25, 2006 at 03:12 AM (#2111038)
Also, I have a favor to ask you guys...

As I have stated before I am in Hong Kong right now and I didn't pack my WS, NBJHBA, or Total Baseball books so I don't have access to season by season WS. I had done work up through last election, but I miscalculated how many elections I would be here in Asia for before returning to NY in early August.

Therefore, I was wondering if someone might be able to post the season by season and career WS for Williams, Freehan, and Oliva. I dont think the others will make my top 60 so I can wait on them, but if they have any fans, feel free to post their WS as well. I also want to ask if WS in 154 game seasons could be marked with an asterisk or something, I will do the translations from there.

Thanks.

My initial reaction is that Freehan makes my ballot, Williams will be in my top 20, if not a decent bit higher, and Oliva will be found wanting, below the Minoso/Burns/Veach Crowd in the low 30's.
   9. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: July 25, 2006 at 03:13 AM (#2111040)
I'm curious: is there anyone who is planning on not voting Aaron and Robinson #1 and #2, respectively? If so, what's your reasoning?

Other than to be a contrarian. :)
   10. Dag is a salt water fish in fresh water world Posted: July 25, 2006 at 03:21 AM (#2111051)
Hello, I´ve been lurking here for a while, about the last 30 "years", and I wanted to know if I could become a voter...

Sure. Just submit a provisional ballot in this thread & be aware of the rules/guidelines for voting (no strategic voting, etc). If there's any problems, someone will let you know. It's a good election to start. Everyone already knows who's getting elected.
   11. Ardo Posted: July 25, 2006 at 04:23 AM (#2111124)
Henry Aaron and Frank Robinson are not only outstanding ballplayers, but gentlemen ambassadors and pioneering African-Americans for professional baseball. I will be disappointed not to see Aaron and Robinson unanimous #1 and #2.

1982 Preliminary Ballot

1. Henry Aaron
2. Frank Robinson
3. Jose Mendez
4. Bill Freehan - Wally Schang has a slight batting advantage in a harder era for catchers, but Freehan's defense and quality-of-play surpass him.
5. Billy Pierce - stands out above his positional peers more than the players below him.
6. Wally Schang
7. Charley Jones
8. Norm Cash
9. Quincy Trouppe - a half-notch below Simmons or Torre among "slugging catchers who played other positions".
10. Ken Boyer
11. Joe Sewell
12. Nellie Fox
13. Dick Redding
14. Orlando Cepeda
15. Willie Davis - adversely affected by the timing of his career. Put him in a present-day context, and he would look like Carlos Beltran.

Just off, but ballot-worthy: Minoso, Maranville, Roush, Billy Williams, Kiner.
   12. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: July 25, 2006 at 06:07 AM (#2111225)
I would like to how people feel about changing a player's context completely? I am not saying that this is the reason that Ardo is voting for Davis (there have been plenty of throw away lines in ballots and prelims and I have been caught on this before as well) but if we are going to do this, why not say that Gavvy Cravath would have been Mel Ott if he had played 20 years later or something like that? It's a very slippery slope and at the same time we are more concerned with value in their time than possible value in another time and place right?
   13. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: July 25, 2006 at 11:31 AM (#2111256)
1982 Preliminary Ballot

Spacing reflects margin between players or groups of players.

1. Hank Aaron

2. Frank Robinson



3. Charlie Keller


4. Billy Williams
5. Bill Freehan

6. Jose Mendez
7. Dobie Moore
8. Quincy Trouppe
9. Rube Waddell
10. Dick Redding

11. Nellie Fox
12. Minnie Minoso
13. Alejandro Oms
14. Billy Pierce
15. Tommy Leach

Other Consensus Top Ten Returnees
Joe Sewell - Top 50. Low peak. Last good season came at 32.
Ralph Kiner - Top 25. Four outstanding seasons not enough.
Cupid Childs - Top 50. Closer to 25th than 50th. Shortish career. Positional dominance not an important factor in evaluation.
Hugh Duffy - Top 25. Worthy player crowded off of tight ballot.
   14. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: July 25, 2006 at 11:32 AM (#2111257)
Oh, forgot Jake Beckley.

But you know my feelings on him already.
   15. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: July 25, 2006 at 11:34 AM (#2111258)
Maybe there should be three lines between Aaron and Robinson. And three hundred between Aaron and Beckley.
   16. Rusty Priske Posted: July 25, 2006 at 12:36 PM (#2111292)
Odd question that popped into my head, 1983 edition:


How do you pronouce Cueller?
   17. sunnyday2 Posted: July 25, 2006 at 12:39 PM (#2111295)
Quay'-ar
   18. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 25, 2006 at 12:40 PM (#2111296)
How do you pronouce Cueller?

QUAIL-yar, I believe. At least that's the way I remember it. Maybe KWAY-yar?
   19. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2006 at 12:51 PM (#2111302)
KWAY-yahr, is how they pronounced it.

I moved these from the 1981 results list, since Childs might be a better discussion fit here:

29. B Williams doubled to catcher Posted: July 25, 2006 at 07:58 AM (#2111270)

All of this overlooks the fact that Bid McPhee was a near-contemporary who had a long career, and Fred Dunlap a near-contemporary who had nearly as good of a peak/prime. Best 2B every year for 10 years...I dunno. He mighta been the best overall for 10 years if you select a 10 year period that is most advantageous to Childs. Best 2B of the 19C? For peak he can't hold a candle to Barnes or even Hardy Richardson and for career again there's McPhee.

Now now, that's not really a fair argument. Bid McPhee played forever, but his peak and prime are distinctly inferior to Childs'. Dunlap prime was over by 1886 or so, and his last decent year was 1888. Childs doesn't get going till 1890, so their primes are separated by half a decade. I guess you could call that near contemporaries, but given the rapid rate of change of the level of play and the nature of the game from the 1880's to the 1890's, they're not really contemporary at all.

Either way, Childs passes the Keltner test as the best 2B over his prime years.
30. B Williams doubled to catcher Posted: July 25, 2006 at 08:24 AM (#2111287)

A little more on Childs:

The best equivalent I can think of for Childs in the modern Game is Derek Jeter; Childs plays a less important defensive position, but plays it well, unlike Jeter whose defense at SS is...you-know-what.

Here are his translated prime stats from BP. The formatting is awful, but you get the idea:

Age--Year---AVG/OBP/SLG
24--1892---319/439/462
25--1893---285/416/433
26--1894---278/405/410
27--1895---238/348/342
28--1896---295/417/446
29--1897---289/396/422

So when you put his stats in the modern offensive environment, it looks alot like Derek Jeter, no? (He even has the early peak year, a-la Jeter 1999)

Now, how did his teams do? Childs was, most years, probably the 2nd best player on the Cleveland Spiders behind Jesse Burkett (actually, BP hates Burkett's defense, so there are a few years where they have Childs ranked number 1). And these Cleveland teams were generally excellent during his prime:

1892: 93-56
1893: 73-55
1894: 68-61
1895: 84-46
1896: 80-48
1897: 69-62

For an aggregate W-L of 467-328, a .587 W%. Standard disclaimers about 1890's competitive balance apply.
31. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 25, 2006 at 08:27 AM (#2111288)

Either way, Childs passes the Keltner test as the best 2B over his prime years.

Without a doubt, Bernie. He was the undisputed king of second baseman during the Gay Nineties. One can try, but there is absolutely no way that can be challenged.

As for McPhee and Dunlap, I do have Cupid slightly behind McPhee, which is a testament to Childs' far superior peak. McPhee was about as much of a career player that you can be to enter the HoM. As Bernie noted about Dunlap, he didn't have the prime of Childs. His 1884 season needs some serious regression, too. I used to him have him on my ballot decades ago, but I can't see any argument for him over Childs.
32. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2006 at 08:28 AM (#2111289)

Childs out-OPS+'d McPhee by double digits in each of 1890-94 and 1896-98, losing out in 1895 and (barely) in 1899.

McPhee also had an 1880s career that Childs didn't, and McPhee is a fielding benchmark of the era. They're awfully tough to compare.

If you whack Childs' 181 in 1890 AA down to 136 (and it WAS a dreadful league, so that's not crazy), you have OPS+s of:

150 36 35 31 23 21 21 11, also a 90.

Compared to some infielder from the 1950s, that doesn't dazzle at first as much as it should: This is the most vicious era in baseball history, and the lack of in-season durability and longevity reflect that.
Also, Childs is putting up these numbers in a one-league, 12-team era, generally.

Top 6 in OBP six times in the 1890s, very nice.
Top 9 in walks EVERY year from 1890 thru 1900, and had a top-9 pace in his other season, 1901, as a part-timer.
33. Chris Cobb Posted: July 25, 2006 at 08:37 AM (#2111293)

Without a doubt, Bernie. He was the undisputed king of second baseman during the Gay Nineties. One can try, but there is absolutely no way that can be challenged.

Frank Grant.
34. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 25, 2006 at 08:45 AM (#2111299)

Frank Grant.

I was referring to the ML, Chris, but I'll give you Grant. However, we have no way of really knowing how he compares to Childs, do we? I wish we did.
   20. Rusty Priske Posted: July 25, 2006 at 12:51 PM (#2111303)
Prelim:

PHoM: Aaron and Robinson (duh)

Four newcomers in my Top 5.

1. Hank Aaron
2. Frank Robinson
3. Billy Williams
4. George Van Haltren
5. Willie Davis
6. Jake Beckley
7. Tommy Leach
8. Mickey Welch
9. Dobie Moore
10. Hugh Duffy
11. Nellie Fox
12. Edd Roush
13. Orlando Cepeda
14. Norm Cash
15. Quincy Trouppe

16-20. Minoso, Childs, Rice, Sewell, Boyer
21-25. Kiner, Pierce, Redding, Ryan, Streeter
26-30. Willis, B.Johnson, Strong, F.Howard, Gleason
   21. Howie Menckel Posted: July 25, 2006 at 12:56 PM (#2111307)
Also, Pet-ro-SELLi, not the later TV show "Petro-CHELLI."

Sa-DECK-ee.

TOE-vahr.

COLE-bert (not Cole-BEAR, lol).

This is actually a fun idea for each group of newcomers.

I always got stumped on "Radatz," for instance, but I was all set once we got to the late 1960s.
   22. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 25, 2006 at 01:05 PM (#2111313)
Don't forget BEE-chimp, not BOW (the weapon) -champ. ;-)
   23. rawagman Posted: July 25, 2006 at 01:44 PM (#2111337)
From KJOK's vote -
8. BEN TAYLOR, 1B. Estimated 138 OPS+ over 9,091 PA’s. Def: FAIR. Comps are Fred McGriff and Mule Suttles. Too bad his best years were pre-live ball, pre-Negro Leagues, but we do have his 1921 stats that show his greatness. He’s Bill Terry plus about 3 more Bill Terry type seasons.


Ben Taylor is widely considered to be the best fielding Negro League 1B ever.
   24. sunnyday2 Posted: July 25, 2006 at 01:47 PM (#2111345)
The double L in Spanish (Cuellar, etc. etc. etc.) is silent.
   25. Jeff M Posted: July 25, 2006 at 01:52 PM (#2111347)
Anybody know what happened to Nate Colbert? He was pretty decent from ages 23 to 27 (OPS+ of 125 or more every year and 3 all-star appearances), then dropped off considerably at age 28, and his career was over at 30.

I never saw him play, but when I was a little kid I remember him being in my all-star book.
   26. Jeff M Posted: July 25, 2006 at 01:52 PM (#2111349)
I always got stumped on "Radatz," for instance, but I was all set once we got to the late 1960s.

Did we ever figure out Ossie Bluege?
   27. Jeff M Posted: July 25, 2006 at 02:09 PM (#2111373)
The double L in Spanish (Cuellar, etc. etc. etc.) is silent.

I think what you meant is that it is not pronounced with a hard L. The double L is pronounced with a "yah" sound.

My name is Jeff = Me llamo es Jefe => May yah'-mo ehs heh'-feh
   28. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 25, 2006 at 02:09 PM (#2111374)
Also, Pet-ro-SELLi, not the later TV show "Petro-CHELLI."
So not puh-TRAH-chuh-LEE????? ; )

Did we ever figure out Ossie Bluege
I think Bill James wrote in the NHBA that it was pronounced like LOOGY.
   29. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 25, 2006 at 02:13 PM (#2111380)
My name is Jeff = Me llamo es Jefe => May yah'-mo ehs heh'-feh

My name is Dr. Chaleeko = Me llamo es Dr. Chal-ee-ko.

My name is Dr. Challeko = Me llamo es Dr. Chai-ee-ko.
   30. rawagman Posted: July 25, 2006 at 02:20 PM (#2111392)
blue-gee (soft g)
   31. sunnyday2 Posted: July 25, 2006 at 02:21 PM (#2111393)
That's right:

Bluege = Bloogy

And yes, the "LL" in Spanish is not really silent, it's just not a "L" sound. Rather a "y" sound.

When I was a kid, the Twin Cities media pronounced Versalles as "Ver-sal'-eez." Finally after 2-3 years there was some kind of epiphany and the media all started to pronounce it (correctly) as "Ver-si'-yez." There was also an effort to nickname him as Zorro, perhaps due to some discomfort with the pronunciation of Zoilo, but Zorro never stuck at all. I don't think he cared for it at all.
   32. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 25, 2006 at 02:48 PM (#2111418)
And yes, the "LL" in Spanish is not really silent, it's just not a "L" sound. Rather a "y" sound.


You're right, Marc. After four years of HS Spanish, I should have remembered that. But that was so long ago...
   33. Juan V Posted: July 25, 2006 at 03:22 PM (#2111451)
Ok, here´s a pre-provisional ballot, if you will. I haven´t quite processed all the candidates, but I don´t expect the final product to be much different from this:

1) Aaron
2) Robinson
3) Joe Sewell
4) Billy Williams
5) Jose Mendez
6) Ralph Kiner
7) Cupid Childs
8) Ken Boyer
9) Billy Pierce
10) Cannonball Dick Redding
11) Rube Waddell
12) George Van Haltren
13) Minnie Miñoso
14) Edd Roush
15) Hugh Duffy
   34. Juan V Posted: July 25, 2006 at 03:25 PM (#2111453)
I forgot: I use OPS+ (with plate apperances), ERA+ (with innings pitched) and WARP as my main measurements. I also use Win Shares when easily available.
   35. karlmagnus Posted: July 25, 2006 at 04:07 PM (#2111497)
Juan V., looks a fine ballot, with all eras represented, though you'll have to give rationale for your choices and top 10 non-choices.

Old joke:

Two examiners are walking th=rough a wood and hear a cuckoo

First examiner (quoting Keats):

"Oh cuckoo, shall I call thee bird
Or but a wandering voice?"

Second examiner (absent-mindedly):

"State the alternative preferred
With reasons for your choice."

If you haven't heard that before, it's wrong time, wrong country -- British "Punch" some time in 1908. I told you it was an old one.

Returning to the matter at hand:
If you use OPS+ and assuming you allow for the changes in 1B since the 1890s, what about Beckley?
   36. rawagman Posted: July 25, 2006 at 04:11 PM (#2111501)
Looks to be a fair representation of eras, negroleagues/whiteball.
Care to elaborate a little - what really floats your boat?
   37. Mark Donelson Posted: July 25, 2006 at 04:12 PM (#2111502)
I guess vote-swapping with someone in honor of Fritz Peterson would be unconstitutional? ;)
   38. rawagman Posted: July 25, 2006 at 04:14 PM (#2111503)
More to the point, Juan V, you have no catchers, or 1B.
Which is fine. I assume you have one/some just off-ballot. Care to share who your top guys of those positions are?
   39. rawagman Posted: July 25, 2006 at 04:34 PM (#2111525)
Interesting new candidates this year.
Besides Frank and Hank being some of the best hitters ever to grace the game, there are a whole slew of games who had 2 or 3 great seasons and then sank to mediocrity.
Cueller and Peterson (the wifeswapper!)
Willie Davis (I'm not all that impressed)
Cleon, the two Tommy's
Rico

Nate Colbert is a very interesting one. Five awesome seasons. Unfortunately, they were his only five full seasons.
I think it was Bill James who put one of his seasons in context and it came out as being one of the most impressive seasons ever.
I'll have to find that article.
Still not sure about Freehan.
I think he either just makes my ballot (14-15) or just misses.
   40. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 25, 2006 at 05:08 PM (#2111555)
Juan V., looks a fine ballot, with all eras represented, though you'll have to give rationale for your choices and top 10 non-choices.

As karlmagnus points out, all you need to do is include include some comments for included candidates and last year's top-ten excluded players and you're all set.

Welcome!
   41. DavidFoss Posted: July 25, 2006 at 05:18 PM (#2111566)
A lot of ballots starting off "Aaron Robinson". Makes me think of this guy.
   42. Mike Webber Posted: July 25, 2006 at 05:27 PM (#2111574)
Ardo and Rusty,

I'm not seeing much much to like about Willie Davis, I do understand that his park/era doesn't highlight what he might have done, but with a career OPS+ of 105, a max OPS of 134 and only one other season above 120, I don't understand how he makes your ballots.

I don't see him as close to the Roush/Duffy/Van Haltren group, but most of all I don't see him ahead of his contemporary Vada Pinson. (Pinson and Davis are both 4th on their similar batters comps on baseball ref).

Enlighten me please!
   43. sunnyday2 Posted: July 25, 2006 at 05:46 PM (#2111587)
Yeah, Willie Davis 5th makes Norm Cash 5th seem pretty reasonable.

But, a thought experiment. What if we started voting in 2006 and went backwards--i.e. if older players only became eligible in reverse order. What if Norm Cash and Willie Davis were in the top 10-15. Then the burden of proof would run the other way--prove to me that Pinson or Roush or Duffy and GVH is better.

Never mind. Just a thought.
   44. Urban Faber Posted: July 25, 2006 at 06:02 PM (#2111613)
And yes, the "LL" in Spanish is not really silent, it's just not a "L" sound. Rather a "y" sound.

I always liked Winston Llenas' name.
   45. Mike Webber Posted: July 25, 2006 at 06:19 PM (#2111639)
Then the burden of proof would run the other way--prove to me that Pinson or Roush or Duffy and GVH is better.

That is a fair request, and easily done so:

Roush and Van Haltren have more career win shares despite a shorter schedule - much shorter in GVH's case. They have higher OPS+ and they play the same positions. And GVH gets some pitching credit.

Duffy would be close to the same career win shares if the schedules lengths were the same, smokes them in OPS+ - and he has the big seasons.

Pinson slightly ahead of Willie Davis due to a couple bigger seasons and higher OPS+.
   46. Jeff M Posted: July 25, 2006 at 06:23 PM (#2111643)
I only use "jefe" occasionally because it means "boss" in Spanish and makes me feel important. :)
   47. Mike Webber Posted: July 25, 2006 at 06:31 PM (#2111653)
BTW - there should be some way you could legitimately ask someone what they are doing with putting them on the defensive and conversely some way you could clearly show that you are just being a pain in the rump and hurling insults without expecting a reply. Instead of BOLD or <b></b>italic you could type in {Sarcasm} or {Enlighten} so the person asking the question really wants to know the thought process or just wants to needle you a little. Sometimes its both, like when Kaline isn't on your ballot's top 15.

In this case I would have written my question in <Enlighten> cause there could certainly be something I am missing.

In fact yesterday I was looking a list of Dr Chaleeko's where he had Billy Williams ahead of Pops Stargell - and my initial reaction was, "That's crazy." But when I looked at it a little - not even really hard - I saw the Eric was dead on.

I think that might be because I began reading the Sporting News about '77 or '78 by which time Williams was done, and Stargell was still a huge figure in the game. If you asked me with out looking at any numbers I would have guessed that Stargell was easily better than Williams. I learn stuff every week doing this, which is why I have stuck with it.
   48. Rusty Priske Posted: July 25, 2006 at 06:42 PM (#2111667)
In the end, the Davis/Pinson comparison may be apt, because I overrated Pinson quite a bit last year.

Why do I like Davis? The short answer is that I am a career voter. The guy played 18 above average years. His fielding was above average and his hitting was above average (for nearly all of them, and the ones he was below, he was only a little below). I will take that over someone with higher stats over a much shorter period.

I almost had him fourth, but pushed him below George Van Haltren.
   49. sunnyday2 Posted: July 25, 2006 at 06:57 PM (#2111686)
I do believe that Willie Davis is one of those guys who, given a do-over and a random debut date, could have been a HoMer and/or HoFer. His park and era worked against him about as much as anybody, ever, plus he was compared to Willie Mays throughout his career, and there were other good contemporaries like Pinson and Mantle, not to mention Paul Blair and Flood (as glove heavy CFs). Still it's about value and I also have trouble projecting him to another time and place and applying a big benefit of the doubt. Besides, if you did the same for his contemporaries who seem to have been better, well, then, they would all get better too.
   50. DavidFoss Posted: July 25, 2006 at 07:06 PM (#2111693)
No one has mentioned it yet, but Cesar Tovar's main claim to fame is playing all nine positions in one game.

He went around the diamond p-c-1b-2b-ss-3b-lf-cf-rf. He stole a base, struck out Reggie Jackson and had a walk and a balk. Sort of a neat trick for a meaningless game late in the year. Its funny to see how much the rest of the lineup moved around to accomodate him. Graig Nettles was fairly versatile when he was younger. Anyhow, the Twins ended up winning the game. :-)
   51. Ardo Posted: July 25, 2006 at 07:58 PM (#2111736)
Thanks for the informed commentary on Cupid Childs and Willie Davis. I still prefer Davis over Pinson over GVH/Duffy/Ryan, but Edd Roush bests all other eligible CFs.

Roush is now #15 for me, with a #16-20 of Billy Williams, Maranville, Minoso, Kiner, and Childs. Davis is about #25.
   52. sunnyday2 Posted: July 25, 2006 at 08:34 PM (#2111767)
Tovar is just one of several old Twins who died young. Versalles and Allison come to mind. Battey was not that young, but younger than the life expectancy. Can't think of who else but it seems like there were a couple more.
   53. Juan V Posted: July 26, 2006 at 01:04 AM (#2112214)
OK, another provisional ballot, having pretty much completed my spreadsheets, and done some re-evaluations. I´ll be explaining my choices in this one.

As said above, I use OPS+, ERA+ and WARP, with some Win Shares thrown in. I tend to like prime the most, although I try to balance it with career. For a short peak to impress me, it has to be a really good one.

Anyways, to the ballot:

1) Aaron
2) Robinson: No words necessary on these two, right?
3) Joe Sewell: I like his production, and the shape of it (good AVG and OBP, plus the strikeouts) from a defensive premium position. Little things that put him ahead of..
4) Billy Williams: Rated as the third-best offensive player on the ballot by my sistems
5) Jose Mendez: Terrific peak/prime, career value a bit short.
6) Ralph Kiner: See above.
7) Cupid Childs: See above.
8) Quincy Trouppe: Best catcher I evaluated, by a large margin. I really like his prime.
9) Alejandro Oms: Really like his career value. Prime not too shabby either.
10) Billy Pierce: Best career among pitchers.
11) Cannonball Dick Redding: My system sees him and Pierce as almost identical, except for skin color. A little more prime, a little less career.
12) Bob Johnson: Very good numbers, deflated a little by playing on wartime leagues.
13) Ken Boyer: Tremendous WARP numbers, although those are mostly based on defense (regarded as very good, but I don´t know if I can place an exact value on that). Not as good with the bat.
14) Rube Waddell: My ERA+ system really likes him, even though it´s because of the large deadball era workload. In any case, I like his prime.
15) Jimmy Ryan: After reevaluating, he barely edged out Van Haltren for this last spot, thanks to versatility and a higher OPS+´

Main ommissions (in no particular order):

George Van Haltren, Edd Roush, Hugh Duffy: 19th century (and early 20th) centerfielders who ended up similarily rated by my sistems, falling just short of Ryan. I like them in that order.

Jake Beckley: My top first baseman, underwhelming peak/prime but nice career. Also, I give him extra credit for the higher defensive resposabilities of the position at his time.

Ben Taylor: Beckley´s black twin.

Minnie Miñoso: After a second look, I saw that he didn´t quite have the offensive value I´d like from a left fielder.

Dizzy Dean and Charlie Keller: Great peaks, but no shoulder seasons to speak of. Never mind career value.

Bob Elliott: Edges out Boyer as best offensive 3Bman, but playing during WW2 (and the resulting lower league quality) deflates his value.

Nellie Fox, Luis Aparicio, Pie Traynor: As good as they were with the glove, I don´t think they can overcome their offensive shortcomings.

Generally, the gap between the lower part of my ballot and the non-choices is quite small.
   54. karlmagnus Posted: July 26, 2006 at 01:18 AM (#2112254)
Great stuff; if you can't vote for Beckley you're at least nice about him, unlike some I could mention :-). Provided John Murphy and/or Joe Dimino are happy (and I see no reason why they shouldn't be) entirely unofficially and as just one far-from-consensus voter, welcome!
   55. karlmagnus Posted: July 26, 2006 at 01:20 AM (#2112264)
BTW, as you probably know, you'll need to repost the ballot on the 1982 Ballot thread, which will open early next Monday 31st July and remain open till 8pm EDT on MOnday 7th, when voting will close.
   56. OCF Posted: July 26, 2006 at 01:54 AM (#2112386)
Re: Cuellar (Quay-yar). The announcers I listened to in the 60's (mostly Harry Caray and Jack Buck) did pronounce this more or less as it should be in Spanish - and it took me a while to connect the name I heard with the name in print. On the other hand, the Cardinal announcers pronounced Vic Davalillo's name with a "j" or "zh" sound for the "ll", apparently because that's what Davalillo told them to do, telling them that it was a Venezuelan pronunciation.

Cuellar was Cuban - one of the last pre-Castro Cubans, signed as a 20-year-old amateur free agent in 1957.

I looked up his splits on Retrosheet; he's pretty darn close to platoon-neutral. RHB .255/.300/.355, LHB .245/.287/.351. I had to look because he was a lefty known for throwing a screwball.
   57. Juan V Posted: July 26, 2006 at 02:02 AM (#2112410)
Hmmm.. as far as I know, Venezuelans and Cubans pronunciate the "ll" alike. The differences are between them and the guys further south, like Argentina. Their pronunciation is somewhere in between a "y" and a "sh" sound.
   58. DavidFoss Posted: July 26, 2006 at 02:09 AM (#2112426)
But when I looked at it a little - not even really hard - I saw the Eric was dead on.

Its a classic case of in-season durability coming into play. Stargell crushed BWilliams by rate, but Stargell had trouble staying healthy and BWilliams almost never missed a single game.
   59. karlmagnus Posted: July 26, 2006 at 02:26 AM (#2112460)
Don't see it. Stargell had 9026PA at 147, Williams 10519 at 132. Stargell would have needed an extra 1493PA at 41 to equal Williams. That's nowhere near replacement value for an outfielder. Stargell clears the bar comfortably, as I see it; Williams is very marginal.
   60. Dag is a salt water fish in fresh water world Posted: July 26, 2006 at 02:37 AM (#2112498)
If anyone's curious: I just sent Joe & John an e-mail which included an attachment dealing with pitcher run support. It contained the SUP (Pete Palmer's version of RSI) for every season by any pitcher who started at least 20 games from 1871-2004 (my copy of the Palmer/Gilette 'cyclopedia's a little old). Joe e-mailed me and he might add it to the yahoo groups.

So you know.
   61. Cblau Posted: July 26, 2006 at 03:09 AM (#2112562)
Re post 59:
Ozzie Guillen pronounces his name "Gee-jen". I always thought that was wrong, but it fits in with post #58.
   62. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 26, 2006 at 03:11 AM (#2112568)
A name is a name, it should never be changed.

Tell it to Chris J./Dag Nabbit/Out of Order/soemthing about David Ortiz/etc etc etc!
   63. Sean Gilman Posted: July 26, 2006 at 05:51 AM (#2112693)
IIRC, the "ll" is pronounced with a "zh" sound in Spain.

FWIW, Mariner shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt asked the M's announcers to pronounce his name "Juniesky" with the "zh" sound for the "y".
   64. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: July 26, 2006 at 07:24 AM (#2112736)
"if you can't vote for Beckley you're at least nice about him, unlike some I could mention :-)."

Beckley sucks...

Juan,

I hate to become's Charlie Keller's karl here, but if you like Kiner and Childs, why not Keller? You are aware that he had very good years trapped in the minors and deserves credit for at least one of them plus 1.75 years of war credit. I have trouble seeing how Kiner is a lot better.

Toilet,

I sorta have a pet peeve with that as well, especially with countries. With names, usually the name change comes from the person themselves, which is fine. The coutnry that gest me is Germany. We say Germany, they say Deutschland (which isnt' hard to say) and the French say Allemagne. Those aren't even close! And I know that China isn't China in China.... ... ... you get my point.
   65. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: July 26, 2006 at 07:52 AM (#2112747)
This may have gotten lost in the earlier parts of this thread but can anyone provide me with season by season WS (in whatever order, I am not into consecutive peaks) for Williams and Oliva? Davis too since he seems to be getting some support.
   66. sunnyday2 Posted: July 26, 2006 at 11:26 AM (#2112770)
Comparing Childs to Keller is tough. Childs has a longer career (more all-star seasons anyway), playing in a totally different era at a totally different position with totally different skills and values. If somebody likes Childs, I don't see how Keller follows at all.

As to Kiner, as I've said many times before, the difference comes down to the career shape. Kiner's value is all packed into full seasons with a full season's worth of pennant impact.

Keller dribbled a fair part of his total value out in 40-50-60 game increments that don't have a lot of pennant value. That and the fact that some of his value is also hypothetical. I do give him WWII credit, but I would guess that most voters don't give him MiL credit. To say he is equivalent to Kiner assumes some value that is in the eye of the beholder.

So for me Kiner is top 5, Keller is around #20. A great player at his peak, you bet, but a rich man's Ross Youngs, too.
   67. rawagman Posted: July 26, 2006 at 11:47 AM (#2112772)
I used to work in a travel bookstore. One of the owner's biggest pet peeves, along with people who walked in with large backpacks and coffee cups, was the way the English language (we do it more than most) mangled place names the world over.
Who did those Brits think they were, anyway?

Hungary = Magyar (but more unpronouncable).

Living in Israel, I take some consolation that at least we weren't so mangled. Actually pronounced "Yisrael."

For those concerned, Tel Aviv (my home) is still safe, and I have not yet been called up.
   68. sunnyday2 Posted: July 26, 2006 at 12:04 PM (#2112774)
Cesar Tovar was a fave of a lot of Twins fans, though the fact that he did not play regularly for the 1965 pennant winners means that he is not remembered as fondly as Versalles and Oliva and all those guys who did. He came up in '65 as a 24 year old rookie, debuting in April though, as I recall, he went back down and most of his appearances came after a late season call up. He was not on the World Series roster.

Basically he was a slappy hitter who didn't walk and so his career OPS+ is just 99. Even at his peak he was 118-14-9-6-3. That 118 consisted of .300/.356/.442 as he led the league in both 2B and 3B. The following year he led the league in hits but had an OPS+ of just 103 (.311/.356/.368) as his XBH fell from 59 to just 33. He also got OB by getting HBP, leading the league with 14 one year and getting hit 17 and 13 times 2 other seasons.

As a slappy guy, the Twins wanted him to play a glove position but the fact is he was a mediocre glove. Think Alfonso Soriano without the power. But he displayed the same versatility careerwise that he did in that famous 1968 game when he played all 9 positions.

1966 2B 76 games SS 31 CF 20
1967 3B 70 CF 64 2B 36 LF 10 as Carew came up and Killebrew shifted from 3B in 1966 to 1B
1968 3B 75 LF 39 2B 35 CF 34 2B 18
1969 CF 70 2B 41 LF 39 3B 20 as Killebrew moved back to 3B and Allison retired
1970 CF 134 LF 39
1971 LF 98 CF 44 as Twins gave Jim Nettles a long look in CF
1972 RF 101 LF 38 as Oliva missed almost the entire year and the Twins played Bobby Darwin in CF

1974 Texas CF 87 LF 66 RF 11
1975 Tex-Oak DH 66 LF 25

Those were his only 2 100 games seasons after the Twins moved him to Philly, who played him 97 times in 1973 at 3B, 2B and RF.

His versatility was a plus, but it's not like being able to move a Harmon Killebrew around. Even at his best he was only a good offensive player though those 59 XBH in 1970 were a very nice total for a guy who led off and stole 30 bases (and he hit .385 vs. the O's in the ALCS that year). He stole as many as 45 bases in a year and 226 total, but his SB pct. was not very good at 226-108 with years of 30-15, 18-14, 19-11, 16-11, etc.

All in all, not the player we Twins fans, especially us kids, thought he was, but a colorful player who was mightily fun to watch. I'll never forgot PA announcer Bob Casey milking the alliteration of "Ceeeeee-SAR Toooooooo-VAR" for all it was worth.
   69. Al Peterson Posted: July 26, 2006 at 01:15 PM (#2112812)
Lots of candidates this year. Off the top of my head:

1. This is the first class that really is affected by the DH. Aaron, Robinson, Williams, Oliva all spent at least a couple years in the slot. Seems to be in the early years it was a place to keep the aging star in the lineup, keep the fans happy. All the above players were productive in the role but we were yet to develop the model of younger players who were bad fielders being placed at DH. Do we handle the DH era differently when compared to pre-DH players. Probably not if you take into context how a player placed among his contemporaries.

2. Freehan looks like a good candidate, Willie Davis would have to be a career-only argument.

3. Charlie Keller needs to be considered very carefully.

I've seen 1.75 years of war credit thrown around. Seeing as you he got 44 G in 1945 I doubt we can expand his season out to 176 games.

In addition for those extrapolating out his 1945 season his peak will look great since OPS+ of 180 is his career high. A WWII discount for his 1943 season needs to be done as other war candidates have been adjusted.

For Win Share users you have the man who benefitted most from being on consistently great teams. He's the anti-Bob Johnson. Even his two years with the Newark Bears were on two of the greatest minor league teams of all-time, obviously since they were the farm club for the Yankees.

The "what-if" case for Keller is one of the most interesting we still have around. I still would place Browning and Kiner above him.
   70. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 26, 2006 at 01:20 PM (#2112819)
Tovar is just one of several old Twins who died young.

Kirby. (I know, wrong generation...).
   71. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 26, 2006 at 01:46 PM (#2112839)
Speaking of anglicizing names. I remember a lot of Latinos' baseball cards with names that were anglicized: Bob Clemente is the classic example or maybe Guillermo "Don't Call Me Willie" Hernandez. Fortunately today we are blessed to live a time when multicultural awareness informs how we baseball looks at names, and we have the benefit of hearing them at least somewhat closely pronounced to their native language and enjoying the phonological and linguistic diversity of various langauges.

But what if names were still anglicized like in the 1960s??? Here's some possibilities:

Louie Castillo or Lou Castillo
Charley Beltran
Pete Martinez
Joey Betancourt
George Posada
Marty Rivera
Bill Pena
Henry Choi
Mike Tejada or Mickey Tejada
Al Rios
Xavier Lopez
Carl Baerga
John Gonzalez
Joey Santana
Frank Liriano
Rob Alomar
Johnny Uribe
Ozzie Fernandez
Joe Contreras
Mark Scutaro
Ernie Durazo
Ray Hernandez
Al Soriano
Danny Jimenez
Moe Alou
Phil Alou
Earl Hernandez
Earl Cabrera
Mike Cabrera
oldster: Earl Rodrgiuez (aka Mr. Smoke)
Chuck Delgado
Chris Guzman
Joe Vidro
Andy Jones
Jules Franco????
Rod Rosario
Dick Rodriguez
Ray Castro
Odie Perez????
   72. Swing on This Posted: July 26, 2006 at 02:48 PM (#2112911)
can anyone provide me with season by season WS (in whatever order, I am not into consecutive peaks) for Williams and Oliva? Davis too since he seems to be getting some support.

Here's the numbers Jschmeagol:

Only 10 WS Seasons

Davis WS G

1961 10 128
1962 26 157
1963 17 156
1964 26 157
1965 15 142
1966 20 153
1967 15 143
1968 19 160
1969 22 129
1970 24 146
1971 25 158
1972 25 149
1973 23 152
1974 20 153
1975 15 140
1976 16 141

Oliva WS G
1964 27 161
1965 33 149
1966 28 159
1967 25 146
1968 21 128
1969 25 153
1970 30 157
1971 23 126
1973 13 146

Williams WS G
1961 15 146
1962 18 159
1963 28 161
1964 28 162
1965 33 164
1966 21 162
1967 28 162
1968 30 163
1969 24 163
1970 29 161
1971 26 157
1972 32 150
1973 20 156
1974 16 117
1975 17 155

Oliva led the AL in WS with 33 in 1965, Williams also played an impressive 164 games that season.
   73. yest Posted: July 26, 2006 at 02:49 PM (#2112913)
Living in Israel, I take some consolation that at least we weren't so mangled. Actually pronounced "Yisrael."
or altirnitavly Yisruel (for those who do not pronose every Kumutz as a pasach)
   74. DavidFoss Posted: July 26, 2006 at 03:01 PM (#2112924)
Johnny Marichal
Chris Torriente
Philip Alou
Jesse Alou
Joey Cruz
Lou Tiant
Camille Pascual (Cam?)
Chick Carrasquel

And I don't know how to americanize Orlando or Zoilo. Aurelio would mean "Goldy" I suppose.
   75. rawagman Posted: July 26, 2006 at 03:27 PM (#2112955)
Living in Israel, I take some consolation that at least we weren't so mangled. Actually pronounced "Yisrael."
or altirnitavly Yisruel (for those who do not pronose every Kumutz as a pasach)


That would be a Yiddish pronouciation. Proper modern Hebrew would only be "Yisrael."
   76. DL from MN Posted: July 26, 2006 at 03:36 PM (#2112964)
Prelim Ballot

1. Henry Aaron - my favorite player, I wear 44 on my softball jersey
2. Frank Robinson
3. Billy Williams - better than #4 but a pretty similar player.
4. Bob Johnson
5. Billy Pierce
6. Norm Cash
7. Orlando Cepeda
8. Ken Boyer
9. Ralph Kiner
10. Bob Elliott
11. Charlie Keller
12. Tommy Bridges
13. Dutch Leonard
14. Jake Beckley
15. Minnie Minoso
16. Jose Mendez
17. Virgil Trucks
18. Joe Sewell
19. Frank Howard
20. Dick Bartell
21-25. Dobie Moore, Chuck Klein, Quincy Trouppe, Rube Waddell, Gavy Cravath
26-30. Jack Quinn, Tommy Leach, Urban Shocker, Hilton Smith, Edd Roush
Freehan slots in at #49, just ahead of Schang #55. My catchers, despite the healthy bonus I give them, may still be too low. When I revised Trouppe assuming avg defense, 7200PAs and 119 OPS+ he fell off the ballot to #23.

Oliva makes top 100 at 64, Willie Davis at 72, Rico Petrocelli #96 between Ray Dandridge (#92) and Ken Keltner (#99).
   77. yest Posted: July 26, 2006 at 03:37 PM (#2112969)
Proper <u>modern</u> Hebrew
Proper Hebrew would be either Yisruel or Yisrawel
   78. sunnyday2 Posted: July 26, 2006 at 03:46 PM (#2112985)
Man, 3 years on this project and I'm still learning. I had no idea you lived in Israel, Ron, and as for yest, who knew?

Zoilo would be "Zorro."
   79. sunnyday2 Posted: July 26, 2006 at 03:48 PM (#2112990)
DL: Not much leather in there except for the idiosyncratic choice at #20.

And Freehan #49???

That is a Silver Slugger ballot, basically.
   80. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 26, 2006 at 03:48 PM (#2112992)
Proper modern Hebrew
Proper Hebrew would be either Yisruel or Yisrawel


And everything comes back to Pennsylvania where modern Pennsylvanian English properly pronounces LANGK-iss-ter and plain-old modern English (not the band!) says LAN-cast-er.

You see we apparently have only three kinds of people at the HOM: Pennsylvanians, Israelis, and Minnesotans.... ; )
   81. OCF Posted: July 26, 2006 at 03:55 PM (#2113001)
My mother may have been born and raised in Pennsylvania, but I've only been there to visit and I don't eat scrapple.
   82. rawagman Posted: July 26, 2006 at 04:00 PM (#2113004)
yest - where did you get that information?
In any case, the constitutional language of Israel is the modern form of Hebrew.

sunnyday2 - the name's Ryan. Been here for almost 2 years now, 5 years total.
   83. Juan V Posted: July 26, 2006 at 04:03 PM (#2113006)
Juan,

I hate to become's Charlie Keller's karl here, but if you like Kiner and Childs, why not Keller? You are aware that he had very good years trapped in the minors and deserves credit for at least one of them plus 1.75 years of war credit. I have trouble seeing how Kiner is a lot better.


The short answer, is I like my primes to be longer.

The longer answer is related to war credit. I don´t like to add peak/prime seasons by it, but in his case it´s tricky, because his best seasons were right before the war. And his non peak/prime seasons are, well...

In any case, the distance between #13 and #20 on my ballot is really small, and I will take another look at him between now and the posting of the final ballot, to see if he can get a spot on it.
   84. DL from MN Posted: July 26, 2006 at 04:46 PM (#2113099)
Ken Boyer at #8 is a pretty good glove. I will agree that a below average bat means no ballot for me.

Giving Trouppe above average defense would move him back on ballot.
   85. yest Posted: July 26, 2006 at 04:57 PM (#2113116)
rawagman I didn't mean to impley that the modern isrealy prunonciation (of the kumutz) had no basis but that the overall prunociation was a compulation of diffrent traditions () that don't agree with one another decided arbitreruly by Ben Yehuda(the modern languge uses the ashkenazi Ches and ain but not their kumutz or suf)
I think Yekkie's and Yemminites prunonce a kumutz as an aw sound
and Eastern Europeans and Syrans prunonce it as a u sound
the mordern Israely form is simalerto the Northern African prunoncation

Man, 3 years on this project and I'm still learning. I had no idea you lived in Israel, Ron, and as for yest, who knew?
I was born and live in NYC as were my parents and most of my grand parents
   86. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 26, 2006 at 05:20 PM (#2113153)
For those concerned, Tel Aviv (my home) is still safe, and I have not yet been called up.

Hang in there, Ryan.
   87. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 26, 2006 at 05:22 PM (#2113157)
I was born and live in NYC as were my parents and most of my grand parents

Oh, you're one of those, huh? ;-)
   88. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 26, 2006 at 05:25 PM (#2113171)
You see we apparently have only three kinds of people at the HOM: Pennsylvanians, Israelis, and Minnesotans.... ; )

Well, I've been to Pennsylvania, was born in a Jewish hospital, and there is a Brooklyn in Minnesota. :-D
   89. yest Posted: July 26, 2006 at 05:27 PM (#2113175)
Oh, you're one of those, huh? ;-)

what ???????????
   90. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 26, 2006 at 05:33 PM (#2113191)
what ???????????

A New Yorker, that is (as am I). I thought you would know where I was going with that, yest.
   91. sunnyday2 Posted: July 26, 2006 at 05:59 PM (#2113242)
Actually there is a Brooklyn Center in Minnesota, and a Brooklyn Park, too, but no Brooklyn.

Sorry, Ryan. We have a Ron W., too, (also R. W. IOW) but I remember now that's Wargo. As for yest, I meant that you know Hebrew. The only foreign (or rather non-English) language we know here in Minnesota is the Vaudevillian version of Norwegian (think Tim Conway). Well, other than Pig Latin, which of course grossly offends the pig. Tim Conway, OTOH, makes even Norwegians laugh.
   92. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 26, 2006 at 06:09 PM (#2113261)
Actually there is a Brooklyn Center in Minnesota, and a Brooklyn Park, too, but no Brooklyn.

I was thinking Brooklyn Park, Marc. Close enough. :-)
   93. Mark Donelson Posted: July 26, 2006 at 06:37 PM (#2113339)
Tim Conway, OTOH, makes even Norwegians laugh.

Don't you mean he makes only them laugh? ;)
   94. Jose Canusee Posted: July 26, 2006 at 06:52 PM (#2113368)
29. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 25, 2006 at 10:13 AM (#2111380)

My name is Jeff = Me llamo es Jefe =>

Should be "Me llamo Jefe" (I call myself Jeff) or possibly
"Mi nombre es Jefe" (My name is Jeff)
But not "Me llamo El Jefe" (I call myself George Steinbrenner)
   95. Juan V Posted: July 26, 2006 at 06:57 PM (#2113378)
I've never heard anyone else say Gee-zhen.

Me neither. Quite curious that Kubek thinks it´s pronounced like that (unless I´m misunderstanding it).
   96. OCF Posted: July 26, 2006 at 06:58 PM (#2113386)
Now that we've been through the 81/82 winter trading season, there's one question on the minds of Cardinal fans everywhere: does Whitey know what the blank he's doing?

Let's back up a few years. The Cardinals have been regarded as a very talented team with disappointing performance. Three Cardinals are regarded as either superstars or potential superstars on the rise: Keith Hernandez, Ted Simmons, and Garry Templeton. Templeton drew a lot of attention one year for getting over 100 hits each way as a switch hitter, and he was fast, and he hit doubles and triples. (He didn't draw walks, but who's paying attention to that?) You heard talk about St. Louis having the best left side of the infield anywhere, a notion that lumps Ken Reitz in with Templeton. Staring at Reitz's statistical line now, with all those OPS+ numbers in the 70's and 80's, it's hard to see how he was ever regarded as a good player, but I'm not lying when I say he was. Part of it was his tendency to be hot in April before settling down to being his usual self, and part of it was that tendency to look only at BA. Of course the outfield was more than a bit unsettled, especially since Brock retired. (Bobby Bonds didn't work out.)

Whitey Herzog was brought into this in the middle of the 1980 season. Whitey demanded, and got, more authority over the running of the club than nearly anyone had had since the roles of field manager and general manager became differentiated, and certainly more authority than anyone has had since.

When describing the choices Whitey had to make, I like to focus on the question of what to do with three young players who were already in the majors but who had not yet become established regulars: Terry Kennedy, Leon Durham, and Tommy Herr.

Kennedy was a catcher of obvious skills, and an heir apparent for a starting role as catcher - but the position was blocked by Simmons. Kennedy even got some playing time as an outfielder, which can't have been a pretty picture. Before the 1980 season was over, Whitey had already explored the idea of Simmons playing some position other than catcher - and met fierce resistance from Simmons. These days, in the pecking order of a baseball team, a superstar usually outranks a manager - but this wasn't just any manager. This was Whitey, determined to be the man in charge. Something would have to give. That might have eventually cleared a path for Kennedy, except that Whitey (for reasons that don't seem entirely rational) was determined to bring in his own man, available on the free agent market: Darrell Porter.

To understand the buzz about Durham, you have to understand that it was a long-standing lament of the fans that the Cardinal farm system never produced power hitters. Each new hope who might be that elusive home-grown slugger was hyped to the skies. At one point the hype had focused on Hector Cruz; now the spotlight was on Durham. From what I can tell, Whitey's thinking went along these lines: (a) he wasn't going to take Hernandez's job at 1B, and (b) he wasn't fast enough to be Whitey's kind of outfielder. That made him dispensable.

But Herr, a fast, basestealing middle infielder, was Whitey's kind of player, and he wanted him in the lineup.

The whirlwind began in December 1980. The Cardinals' most obvious need was for relief pitching, and two big names were both available: Rollie Fingers from the Padres and Bruce Sutter from the Cubs. (Sutter had just won one of the first ever salary arbitration cases, and the Cubs were up in arms about it and wanted him gone. The actual salary amounts in question were laughably small by today's standards.) Whitey went after both of them.

On Dec. 7, he signed Darrell Porter as a free agent - an action which clearly exacerbated the already hot Herzog/Simmons tensions.

On Dec. 8, he landed Fingers, for the now superfluous Kennedy and a bag of spare parts, and got Gene Tenace thown in to be a backup catcher/PH.

On Dec. 9, he landed Sutter, for Leon Durham and Ken Reitz. The one thing I do assume about Whitey is that he saw through the hype around Reitz and understood that he was never that good. This move let him move Ken Oberkfell from second to third and put Herr into the regular lineup.

But now, there were several pressing problems. He had both Fingers and Sutter - was the bullpen big enough for both of them (and their expectations and egos?) He may very well have been pursuing both deals not expecting both of them to go through. And he'd traded away a "crown jewel" of the farm system in Durham - if just for the sake of P.R., it would be nice to get someone with such buzz back. And he'd undermined Simmons enough that Simmons had to go. All of this led to the blockbuster:

On Dec. 12, he traded Simmons, Fingers, and a pretty good starting pitcher (Pete Vuckovich) to the Brewers for Sixto Lezcano, David Green, Larry Sorenson, and Dave La Point.

For the Cardinals, Green may have been the key party to the trade: a 20-year-old (or so he said) outfielder with all the tools, to replace Durham as the "crown jewel" prospect.

In the long run, you have to grade the Cardinal/Brewer trade as a net talent loss for the Cardinals and a net gain for the Brewers - even though Sorenson and La Point were useful pitchers, and all of Lezcano, Sorenson, and La Point proved to be useful trade bait eventually. Green never lived up to the hype. Probably the biggest thing Whitey got out of it was that after that point, he was, for better or worse, indisputably in charge.

The Cardinals played quite well in 1981, with the best record in the division. They didn't win either half of the stike-split season, but the team was solid. There was still a piece or two missing. You've heard about challenge trades: trade A for A, same position for same postition. Whitey's best moves were what I call "shuffle" trades: trade A for B and then turn right around and trade B for A. He pulled of a doozy of a shuffle in 1981, in the categories of CF and SP. The first move of the shuffle came in June: Tony Scott for Joaquin Andujar. Andujar was a talented, inconsistent, tempermental pitcher who wasn't reacting well to the way the Astros managed him. Scott was an established major league CF - fast, slick, often among the league leaders in SB. The only problem with Scott was that he couldn't actually hit. So Scott for Andujar, and Andujar to the starting rotation, instead of the yo-yo treatment he was getting in Houston. (Trading a guy who couldn't actually hit into the Astrodome worked about as well as you'd expect.) The other sided of the shuffle came in October: an "established" starting pitcher named Bob Sykes (who hadn't had an ERA+ above 80 in three years) to the Yankees for a young minor league CF named Willie McGee. There may have been a roster screwup involved, but in any case, it's hard to see McGee as having any future with that generation of Yankees - he wasn't Steinbrenner's kind of player.

Two more moves, one triggered by opportunity (and the still-unsettled Cardinal outfield), the other forced by behavior. Lonnie Smith clearly had hitting talent, and clearly wasn't a CF, and the Phillies didn't know what to do with him. He was Lou Brock, circa 1964, only with much better hitting on his resume at that point. Whitey engineered a three-way deal with Cleveland, giving up Larry Sorenson and getting Smith.

The other deal was the one forced by behavior - in particular, the behavior of Garry Templeton. Templeton had rather famously flipped off the fans by the dugout in a game, and there were other issues. The resulting deal was essentially a challenge trade of SS, to San Diego for a good-glove, no-stick player named Ozzie Smith, and the Cardinals had to throw in extra value (Lezcano.) The sentiment among fans: we understand that Templeton had to go, but man, we took a talent beating there. (Meaning that we didn't have any idea how good Ozzie was, even in San Diego.)

So the net result: no more Simmons, no more Templeton. A lot of (admittedly fungible) pitchers shipped out - Whitey was confident that he could take nothing-special pitching talent, get them to throw strikes, back them with a good defense, and get results. Porter at C, Herr at 2B, Ozzie at short, Oberkfell at 3B, Lonnie in LF batting leadoff, McGee in CF, Andujar as a headliner in the rotation, Sutter in the pen - this was now Whitey's team. And what will the 1982 season bring?
   97. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 26, 2006 at 07:25 PM (#2113465)
And what will the 1982 season bring?

A long, hot summer for Met fans. :-(
   98. Dizzypaco Posted: July 26, 2006 at 07:35 PM (#2113498)
John,

How can you say that? The Mets just aquired one of the best power hitters in baseball - George Foster. Foster and Kingman will combine for 80 dingers, Hubie Brooks will hit .300, and the Mets will be one of the surprise teams in the NL!

As I remember saying in the spring of 1982...
   99. sunnyday2 Posted: July 26, 2006 at 07:38 PM (#2113518)
A buddy of mine played for Whitey, Billy Martin and Tony LaRussa among others (including Ted Williams), and always said Whitey was far and away the best manager he ever played for.
   100. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 26, 2006 at 07:38 PM (#2113519)
As I remember saying in the spring of 1982...

:-)

Yeah, I was pumped up about their chances back then. But the first national Baseball Abstract put things in perspective for me fairly quickly...
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