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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, August 21, 2006

1983 Results: Allen and Williams Lead the Pack For the Latest Hall of Merit Class!

In his first year of eligibility, controversial slugger Dick Allen claimed the top spot for HoM induction with 69% of all possible points.

Cub left fielder Billy Williams wasn’t far behind as he became the other inductee this “year” with 66% of all possible points in only his second year of eligibility.

Legendary third baseman Brooks Robinson barely missed induction with his 63% of all possible points in his first year on the ballot. He almost certainly will be elected in 1984.

Another newbie,  Brave and Cardinal star Joe Torre, has to be considered the favorite to win the second spot in ‘84 with his strong fourth-place showing.

Rounding out the top-ten were: José Méndez, Bill Freehan, Joe Sewell, Ralph Kiner, Rube Waddell, and Minnie Minoso.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Dick Allen               909   50  15  5  7  3  6  3  2  1  2        4  1  1   
 2    3  Billy Williams           868   47  17  6  7  1  3  1  2     2  1  1  1  1  2  2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3  n/e  Brooks Robinson          833   48   6 13  3  4  3  4     2  3  4  3     3      
 4  n/e  Joe Torre                670   43   3  7  5  5  3  3  1  2  4  2  1  1  1  2  3
 5    4  José Méndez              435   30   1  3  3  2  5  2  3  1  2     2  2  1  1  2
 6    5  Bill Freehan             390   29   1     3     4  4  4  1  2  3  4  1     1  1
 7    6  Joe Sewell               354   26   1  1  2  3  3  1  3  1  3  1     3  1  2  1
 8    7  Ralph Kiner              334   23   2  2  2  2  1  1  2  2  2  2     1  2  2   
 9   10  Rube Waddell             325   24      2  4  2  3        2  1  2  3     2  1  2
10    9  Minnie Minoso            299   27         1  2  3     1  3  1  4  2  1  2  3  4
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11    8  Billy Pierce             282   23      1     1  2  2     4  4  2     4  2     1
12   11  Cupid Childs             273   22            5  1  3     2  2  4        1  1  3
13   14  Jake Beckley             264   19   2  1     2  2  2  1  1  1  1  1  2     1  2
14   12  Hugh Duffy               244   20   1     1     1  2  4  1  1  2  2     1  1  3
15   13  Dobie Moore              243   17   1  2     2  2     4        2     1     2  1
16   15  Cannonball Dick Redding  234   18      1  2  1     3  2  1  1  1     2  3  1   
17   17  Nellie Fox               220   18         3  1  1     3  1     1  2  1  3  2   
18   18  Charley Jones            210   14   1  1  1  1  4        1  3           1  1   
19  n/e  Jimmy Wynn               204   19            1     1  1  4  2  1  3  1     2  3
20   16  Ken Boyer                203   19                  2  1  2  3  2  3  1  3     2
21   20  Charlie Keller           193   13   3  1     1     1     1  1  1  1        2  1
22   19  George Van Haltren       177   16         1  1  2  1  1           1  4  1  3  1
23   24  Pete Browning            174   11      1  3  2     2     1     1     1         
24   22  Quincy Trouppe           171   14            1     2  2  3     1  3  1     1   
25   21  Bob Johnson              166   15      1        1  2     2  1     1     1  5  1
26   26  Mickey Welch             157   10   1  2  1        2     1  1              2   
27   23  Bucky Walters            142   14         1        1  1  1  1  1  1  2     1  4
28   25  Edd Roush                137   12            2        1  1  2  1     3  1     1
29   27  Gavy Cravath             137   11         2  1     1  1  1        2     1  2   
30   32  Burleigh Grimes          121   10         1  1     1  1     2     1     2  1   
31   31  Norm Cash                114   10            1        2  1     2  1  1  1  1   
32   30  Roger Bresnahan          108    9      1     1        1     1  1  1     1  1  1
33   35  Alejandro Oms             94    8      1           1  1           2  1     1  1
34   29  Tommy Leach               93    8                  1  1  2  1     1  1     1   
35   34  Larry Doyle               85    6      1        1  1  1        1              1
36   28  Orlando Cepeda            82    8                  1     1     1  2     2  1   
37   37  Dizzy Dean                63    5            1        1  1        1  1         
38   39  John McGraw               61    4         2           1        1               
39   40  Pie Traynor               55    4      1                 1  1              1   
40   36  Wally Schang              54    5      1                             1  2     1
41   33  Bob Elliott               52    6                        1        1     2  1  1
42   42  Ben Taylor                49    4                     2  1              1      
43   38  Tommy Bridges             48    6                                    2  3     1
44   57  Chuck Klein               45    3            1     1     1                     
45   43  Jimmy Ryan                43    5                           1     1  1        2
46   52T Addie Joss                43    4            1                 1     1        1
47   44  Phil Rizzuto              40    4                     1              2  1      
48   46T Ernie Lombardi            39    3               1        1        1            
49   41  Vic Willis                38    4                  1                 1  1     1
50   48  Ed Williamson             36    4                        1           1     2   
51   52T Sam Rice                  36    3                     1        2               
52   49  Vern Stephens             32    4                                 2           2
53   50T Carl Mays                 32    3                           1  1     1         
54T  54T Lefty Gomez               31    3                  1                    2      
54T  46T Dizzy Trout               31    3                           1  1        1      
56   62  Al Rosen                  29    3                     1              1        1
57   45  Bill Monroe               27    3                              1  1           1
58   50T Rabbit Maranville         27    2            1                    1            
59   59  Ed Cicotte                26    2               1                 1            
60   54T Dutch Leonard             24    2                        1     1               
61   60  Elston Howard             22    3                                    1     1  1
62   58  Frank Howard              21    2                              1  1            
63   63  Dave Bancroft             19    2                           1              1   
64   56  Luis Aparicio             18    2                           1                 1
65T  61  Frank Chance              17    1            1                                 
65T  65T Fielder Jones             17    1            1                                 
67T  67T Artie Wilson              16    1               1                              
67T  75T Tony Oliva                16    1               1                              
69   67T Jack Quinn                15    1                  1                           
70   69  Urban Shocker             14    1                     1                        
71   70T Sam Leever                11    1                              1               
72   64  Tony Mullane              10    1                                 1            
73T  72T Wilbur Cooper              9    1                                    1         
73T  70T Fred Dunlap                9    1                                    1         
75T  77T George J. Burns            8    1                                       1      
75T  77T Hack Wilson                8    1                                       1      
75T  72T Don Newcombe               8    1                                       1      
75T  72T Bobby Veach                8    1                                       1      
79   80  Gil Hodges                 7    1                                          1   
80   77T Herman Long                6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Willie Davis(65T), Dom DiMaggio(75T), Sol White(81).
Ballots Cast: 55

 

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2006 at 02:24 AM | 56 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 22, 2006 at 12:05 AM (#2151089)
Congrats to Dick and Billy!

Both candidates kept battling for the top spot all week, while Robinson was close to being elected himself until the end.
   2. jimd Posted: August 22, 2006 at 12:13 AM (#2151102)
Note: Billy Williams is not "n/e" but was 3rd last time.
   3. OCF Posted: August 22, 2006 at 12:14 AM (#2151104)
Consensus scores 1983

Average consensus score -5.5, best possible +13. There's a wider individual spread than we've seen for a while - there was, more or less, a consensus (lots of new candidates at the top of the ballot) but a number of voters who didn't go along with that.

Got Melky: +8
Devin McCullen: +6
Chris Cobb: +3
DL from MN: +3
AJM: +3
Thane of Bagarth: +2
Brent: +2
Pedro Feliz N: +2
Mike Webber: +2
OCF: +2
...
Patrick W: -4 (median)
...
John Murphy: -4
...
Joe Dimino: -6
...
fra paolo: -12
rawagman: -12
Jeff M: -13
Max Parkinson: -15
Mark Donelson: -16
Rick A: -18
rico vanian: -18
mulder & scully: -18
karlmagnus: -20
KJOK: -21
yest: -28
Vaux: -28
   4. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 22, 2006 at 12:16 AM (#2151106)
HOF-not-HOM through 1983
 
1. Bancroft
Dave
2. Beckley
Jake
3  Bender
Chief
4  Bottomley
Jim
5  Bresnahan
Roger
6  Chance
Frank
7  Chesbro
Jack
8  Combs
Earle
9  Cuyler
Kiki
10 Dean
Dizzy
11 Duffy
Hugh
12 Evers
Johnny
13 Gomez
Lefty
14 Grimes
Burleigh
15 Hafey
Chick
16 Haines
Jesse
17 Hooper
Harry
18 Hoyt
Waite
19 Jackson
Travis
20 Johnson
Judy
21 Joss
Addie
22 Kell
George
23 Kelly
George
24 Kiner
Ralph
25 Klein
Chuck
26 Lindstrom
Freddie
27 Manush
Heinie
28 Maranville
Rabbit
29 Marquard
Rube
30 McCarthy
Tommy
31 McGraw
John 
32 Pennock
Herb
33 Rice
Sam
34 Robinson
Brooks
35 Roush
Edd
36 Schalk
Ray
37 Sewell
Joe
38 Tinker
Joe
39 Traynor
Pie
40 Waddell
Rube
41 Waner
Lloyd
42 Welch
Mickey
43 Wilson
Hack
44 Youngs
Ross
 
HOM
-not-HOF
 
1  Allen
Dick 
2  Ashburn
Richie
3  Barnes
Ross
4  Beckwith
John
5  Bennett
Charlie
6  Brown
Ray
7  Brown
Willard
8  Bunning
Jim
9  Caruthers
Bob
10 Dahlen
Bill
11 Davis
George
12 Doby
Larry
13 Doerr
Bobby
14 Drysdale
Don
15 Ferrell
Wes
16 Foster
Willie 
17 Glasscock
Jack
18 Gordon
Joe
19 Gore
George
20 Grant
Frank
21 Groh
Heinie
22 Hack
Stan
23 Hill
Pete
24 Hines
Paul
25 Jackson
Joe*
26 JohnsonHome Run
27 Killebrew
Harmon
28 Mackey
Biz
29 Magee
Sherry
30 McPhee
Bid
31 McVey
Cal
32 Newhouser
Hal
33 Pearce
Dickey
34 Pike
Lip
35 Richardson
Hardy
36 Reese
Pee Wee
37 Rogan
Bullet Joe
38 Santo
Ron
39 Santop
Louis
40 Sheckard
Jimmy
41 Slaughter
Enos
42 Start
Joe
43 Stearnes
Turkey
44 Stovey
Harry
45 Suttles
Mule
46 Sutton
Ezra
47 Torriente
Cristobal
48 Vaughan
Arky
49 Wells
Willie
50 White
Deacon
51 Wilhelm
Hoyt
52 Williams
Billy
53 Williams
Smokey Joe
54 Wilson
Jud
 
*  not eligible for the HOF 
   5. jimd Posted: August 22, 2006 at 12:16 AM (#2151108)
BBWAA Voting for 1983

Name Votes PCT
Brooks Robinson 344 91.98
Juan Marichal 313 83.69

Harmon Killebrew 269 71.93
Luis Aparicio 252 67.38
Hoyt Wilhelm 243 64.97
Don Drysdale 242 64.71
Gil Hodges 237 63.37
Nellie Fox 173 46.26
Billy Williams 153 40.91
Red Schoendienst 146 39.04
Jim Bunning 138 36.90
Harvey Kuenn 77 20.59
Maury Wills 77 20.59
Tony Oliva 75 20.05
Roger Maris 69 18.45
Orlando Cepeda 59 15.78
Bill Mazeroski 48 12.83
Lew Burdette 43 11.50
Roy Face 32 8.56
Elston Howard 32 8.56
Don Larsen 22 5.88
Joe Torre 20 5.35
Thurman Munson 18 4.81
Dick Allen 14 3.74
Vada Pinson 12 3.21
Jim Perry 7 1.87
Boog Powell 5 1.34
Ray Sadecki 2 0.53
Dave Giusti 1 0.27
Tommy Helms 1 0.27
Felix Millan 1 0.27

Brooks outpoints Frank 92%-89% (FR elected last year).
Last BBWAA chance for Hodges.
   6. Howie Menckel Posted: August 22, 2006 at 12:19 AM (#2151114)
For new visitors who are just stunned, it's worth knowing that we have the number of electee slots set years in advance (in most cases 2 players - occasionally 1 in the early days of balloting, soon we'll advance to 3 players).

So there is no "pass on all candidates" option for a voter.

Now, you'll still be shocked to see Dick Allen nose out Brooks Robinson, but otherwise you'll be a little less astounded, lol.
   7. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 22, 2006 at 12:19 AM (#2151117)
Note: Billy Williams is not "n/e" but was 3rd last time.

All the candidates after Boyer are all screwed up (I fixed the other ones). I'll fix them shortly.

I used Evan's new ballot counter for this election, so something got screwed up along the way.
   8. Howie Menckel Posted: August 22, 2006 at 12:37 AM (#2151137)
all-time 'votes points' thru 1983 - those still eligible in 1984 election are in CAPS. electees not in caps.

TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 22175.5
BECKLEY 21381
DUFFY 21016.5
BROWNING 18157.5
Griffith 17924
Jennings 16976
CHILDS 16548
WADDELL 16316
WELCH 15067
Sisler 13892

Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
SEWELL 11907
RYAN 11652.5
Bennett 11503
MENDEZ 11413
REDDING 10835
Rixey 10789
Caruthers 10704
TLEACH 10703

CJONES 10645
BRESNAHAN 10636
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
Mackey 8930

OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Moore 8299, Roush 7799, Doyle 6943, Monroe 6247, Cravath 6167, Kiner 5986, Grimes 5695, Williamson 5198, Schang 5008, Walters 4976, McGraw 4716)

not quite
(Minoso 4528, Oms 3891, Trouppe 3794, Pierce 3486, Joss 3274, BJohnson 3293, Willis 3191, McCormick 3148X, Fox 2853, Chance 2792X, Tiernan 2686X)

more recent candidates
(Elliott 2583, Keller 2510)
   9. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 22, 2006 at 12:44 AM (#2151154)
All rankings from last year have been fixed above.
   10. yest Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:00 AM (#2151185)
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Brooks Robinson, Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
   11. DanG Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:33 AM (#2151356)
The 1983 ballot was the strongest since 1975. That was the last ballot having more than three current HoMers. In fact, it had five:
RK  Player                   PTS
 1  Don Drysdale             659
 2  Biz Mackey               425
 3  Willard Brown            424
 4  George Sisler            418
 5  Joe Gordon               413 
   12. sunnyday2 Posted: August 22, 2006 at 02:36 AM (#2151362)
I tabulated 16-20 placements on the theory that they will be moving on to people's ballots over the next 5 years. Just assuming all of these in fact do move up to 11-15 at some point, here is how many more points each player stands to get.

(A very imprecise measure, to be sure, though there's lots of data. 41 voters listed one or more (up to 5) players in the 16-20 spots. Ten of those were partials, however--that is, they listed 1 through 4 but not all 5, typically when a "required disclosure" was stated to be in the 16-20 spots. Others were "estimated," as when a ballot listed players who had dropped off without assigning a number, or etc.)

Anyway:

1. Wynn 84
2. (tie) Kiner 77
Minoso 77
4. Pierce 59
5. Cravath 56
6. (tie) Childs 51
Sewell 51
8. (tie) Browning 48
F. Howard 48
10. E. Howard 47
11. (tie) Cepeda 46
D. Moore 46
13. Trouppe 42
14. (tie) Boyer 40
Torre 40

Or, to look at it another way, here are the current top 10 with their added take:

3. B. Robinson 839
4. Torre 710
5. Mendez 474
6. Freehan 425
7. Sewell 405
8. Kiner 411--possible change here
9. Waddell 349
10. Minoso 376--another possible (perhaps likely) change

11. Pierce 341--could challenge Waddell depending on who votes and minor changes
12. Childs 324
13. Beckley 291
14. Duffy 261
15. D. Moore 289--possible change here
16. Redding 264--and here
17. Fox 242--not here
18. C. Jones 226
19. J. Wynn 288--very likely move up here
20. K. Boyer 243--possible change here, but will it matter

Interesting match-ups:

Kiner (bat) versus Sewell (glove), both fairly short careers
Waddell versus Pierce, dead ball versus lively
Beckley (career) versus Dobie Moore (peak) versus Jim Wynn, old-time.pre-integration ML versus NeL versus expansion era/post-integration ML, all with some defense to go with good offense
Ken Boyer versus Nellie Fox, rough contemporaries with very different mix of bat and glove, and AL versus NL, but these guys may not matter in the end

The top 10 are likely to get elected, as many as 7-8 in the next 3 years (after '84 [aka '83 the sequel]). How deep will we get into the second ten???? From that standpoint, Waddell versus Pierce is the most interesting match-up of all.
   13. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:10 AM (#2151426)
I knew my ballot revision was going to up my consensus score. But I'm pretty sure more changes are coming, so who knows?

For yest, and anyone else interested, I just posted an updated version of my at-bats file. I added graphs showing the number of players in each league for every year, and the number of "regular players", which really means regular or semi-regular position players. I set the boundary at 200 ABs for now. I was looking for stuff I could do quickly.

Obviously, this doesn't include Negro Leaguers, and there may be a few short missing years for people who had no at-bats. (I checked a few recent pitchers, and found 1 for Wilhelm and 1 for Marichal, but it counts them when I put in a zero.) Also, if someone played in both leagues in the same year, they will get counted for both.

(And yeah, I know I should use PAs. Ain't happening.)
   14. yest Posted: August 22, 2006 at 10:13 AM (#2151609)
For yest, and anyone else interested, I just posted an updated version of my at-bats file. I added graphs showing the number of players in each league for every year, and the number of "regular players", which really means regular or semi-regular position players. I set the boundary at 200 ABs for now. I was looking for stuff I could do quickly.

for some reason I was never able to open up load 99% (including that one) of the files on the Yahoo site
   15. DL from MN Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:30 PM (#2151706)
Elston and Frank ended up in the right order alphabetically in the final tabulations.

I think the answer to Waddell or Pierce is both. We're short pitching.
   16. sunnyday2 Posted: August 22, 2006 at 01:50 PM (#2151731)
Having looked a little closer, it looks like we will elect 6 to 8 backloggers by 1988, then only 1 or 2 in the first half of the '90s, but probably as many as 7 in the second half of the '90s.

Short-term (B. Robby and Torre not really "backlog"): Mendez, Freehan, Kiner, Sewell, Minoso; Waddell or Pierce for sure; then from 0 to 2 more from among Waddell, Pierce and Childs.

Mid-term: Clean up the remainder if any among Waddell, Pierce and Childs; or add 1 or 2 from among Beckley, D. Moore and J. Wynn.

Long-term: Add another 7 including the remainder if any among Beckley, Moore and Wynn; and add Duffy, Boyer, Redding, Fox and C. Jones; and add 0-2 from among Keller, GVH, Browning, Trouppe, Johnson, Welch and Walters. Hard to believe: some of that group will be the top of the backlog by 2001.

Fly in ointment: We could be vastly more favorable to newbies in the '90s and then everything above is wrong. But I thought I was fairly liberal in "electing" newbies of the '90s. Either way it comes down to choices like this:

Rusty Staub or George Van Haltren
Tony Perez or Jake Beckley
Ted Simmons or Quincy Trouppe
Graig Nettles or Ken Boyer
Jim Rice or Bob Johnson

There do not appear to be any truly "borderline" pitchers to pit against Welch and Walters. They all look to me to be clearly in or clearly out.
   17. Chris Fluit Posted: August 22, 2006 at 03:06 PM (#2151838)
sunnyday, are you counting Luis Tiant as clearly in or clearly out?
   18. sunnyday2 Posted: August 22, 2006 at 04:19 PM (#2151930)
Good question, I think I had him clearly out.

(Ducks.)
   19. OCF Posted: August 23, 2006 at 05:35 PM (#2153969)
Rusty Staub or George Van Haltren
Tony Perez or Jake Beckley
Ted Simmons or Quincy Trouppe
Graig Nettles or Ken Boyer
Jim Rice or Bob Johnson


Jeff Kent or Larry Doyle? (I know, Kent won't be eligible for some time.)

I definitely have Bob Johnson ahead of Jim Rice - and Johnson is not currently on my ballot. The others I haven't looked at yet.
   20. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 23, 2006 at 08:52 PM (#2154176)
Staub, Beckley, Simmons, Nettles, Johnson.
   21. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 23, 2006 at 09:16 PM (#2154211)
Neither
Perez
Both
Neither
Neither.

Hah.
   22. Chris Fluit Posted: August 23, 2006 at 10:29 PM (#2154257)
This shows how Joe and I are on completely different wavelengths: I was thinking neither, Perez, Trouppe, Boyer, Rice
   23. sunnyday2 Posted: August 23, 2006 at 10:40 PM (#2154260)
Neither, neither, Simmons, neither, Rice.
   24. Rob_Wood Posted: August 24, 2006 at 01:18 AM (#2154557)
I'll play too.

Van Haltren with Staub close to my borderline
Beckley with Perez close to my borderline
Simmons with Trouppe below my borderline
Nettles ahead of Boyer, both above my borderline
Johnson with Rice below my borderline
   25. sunnyday2 Posted: August 24, 2006 at 01:40 AM (#2154609)
Simmons is the only one of the 10 with 3 out of 5 mentions so far. Perez, Trouppe, Nettles, Boyer and Rice 2 apiece.
   26. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 24, 2006 at 01:53 AM (#2154640)
I hope you don't mind a HOM-lurker asking a question. Does the HOM have an established rule for comparing across eras? Are you supposed to only judge how a guy compared to his peers or are you allowed to put in some kind of time line? Thanks.
   27. sunnyday2 Posted: August 24, 2006 at 01:57 AM (#2154644)
Time line? You wanna know about a time line? Well I'll tell you about a timeline!!!

Seriously, there's been arguing about timelining for 3 years now. It's allowed. But the timeliners catch a lot of heat, by golly!

And we also have a clause in our Constitution: No wiretapping without a warrant. And you must be "fair to all eras."
   28. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 24, 2006 at 02:01 AM (#2154652)
Thanks, sunnyday2. I really didn't mean to start anything.
   29. TomH Posted: August 24, 2006 at 02:06 AM (#2154659)
OW! That was HOT! Stop that!

Tom the timeliner
   30. sunnyday2 Posted: August 24, 2006 at 02:07 AM (#2154662)
You didn't start anything. I was just being melodramatic. I forgot you don't know my *style.* But seriously, we argue about timelining just like we argue about everything.
   31. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 24, 2006 at 02:12 AM (#2154669)
Sorry, sunnday2. I should have added the :-) at the end of mine. I could tell you were going for melodrama. Just out of curiousity, is there a good thread where y'all do get into the subject of timelining some? As I said, I don't want to start anything, but I'd be interested in reading y'all's takes on the subject.
   32. sunnyday2 Posted: August 24, 2006 at 03:37 AM (#2154777)
I don't think there's ever been a thread specifically about that, but there is a thread about calculating league quality and another on uber stats (basically WS vs. WARP). (Go to HoM Home and click on Important Links.) They might have gotten into it. But mostly I would guess it's here, there and everywhere.
   33. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 24, 2006 at 04:01 AM (#2154806)
Thanks, sunnyday2. I've read the WARP v. WS thread before. I'm just starting the league-quality thread. Very interesting stuff; you guys do great work over here.
   34. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 24, 2006 at 01:13 PM (#2155038)
I know we recently argued about timelining within the last five election cycles. But I don't remember if it was a ballot discussion thread or a player thread or what. these things tend to pop up in the least likely location. like when you get poison ivy into your bloodstream. ; )
   35. Rob_Wood Posted: August 24, 2006 at 07:55 PM (#2155528)
If we are remembering the same discussion, there was a fair amount in the ballot thread in which Argo and BWilliams joined the party (1980 I think). That discussion just skimmed the surface. Of course, timelining has been a hot topic since the start of the HOM and there are innumerable threads going back a few years.
   36. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 24, 2006 at 08:58 PM (#2155586)
Yes, that's the most recent, the Argonautical discussion. May have skimmed, but I think it hit a lot of the big ideas pretty squarely and would be an excellent place to start reading.
   37. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: August 27, 2006 at 02:37 AM (#2158197)
Rusty Staub or George Van Haltren
Tony Perez or Jake Beckley
Ted Simmons or Quincy Trouppe
Graig Nettles or Ken Boyer
Jim Rice or Bob Johnson
Jeff Kent or Larry Doyle? (I know, Kent won't be eligible for some time.)


Neither.
Perez as a "maybe" (possibly one of the bottom five-ten HOMers).
Both.
Neither.
Johnson (see Perez).
Kent.
   38. yest Posted: August 27, 2006 at 02:48 AM (#2158225)
Rusty Staub or George Van Haltren
Tony Perez or Jake Beckley
Ted Simmons or Quincy Trouppe
Graig Nettles or Ken Boyer
Jim Rice or Bob Johnson
Jeff Kent or Larry Doyle? (I know, Kent won't be eligible for some time.)


Van Haltren
Beckley (possibly Perez in about (got it right this time) 50 "years" after he debuts)
Ted Simmons (possibly Simmons need to anilize his defense)
Neither
Rice
Neither
   39. Brent Posted: August 27, 2006 at 03:14 AM (#2158264)
I guess it's old news now, but effective with the election of George Sisler in 1979, the 1957 ballot has taken the lead as the deepest ballot in HoM history with 17 eventual HoMers.

The top 14 vote-getters from the 1957 ballot have now all been elected, and also # 17 (Bell), # 21 (Doerr), and # 33 (Gordon). The top vote-getters who haven't been elected were # 15 (Beckley) and # 16 (Van Haltren).

Ten ballots are tied for second place with 16 eventual HoMers each: 1899-1900, 1902-03, 1923, 1953-56, and 1958. The all-time weakest ballots (ignoring the elections since 1975, which are at a disadvantage according to this measure) were 1931-32 with only 5 eventual HoMers each.
   40. Guapo Posted: August 28, 2006 at 02:46 PM (#2159225)
I know you guys wrote to Santo after his election- any discussion of writing to Allen? (I'm dead serious, by the way)
   41. DL from MN Posted: August 28, 2006 at 02:54 PM (#2159234)
I think everyone elected should get a letter of congratulations.
   42. sunnyday2 Posted: August 28, 2006 at 02:59 PM (#2159237)
>I think everyone elected should get a letter of congratulations.

I especially think Dickey Pearce and Joe Start would be very appreciative! ;-)
   43. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 28, 2006 at 03:01 PM (#2159239)
I especially think Dickey Pearce and Joe Start would be very appreciative! ;-)

I think I'll pass on being the one to give them the good news. :-0
   44. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 28, 2006 at 03:02 PM (#2159242)
I know you guys wrote to Santo after his election- any discussion of writing to Allen? (I'm dead serious, by the way)

I think we should for him and for probable inductee Joe Torre. Joe?
   45. yest Posted: August 28, 2006 at 03:17 PM (#2159252)
did you ever notify Killerbrew?
   46. DavidFoss Posted: August 28, 2006 at 03:23 PM (#2159257)
did you ever notify Killerbrew?

I think the plan is to notify living HOM-not-HOF's. Killebrew is a HOF-er.
   47. DL from MN Posted: August 28, 2006 at 03:38 PM (#2159272)
If I got a letter out of the blue that my long dead great grandfather was thought to be one of the best baseball players of his era, it would make my day a lot more interesting. There are plenty of other people interested in genealogy and/or baseball that would probably find it interesting also. They might even check out the website, go to the thread for the player, read it and possibly contribute more information. Willie Mays might treat it like so much junk mail but a little well-intentioned junk mail never hurt anyone.
   48. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 28, 2006 at 03:42 PM (#2159276)
If I got a letter out of the blue that my long dead great grandfather was thought to be one of the best baseball players of his era, it would make my day a lot more interesting. There are plenty of other people interested in genealogy and/or baseball that would probably find it interesting also. They might even check out the website, go to the thread for the player, read it and possibly contribute more information. Willie Mays might treat it like so much junk mail but a little well-intentioned junk mail never hurt anyone.

I agree on all counts, DL. The worst that will happen is the inductee or his relatives will ignore it.
   49. karlmagnus Posted: August 28, 2006 at 03:45 PM (#2159277)
I agree on sending to Allen and Torre, and to anyone else the HOF hasn't elected when we do. We should emphasise to Torre that we are giving him no points at all for his management of the Yankees; he gets in purely on his Merit as a player. That may make our award feel more worthwhile, since I suspect his current non-HOF status is a sore point.
   50. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 28, 2006 at 03:50 PM (#2159282)
We should emphasise to Torre that we are giving him no points at all for his management of the Yankees; he gets in purely on his Merit as a player. That may make our award feel more worthwhile, since I suspect his current non-HOF status is a sore point.

Definitely, karlmagnus. That would be a must.
   51. sunnyday2 Posted: August 28, 2006 at 04:03 PM (#2159292)
I could look it up but I'm too lazy. ARe there any living HoM/not HoF besides Santo and Allen (and soon to be, you know who)?
   52. DavidFoss Posted: August 28, 2006 at 04:07 PM (#2159298)
ARe there any living HoM/not HoF besides Santo and Allen (and soon to be, you know who)?

I know that Santo was the first. The first living HOM-not-HOF is something that had been tracked and there was speculation as to who woudl be first. That's why the letter was written. That wasn't that long ago, so I'm fairly sure that Allen is the second.
   53. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 28, 2006 at 04:32 PM (#2159327)
Allen is the second living HOM-not-HOF.
   54. Howie Menckel Posted: August 28, 2006 at 11:54 PM (#2159727)
Anyone know where Allen is these days?
Interesting intersection of Allen and Santo, at least according to wikipedia:

Despite making the All-Star team in each of his three years with the [White Sox], [Allen] had once again outlived his welcome by 1974, when he walked out on September 14, with two weeks left in the season after feuding with Ron Santo, who was playing his final year of big league ball after leaving the crosstown Chicago Cubs. The Sox sold Allen to the Atlanta Braves for only $5,000 despite the fact that he led the league in home runs, slugging (.563) and OPS (.938). Allen refused to report and announced his retirement.
The Phillies managed to coax Allen out of retirement for the 1975 season, and he spent two relatively unproductive seasons there, batting just .233 and .268. He moved to the Oakland Athletics for the 1977 season, where he left in his typical style - walking out on the A's when they considered making him a designated hitter.
   55. Jim Sp Posted: August 29, 2006 at 05:54 AM (#2159947)
1) Mendez--PHoM in 1932.
2) Sewell--109 OPS+, reasonably long career, good shortstop (A- Win Shares). Yes, I am allowing for his switch to 3B at the end of his career. PHoM in 1939. 5 years with WARP3 > 10.0, plus an 8.8 and an 8.5. Easy best Warp peak of the holdovers. PHoM 1939.
3) Brooks Robinson
4) Bob Johnson--A very underrated player. I was a WS guy but here in particular I think Warp has it right—great defense. PHoM in 1970.
5) Fox--The man had 2663 hits (#61 all time) and was a great fielder. PHoM in 1970.
6) Dick Redding--
7) Ken Boyer--PHoM 1976. 4 years above 10.0 warp3.
8) Minoso--I gave full ML credit for two+ years.
9) Stephens-- PHoM in 1961. Looks underrated to me. Best years by Warp3 10.2, 10.1, 8.9, 8.5, 8.0, 7.8.
10) Rizzuto--Lots of war credit. PHoM 1977.
11) Elliott--PHoM in 1960.
12) Jimmy Wynn
13) Torre
14) Dobie Moore--
15) KellerAdded back the war credit.
   56. Jim Sp Posted: August 29, 2006 at 05:55 AM (#2159948)
gotta get some sleep. wrong thread obviously...

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