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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, August 07, 2006

1982 Results: Bad Henry and Robby Are the Newest Hall of Merit Right Fielders!

In his first year of eligibility, legendary slugger Hank Aaron became the Hall of Merit’s twelfth unanimous selection (in chronological order, the others were Cy Young, Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Lefty Grove, Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Mickey Mantle, and Willie Mays). He also becomes the new record holder for points with 1,344, eclipsing by ten the 1934 record held by Ty Cobb for almost 50 “years” (both 1934 and now 1982 share the record for most voters with 56). 

Triple crown winner Frank Robinson, another new candidate,  becomes one of only 17 HoM inductees to find himself unanimously placed in an “elect me” spot with his 96% of all possible points.

Chicago Cubs star Billy Williams had a very strong showing in also his first time on the ballot with 53% of all possible points. He looks poised for eventual induction fairly soon, possibly in ‘83.

Rounding out the top-ten were: José Méndez, Bill Freehan (strong newbie showing), Joe Sewell, Ralph Kiner, Billy Pierce, Minnie Minoso (a little bit of a fall from ‘81), and Rube Waddell.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Hank Aaron              1344   56  56                                          
 2  n/e  Frank Robinson          1288   56     56                                       
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3  n/e  Billy Williams           719   48        22  6  3  1  3  2  2     1  2     2  4
 4    3  José Méndez              422   30         5  7  2  4     2  3  1     1  4  1   
 5  n/e  Bill Freehan             373   29            5  2  3  6  1     5  2  1  2  2   
 6    4  Joe Sewell               356   27         2  2  4  2  4  2  3  2  3     2     1
 7    6  Ralph Kiner              323   27         2  3  1  2     4  6     1     3  2  3
 8    7  Billy Pierce             310   26            2  2  3  2  3  3  2  1  3  3  1  1
 9    5  Minnie Minoso            308   27            1  3  3  1  3  2  3  1  4  2  2  2
10   11  Rube Waddell             291   24            2  4  3  2  1  1  3  1  2  1  2  2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11    9  Cupid Childs             279   23            1  5  3  2  1  1  2  2  1     3  2
12   10  Hugh Duffy               254   21         2  1  1  2  4     1  3  2     1  2  2
13   14  Dobie Moore              247   22         2  1  1  1  4  1  1  2     1  1  1  6
14   12  Jake Beckley             247   20         3  2  1  3  1        2  1  2  1  2  2
15    8  Cannonball Dick Redding  241   19         2  1  2     3  3  2  1  1  1     3   
16   13  Ken Boyer                239   22            1  1  1  3  3  1  1  2  2  2  3  2
17   15  Nellie Fox               225   18         1  1  4     1  2     1  4  3  1      
18   17  Charley Jones            210   15         1  3  1  2  2  1  3  1           1   
19   16  George Van Haltren       200   18         1  2     2        1  2  3  2  3     2
20   18  Charlie Keller           192   16         4        1        3  1  1  3  1  1  1
21   24  Bob Johnson              174   15            2  1  1     2  1  2     2  3  1   
22   21  Quincy Trouppe           172   15               1  1  1  4  2     3     1  1  1
23   19  Bucky Walters            167   16            1  2     1     1  1  2  2  2  3  1
24   22  Pete Browning            164   12            3  3  1     1  1     1  1        1
25   20  Edd Roush                156   13         1  1  1  1        1  3  2  2     1   
26   26  Mickey Welch             149   11         3  1        2  1     1  1  1     1   
27   23  Gavy Cravath             147   13            1  2     1  1  2     2        3  1
28   28  Orlando Cepeda           135   13                  1  2  1  1  1  1  2  2     2
29   25  Tommy Leach              132   12            1  1     3  1  1           1     4
30   27  Roger Bresnahan          130   12         2        1     1  1  1  1        3  2
31   29  Norm Cash                130   11                  2  1  3     1  2  1     1   
32   30  Burleigh Grimes          111    9            1  1  1  1  1        1  2  1      
33   32T Bob Elliott               86    9                     1  1     2     1  2     2
34   35  Larry Doyle               83    6         1     1  2        1              1   
35   32T Alejandro Oms             82    7         1              1  2  1        2      
36   34  Wally Schang              68    6         1        1           1     1  1  1   
37   31  Dizzy Dean                67    6               1        1  1     1  1     1   
38   40  Tommy Bridges             64    8                                    3  3  1  1
39   36  John McGraw               58    4            2           1     1               
40   37  Pie Traynor               57    5            1           2              1     1
41   38  Vic Willis                50    6                     1           1        2  2
42   39  Ben Taylor                50    4                  1     1  1     1            
43   43  Jimmy Ryan                46    5                           1  1  1        1  1
44   42  Phil Rizzuto              41    4                  1              1     2      
45   48  Bill Monroe               39    4               1                    1     2   
46T  44  Ernie Lombardi            37    3               1              1  1            
46T  52  Dizzy Trout               37    3                     1  1        1            
48   50T Ed Williamson             36    4                           1        1  1  1   
49   59  Vern Stephens             35    4                           1  1              2
50T  45  Rabbit Maranville         35    3            1              1                 1
50T  41  Carl Mays                 35    3                        1  1     1            
52T  54T Addie Joss                34    3                  1              1  1         
52T  47  Sam Rice                  34    3                        1     1  1            
54T  53  Lefty Gomez               31    3                     1              1  1      
54T  54T Dutch Leonard             31    3                  1                 1     1   
56   50T Luis Aparicio             30    3                           1  1           1   
57   56  Chuck Klein               30    2                  2                           
58   46  Frank Howard              27    3                              1        2      
59   61  Ed Cicotte                24    2                     1           1            
60   49  Elston Howard             23    3                                    1  1     1
61   60  Frank Chance              23    2               1                          1   
62   57  Al Rosen                  21    2                           1        1         
63   58  Dave Bancroft             19    2                        1                    1
64   63  Tony Mullane              17    2                              1              1
65T n/e  Willie Davis              16    1               1                              
65T  65  Fielder Jones             16    1               1                              
67T  70T Artie Wilson              15    1                  1                           
67T  67T Jack Quinn                15    1                  1                           
69   69  Urban Shocker             14    1                     1                        
70T  74  Fred Dunlap               11    1                              1               
70T  70T Sam Leever                11    1                              1               
72T  66  Wilbur Cooper             10    1                                 1            
72T  75T Don Newcombe              10    1                                 1            
72T  75T Bobby Veach               10    1                                 1            
75T  64  Dom DiMaggio               9    1                                    1         
75T n/e  Tony Oliva                 9    1                                    1         
77T  73  George J. Burns            8    1                                       1      
77T  78T Hack Wilson                8    1                                       1      
77T  78T Herman Long                8    1                                       1      
80   62  Gil Hodges                 7    1                                          1   
81   81  Sol White                  6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Dick Bartell(75T), Wally Berger(82), Harlond Clift(78T), Billy Nash(83T), 
Johnny Pesky(70T), Vada Pinson(67T), Cecil Travis(83T).
Ballots Cast: 56

 

 

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 07, 2006 at 01:18 AM | 43 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 08, 2006 at 12:01 AM (#2130751)
Congratulations to both Hank and Frank!

HOF-not-HOM through 1982
 
1. Bancroft
Dave
2. Beckley
Jake
3  Bender
Chief
4  Bottomley
Jim
5  Bresnahan
Roger
6  Chance
Frank
7  Chesbro
Jack
8  Combs
Earle
9  Cuyler
Kiki
10 Dean
Dizzy
11 Duffy
Hugh
12 Evers
Johnny
13 Gomez
Lefty
14 Grimes
Burleigh
15 Hafey
Chick
16 Haines
Jesse
17 Hooper
Harry
18 Hoyt
Waite
19 Jackson
Travis
20 Johnson
Judy
21 Joss
Addie
22 Kelly
George
23 Kiner
Ralph
24 Klein
Chuck
25 Lindstrom
Freddie
26 Manush
Heinie
27 Maranville
Rabbit
28 Marquard
Rube
29 McCarthy
Tommy
30 McGraw
John 
31 Pennock
Herb
32 Rice
Sam
33 Roush
Edd
34 Schalk
Ray
35 Sewell
Joe
36 Tinker
Joe
37 Traynor
Pie
38 Waddell
Rube
39 Waner
Lloyd
40 Welch
Mickey
41 Wilson
Hack
42 Youngs
Ross
 
HOM
-not-HOF
 
1  Ashburn
Richie
2  Barnes
Ross
3  Beckwith
John
4  Bennett
Charlie
5  Brown
Ray
6  Brown
Willard
7  Bunning
Jim
8  Caruthers
Bob
9  Dahlen
Bill
10 Davis
George
11 Doby
Larry
12 Doerr
Bobby
13 Drysdale
Don
14 Ferrell
Wes
15 Foster
Willie 
16 Glasscock
Jack
17 Gordon
Joe
18 Gore
George
19 Grant
Frank
20 Groh
Heinie
21 Hack
Stan
22 Hill
Pete
23 Hines
Paul
24 Jackson
Joe*
25 JohnsonHome Run
26 Killebrew
Harmon
27 Mackey
Biz
28 Magee
Sherry
29 Marichal
Juan
30 McPhee
Bid
31 McVey
Cal
32 Newhouser
Hal
33 Pearce
Dickey
34 Pike
Lip
35 Richardson
Hardy
36 Reese
Pee Wee
37 Rogan
Bullet Joe
38 Santo
Ron
39 Santop
Louis
40 Sheckard
Jimmy
41 Slaughter
Enos
42 Start
Joe
43 Stearnes
Turkey
44 Stovey
Harry
45 Suttles
Mule
46 Sutton
Ezra
47 Torriente
Cristobal
48 Vaughan
Arky
49 Wells
Willie
50 White
Deacon
51 Wilhelm
Hoyt
52 Williams
Smokey Joe
53 Wilson
Jud
 
*  not eligible for the HOF 
   2. OCF Posted: August 08, 2006 at 12:12 AM (#2130765)
Consensus scores averaged +3.1, which is the highest they've been since 1955. Unanimity in the top two spots will do that. The highest possible score was +15, and someone came fairly close to that. There wasn't much spread below the mean.

Got Melky: +13 (2nd year voter)
Juan V: +9 (new voter)
James Newburg: +9
dan b: +7
Tiboreau: +7
Esteban Rivera: +7
Devin McCullen: +7
OCF: +6
Howie Menckel: +6
(and 10 more voters at +6, including Jim Sp)
...
Daryn: +4
sunnyday2: +4 (medians)
...
Joe Dimino: +2
...
fra paolo: 0
John Murphy: 0
Rick A: -1
David Foss: -1
mulder & scully: -1
Patrick W: -2
rico vanian: -4
kalmagnus: -5
Vaux: -5
KJOK: -5
yest: -6
   3. jimd Posted: August 08, 2006 at 12:40 AM (#2130778)
56 voters equals the record set in 1934.
   4. jimd Posted: August 08, 2006 at 01:10 AM (#2130813)
1982 BBWAA Voting for the HOF

Name Votes PCT
Hank Aaron 406 97.83
Frank Robinson 370 89.16

Juan Marichal 305 73.49
Harmon Killebrew 246 59.28
Hoyt Wilhelm 236 56.87
Don Drysdale 233 56.14
Gil Hodges 205 49.40
Luis Aparicio 174 41.93
Jim Bunning 138 33.25
Red Schoendienst 135 32.53
Nellie Fox 127 30.60
Richie Ashburn 126 30.36
Billy Williams 97 23.37
Maury Wills 91 21.93
Roger Maris 69 16.63
Tony Oliva 63 15.18
Harvey Kuenn 62 14.94
Lew Burdette 43 10.36
Orlando Cepeda 42 10.12
Elston Howard 40 9.64
Don Larsen 32 7.71
Bill Mazeroski 28 6.75
Thurman Munson 26 6.27
Roy Face 22 5.30
Vada Pinson 6 1.45
Tommy Davis 5 1.20
Dave McNally 5 1.20
Lindy McDaniel 3 0.72
Rico Petrocelli 3 0.72
Jim Brewer 2 0.48
Bill Freehan 2 0.48
Leo Cardenas 1 0.24
Claude Osteen 1 0.24

Ashburn's last year eligible for the BBWAA.
The Munson votes must be write-ins.
   5. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 08, 2006 at 01:28 AM (#2130839)
No jim - Pretty sure Munson was given early eligibility just like Roberto Clemente and Darryl Kile.

Glad to see Williams and Freehan did so well.
   6. jimd Posted: August 08, 2006 at 01:57 AM (#2130868)
I don't recall it, one way or the other. In general, I think it's a bad practice, but they did it for Clemente, so I guess they're stuck with it.
   7. sunnyday2 Posted: August 08, 2006 at 02:07 AM (#2130877)
People have forgotten what a high impact player Thurman Munson was. You don't see it in the numbers--he was a catcher, after all. When Reggie became a Yankee and said, "I'm the straw that stirs the drink," Munson was known to be pissed. On those Yankees, and these were the Yankees who came back from the wilderness of the post-Mantle, post-Ford years, Munson was the straw that stirred the drink. Jackson was just a shot of vodka (top-shelf, of course). But Munson was the guy who made it all blend together in a winning combo.

Overall I don't rate him as highly as Freehan. But at his peak, he was better than Freehan. At his peak, Thurman Munson was better than Carlton Fisk. The two went head-to-head and Munson was better. I don't know if Thurman will even get a vote. But if not, he will be one of the most underrated players in history, short career or not. He had just a tremendous impact. He was a hard-nosed son-of-a-#####. The Yankee powerhouse of today has Thurman Munson as its godfather, IMO.
   8. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 08, 2006 at 02:32 AM (#2130901)
Munson's arm had to be terrific, he threw out 45% of basestealers for his career. I never realized his defense was THAT good. 88 FRAA to Freehan's 38.

He also had 5 years between 121 and 141 in OPS+.

He's going to be a tough cookie when it comes time to evaluate him - the peak guys are going to like him a lot if they take the defense into account.
   9. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 08, 2006 at 02:40 AM (#2130908)
Even though I don't vote for them all, I can live with any of the top 11 except Minoso getting in right now. I used to be a big supporter of his, but I've fallen off the wagon, mostly because with his new birthday I don't think there's much of a case for extra credit anymore - am I wrong there?
   10. Brent Posted: August 08, 2006 at 03:52 AM (#2130972)
used to be a big supporter of his, but I've fallen off the wagon, mostly because with his new birthday I don't think there's much of a case for extra credit anymore - am I wrong there?


Yes. Even with the new birthday, his first year as a major leaguer came at age 25, putting him 3 or 4 years behind the people he was competing against. He first emerged as a star in Cuba in 1945-46, and IMO deserves major league credit starting in 1947 or '48. With that credit, he's compares favorably with the bottom rung of HoM corner outfielders.

See the Minoso thread.
   11. yest Posted: August 08, 2006 at 06:11 AM (#2131031)
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
   12. Howie Menckel Posted: August 08, 2006 at 12:16 PM (#2131084)
all-time 'votes points' thru 1982 - those still eligible in 1983 election are in CAPS

Browning climbs to 4th... Sewell claims 14th... Mendez up 2 spots to 16th.. Redding nudges Bresnahan out of top 20.

TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 21998.5
BECKLEY 21117
DUFFY 20772.5
BROWNING 17983.5
Griffith 17924
Jennings 16976
CHILDS 16275
WADDELL 15991
WELCH 14910
Sisler 13892

Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
RYAN 11609.5
SEWELL 11553
Bennett 11503
MENDEZ 10978
Rixey 10789
Caruthers 10704
TLEACH 10610
REDDING 10601

BRESNAHAN 10528
CJONES 10435
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
Mackey 8930

OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Moore 8056, Roush 7662, Doyle 6858, Monroe 6220, Cravath 6030, Kiner 5652, Grimes 5574, Williamson 5162, Schang 4954, Walters 4834, McGraw 4655)

not quite
(Minoso 4229, Oms 3797, Trouppe 3623, Joss 3231, Pierce 3204, Willis 3153, McCormick 3148X, BJohnson 3127, Chance 2792X, Tiernan 2686X)

more recent candidates
(Fox 2633, Elliott 2531, Keller 2317)
   13. Howie Menckel Posted: August 08, 2006 at 12:19 PM (#2131086)
Pitchers with at least 5 votes last 'year'

RK LY Player PTS Bal 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
4 3 José Méndez 422 30 5 7 2 4 2 3 1 1 4 1
8 7 Billy Pierce 310 26 2 2 3 2 3 3 2 1 3 3 1 1
10 11 Rube Waddell 291 24 2 4 3 2 1 1 3 1 2 1 2 2
15 8 Cannonball Dick Redding 241 19 2 1 2 3 3 2 1 1 1 3
23 19 Bucky Walters 167 16 1 2 1 1 1 2 2 2 3 1
26 26 Mickey Welch 149 11 3 1 2 1 1 1 1 1
32 30 Burleigh Grimes 111 9 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1
37 31 Dizzy Dean 67 6 1 1 1 1 1 1
38 40 Tommy Bridges 64 8 3 3 1 1
41 38 Vic Willis 50 6 1 1 2 2
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: August 08, 2006 at 12:21 PM (#2131087)
weird, that didn't come out right.

well, the "rank" is easy to read, lol.

only 4 of the top 20 returnees.
   15. Chris Cobb Posted: August 08, 2006 at 12:31 PM (#2131091)
From 1970 through 1981, 11 of 26 electees (42.3%) were pitchers, so it's not altogether surprising that pitchers are somewhat thinly represented in the backlog in 1982. OTOH, the only post-WWII whom we have added to the upper backlog is Billy Pierce. Every other candidate has either been almost immediately elected or rejected. But who have we underrated? Don Newcombe seems like the only one we have possibly overlooked, among those so far eligible.
   16. sunnyday2 Posted: August 08, 2006 at 12:58 PM (#2131112)
19C: Welch
Dead ball: Waddell, Willis
Pre-NeL: Mendez, Redding
Golden age: Grimes, Walters, Dean, Bridges
Post-war: Pierce

What, no golden age NeLers? I don't know that that's a gap, and I don't know that it isn't. The ML golden age (1920-1941) is very well represented. Too bad we can't agree on one, but it seems unlikely that anybody is voting for both Grimes and Dean--anybody?
   17. DavidFoss Posted: August 08, 2006 at 01:17 PM (#2131128)
The ML golden age (1920-1941) is very well represented. Too bad we can't agree on one, but it seems unlikely that anybody is voting for both Grimes and Dean--anybody?

This era is so extremely well-represented in the HOM that I'm surprised anyone is left in the backlog. I have become very skeptical of anyone left from this era.
   18. DL from MN Posted: August 08, 2006 at 01:37 PM (#2131150)
The people left in the backlog played during the war (Bob Johnson, Tommy Bridges, Bob Elliott, Bucky Walters..). They don't fit neatly in the pre-war and post-war buckets.
   19. Daryn Posted: August 08, 2006 at 02:00 PM (#2131170)
Too bad we can't agree on one, but it seems unlikely that anybody is voting for both Grimes and Dean--anybody?

I'm close. I have Grimes on ballot and Dean is my #1 off-ballot pitcher.
   20. Juan V Posted: August 08, 2006 at 05:20 PM (#2131441)
Somehow, I thought I´d have a lower consensus score.
   21. DanG Posted: August 08, 2006 at 09:58 PM (#2131887)
No jim - Pretty sure Munson was given early eligibility just like Roberto Clemente and Darryl Kile.

Glad to see Williams and Freehan did so well.
6. jimd Posted: August 07, 2006 at 09:57 PM (#2130868)

I don't recall it, one way or the other. In general, I think it's a bad practice, but they did it for Clemente, so I guess they're stuck with it.


Actually, Clemente was elected in a special BBWAA poll, like Gehrig before him. After that, they came up with the death rule, granting eligibility in the first election after you've been gone for six months. Munson is the only prominent candidate to date given this early eligibility.
   22. JPWF13 Posted: August 08, 2006 at 10:09 PM (#2131896)
Munson's arm had to be terrific, he threw out 45% of basestealers for his career. I never realized his defense was THAT good. 88 FRAA to Freehan's 38.


No it wasn't, he had a quick release and was reasonably accurate- and had pitchers who knew how to hold runners- his arm strength was mediocre to below average- lots of guys who'd never dream of running against a stronger armed cather would run on him- and get caught.

That's a net positive for the team of course- but the perception that he had a strong arm is completely false.

During the 70s he certainly was not regarded as a terrific defensive catcher- certainly not as good as Bench or Fisk.


Fisk had 4 season where his OPS+ was greater than Munson's career high of 141, he had an additional 4 seasons where his OPS+ was greater than Munson's second best mark of 128- at his best Munson clearly was not as good as Fisk at his best- at his peak he was rough match for Freehan at his- FRAA is wonky on catchers especially on Munson- isaw him play- a lot he was not a superstar defensive catcher.
   23. sunnyday2 Posted: August 08, 2006 at 11:00 PM (#2131942)
"Munson's arm (was) terrific" is not the same as "Munson had a strong arm." Having a terrific arm could mean that he had a quick release.

I didn't say I would rate Munson ahead of Fisk if they were on the HoM ballot at the same time. What I said was that while both were active, Munson was cumulatively better and peakedly better. AFter Munson was gone, Fisk enhanced his peak and obviously accumed a ton of career. But during that time when they both walked the earth, Munson was more valuable.
   24. Chris Fluit Posted: August 09, 2006 at 04:37 AM (#2133042)
Considering the way that he jumps around the results table, Dick Redding's new nickname should be Yo-Yo rather than Cannonball.
   25. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 09, 2006 at 01:25 PM (#2133160)
"During the 70s he certainly was not regarded as a terrific defensive catcher- certainly not as good as Bench or Fisk."


Uh, Munson won Gold Gloves in 1973, 74 and 75. Fisk won one in 1972.

Fisk was hurt in 1974 and 1975, but seems awfully hard to believe they thought Fisk was so much better when Munson unseated him for a Gold Glove when both were healthy.

As sunnyday mentioned, when I said, he had a great arm, I mean the whole package, whatever it was release, arm strength - something has to be pretty good to throw out 45%.

"Fisk had 4 season where his OPS+ was greater than Munson's career high of 141, he had an additional 4 seasons where his OPS+ was greater than Munson's second best mark of 128-"


You do realize 3 of those 4 years where Fisk beat 141 were in seasons where he had 200-300 PA, right? And a couple of those years in the 130s were when he was old and catching 75-80 games a year, right? It's not the same thing.

Fisk was 117 for his career, Munson 116 (in a much shorter career I realize), I think they are a helluva lot closer in peak terms than you are suggesting.
   26. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 09, 2006 at 01:27 PM (#2133164)
"Munson is the only prominent candidate to date given this early eligibility."

Pretty sure Darryl Kile got it too.
   27. DanG Posted: August 09, 2006 at 01:52 PM (#2133185)
The key word here is "prominent". Thurman stayed on the ballot for the maximum 15 years; Kile was one and done.
   28. Chris Fluit Posted: August 09, 2006 at 03:37 PM (#2133331)
Wasn't Clemente given early eligibility as well?
   29. DanG Posted: August 09, 2006 at 05:09 PM (#2133479)
Wasn't Clemente given early eligibility as well?

See post #21, above.
   30. Chris Fluit Posted: August 09, 2006 at 05:41 PM (#2133518)
Ah. Thanks.
   31. Evan Posted: August 09, 2006 at 05:55 PM (#2133534)
New version of the ballot counter posted to the Yahoo group. Incredible thanks to OCF - now including consensus scores! As always, comments/feature requests welcome.

Consensus score calculation will not work correctly unless are ballots on the sheet are fully filled in - do not include partial ballots if you intend to calculate scores.
   32. Paul Wendt Posted: August 09, 2006 at 06:12 PM (#2133556)
> Dick Redding's new nickname should be Yo-Yo rather than Cannonball.

Why not Dick?

--
My recollection matches sunnyday's, Munson was essentially the catcher who can really hit. (He hit .300 five times, Fisk once, Bench none, in full seasons.)

Jim Sundberg was considered a great fielding catcher, and Bench in that other league.

Jerry Grote twice went to the World Series with low batting averages, and to that I write off the recollection that he was considered a great catcher too.
   33. JPWF13 Posted: August 09, 2006 at 07:20 PM (#2133615)
Uh, Munson won Gold Gloves in 1973, 74 and 75. Fisk won one in 1972.

Fisk was hurt in 1974 and 1975, but seems awfully hard to believe they thought Fisk was so much better when Munson unseated him for a Gold Glove when both were healthy.


You're right- brain fart- I was the first and last person to ever confuse Fisk with Sundberg

to me when someone says a catcher has a terrific arm it means the same when they say a pitcher or OF has a terrific arm- he can throw hard-
Munson couldn't- but he was accurate and got rid of the ball as quickly (or more quickly) as anyone. You could say he was good at throwing out runners (he certainly was)- but he did not have a terrific "arm".

Lance Parrish on the otherhand had a terrific arm- but wasn't as good a thrower- took too long to get out of the crouch and throw...
   34. Mark Donelson Posted: August 09, 2006 at 07:32 PM (#2133635)
to me when someone says a catcher has a terrific arm it means the same when they say a pitcher or OF has a terrific arm- he can throw hard-
Munson couldn't- but he was accurate and got rid of the ball as quickly (or more quickly) as anyone. You could say he was good at throwing out runners (he certainly was)- but he did not have a terrific "arm".


Does it matter, in the end? Isn't throwing guys out the important thing, no matter how you do it?
   35. sunnyday2 Posted: August 09, 2006 at 08:14 PM (#2133702)
>Why not Dick?

I laughed almost as hard on that one as on Boog Alou!
   36. sunnyday2 Posted: August 09, 2006 at 08:16 PM (#2133705)
>My recollection matches sunnyday's

Okay, well, then, we better double check this one ;-)
   37. jimd Posted: August 09, 2006 at 08:48 PM (#2133765)
My recollection matches sunnyday's, Munson was essentially the catcher who can really hit.

Munson was just past 32 at the time of his death. Fisk was 6+ months younger and so reached the same age during the 1979-1980 offseason. Comparing their careers at that point (thru 1979):

Fielding:
Munson: 107 WARP rating in 1241.1 AdjG
--Fisk--: 106 WARP rating in 845.8 AdjG

Batting:
Munson: 116 OPS+ in 5903 PA
--Fisk--: 128 OPS+ in 3823 PA

Fisk was clearly the better hitter (more power and walks).
The two appear to be close in fielding, edge to Munson.
Fisk's later start and injuries had significantly reduced his playing time (and wear and tear).

Fisk would then add another 1224.1 AdjG and 6030 PA.
   38. Paul Wendt Posted: August 09, 2006 at 08:55 PM (#2133778)
> Fisk was clearly the better hitter (more power and walks).

But Munson was famous as the catcher who could hit, because he batted .300 "every year" (4 in 5).
Just like Brian Harper.
   39. jimd Posted: August 09, 2006 at 09:05 PM (#2133801)
I consider BP's "Translated Batting Statistics" to be a toy (fun toy though).
I don't know the context is that they translate them to, but Fisk has 504 career HRs. To give some context, Bench has 528, Berra 497, and Piazza 470 (Josh Gibson doesn't have a page). Bonds has 849 and has only 222 more to go to catch the Babe (don't know for sure but Ruth's 78 in 1927 may still be the record).
   40. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 10, 2006 at 02:25 PM (#2135155)
Yeah, I agree on the toy aspect Jim. But they really need to recalibrate it - I mean the average hitter hits 19 HR in 650 PA. Unless they are translating them to 2000 as the goal - I mean Ken Griffey Jr. has 100 more translated HR than actual HR. What context are they shooting for, Coors Field?

To me it would be much more fun as a toy if they set the average to be something along the lines of all-time average.

***********

All good on the 'arm' thing JWP - I definitely appreciate the recollections of people who actually saw these guys play. Those of us that have only the record to go by have to guess on things like 'arm' as opposed to breaking it down by release, quickness and arm strength. Anything that gives us a better feel for the type of player is great!
   41. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 10, 2006 at 02:27 PM (#2135159)
Also a riot that Bonds has more translated HR than actual - like his era, wasn't offense friendly enough . . . and yes, I know that from 1988-92 there was a mini pitchers' era at the beginning of Bonds' career. But still.
   42. Paul Wendt Posted: August 11, 2006 at 01:40 PM (#2137016)
maybe they did set the baseline at all-time average
where you would prefer the baseline set when you arrived?
   43. Paul Wendt Posted: August 11, 2006 at 01:43 PM (#2137019)
What is the history of "Bad Henry"?
Why, how common, what happened?
Was he fetid before he was feted?

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