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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Tuesday, September 05, 2006

1984 Results: Second Time’s the Trick for Robinson and Torre As This Year’s Hall of Merit Picks!

In only his second year of eligibility, third base fielding legend Brooks Robinson garnered 68% of all possible points to claim a spot in the Hall of Merit.

Another sophomore candidate, multipositional standout Joe Torre, received 60% of all possible points for induction.

Rounding out the top-ten were: José Méndez, Bill Freehan, Joe Sewell, Ralph Kiner, Minnie Minoso, Billy Pierce, Rube Waddell, and Cupid Childs.

Breaking the record set in 1982 by one, 85 candidates found themselves on a ballot. 

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1    3  Brooks Robinson          898   49  19  4  3  4     2  5  2  2  3  3  1        1
 2    4  Joe Torre                791   45   8 10  4  6  2  1  3  2  1  2  1     2  2  1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 3    5  José Méndez              521   32   6  2  5  4  2  1  3     1  2  2  2        2
 4    6  Bill Freehan             475   31   1  4  2  5  3  2  2  3  3  3  1        2   
 5    7  Joe Sewell               403   28   2  2  2  4  2     4  3     3     1  2  2  1
 6    8  Ralph Kiner              376   27   3  3  1     2  4  2  1  1        3  1  1  5
 7   10  Minnie Minoso            369   32         4  2     3     3  4  1  2  5  3  1  4
 8   11  Billy Pierce             367   27      2  2  2  2  1  4  3  2  3  3     1  2   
 9    9  Rube Waddell             366   25      5  5     1     2  1  1  4  1  1  2  1  1
10   12  Cupid Childs             312   24      1  4  2  2  2     2  3        2  1  3  2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   15  Dobie Moore              295   21   1  2  4     2  2  1  2        1     2  1  3
12   13  Jake Beckley             288   20   2  1  1  3  3     1     3     1  1  3  1   
13   16  Cannonball Dick Redding  282   20   2  1  1  1  2  4        1  2  2  1  1  1  1
14   20  Ken Boyer                265   23            1  1  4  2  2  2  1  3  2  2  1  2
15   17  Nellie Fox               263   20         4     3  1  2     3  1  2  3        1
16   19  Jimmy Wynn               262   22      1     2  1  1  2  1  5  1  1  1  2  3  1
17   14  Hugh Duffy               257   19   2        2  3  2     3  1     1     1  4   
18   18  Charley Jones            248   16   1  3  1  1  3     1  2           2  1     1
19   24  Quincy Trouppe           231   19         1  1  2  2  2  1  3     1  2  2  1  1
20   23  Pete Browning            198   12   1  2  3     1  1     2     1              1
21   21  Charlie Keller           196   14   3        2     1     2  1        1  1  2  1
22   22  George Van Haltren       195   16         2  2  1     1     1  2  2  3     2   
23   28  Edd Roush                187   16      1     1  2     2     1  2     3     2  2
24   25  Bob Johnson              177   14      1  1  1        3     1  1  1  4  1      
25   27  Bucky Walters            167   14      1     1  1     2  2     1     1  3  1  1
26   26  Mickey Welch             165   10   1  2  1     1  2     1           2         
27   29  Gavy Cravath             151   13      1  1        2  1     1     1  2  1     3
28   32  Roger Bresnahan          146   12   1  1              1  2  1     1     3  1  1
29   30  Burleigh Grimes          146   11      1  1        3     1     1  3           1
30T  31  Norm Cash                130   10            1  1  2     2  1     2  1         
30T  33  Alejandro Oms            130   10   1           1  2        2  1     1  2      
32   34  Tommy Leach              129   12            1  1  2     1     1  1        2  3
33   36  Orlando Cepeda           110   11               1  1  1  1     1  1        1  4
34   35  Larry Doyle               93    6      1  1     1  1     1              1      
35   40  Wally Schang              85    7   1              1           1  1  2     1   
36   43  Tommy Bridges             75    8                           1  1  2  1  2  1   
37   41  Bob Elliott               71    7                     1     1     2  2     1   
38   42  Ben Taylor                67    6               1  1     1        1        1  1
39   38  John McGraw               67    4      1  1        1           1               
40   39  Pie Traynor               60    4      1              1  1        1            
41   47  Phil Rizzuto              58    5               1              2  2            
42   49  Vic Willis                57    6               1              1     1     3   
43   37  Dizzy Dean                57    5               1     1     1        1        1
44   45  Jimmy Ryan                50    5                           1  2        2      
45   60  Dutch Leonard             47    4                  1     1     1        1      
46   51  Sam Rice                  46    4                     1  1  1              1   
47   61  Elston Howard             44    6                                 1     2     3
48   46  Addie Joss                43    4            1              1           1     1
49T  48  Ernie Lombardi            41    3            1           1     1               
49T  58  Rabbit Maranville         41    3      1                    1                 1
51   52  Vern Stephens             40    4                           2           2      
52T  57  Bill Monroe               39    4                        1     1        1  1   
52T  50  Ed Williamson             39    4                     1           1     1  1   
54   53  Carl Mays                 38    3                     1  1     1               
55   54T Dizzy Trout               37    3                     1  1        1            
56   62  Frank Howard              35    4                              1  1        2   
57   44  Chuck Klein               33    2            1  1                              
58   63  Dave Bancroft             30    3                     1           1           1
59   64  Luis Aparicio             27    3                        1              1     1
60   59  Ed Cicotte                27    2               1              1               
61T  54T Lefty Gomez               25    2                  1              1            
61T  67T Tony Oliva                25    2               1                    1         
63   56  Al Rosen                  24    3                              1           1  1
64   65T Frank Chance              24    2            1                             1   
65   72  Tony Mullane              21    2                              1  1            
66T  67T Artie Wilson              17    1            1                                 
66T  65T Fielder Jones             17    1            1                                 
68   69  Jack Quinn                16    1               1                              
69   70  Urban Shocker             15    1                  1                           
70   71  Sam Leever                12    1                           1                  
71T  73T Fred Dunlap               11    1                              1               
71T  75T Don Newcombe              11    1                              1               
73T  73T Wilbur Cooper             10    1                                 1            
73T  75T Bobby Veach               10    1                                 1            
75T  79  Gil Hodges                 9    1                                    1         
75T n/e  Virgil Trucks              9    1                                    1         
77T  75T George J. Burns            8    1                                       1      
77T  75T Hack Wilson                8    1                                       1      
77T  80  Herman Long                8    1                                       1      
77T n/e  Sol White                  8    1                                       1      
81T n/e  Dom DiMaggio               7    1                                          1   
81T n/e  Jim Fregosi                7    1                                          1   
81T n/e  Bob Friend                 7    1                                          1   
81T n/e  Bill Wright                7    1                                          1   
85  n/e  Bus Clarkson               6    1                                             1
Ballots Cast: 55
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 05, 2006 at 05:39 PM | 35 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 06, 2006 at 12:02 AM (#2168527)
Congratulations to Brooks and Joe!

Mendez, Freehan, and Sewell look good for '85, but wil Brock have a say in that?
   2. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 06, 2006 at 12:03 AM (#2168530)
HOF-not-HOM through 1984
 
1  Aparicio
Luis
2. Bancroft
Dave
3. Beckley
Jake
4  Bender
Chief
5  Bottomley
Jim
6  Bresnahan
Roger
7  Chance
Frank
8  Chesbro
Jack
9  Combs
Earle
10 Cuyler
Kiki
11 Dean
Dizzy
12 Duffy
Hugh
13 Evers
Johnny
14 Ferrell
Rick
15 Gomez
Lefty
16 Grimes
Burleigh
17 Hafey
Chick
18 Haines
Jesse
19 Hooper
Harry
20 Hoyt
Waite
21 Jackson
Travis
22 Johnson
Judy
23 Joss
Addie
24 Kell
George
25 Kelly
George
26 Kiner
Ralph
27 Klein
Chuck
28 Lindstrom
Freddie
29 Manush
Heinie
30 Maranville
Rabbit
31 Marquard
Rube
32 McCarthy
Tommy
33 McGraw
John 
34 Pennock
Herb
35 Rice
Sam
36 Roush
Edd
37 Schalk
Ray
38 Sewell
Joe
39 Tinker
Joe
40 Traynor
Pie
41 Waddell
Rube
42 Waner
Lloyd
43 Welch
Mickey
44 Wilson
Hack
45 Youngs
Ross
 
HOM
-not-HOF
 
1  Allen
Dick 
2  Ashburn
Richie
3  Barnes
Ross
4  Beckwith
John
5  Bennett
Charlie
6  Brown
Ray
7  Brown
Willard
8  Bunning
Jim
9  Caruthers
Bob
10 Dahlen
Bill
11 Davis
George
12 Doby
Larry
13 Doerr
Bobby
14 Ferrell
Wes
15 Foster
Willie 
16 Glasscock
Jack
17 Gordon
Joe
18 Gore
George
19 Grant
Frank
20 Groh
Heinie
21 Hack
Stan
22 Hill
Pete
23 Hines
Paul
24 Jackson
Joe*
25 JohnsonHome Run
26 Mackey
Biz
27 Magee
Sherry
28 McPhee
Bid
29 McVey
Cal
30 Newhouser
Hal
31 Pearce
Dickey
32 Pike
Lip
33 Richardson
Hardy
34 Rogan
Bullet Joe
35 Santo
Ron
36 Santop
Louis
37 Sheckard
Jimmy
38 Slaughter
Enos
39 Start
Joe
40 Stearnes
Turkey
41 Stovey
Harry
42 Suttles
Mule
43 Sutton
Ezra
44 Torre
Joe
45 Torriente
Cristobal
46 Vaughan
Arky
47 Wells
Willie
48 White
Deacon
49 Wilhelm
Hoyt
50 Williams
Billy
51 Williams
Smokey Joe
52 Wilson
Jud
 
*  not eligible for the HOF 
   3. OCF Posted: September 06, 2006 at 12:05 AM (#2168535)
Average consensus score -10.4, the lowest since 1976 and the seventh lowest since I started tracking - and it's likely to be lower next year. Next year may threaten the record of -15.4 (1968). Highest possible consensus score was +8.

Got Melky: +2
Devin McCullen: 0
TomH: -3
Pedro Feliz N: -3
Ardo: -4
Juan V: -4
Howie Menckel: -4
Trevor P: -4
...
Chris Cobb: -6
...
OCF: -6
...
Jim Sp: -9 (median)
...
Joe Dimino: -11
...
John Murphy: -14
...
mulder & scully: -19
fra paolo: -19
Mark Donelson: -20
Jeff M: -20
rico vanian: -20
EricC: -21
KJOK: -24
yest: -24
karlmagnus: -25
Vaux: -27

The only recent voter not to cast a ballot this time was B. Williams doubled to catcher.
   4. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: September 06, 2006 at 12:34 AM (#2168582)
I never thought we'd see the day when Childs makes the top 10 again.
   5. yest Posted: September 06, 2006 at 12:35 AM (#2168584)
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Brooks Robinson, , Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 06, 2006 at 12:45 AM (#2168596)
I never thought we'd see the day when Childs makes the top 10 again.

He was in the top-ten only a few "years" ago, Eric.
   7. jimd Posted: September 06, 2006 at 01:19 AM (#2168640)
BBWAA Voting for 1984

Name Votes PCT
Luis Aparicio 341 84.62
Harmon Killebrew 335 83.13
Don Drysdale 316 78.41

Hoyt Wilhelm 290 71.96
Nellie Fox 246 61.04
Billy Williams 202 50.12
Jim Bunning 201 49.88
Orlando Cepeda 124 30.77
Tony Oliva 124 30.77
Roger Maris 107 26.55
Harvey Kuenn 106 26.30
Maury Wills 104 25.81
Lew Burdette 97 24.07
Bill Mazeroski 74 18.36
Roy Face 65 16.13
Elston Howard 45 11.17
Joe Torre 45 11.17
Thurman Munson 29 7.20
Don Larsen 25 6.20

Wilbur Wood 14 3.47
Jim Fregosi 4 0.99
Jim Bouton 3 0.74
Davey Johnson 3 0.74
Mickey Stanley 2 0.50
Bob Bailey 1 0.25
Nelson Briles 1 0.25
Clay Carroll 1 0.25

Last year was the first year of the 5% rule.
Dick Allen has been banished from the BBWAA ballot due to that.
Schoendienst was no longer eligible.
   8. Howie Menckel Posted: September 06, 2006 at 01:19 AM (#2168641)
all-time 'votes points' thru 1984 - those still eligible in 1985 election are in CAPS. electees not in caps.

Beckley picks up 93 pts on GVH; still trails by 701.5, or roughly 8 more 'vote years.' Can Beckley avoid getting elected long enough to 'win'? ;)
Sewell and Mendez, ranked 13-14, move up to 12-13 next year and then may 'retire.'
Jones and Leach pass Rixey and Caruthers; Bresnahan sandwiches in between the hurlers.
Minoso grabs 25th among active-vote players from McGraw, but two spots may open up next 'year.'

TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 22370.5
BECKLEY 21669
DUFFY 21273.5
BROWNING 18355.5
Griffith 17924
Jennings 16976
CHILDS 16860
WADDELL 16682
WELCH 15232
Sisler 13892

Pike 13399
Thompson 12349
SEWELL 12310
MENDEZ 11934
RYAN 11702.5
Bennett 11503
REDDING 11117
CJONES 10893
TLEACH 10832
Rixey 10789

BRESNAHAN 10782
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
Mackey 8930

OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Moore 8594, Roush 7986, Doyle 7036, Kiner 6362, Cravath 6318, Monroe 6286, Grimes 5841, Williamson 5237, Walters 5143, Schang 5093, Minoso 4897)

not quite
(McGraw 4783, Trouppe 4025, Oms 4021, Pierce 3853, BJohnson 3470, Joss 3317, Willis 3248, McCormick 3148X, Fox 3116, Chance 2792X, Keller 2706, Tiernan 2686X, Elliott 2654)
   9. Chris Fluit Posted: September 06, 2006 at 01:23 AM (#2168647)
Yup. Childs was last in the top ten in 1981. This is his third top ten appearance: 1931, 1981 and 1984.
   10. Chris Fluit Posted: September 06, 2006 at 01:41 AM (#2168678)
Just noticed: Torre was a 12th-place vote away from being listed in all 15 spots.
   11. Lemon Curry? Posted: September 06, 2006 at 01:13 PM (#2168990)
HOMers sorted by the percentage of available points in year of election. Players in bold were elected in their first year of eligibility.

INNER CIRCLE, BABY!

100.0 - Cy Young (1917)
100.0 - Honus Wagner (1923)
100.0 - Walter Johnson (1933)
100.0 - Babe Ruth (1941)
100.0 - Lou Gehrig (1944)
100.0 - Lefty Grove (1947)
100.0 - Joe DiMaggio (1957)
100.0 - Ted Williams (1966)
100.0 - Stan Musial (1969)
100.0 - Mickey Mantle (1974)
100.0 - Willie Mays (1979)
100.0 - Hank Aaron (1982)

NO-BRAINERS (>95)

99.8 - Sam Crawford (1924)
99.7 - Dan Brouthers (1902)
99.5 - Jimmie Foxx (1951)
99.5 - Warren Spahn (1971)
99.4 - Pete Alexander (1936)
99.4 - Josh Gibson (1952)
99.3 - Ty Cobb (1934)
99.2 - Oscar Charleston (1943)
98.9 - Kid Nichols (1911)
98.8 - Nap Lajoie (1922)
98.7 - Bob Gibson (1981)
98.4 - Ed Delahanty (1909)
98.4 - Arky Vaughan (1954)
98.3 - Roy Campanella (1963)
97.9 - Charlie Gehringer (1948)
97.9 - Bob Feller (1962)
97.8 - Eddie Collins (1935)
96.9 - Turkey Stearnes (1946)
96.6 - Satchel Paige (1959)
96.5 - Christy Mathewson (1922)
95.8 - Rogers Hornsby (1941)
95.8 - Frank Robinson (1982)
95.7 - George Davis (1915)
95.7 - Carl Hubbell (1949)
95.4 - Eddie Mathews (1974)
95.3 - Paul Waner (1950)
95.3 - Mel Ott (1952)

EASY CHOICES (>85)

94.9 - Jesse Burkett (1912)
94.8 - Smokey Joe Williams (1936)
94.8 - Johnny Mize (1959)
94.7 - Robin Roberts (1972)
94.7 - Ernie Banks (1977)
94.6 - Duke Snider (1970)
94.5 - Yogi Berra (1969)
94.4 - Deacon White (1898)
94.0 - Paul Hines (1898)
94.0 - Jim O'Rourke (1899)
94.0 - Jackie Robinson (1962)
93.7 - Al Simmons (1946)
93.2 - Roger Connor (1903)
93.1 - Roberto Clemente (1978)
92.1 - Gabby Hartnett (1947)
92.0 - Louis Santop (1932)
91.9 - Pop Lloyd (1935)
91.9 - Al Kaline (1980)
91.7 - Luke Appling (1956)
91.5 - Bill Dickey (1953)
90.6 - Harry Heilmann (1937)
90.3 - Buck Leonard (1955)
90.0 - John Clarkson (1900)
89.1 - Billy Hamilton (1907)
89.1 - Hank Greenberg (1953)
88.9 - Bill Dahlen (1915)
88.3 - Mickey Cochrane (1943)
88.2 - Cristobal Torriente (1937)
87.7 - Ron Santo (1980)
87.7 - Harmon Killebrew (1981)
87.2 - Joe Cronin (1951)
86.7 - Frankie Frisch (1944)
85.2 - Cap Anson* (1903)
85.2 - Fred Clarke (1917)

* Six voters boycotted Anson in 1903.

SOMEWHAT DEBATABLE (>70)

84.0 - King Kelly (1899)
83.5 - Ray Brown (1955)
82.9 - Martin Dihigo (1950)
82.6 - Frank Baker (1928)
82.4 - Jack Glasscock (1904)
82.2 - Eddie Plank (1924)
82.0 - Tris Speaker (1934)
81.5 - Goose Goslin (1945)
79.9 - Bullet Rogan (1940)
79.5 - George Gore (1898)
79.1 - Whitey Ford (1973)
78.6 - Hal Newhouser (1960)
78.4 - Willie Wells (1954)
78.2 - Tim Keefe (1901)
76.9 - Zack Wheat (1933)
76.6 - Jud Wilson (1948)
76.2 - George Wright (1901)
75.6 - Ezra Sutton (1908)
75.5 - Hoyt Wilhelm (1978)
74.7 - Buck Ewing (1902)
74.5 - Bid McPhee (1913)
74.4 - Ed Walsh (1920)
74.4 - Joe Jackson (1927)
73.9 - Pud Galvin (1910)
73.5 - John Ward (1900)
73.5 - Cal McVey (1914)
73.4 - Al Spalding (1906)
73.3 - Willie Keeler (1919)
72.5 - Joe Start (1912)
71.7 - Charley Radbourn (1905)
71.3 - Pee Wee Reese (1964)
70.7 - Jimmy Collins (1921)

SPLIT DECISIONS (>50)

69.8 - Amos Rusie (1904)
69.2 - Elmer Flick (1918)
68.9 - Dick Allen (1983)
68.4 - Ross Barnes (1898)
68.3 - Juan Marichal (1980)
68.1 - Joe Kelley (1919)
<font color=red>68.0 - Brooks Robinson (1984)</font>
67.3 - Mule Suttles (1956)
67.1 - Hardy Richardson (1905)
67.1 - Grant Johnson (1925)
66.8 - Mordecai Brown (1925)
66.8 - Ted Lyons (1949)
65.8 - Billy Williams (1983)
65.0 - Bill Foster (1945)
64.9 - Heinie Groh (1938)
63.2 - Harry Stovey (1916)
62.4 - Stan Coveleski (1938)
62.1 - Larry Doby (1965)
61.6 - Jimmy Sheckard (1930)
61.3 - Frank Grant (1926)
61.3 - Monte Irvin (1963)
61.0 - Bobby Wallace (1929)
60.9 - Charlie Bennett (1921)
60.9 - Enos Slaughter (1965)
60.7 - Joe McGinnity (1928)
60.2 - Sherry Magee (1926)
60.0 - Pete Hill (1927)
59.9 - Billy Herman (1958)
<font color=red>59.9 - Joe Torre (1984)</font>
58.0 - John Beckwith (1957)
56.6 - Bob Caruthers (1930)
56.5 - Dazzy Vance (1942)
54.9 - Don Drysdale (1975)
54.6 - Sam Thompson (1929)
54.3 - Sandy Koufax (1972)
53.0 - Dickey Pearce (1931)

VERY SPLIT DECISIONS (<50)

49.1 - Early Wynn (1970)
48.6 - Rube Foster (1932)
48.6 - Stan Hack (1958)
48.5 - Lou Boudreau (1958)
46.3 - Red Faber (1939)
45.6 - Max Carey (1939)
44.9 - Bill Terry (1942)
44.7 - Joe Medwick (1967)
41.8 - Joe Gordon (1976)
41.5 - Bob Lemon (1967)
41.3 - Wes Ferrell (1964)
40.5 - Lip Pike (1940)
40.4 - Earl Averill (1961)
38.8 - Red Ruffing (1966)
38.7 - Eppa Rixey (1968)
38.2 - George Sisler (1979)
38.1 - Richie Ashburn (1968)
37.9 - Willard Brown (1976)
37.7 - Hughie Jennings (1960)
37.7 - Jim Bunning (1977)
36.8 - Cool Papa Bell (1973)
35.4 - Biz Mackey (1975)
32.8 - Clark Griffith (1971)
32.8 - Bobby Doerr (1972)
   12. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: September 06, 2006 at 02:27 PM (#2169059)
You guys had an election on a holiday? Whoa. Oh well. My ballot would have changed the order of the top 10 but not the members.
   13. Mike Webber Posted: September 06, 2006 at 02:32 PM (#2169068)
You guys had an election on a holiday? Whoa. Oh well.


Thanks for the laugh B Williams! Man, that is funny!
   14. jingoist Posted: September 06, 2006 at 03:31 PM (#2169145)
Who would have thought Tris Speaker would only get 82% of the available votes in an election?
He went in the same year as Cobb and Eddie Collins who went in the following year obviously took some of his votes but Tris is a true inner circle guy if ever there was one. The vagaries of the whole HoM process.
Brooksie and Joe may be "split decisions" but they are worthy HoMers for sure.
   15. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 06, 2006 at 03:36 PM (#2169156)
The vagaries of the whole HoM process.

That's why vote percentage has to be taken with a grain of salt.
   16. DavidFoss Posted: September 06, 2006 at 03:40 PM (#2169165)
He went in the same year as Cobb and Eddie Collins who went in the following year obviously took some of his votes but Tris is a true inner circle guy if ever there was one. The vagaries of the whole HoM process.

Both Lloyd and Collins garnered a higher election %-age than Speaker even though Tris beat them both in their first year of eligibility. The list certainly requires interpretation, but its still a fun thing to look at.
   17. DanG Posted: September 06, 2006 at 03:46 PM (#2169171)
BBWAA Voting for 1984

Last year was the first year of the 5% rule.
Dick Allen has been banished from the BBWAA ballot due to that.


Actually, 1979 was the first year of the 5% rule, instituted as a reaction to Milt Pappas' complaints about being left off the ballot by the screening committee. Milt was among the rule's first victims, along with Boyer, Flood, Haddix and McLain. Santo was knocked out the next year, which explains his absence from the 1984 BBWAA results. Many of these were reinstated in 1985 (but not Pappas).
   18. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: September 06, 2006 at 05:08 PM (#2169275)


Thanks for the laugh B Williams! Man, that is funny!


Geez, I didn't realize I was the only person who takes the last week of August off, gets back up to speed on Labor Day Tuesday, and then gets around to the important stuff like the HoM on Wednesday.
   19. Juan V Posted: September 06, 2006 at 05:09 PM (#2169276)
Going through the list, it looks like me having Fregosi at 14 was the only vote for a newbie this "year". Is this some kind of record?
   20. DavidFoss Posted: September 06, 2006 at 05:16 PM (#2169287)
Going through the list, it looks like me having Fregosi at 14 was the only vote for a newbie this "year". Is this some kind of record?

Oh no. There's gotta be a few years that were just passed on completely. 1924 appears to be one. Someone here might be tracking the 'worst classes'.
   21. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 06, 2006 at 05:17 PM (#2169290)
Is this some kind of record?

I'm pretty sure that we have had electons where no votes were given to a new candidate, Juan. Can't remember when, though.
   22. DanG Posted: September 06, 2006 at 05:28 PM (#2169303)
I'm pretty sure that we have had electons where no votes were given to a new candidate

The last time was 1976, the class headed by Allison and Roseboro.
   23. sunnyday2 Posted: September 06, 2006 at 05:36 PM (#2169313)
I voted for some of the Very Split group, but I would cheerfully eject them all, to tell the truth.

The next group. the Split Decisions, no, because ironically the two guys at the very very bottom of the group--Koufax and Pearce--are, for me, are the two best players in the whole group. Go figure.

Fun list.
   24. karlmagnus Posted: September 06, 2006 at 05:54 PM (#2169339)
We may yet have to invent a category of "Extremely Split" below 30 as the electorate is getting splittier. The lowest VS in the first 50 years of the HOM was Lip Pike at 40.2; we've since had whole bunches of people way below that, with the bottom 5 all in the 1970s.
   25. sunnyday2 Posted: September 06, 2006 at 06:24 PM (#2169385)
I remember all kind of breast beating about Ross Barnes squeaking in through the back back door at 68 percent.
   26. Dr. Vaux Posted: September 06, 2006 at 06:24 PM (#2169386)
I'm going to post my "methods" response in this thread, since it's the current one.


I take defense into account, but since it's less quantifiable than offense, I take it into account less, and in a different way. Good defense helps good hitters more than bad hitters for me, because it makes a complete player, and bad hitters aren't complete players anyway. But a good hitter who plays merely decent defense can be a complete player, because he plugs a lineup spot, especially if it's a normally light-hitting one. I do, therefore, take position into account, but since position is now at best jointly-determined between player and organization, and in the past was completely determined by organization, though based, obviously, on the player's skillset, it is hard to decide exactly how or how much. Say it's 2019, and I'm trying to figure out whether to vote for Derek Jeter. Now, his hitting probably will make him a HOMer, but is he a better one because he played SS? He'd be more valuable to the team as an outfielder, because his defensive contribution would be better. So why should he get a boost for playing SS badly? If he had come up in the '80s, or '70s, or '60s, or earlier, he'd have been made a CF or at least a 3B before he reached the major leagues, and if Joe DiMaggio had come up in the '90s, he'd have been left at SS no matter how bad he was. That's just how it is now, but the fact that defensive position deployment changes through time and doesn't necessarily help the team instead of hurting it makes accounting for particular position over and above how well a player played whatever position he did play seem untenable.

But the real problem with my voting, as I can see, is that there seems to me no reason to displace players who already occupied a particular ranking on my ballot with players whose value was sufficiently similar as to be indistinguishable in my eyes. This leads to odd situations like Elliot at #20 and Robinson at #27. I feel like players who have been in my top 20 or so, particularly, have "earned" that ranking and shouldn't be moved down just because a new player has become elligible. That, in any case, is my interpretation of the HOM's wise injunction against the practice of timelining. Could I have just jammed in Joe Torre, Billy Williams, and Dick Allen and relegated Jimmy Ryan, Charlie Jones, and George Van Haltren to non-ballot status? Sure I could have. But that would be timelining, wouldn't it? If those players were worthy ten "years" ago, why aren't they worthy now? Unless someone can talk me out of this, or I talk myself out of it, then I suppose my consensus score is going to keep dropping.

If that's silly, though, I'd love to hear why, and I don't mean that snarkilly at all; I want to be counselled.
   27. DL from MN Posted: September 06, 2006 at 06:46 PM (#2169406)
The constitution not only says "all eras" but also says "all positions". If your voting methods would lead to a pHoM that was 80% corner outfielders, pitchers and first basemen, you aren't constructing your ballot correctly. Giving a player already on ballot the benefit of the doubt in all cases actually infers reverse timelining. There should be just as many instances where the new player beats out the old as the reverse when two players are rated closely.

I think you're judging all players on RCAR when RCAP gives more information. Someone must play SS. If you have a guy who can play an acceptable SS and hit like Jeter, you keep him there and get another bat who can play in the outfield.
   28. Chris Cobb Posted: September 06, 2006 at 06:53 PM (#2169416)
there seems to me no reason to displace players who already occupied a particular ranking on my ballot with players whose value was sufficiently similar as to be indistinguishable in my eyes.

You take this position to avoid timelining, but if you are still making the decision about the relative rankings of two players based on the fact that one was already there and so he has priority, then you are simply reverse timelining, which is no more defensible than timelining.

The only way out of this problem is to find reasonable ways to make distinctions betwen similar candidates.

But it seems to me that if you don't see a difference between Bob Elliott and Brooks Robinson, you aren't looking hard enough.
   29. Chris Fluit Posted: September 06, 2006 at 07:03 PM (#2169431)
First, your examples of players changing positions are pretty bad. The discussion around Orlando Cepeda- a player from the '60s- has included criticism of his unwillingness to move to the outfield from first base. Plus there are many current players who have switched positions: some have complained about it, such as Alfonso Soriano who has been moved from SS to 2B to LF; others have gone along with it quietly, such as Craig Biggio who has moved from C to 2B to CF to 2B again. So the idea that players before the 1990s never had a say in where they played while players from the '90s on have had such a say is simply false.

Second, the issue isn't whether a player chose his own position or had it chosen for him. The issue is whether the player played that position well, contributing to his team and helping them win games and pennants. Nobody's saying that you need to have all-glove, no-hit players on your ballot. If that were the case, we'd all be voting for Bill Mazeroski. But none of us are. We ARE saying that you need to give consideration to these other positions. A team can't win without somebody playing every position. And the best players at each position should be given due consideration. Now, we all disagree as to what constitutes "best." If you prefer a well-rounded player who combines offense and defense, that's fine. Vote for that kind of player. There are plenty of them around: Bill Freehan at catcher, Ken Boyer at third... But a ballot that concentrates exclusively on first basemen and outfielders while ignoring the contributions of players at other positions is a faulty ballot.
   30. karlmagnus Posted: September 06, 2006 at 07:10 PM (#2169440)
I had Elliott #37 and Brooks #62, so would agree with vaux that Elliott was more Meritorious -- a MUCH better hitter. I've come to the conclusion that the Fox/Maranville/Ozzie/Brooks type of player, poor hitters who get in on glove work, aren't in fact contributing anything like enough extra with the glove to make up for their poor hitting. There's just a limit as to how much brilliant fielding can get you over average (for an ML player) fielding. It's a similar illusion to stolen bases; frightfully flashy, but of only limited value. You can make up perhapds 25 points of OPS+ against an outfielder by being a brilliant SS, but not 50 -- for a 3B the limit is correspondingly less.

RCAP depends on people valuing fielding correctly and not putting Mark Belanger at SS over someone who hit 40 OPS+ points higher. As we know, baseball execs aren't always rational and so RCAP sometimes merely reflects their irrationality.
   31. DavidFoss Posted: September 06, 2006 at 07:18 PM (#2169454)
You take this position to avoid timelining, but if you are still making the decision about the relative rankings of two players based on the fact that one was already there and so he has priority, then you are simply reverse timelining, which is no more defensible than timelining.

With the splintered backlog, there has been a fear of a 'surprise' first ballot inductee. Someone like Faber or Ashburn. While those guys *may* have ended up being deserving in the long run, it certainly was alarming that they flew into the HOM with little resistance and perhaps not enough discussion. Its the fear of this that is perhaps causing players to be cautious with borderline newbies. If the older comp is an undersupported teddy bear (in my case Cravath or Doyle), there is not as much harm done -- (though as I think that out loud, that certainly borders on strategic voting).

One way to compensate for this are to periodically look back and reevaluate guys just one generation back. Were we too tough on Kiner, Pierce & Minoso? They were the new candidates of 20 years ago who may have been underrated by the same teddy-bear-clutching that we are discussing right now. There are no more new candidates from those eras in the pipeline so we should have an idea of how well represented they are (Howie posts the lists and the 50s are now done except for McCovey's rookie year). I've recently bumped up Pierce because I felt we were too tough on him (and I've always liked Kiner).

Another way to compensate is to re-evaluate old-timers as they percolate up to near the top of the backlog. Especially once they reach the top five. For example, Sewell is knocking on the door of the HOM. Are we sure he's better than guys from other eras, or are we just so used to voting for him? Same goes for Mendez.

Another thing to remember is that expansion brings more slots. We should have *more* HOM-ers from the expansion era than other eras. It sounds a bit strange because the HOF has been doing the opposite trend.
   32. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: September 06, 2006 at 08:23 PM (#2169577)
But it seems to me that if you don't see a difference between Bob Elliott and Brooks Robinson, you aren't looking hard enough.

Agree with Karl on this one. This could be a red herring since there's enough question about enough of Brooks's record that a resonable person could see enough similarity to rate them similarly. To put it differently, the difference bewteen Jud Wilson and Brooks Robinson is much bigger than the one between Elliot and Brooks Robinson. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the rating (obviously my ballot says I don't), but it's not like the difference is so big that I'm slack jawed over it.

I think the same post has also shown another similarity in my conceptual thinking with Karl, if not in execution:

RCAP depends on people valuing fielding correctly and not putting Mark Belanger at SS over someone who hit 40 OPS+ points higher. As we know, baseball execs aren't always rational and so RCAP sometimes merely reflects their irrationality.

This is a backdoor explanation, in a way, for why there will be more 3Bs and catchers and corners from the NL of 1960-1990 than SS. All the bats moved off the position because the CW of the time was that hitters just couldn't hack it at short. Which was pap of course. Who's to say Mike Schmidt couldn't have played short? He was rangy, smart, athletic, speedy for his size, and had quick reactions. Gee sounds like Ripken or A-Rod to me. Relying solely on RCAP to evaluate players within an era could lead to conclusions like that Dave Concepcion is a pretty good candidate. Or Pie Traynor. Or that Joe Sewell or Brooks Robinson are more impressive candidates than they actually are. Going back to Concepcion, if he's the best SS between Banks and Smith, what does that say about NL SS for twenty years? More than it does about Concepcion....
   33. Chris Cobb Posted: September 06, 2006 at 08:45 PM (#2169632)
But it seems to me that if you don't see a difference between Bob Elliott and Brooks Robinson, you aren't looking hard enough.

Dr. Chaleeko wrote:

Agree with Karl on this one. This could be a red herring since there's enough question about enough of Brooks's record that a resonable person could see enough similarity to rate them similarly.

You both assume that I meant that Brooks is obviously better :-) . Karlmagnus's rating of the pair actually supports my contention that they are not especially similar players.

It is surely possible for a reasonable person to rate them similarly (see the ballot of Murphy, John, for an easy-to-find example), but as a very large majority of reasonable people seem them as not especially similar in the context of our current pool of eligibles (a survey of the first 20 ballots cast in 1984 shows John as the only voter with Robinson and Elliott closer together than Vaux), I think it is justifiable to argue that Vaux take his conclusion that the two players are indistinguishable as evidence that he work on making finer distinctions.
   34. Dr. Vaux Posted: September 12, 2006 at 02:57 PM (#2174469)
I see the merit of all that's been said here. A ballot that consists entirely of outfielders and firstbasemen is clearly flawed. But whether to adjust by lowering my offensive and career-length standards is a quandry, since it could simply be that it's less likely for a second baseman or shortstop to be able to be as valuable over the course of his career as an outfielder or firstbaseman. Since the latter's contributions are more quantifiable than the former's as well, I'm afraid that I'm just going to have to lower my standards somewhat as to what is quantifiable. The only way that I can reasonably consider the unquantifiable, however, is to abide by what seems to be the consensus of other baseball historians as to the value of various players, be they defensively-oriented players or NeL players, whose relative absence from my ballot has also troubled me and been caused by quantifiability issues as well. But the reason that Quincy Trouppe made my ballot was that when I read his thread, the information and reasoning given there by our NeL experts made his case; so un- and semiquantifiable ideas and a certain consensus of such has influenced my voting. So I'm going to completely revamp my ballot to avoid either timelining or reverse-timlining, while factoring in some of the less quantifiable characteristics of certain players as expressed in their threads.
   35. sunnyday2 Posted: September 12, 2006 at 04:19 PM (#2174558)
Vaux, appreciate very much that you are going through a thought process some of us have had 3 years (real time) to go through. Ballot revamps for me come about every 15 years, not because they SHOULDN'T come more frequently than that, but who's got the time or energy?

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