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Monday, August 21, 2006

1984 Ballot Discussion

1984 (September 4)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

269 75.3 1959 Ron Fairly-1B/RF
261 68.5 1962 Jim Fregosi-SS
190 78.0 1963 Wilbur Wood-P
189 55.4 1963 Bob Bailey-3B
171 56.3 1966 Davey Johnson-2B
127 44.6 1964 Jerry Grote-C
132 38.1 1966 Tito Fuentes-2B
122 40.8 1965 Jim Lonborg-P
116 41.4 1965 Nelson Briles-P (2005)
122 32.6 1965 Mickey Stanley-CF
110 31.6 1969 Wayne Garrett-3B
102 32.8 1970 Don Gullett-P
104 24.8 1965 Sandy Alomar-2B

Players Passing Away in 1983
Age Elected

81 1961 Earl Averill-CF

Age Eligible

88 1925 George Halas-RF/NFL HOF
85 1942 Charlie Grimm-1B
82 1943 Fred Schulte-CF
76 1946 Jackie Hayes-2B
76 1954 Hilton Smith-P
74 1959 Dutch Leonard-P
70 1953 Chet Laabs-LF/RF
67 1955 Stan Spence-CF
60 1967 Del Rice-C
58 1966 Willie Jones-3B
58 1969 Vic Wertz-RF/1B
39 1982 Carl Morton-P

Thanks, Dan!

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2006 at 02:20 AM | 216 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Page 3 of 3 pages  < 1 2 3
   201. DavidFoss Posted: August 31, 2006 at 03:34 PM (#2163061)
total WS as a Brave than a Cardinal (155 to 142).

Yup. WS-weighted fractional caps have him at 49.2% Brave, 45.1% Cardinal and 5.7% Met.

Its one of the tighter ones we've had, that's for sure.
   202. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 31, 2006 at 03:35 PM (#2163062)
but he still had more total WS as a Brave than a Cardinal (155 to 142).

Stupid me. When I was adding up the totals, I forgot to subtract the Mets' seasons from the Braves-less total. That changes things considerably and I'm now more convinced that he gets a Braves cap.
   203. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 31, 2006 at 03:36 PM (#2163064)
   204. jimd Posted: August 31, 2006 at 07:02 PM (#2163454)
WS-weighted fractional caps have him at 49.2% Brave, 45.1% Cardinal and 5.7% Met.

WARP agrees. 51.5% Brave, 41.6% Cardinal, 6.9% Met.
   205. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 31, 2006 at 08:39 PM (#2163710)
Mets. Definitely Mets.

; )
   206. yest Posted: September 01, 2006 at 01:19 AM (#2164046)
Cardnials had his best seasons there
   207. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 01, 2006 at 02:02 AM (#2164120)
Cardnials had his best seasons there

Best season, you mean.
   208. yest Posted: September 01, 2006 at 02:22 AM (#2164160)
no I meant seasons 1970-71
   209. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 01, 2006 at 12:14 PM (#2164443)
no I meant seasons 1970-71

Maybe about '70 being better than any of his Braves seasons, but it's arguable. I wouldn't argue against '71, though.
   210. DavidFoss Posted: September 01, 2006 at 02:58 PM (#2164586)
Torre's WS numbers on the top line, year on the bottom line.


The top 12 include six STL and six MIL/ATL seasons. He jumped to the Cards in 1969. Pretty evenly matched except for the '41'. The 22 early WS for the Braves (unlisted 13 & 9) are outweighing the '41' in the career totals.
   211. fra paolo Posted: September 01, 2006 at 11:49 PM (#2165113)
A late preliminary ballot from a peak/prime voter.

1 Ralph Kiner His career was short, but for half of it he was comparable to an inner-circle Hall of Famer. Seven home run titles is the third-highest total in MLB history, too.
2 Rube Waddell Another short career, superb peak fellow.
3 Cupid Childs Between 1890 and 1897 he accumalated 214 Adjusted Batting Runs and 72 Fielding Runs, which is more batting runs and as many fielding runs as Brooks Robinson did from 1960 to 1972.
4 Jimmy Wynn In terms of Batting Runs + Fielding Runs he's the most impactful of the CFers I've rated.
5 Ken Boyer Boyer is an excellent third baseman in an 11-year prime, almost as good with the glove as Brooks, and better with the bat.
6 Alejandro Oms I find my rightfield candidates rank closely together, but Oms has got the longest prime, in a field where prime seems to be in short supply.
7 Orlando Cepeda By virtue of height of prime, he's first at first at the moment.
8 Billy Pierce I've started measuring pitchers' consistency of performance, and he's a lot better than Walters, even though he lacks Walters' great peak.
9 Minnie Minoso Adds 3 wins a year during his prime, with solid peak seasons in 1952, 1954 and 1956.
10 Phil Rizzuto See the Fregosi thread, but I'm still reassessing shortstops.
11 Elston Howard He adds more value in his prime than Freehan or Torre.
12 Tony Oliva I'm convinced Oliva is underrated, with his 8 prime years almost as good as Minoso's.
13 Charley Jones A dominant bat in his era, given a boost because of his missing years owing to a salary dispute.
14 Edd Roush When he retired he was the 2d-best centrefielder in National League history. Overshadowed by his AL counterparts.
15 Brooks Robinson Gets points for being good for a long time, but really he's the archetypal career candidate.

Pushed off ballot:
Hugh Duffy - Wynn and Roush are better, but I'm flip-flopping on Roush v Duffy.
Chuck Klein - I don't like long tails of non-prime-performance, which makes Oms and Oliva more attractive.
Joe Sewell - I'm not sure I haven't overreacted to my work on Fregosi and Aparicio, but Sewell's case is looking too much dependent on a single year, 1923.

Top 10s not on ballot
Joe Torre - He's a good batter, but he didn't play enough anywhere to get on my ballot.
Jose Mendez - I just don't think he's as good as Waddell or Pierce.
Bill Freehan - He's not consistently good enough with the bat for long enough to suit me.
Bucky Walters - Lost out to Pierce this time round, possibly for good.

Esteemed newcomer
Jim Fregosi - A worse version of Sewell, with the advantage of an integrated league.
Ron Fairly - I found him intriguing, but this time round I decided his peak wasn't high enough.
   212. Howie Menckel Posted: September 02, 2006 at 09:17 PM (#2165944)
I notice that Jackie Robinson's 1952 is the last 2B season by a HOMer, while the last SS HOMer seasons are Ernie Banks 1957-61.

Nellie Fox (18 votes/1949-64) and Luis Aparicio (2 votes/1956-73) are the only current candidates getting votes at either shot from that era, and shoe-in Morgan and longshot Campaneris don't get going until 1965.

Not necessarily a mistake on our part, but it's interesting that it seems likely we'll go 12 years - 1953-64 - without a HOMer playing mainly 2B (unless I've missed someone).
Will we also go through the rest of the 1960s without a HOMer season at SS? Could be.
   213. sunnyday2 Posted: September 02, 2006 at 10:21 PM (#2165967)
Well, it's not our fault that ML managers and GMs of the '60s decided that great players couldn't play 2Bs and SS.
   214. rawagman Posted: September 02, 2006 at 10:39 PM (#2165979)
I think Fox eventually gets in the HOM.
   215. Brent Posted: September 03, 2006 at 03:47 PM (#2166316)
Not necessarily a mistake on our part, but it's interesting that it seems likely we'll go 12 years - 1953-64 - without a HOMer playing mainly 2B (unless I've missed someone).

Pete Rose was at 2B from 1963-66, which would cut it to 1953-62. I support Fox too, which would fill in the rest of the period.

Shortstop is one of the best represented positions in the HoM, so I don't have a problem acknowledging that the position was weak for a couple of decades.
   216. TomH Posted: September 05, 2006 at 02:38 PM (#2168037)
1985 prelim
I'll be away on business with little or no internet access until 9/11. So, here's a pictoral view of my top 50ish for 85, assuming my top 2 Brooks and Torre are elected. Munson is competing with oodles of catchers in the backlog, and would be higher if my voting were more 'peaky'. Brock's SBs do not impress me as much as they did the HoF voters. Comments most welcome, but I won't address them until next week.

deadball (pre 1920) in italics, time in NgLg in bold

?clearly in? ------ ?borderline? --- ?HoVGood?

-C --- Freehan --- Bresnahan Trouppe/Munson/Schang/Howard/Lombardi (all 5)
SS Sewell ------------ Moore/Rizzuto/Rabbit/Louie (all 4) Fregosi
2B --- Childs ---- Monroe ------- Doyle/Fox
3B McGraw/Boyer -? Traynor/Leach - Elliot

1B -Beckley- Chance Cash ---- Cepeda/Easter
OF ---- VaHltrn/Keller ----- DiMaggio Oms
OF ------ Johnson Kiner Wynn Browning Cravath
OF ------- Minoso

-P -- Walters Redding Waddell Welch Newcombe Bridges
-P ? Pierce ?---- Mendez -Grimes ----- Dean L Jackson Shocker
Page 3 of 3 pages  < 1 2 3

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