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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, September 18, 2006

1985 Results: Backloggers Méndez, Freehan, and Sewell Finally Move Into the Hall of Merit!

After 54 ballots (the second longest wait after Clark Griffith and the longest for a Negro Leaguer), Cuban pitching ace José Méndez was elected to the Hall of Merit with 47% of all possible points. He is now our 26th Negro League selection.

In his fourth year of eligibility, Tiger star Bill Freehan took the second spot this “year” for immortality with 43% of all possible points.

Like Méndez, supreme contact hitter Joe Sewell also had to wait a long time before finally being elected (47 “years”). He earned 35% of all possible points.

Breaking the record set just last “year” by one, there were 87 candidates who found themselves on a ballot.

Rounding out the top-ten were: Billy Pierce (big move up!), Rube Waddell, Ralph Kiner, Minnie Minoso, Cupid Childs, Ken Boyer (first time in the top-ten), and Dobie Moore (back in the top-ten after 8 years!).

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1    3  José Méndez              621   37   8  4  5  1  1  2  3  2  2  1  2     2  1  3
 2    4  Bill Freehan             568   36   3  6  1  5  3  2  3  1  3  2  3  1  1  1  1
 3    5  Joe Sewell               459   30   5  2  2  2  3  1  4  1     2  1     3  3  1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 4    8  Billy Pierce             441   29   2  3  3     5  3  1  2  3  1  1     1  4   
 5    9  Rube Waddell             439   28   2  5  4  1  1     2  1  4  1  1  2  1  1  2
 6    6  Ralph Kiner              424   30   3  4     2  1  5     2  1  1  2     5  2  2
 7    7  Minnie Minoso            406   29   2  2  2  1  2     3  3  2  4  2  3  2  1   
 8   10  Cupid Childs             387   27      4  3  2  1  3  2     2  1  1  3  1  2  2
 9   14  Ken Boyer                363   29      1  1  2  4  3  1  3  1  4  1  1  2  1  4
10   11  Dobie Moore              349   22   2  3  4  1     1  2  1     2  1  1  2  2   
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   15  Nellie Fox               335   23      3  2  2     3  1  4  2  2     2     1  1
12   12  Jake Beckley             330   22   2  1  5  1  1  1  1     1     2  3  1  2  1
13   13  Cannonball Dick Redding  314   22   3  1  1  1  4  1  1  1     2  1     3     3
14   16  Jimmy Wynn               310   26         2  2  3  1  3     1     1  6  3  3  1
15   19  Quincy Trouppe           277   20         3  1  4     4        2  3     2     1
16   17  Hugh Duffy               268   20   2        3  1  2     4  1  1  1  1  2  1  1
17   21  Charlie Keller           263   18   4     1  2     1  2        2  1  1     3  1
18   23  Edd Roush                259   19      2  2  1        3  3  1     1  3  2     1
19   18  Charley Jones            254   16   2  3     3     1  2     1        2     1  1
20   25  Bucky Walters            243   17   1  3        1  1     3  1  3  2     1  1   
21   20  Pete Browning            234   15   1  2  3  1  1  1     1     1           2  2
22   22  George Van Haltren       201   14   2     1  2           3  1  1  1  2     1   
23   27  Gavy Cravath             188   15   1        1  1  3     2  1     1  1  2  1  1
24   24  Bob Johnson              184   13   1     1        3  1  1  2  2  2            
25   26  Mickey Welch             179   10   2  2        2  1  1     2                  
26   30T Alejandro Oms            178   14   1        1  2     3     1  1  2     1     2
27   29  Burleigh Grimes          173   13   1        2  2        3  1  1        1  1  1
28   28  Roger Bresnahan          170   13   1  1        1  1  1  1        5     1  1   
29   32  Tommy Leach              150   12         1  1  1  2     1        1  3  1  1   
30  n/e  Lou Brock                141   11   1  1           1  2     1  1  1           3
31   30T Norm Cash                123    9            2  1  2        1  2     1         
32   33  Orlando Cepeda           108   10            2     1           1  2  1     1  2
33   43  Dizzy Dean               107    9         1     1  1     1     1     1  1  1  1
34   34  Larry Doyle              102    6   1  1     1     1  1              1         
35   35  Wally Schang              92    7   1           1           1  1  2  1         
36   37  Bob Elliott               91    8                  1  1     1  2  1  2         
37   42  Vic Willis                84    7         1     1           1        2  2      
38   38  Ben Taylor                83    6         1  1        1     1        2         
39   39  John McGraw               82    5         2  1           1              1      
40   40  Pie Traynor               79    6      1           1  1     1        1        1
41   36  Tommy Bridges             75    7                  1        2  1  1  1        1
42   41  Phil Rizzuto              71    5         1  1              1  1     1         
43  n/e  Thurman Munson            65    7                  1           2  1           3
44   47  Elston Howard             56    7                              1        4  1  1
45   48  Addie Joss                54    5            1              1  1           2   
46   44  Jimmy Ryan                51    5                        1  1     1     2      
47   54  Carl Mays                 50    4               1     1  1                 1   
48   46  Sam Rice                  48    4                     2  1                 1   
49   52T Bill Monroe               46    4               1              1  1  1         
50T  51  Vern Stephens             44    4                        2           2         
50T  52T Ed Williamson             44    4                     1           3            
52   55  Dizzy Trout               43    3               1  1        1                  
53   45  Dutch Leonard             41    3            1           1     1               
54   56  Frank Howard              40    5                        1              1  1  2
55   63  Al Rosen                  40    4                  1        1              1  1
56   49T Rabbit Maranville         39    3   1                                   1  1   
57   59  Luis Aparicio             36    4                     1                 2     1
58   60  Ed Cicotte                34    3               1              1           1   
59T  57  Chuck Klein               34    2            2                                 
59T  49T Ernie Lombardi            34    2         1                 1                  
61   65  Tony Mullane              31    3                        1  1                 1
62   58  Dave Bancroft             27    3                                 2        1   
63   73T Bobby Veach               26    3                           1              2   
64   64  Frank Chance              26    2            1                       1         
65   69  Urban Shocker             23    2            1                                1
66   61T Lefty Gomez               22    2                  1                       1   
67   68  Jack Quinn                22    1         1                                    
68T  66T Fielder Jones             16    1               1                              
68T  61T Tony Oliva                16    1               1                              
70   77T George J. Burns           15    2                                       1  1   
71T  71T Fred Dunlap               13    1                        1                     
71T  70  Sam Leever                13    1                        1                     
73T  66T Artie Wilson              12    1                           1                  
73T  73T Wilbur Cooper             12    1                           1                  
73T  75T Gil Hodges                12    1                           1                  
73T  75T Virgil Trucks             12    1                           1                  
77   71T Don Newcombe              11    1                              1               
78   77T Sol White                 10    1                                 1            
79T  81T Dom DiMaggio               9    1                                    1         
79T  77T Hack Wilson                9    1                                    1         
81T  81T Jim Fregosi                7    1                                          1   
81T  81T Bob Friend                 7    1                                          1   
83T n/e  Wally Berger               6    1                                             1
83T n/e  Kiki Cuyler                6    1                                             1
83T n/e  George Kell                6    1                                             1
83T n/e  Billy Nash                 6    1                                             1
83T n/e  Vada Pinson                6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Bus Clarkson(85), Herman Long(77T), Bill Wright(81T).
Ballots Cast: 55

 

 

 

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 18, 2006 at 08:40 PM | 80 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:02 AM (#2181135)
Congrats to José, Bill, and Joe!

Waddell, Pierce, Kiner, and Minoso gave Sewell a run for his money, but he finally got the prize at the end.
   2. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:07 AM (#2181145)
HOF-not-HOM through 1985
 
1  Aparicio
Luis
2. Bancroft
Dave
3. Beckley
Jake
4  Bender
Chief
5  Bottomley
Jim
6  Bresnahan
Roger
7  Brock
Lou
8  Chance
Frank
9  Chesbro
Jack
10 Combs
Earle
11 Cuyler
Kiki
12 Dean
Dizzy
13 Duffy
Hugh
14 Evers
Johnny
15 Ferrell
Rick
16 Gomez
Lefty
17 Grimes
Burleigh
18 Hafey
Chick
19 Haines
Jesse
20 Hooper
Harry
21 Hoyt
Waite
22 Jackson
Travis
23 Johnson
Judy
24 Joss
Addie
25 Kell
George
26 Kelly
George
27 Kiner
Ralph
28 Klein
Chuck
29 Lindstrom
Freddie
30 Manush
Heinie
31 Maranville
Rabbit
32 Marquard
Rube
33 McCarthy
Tommy
34 McGraw
John 
35 Pennock
Herb
36 Rice
Sam
37 Roush
Edd
38 Schalk
Ray
39 Tinker
Joe
40 Traynor
Pie
41 Waddell
Rube
42 Waner
Lloyd
43 Welch
Mickey
44 Wilson
Hack
45 Youngs
Ross
 
HOM
-not-HOF
 
1  Allen
Dick 
2  Ashburn
Richie
3  Barnes
Ross
4  Beckwith
John
5  Bennett
Charlie
6  Brown
Ray
7  Brown
Willard
8  Bunning
Jim
9  Caruthers
Bob
10 Dahlen
Bill
11 Davis
George
12 Doby
Larry
13 Doerr
Bobby
14 Ferrell
Wes
15 Foster
Willie 
16 Freehan
Bill
17 Glasscock
Jack
18 Gordon
Joe
19 Gore
George
20 Grant
Frank
21 Groh
Heinie
22 Hack
Stan
23 Hill
Pete
24 Hines
Paul
25 Jackson
Joe*
26 JohnsonHome Run
27 Mackey
Biz
28 Magee
Sherry
29 McPhee
Bid
30 McVey
Cal
31 Méndez
José
32 Newhouser
Hal
33 Pearce
Dickey
34 Pike
Lip
35 Richardson
Hardy
36 Rogan
Bullet Joe
37 Santo
Ron
38 Santop
Louis
39 Sheckard
Jimmy
40 Start
Joe
41 Stearnes
Turkey
42 Stovey
Harry
43 Suttles
Mule
44 Sutton
Ezra
45 Torre
Joe
46 Torriente
Cristobal
47 Wells
Willie
48 White
Deacon
49 Williams
Billy
50 Williams
Smokey Joe
51 Wilson
Jud
 
*  not eligible for the HOF 
   3. sunnyday2 Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:15 AM (#2181165)
At 7:32 we didn't know for sure but there were 2 ballots yet to come. After 53 ballots I had Sewell still at #6.

Mendez and Freehan pulled away from a very tight race to that point after 30-some ballots. After 53 it was Mendez, Freehan, Kiner, Waddell, Pierce, Sewell and Minoso. All 5 of them (excluding Mendez and Freehan) were in the 3rd slot at one time or another over the last 15 ballots or so.

#1-2-5-6-7-8-10-11-13-17-18-19-21 are in my PHoM. Looking forward to doing a little more catching up again the next couple of years.
   4. Lemon Curry? Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:18 AM (#2181173)
HOMers sorted by the percentage of available points in the year of election. Players in bold were elected in their first year of eligibility.

As expected, this year's electees are all near the bottom of the list.

INNER CIRCLE, BABY!

100.0 - Cy Young (1917)
100.0 - Honus Wagner (1923)
100.0 - Walter Johnson (1933)
100.0 - Babe Ruth (1941)
100.0 - Lou Gehrig (1944)
100.0 - Lefty Grove (1947)
100.0 - Joe DiMaggio (1957)
100.0 - Ted Williams (1966)
100.0 - Stan Musial (1969)
100.0 - Mickey Mantle (1974)
100.0 - Willie Mays (1979)
100.0 - Hank Aaron (1982)

NO-BRAINERS (>95)

99.8 - Sam Crawford (1924)
99.7 - Dan Brouthers (1902)
99.5 - Jimmie Foxx (1951)
99.5 - Warren Spahn (1971)
99.4 - Pete Alexander (1936)
99.4 - Josh Gibson (1952)
99.3 - Ty Cobb (1934)
99.2 - Oscar Charleston (1943)
98.9 - Kid Nichols (1911)
98.8 - Nap Lajoie (1922)
98.7 - Bob Gibson (1981)
98.4 - Ed Delahanty (1909)
98.4 - Arky Vaughan (1954)
98.3 - Roy Campanella (1963)
97.9 - Charlie Gehringer (1948)
97.9 - Bob Feller (1962)
97.8 - Eddie Collins (1935)
96.9 - Turkey Stearnes (1946)
96.6 - Satchel Paige (1959)
96.5 - Christy Mathewson (1922)
95.8 - Rogers Hornsby (1941)
95.8 - Frank Robinson (1982)
95.7 - George Davis (1915)
95.7 - Carl Hubbell (1949)
95.4 - Eddie Mathews (1974)
95.3 - Paul Waner (1950)
95.3 - Mel Ott (1952)

EASY CHOICES (>85)

94.9 - Jesse Burkett (1912)
94.8 - Smokey Joe Williams (1936)
94.8 - Johnny Mize (1959)
94.7 - Robin Roberts (1972)
94.7 - Ernie Banks (1977)
94.6 - Duke Snider (1970)
94.5 - Yogi Berra (1969)
94.4 - Deacon White (1898)
94.0 - Paul Hines (1898)
94.0 - Jim O'Rourke (1899)
94.0 - Jackie Robinson (1962)
93.7 - Al Simmons (1946)
93.2 - Roger Connor (1903)
93.1 - Roberto Clemente (1978)
92.1 - Gabby Hartnett (1947)
92.0 - Louis Santop (1932)
91.9 - Pop Lloyd (1935)
91.9 - Al Kaline (1980)
91.7 - Luke Appling (1956)
91.5 - Bill Dickey (1953)
90.6 - Harry Heilmann (1937)
90.3 - Buck Leonard (1955)
90.0 - John Clarkson (1900)
89.1 - Billy Hamilton (1907)
89.1 - Hank Greenberg (1953)
88.9 - Bill Dahlen (1915)
88.3 - Mickey Cochrane (1943)
88.2 - Cristobal Torriente (1937)
87.7 - Ron Santo (1980)
87.7 - Harmon Killebrew (1981)
87.2 - Joe Cronin (1951)
86.7 - Frankie Frisch (1944)
85.2 - Cap Anson* (1903)
85.2 - Fred Clarke (1917)

* Six voters boycotted Anson in 1903.

SOMEWHAT DEBATABLE (>70)

84.0 - King Kelly (1899)
83.5 - Ray Brown (1955)
82.9 - Martin Dihigo (1950)
82.6 - Frank Baker (1928)
82.4 - Jack Glasscock (1904)
82.2 - Eddie Plank (1924)
82.0 - Tris Speaker (1934)
81.5 - Goose Goslin (1945)
79.9 - Bullet Rogan (1940)
79.5 - George Gore (1898)
79.1 - Whitey Ford (1973)
78.6 - Hal Newhouser (1960)
78.4 - Willie Wells (1954)
78.2 - Tim Keefe (1901)
76.9 - Zack Wheat (1933)
76.6 - Jud Wilson (1948)
76.2 - George Wright (1901)
75.6 - Ezra Sutton (1908)
75.5 - Hoyt Wilhelm (1978)
74.7 - Buck Ewing (1902)
74.5 - Bid McPhee (1913)
74.4 - Ed Walsh (1920)
74.4 - Joe Jackson (1927)
73.9 - Pud Galvin (1910)
73.5 - John Ward (1900)
73.5 - Cal McVey (1914)
73.4 - Al Spalding (1906)
73.3 - Willie Keeler (1919)
72.5 - Joe Start (1912)
71.7 - Charley Radbourn (1905)
71.3 - Pee Wee Reese (1964)
70.7 - Jimmy Collins (1921)

SPLIT DECISIONS (>50)

69.8 - Amos Rusie (1904)
69.2 - Elmer Flick (1918)
68.9 - Dick Allen (1983)
68.4 - Ross Barnes (1898)
68.3 - Juan Marichal (1980)
68.1 - Joe Kelley (1919)
68.0 - Brooks Robinson (1984)
67.3 - Mule Suttles (1956)
67.1 - Hardy Richardson (1905)
67.1 - Grant Johnson (1925)
66.8 - Mordecai Brown (1925)
66.8 - Ted Lyons (1949)
65.8 - Billy Williams (1983)
65.0 - Bill Foster (1945)
64.9 - Heinie Groh (1938)
63.2 - Harry Stovey (1916)
62.4 - Stan Coveleski (1938)
62.1 - Larry Doby (1965)
61.6 - Jimmy Sheckard (1930)
61.3 - Frank Grant (1926)
61.3 - Monte Irvin (1963)
61.0 - Bobby Wallace (1929)
60.9 - Charlie Bennett (1921)
60.9 - Enos Slaughter (1965)
60.7 - Joe McGinnity (1928)
60.2 - Sherry Magee (1926)
60.0 - Pete Hill (1927)
59.9 - Billy Herman (1958)
59.9 - Joe Torre (1984)
58.0 - John Beckwith (1957)
56.6 - Bob Caruthers (1930)
56.5 - Dazzy Vance (1942)
54.9 - Don Drysdale (1975)
54.6 - Sam Thompson (1929)
54.3 - Sandy Koufax (1972)
53.0 - Dickey Pearce (1931)

VERY SPLIT DECISIONS (<50)

49.1 - Early Wynn (1970)
48.6 - Rube Foster (1932)
48.6 - Stan Hack (1958)
48.5 - Lou Boudreau (1958)
47.0 - José Méndez (1985)
46.3 - Red Faber (1939)
45.6 - Max Carey (1939)
44.9 - Bill Terry (1942)
44.7 - Joe Medwick (1967)
43.0 - Bill Freehan (1985)
41.8 - Joe Gordon (1976)
41.5 - Bob Lemon (1967)
41.3 - Wes Ferrell (1964)
40.5 - Lip Pike (1940)
40.4 - Earl Averill (1961)
38.8 - Red Ruffing (1966)
38.7 - Eppa Rixey (1968)
38.2 - George Sisler (1979)
38.1 - Richie Ashburn (1968)
37.9 - Willard Brown (1976)
37.7 - Hughie Jennings (1960)
37.7 - Jim Bunning (1977)
36.8 - Cool Papa Bell (1973)
35.4 - Biz Mackey (1975)
34.8 - Joe Sewell (1985)
32.8 - Clark Griffith (1971)
32.8 - Bobby Doerr (1972)
   5. Lemon Curry? Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:22 AM (#2181180)
"After 54 ballots (breaking Hughie Jenning’s record by one)"

I think Clark Griffith would disagree with that statement... :-)
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:26 AM (#2181200)
I think Clark Griffith would disagree with that statement... :-)

Damn! Forgot about him.

Glad we have some lurkers who are on the ball. :-) Thanks!
   7. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:29 AM (#2181207)
Waddell appears to be in a stronger position than Pierce for '86, but I'm not placing any money on it.
   8. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:30 AM (#2181208)
Oh, if we're nitpicking, after all these years, doesn't Sewell deserve a sentence in the introduction?

And just curious, John, who was in 3rd place when you were grumbling about it in the ballot thread?
   9. OCF Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:34 AM (#2181212)
And just curious, John, who was in 3rd place when you were grumbling about it in the ballot thread?

That might have been Waddell. But then again it might have been Kiner.

----

he highest possible consensus score was a mere +3. The average consensus score was -15.0, not quite matching the record of -15.4 set in 1968. (There are some questions about how to translate the formula between elect-2 and elect-3 years; these may not strictly be comparable. It is likely that we'll break this record in 1987.

Some individual scores:

Got Melky: -3
Devin McCullen: -6
Ardo: -8
Howie Menckel: -9
Juan V: -9
andrew siegel: -9
Pedro Feliz N: -10
Esteban Rivera: -10
Tiboreau: -10
fra paolo: -10
...
Chris Cobb: -14
...
OCF: -14
...
Thane of Bagarth: -15 (median)
...
Jeff M: -20
Rusty Priske: -20
Daryn: -20
KJOK: -22
Eric C: -22
Joe Dimino: -22
John Murphy: -23
Patrick W: -24
yest: -25
karlmagnus: -26
rico vanian: -26

It was hard to be an outlier in either direction as there was so little consensus to agree or disagree with.
   10. Lemon Curry? Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:38 AM (#2181220)
Speaking of Waddell, he's likely to break Griffith's record within the next couple of "years". However, his reign might be short-lived if Cupid Childs is ever elected to the HOM.
   11. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:39 AM (#2181224)
Looks like Brock and Munson have their work cut out for them, while Hunter is a latter day Happy Jack Chesbro.
   12. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:42 AM (#2181230)
And just curious, John, who was in 3rd place when you were grumbling about it in the ballot thread?

That might have been Waddell. But then again it might have been Kiner.


No, it was Rube. I wasn't grumbling about it, BTW, just surprised that he was that close. Of course, since I didn't have a completed plaque for Waddell yet, Sewell's induction did make it a little easier for me to update the Plaque Room on time. :-D
   13. Mike Webber Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:50 AM (#2181244)
Is that weird single vote for Jack Quinn the strangest vote? I mean its out there right?
Love ya, Joe!
   14. Howie Menckel Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:54 AM (#2181255)
all-time 'votes points' thru 1985 - those still eligible in 1986 election are in CAPS. electees not in caps.

Beckley continues to march inexorably toward 1st, and he may be able to 'dodge' getting elected before it happens... Childs and Waddell pass Jennings to grab the 6-7 slots.. Sewell and Mendez 'retire' at No. 12-13... Bresnahan joins the top 20... Moore knocks fellow Negro Leaguer Mackey out of the all-time top 25... Pierce moves within 8 pts of the top 25 but may be running out of time.

TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 22571.5
BECKLEY 21999
DUFFY 21541.5
BROWNING 18589.5
Griffith 17924
CHILDS 17247
WADDELL 17121
Jennings 16976
WELCH 15411
Sisler 13892

Pike 13399
Sewell 12769
Mendez 12555
Thompson 12349
RYAN 11753.5
Bennett 11503
REDDING 11431
CJONES 11147
TLEACH 10982
BRESNAHAN 10952

Rixey 10789
Caruthers 10704
Beckwith 9896
H Stovey 9576
MOORE 8943,
Mackey 8930

OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Roush 8245, Doyle 7138, Kiner 6786, Cravath 6506, Monroe 6332, Grimes 6014, Walters 5386, Minoso 5303, Williamson 5281, Schang 5185, McGraw 4865, Trouppe 4302)

not quite
(Pierce 4294, Oms 4199, BJohnson 3654, Fox 3451, Joss 3371, Willis 3332, McCormick 3148X, Keller 2969, Chance 2792X, Elliott 2745, Tiernan 2686X)
(plus I need to check Ken Boyer for next time...)
   15. Daryn Posted: September 19, 2006 at 01:11 AM (#2181299)
I think we have had a single number one vote before. Was it Lombardi? Schang?
   16. jimd Posted: September 19, 2006 at 01:17 AM (#2181319)
BBWAA Voting for 1985

Name Votes PCT
Hoyt Wilhelm 331 83.80
Lou Brock 315 79.75

Nellie Fox 295 74.68
Billy Williams 252 63.80
Jim Bunning 214 54.18
Catfish Hunter 212 53.67
Roger Maris 128 32.41
Harvey Kuenn 125 31.65
Orlando Cepeda 114 28.86
Tony Oliva 114 28.86
Maury Wills 93 23.54
Bill Mazeroski 87 22.03
Lew Burdette 82 20.76
Mickey Lolich 78 19.75
Ken Boyer 68 17.22
Roy Face 62 15.70
Elston Howard 54 13.67
Ron Santo 53 13.42
Joe Torre 44 11.14
Don Larsen 32 8.10
Thurman Munson 32 8.10
Dick Allen 28 7.09
Curt Flood 28 7.09

Vada Pinson 19 4.81
Wilbur Wood 16 4.05
Harvey Haddix 15 3.80
Dave McNally 7 1.77
Ken Holtzman 4 1.01
Ron Fairly 3 0.76
Jim Lonborg 3 0.76
Andy Messersmith 3 0.76
Don Kessinger 2 0.51
Denny McLain 2 0.51
Jesus Alou 1 0.25
Rico Carty 1 0.25
Dock Ellis 1 0.25
Clay Carroll 0 0.00
Ed Kranepool 0 0.00
George Scott 0 0.00
Bobby Tolan 0 0.00
Roy White 0 0.00

The HOF grants a partial reprieve from the 5% rule. Freehan was not included.
Santo and Allen are the only two to survive the 2nd chance.
   17. jimd Posted: September 19, 2006 at 01:51 AM (#2181412)
Sewell originally debuted at 4th place in 1939, and then missed election on his 2nd try by only 13 points in 1940 to Lip Pike, who was elected on his 43rd try. It did not then seem likely that Sewell would participate in more elections than Pike, but he was finally elected this year on his 47th try.

With Sewell's election, the title of "broken shiny new toy" passes to Jimmy Ryan, who debuted at 8th in 1909, the highest debut that remains unelected to the HOM.
   18. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: September 19, 2006 at 02:27 AM (#2181475)
Well, gentlemen, I've been Jose Mendez's friend for a long time. I might have been his very best friend. Close to it at least. I'm still his friend, but the nice thing is that you can always make new friends. I'll miss voting for The Black Diamond in the highest non-NB position on my ballot year in and year out, but now I can look forward to the beginning of a fond new friendship with Bucky Walters or Billy Pierce or QT.

Still, the election of a guy you’ve voted for year in and out for fifty years is a cause for celebration and reflection. So to close out his long, long stay on my ballot, here’s a little highlight package of my voting history for my teddy bear, Jose Mendez. Jose, ... thanks for the memories.

Mendez reached eligibility in 1932, at which time he appeared on my ballot for the first time. I had only started to vote in 1930, and I was still working on the mechanics of my system.
9. Jose Mendez (X): I love the big peak, it gives his profile enough oomph to outrank Griffith and Foster when combined with some good shoulder years that militate against the dead-arm period.

Mendez slid off my ballot just two years later when the onslaught of Cobb, Speaker, Colllins, Alexander, Williams, and Torriente pushed him down. He didn’t appear again among my hot fifteen until 1937 where this comment portended much for him:

A lot of flux over the past couple weeks, and this week's no different as I reconsider my reconsiderations and try to get a better handle on the pitching and OF gluts.

15. Mendez: His big peak plus a couple more shoulder years gets him into the caboose slot on my ballot over Cooper. Could go either way.


He stayed at 15 through 1938, then in 1939, yet another revamping of my early, immature methods led me to rerank him in a most dramatic fashion:

I'm now a Win Shares voter. I understand its mechanics and flaws better than WARP's. I’m also balancing pitching and career with hitting and peak more than ever.

4. Mendez: Best pitching peak on the board, plus enough shoulder to make a career out of it.


My 1940 comments were truly prescient:
5. Jose Mendez: Big peak, and enough shoulder seasons to shoulder his way past the likes of Waddell.

Through the early 1940s he remained very high on my backlog list and between 4th and 7th on my ballots, superceded only by GVH and Duffy among all backloggers, a situation that would ultimately change.

1945 brought yet another revamp and this comment:
8. Jose Mendez: Last week: Right where he’s always been. This week: bumped down a couple pegs after seeing that CC’s caveats.

He dropped behind Geo J Burns and Eppa Rixey and John Beckwith and Mule Suttles too. In subsequent years, however, Gary A’s research would mitigate many of Chris’s concerns and help propel Mendez up my ballot and many others’ as well.

In 1946 he dropped to ninth and in my Oscar-based recap was the award for "Best Leading Pitcher in an Early 20th Century Cuban League …"

Rixey cleared out in 1947 with this note on his and Mendez’s shared comment:
9. Jose Mendez
10. Eppa Rixey
Fans of Dr. Chaleeko will note that I have revised these two hurlers downward somewhat, Rixey by several spots. I'm finally rethinking my pitching approach a bit.


Which of course led me to also rank him above Ted Lyons in 1948 (and later Red Ruffing and Early Wynn too)…but nonetheless I also ranked him above Wes Ferrell, a similarly inninged peak pitcher.

Gavy Cravath vaulted above Jose for a few years in the early 1950s, forcing Mendez into 10th on my ballot in 1950. The relationship between Mendez and Ferrell was duly noted with this pendant pair of comments:
10)Jose Mendez: Cuba’s answer to Wes Ferrell.
14) Wes Ferrell: America’s answer to Jose Mendez.


And mirrored in the 1952 comments for Mendez:
...if I had to have he or Wes Ferrell pitch one game to win the galaxy back from the clutches of evil, I’d pick the Black Diamond.

In 1953, I re-re-revamped my system. All those CFs and corner OFs started sliding downward. Cravath moved down a bit, GVH a few slots too. Duffy remained ahead, but otherwise, everyone above Jose (except Suttles) dropped below him. And other than Duffy all soon found election:
7. Jose Mendez: I'm reconsidering the relative importance of a pitcher's peak to his slot on my ballot. I think that I've probably underrated Mendez a bit, though I feel comfy with Dean off my ballot. Maybe more reconsideration is needed?

1955, saw a lot more confidence in my ranking:
7. Jose Mendez. Someone today comped him to Ed Walsh. That works well for me. Now add on that Mendez could hit his way out of a batting cage and you’ve got a very solid candidate who is in line (on my ballot) for impending induction (and is already in my pHOM).

Finally in 1956, I started to get a bit protective of Mendez:
7. Jose Mendez: Where's the love for him? Better than the several available peaktastic pitchers.

1957 was his first above 7th on my ballot in several years, and I got testier:
6. Jose Mendez. I understand the lack of certainty around Mendez's case, but any FOWF who haven't reconsidered Mendez in a while ought to. He's the man.

He rose to fourth in 1958 and third in 1960 as the frontlog cleared out in some of our hottest contested elections to that point. Duffy remained above him and Oms joined Hugh for a while in the mid 1950s. But finally in 1961, I came out of the proverbial closet and revealed my man crush on Jose Mendez:
1961 is my own personal HOM Year of the Pitcher. I've rejigged my ballot extensively AGAIN this year. The queries about the dearth of pitching and previous questions about balanced representation have made me look deep into my decision-making to figure out what the h*ll I'm doing with my ballots (and wouldn't you all like to know the answer to that one!). To make this story a little shorter, the answer is that I'm chronically over-rating OFs and chronically underrating Ps, plus I could use an infielder on this ballot.

1 Jose Mendez: Peaktastic pitching in addition to a plus bat, and versatility.


Jose never looked back. With Duffy and Oms dispatched (the latter realllly dispatched) and with my system taking essentially the form we see today, Mendez began his twenty-five year reign as the King of Doc C’s Backlog.

Mendez led the flotilla of peakish pitchers I’ve supported ever since. Ferrell, Pierce, even LeRoy Matlock for a time (and that’s one I’d like to know more about!). Walters, Lemon, you name ‘em. 1966 was the year Gary gave us the research on Mendez’s success against white professional teams in Cuba, information that strongly supported the MLEs in his thread.

I haven’t changed up my message about him too much since the mid 1960s: Great peak, hit pretty good, supported by the research. The ice cube that caused him to floweth over the edge of the tumbler was surely the HOF’s inclusion of him among its 17 inductees this year, giving us expert confirmation of what we all believed was true in our hearts.

I held out hope all the way for Jose, however—a faith rewarded with increasing support from a cross section of our electorate. But even as late as 1970 I had doubts and composed a deux et machina theory about his candidacy:
2. Jose Mendez: Stop me if you’ve heard this one before, but he’s chronically underranked and with any luck Chris Cobb and Gary A will soon write a breakthrough expose on how much better he is than we all think he even is.

In 1981, he placed second to Bob Gibson on my ballot, prompting me to offer a comparison that says a lot for how good Mendez’s peak really was:
1. Bob Gibson: Dominant peak/prime with plenty of career.
2. Jose Mendez: Dominant peak/prime with less career.


Now, today, I am proud to say that I’ve supported Mendez strongly for a long, long time. About 40–50 years actually. And while he did miss my ballot in two or three of the early, early years, and while he was usually at best “merely” the number one member of the backlog, he’s still been a fun candidate to support, and an extraordinary career to learn about and contemplate. I won’t claim the kind of victory that John Murphy could have claimed after Pearce’s election because I didn’t stump very hard for Mendez and because I didn’t do the heavy lifting of figuring his MLEs. But as an ardent, long-time supporter, I will say that I’m very grateful that the electorate has seen fit to honor his career with election to the HOM, and I’m extremely pleased that his name will, for the next twenty election cycles, be on our HOM not HOF list.
   19. Evan Posted: September 19, 2006 at 03:53 AM (#2181576)
I think we have had a single number one vote before. Was it Lombardi? Schang?

There were some Tommy Bond votes that came awfully close.
   20. Chris Fluit Posted: September 19, 2006 at 05:39 AM (#2181631)
I first posted these lists back in the 1973 Results Thread. Here they are again, updated with some of our more recent inductees.

Lowest Ranked Player Eventually Elected:

Dickey Pearce, 1898-1909, low: 31st in 1898, elected in 1931
Bob Caruthers, 1910-1913, low: 20th in 1911 and 1912, elected in 1930
Clark Griffith, 1914-1923, low: 22nd in 1923, elected in 1971
Rube Foster, 1924-1927, low: 23rd in 1924 and 1925, elected in 1932
Hughie Jennings, 1928-1931, low: 17th in 1928, elected in 1960
Jose Mendez, 1932-1955, low: 32nd in 1951, elected in 1985
Joe Gordon, 1956-1968, low: 33rd in 1957, elected in 1976
Joe Sewell, 1969-1985, low: 18th in 1969 and 1970, elected in 1985

(and here's what the list had looked like back in 1973, before the elections of Mendez, Gordon or Sewell)

Clark Griffith, 1935-1938, low: 13th in 1936
John Beckwith, 1939-1940, low: 14th in 1939, elected in 1957
Hughie Jennings, 1941-1944, low: 12th in 1943 and 1944
Wes Ferrell, 1945, 7th, elected in 1964
Hughie Jennings, 1946-1947, 9th in both years
Cool Papa Bell, 1948-1951, low: 17th in 1948, elected in 1973
Clark Griffith, 1952, 12th
Cool Papa Bell, 1953-1956, low: 17th in 1954
Bobby Doerr, 1957-1970, low: 24th in 1957, elected in 1972
Cool Papa Bell, 1971-1972, low: 6th in 1971

And the other side of the coin:

Highest Ranked Player Not Yet Elected:

Ed Williamson, 1898, 10th
Pete Browning, 1899-1906, high: 10th in 1906
Cupid Childs, 1907, 11th
Hugh Duffy, 1908, 10th
Jimmy Ryan, 1909, 8th
Hugh Duffy, 1910-1915, high: 5th in 1913
Rube Waddell, 1916-1922, high: 10th in 1918, 1919 and 1921
Jake Beckley, 1923-1924, high: 13th in 1924
George Van Haltren, 1925, 12th
Jake Beckley, 1926-1929, high: 7th in 1929
George Van Haltren, 1930-1933, high: 3rd in 1931 and 1932
Jake Beckley, 1934-1940, high: 6th in 1938
Tommy Leach, 1941, 8th
George Van Haltren, 1942, 7th
Jake Beckley, 1943, 8th
George Van Haltren, 1944-1945, high: 9th in 1944
Jake Beckley, 1946-1951, high: 11th in 1946 and 1947
George Van Haltren, 1952-1953, high: 14th in 1952
Jake Beckley, 1954-1958, high: 14th in 1958
George Van Haltren, 1959-1960, 12th
Jake Beckley, 1961, 11th
George Van Haltren, 1962-1970, high: 5th in 1968
Dick Redding, 1971, 8th
George Van Haltren, 1972, 7th
Dick Redding, 1973, 6th
Minnie Minoso, 1974-1976, high: 5th in 1976
Dick Redding, 1977, 5th
Ralph Kiner, 1978, 4th
Minnie Minoso, 1979, 4th

Ralph Kiner, 1980, 6th
Minnie Minoso, 1981, 7th
Ralph Kiner, 1982-1984, high: 6th in 1984
Billy Pierce, 1985, 4th
   21. Chris Fluit Posted: September 19, 2006 at 05:46 AM (#2181649)
Also, 26 different players received first place votes. That's the third highest total, trailing only the 28 of 1968 and the 27 of 1961. 1967 now comes in fourth with 25, while 1958 and 1975 are tied for 5th with 24.

These year's near-record setting class is Jose Mendez, Bill Freehan, Joe Sewell, Billy Pierce, Rube Waddell, Ralph Kiner, Minnie Minoso, Dobie Moore, Jake Beckley, Dick Redding, Hugh Duffy, Charlie Keller, Charley Jones, Bucky Walters, Pete Browning, George Van Haltren, Gavvy Cravath, Bob Johnson, Mickey Welch, Alejandro Oms, Burleigh Grimes, Roger Bresnahan, Lou Brock, Larry Doyle, Wally Schang and Rabbit Maranville.
   22. sunnyday2 Posted: September 19, 2006 at 08:04 AM (#2181729)
Jose Mendez was on my ballot at #6 in his first year of eligibility in 1932, 3 slots higher than where Doc had him. He slid off of my ballot, like Doc's, after a few years:

Mendez 1932-1939: 6-5-9-12-x-11-11-9

He dropped off in 1940, only getting back on again in 1952, by which time Doc is certainly a better friend to Mendez than I was. He remained on my ballot every year from 1952 until elected, however. His peak in the '50s was #7 in 1958. In the '60s he got as high as #6 in 1968, then was #6 again in 1970 and '71 before slumping back into the double digits for 10 years. He only made it into the single digits again and peaked again at #8 this year.

My top pitchers:

1932: Bond, Waddell, Mendez, Foster (elected)
1940: Rogan (elected), Bond, McCormick, Waddell
1952: Bond, Waddell, Mendez
1958: Bond, Waddell, Mendez, Joss
1968: Waddell, Mendez, Joss, Redding, Bond
1971: Mendez, Waddell, Bond, Redding, Joss
1985: Waddell, Mendez, Joss, Redding, Cicotte

All in all not as much movement as I remembered.

Bond was on my ballot 1906-17, 1927-40, 1942-74
Waddell 1930, 1932-36, 1938-85
Joss 1941-47, 1949-51, 1953, 1956-85
Redding 1937-39, 1960-74, 1985

Along with McCormick and Cicotte, since 1932 Gomez, Willis and H. Smith among non-elected pitchers have appeared on one or more ballot. Today all of this eligible pitchers rate:

1. Waddell
2. Joss
3. Redding
4. Cicotte
5. H. Smith
6. Bond
7. Willis
8. Gomez
9. McCormick

There are other pitchers who would rate ahead of some of these guys. Pitchers remain challenging, and this list seems a bit top-heavy on old-timers. I don't adjust much for workload, as you can see. It seems to me that that's the value that pitchers nowadays have--i.e. not much, because the workload is split up so many ways and into smaller pieces.

OTOH I've had plenty of pitchers on my ballot, but I'm also more in tune with the consensus on the modern pitchers than I was re. the old-timers.
   23. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: September 19, 2006 at 11:06 AM (#2181750)
Regarding Quinn . . . I call 'em like I see 'em :-)

Tons of career value there, eating innings and eating them well is incredibly valuable. Do it for a couple of decades and well, there you go . . .

Can someone explain how Freehan can finish 2nd and Munson 43rd? They're basically the same package. Freehan played a little longer and had the (slightly) higher peak, Munson had the better glove and higher career rate on offense. And it's not like Munson didn't have a peak - both have 3 years over 8 WARP (actually Freehan had one at 7.9, but who's counting?) - Freehan had the one monster year in 1968, but that's not enough to separate them by much.

I think they are separated by a hair, not 41 spots. That blows my mind more than anything else on this ballot this week.
   24. Max Parkinson Posted: September 19, 2006 at 11:21 AM (#2181752)
I agree completely - had them seven spots apart on my ballot (25 & 32). I think that if we elect every catcher who was as good as Freehan, we're going to have almost 30 in the HOM by the time this project is complete.
   25. Chris Cobb Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:05 PM (#2181764)
Munson will probably rise a bit: the electorate has become conservative with newcomers.

However, as my system sees it, the top 50 players are essentially no more than 5% above or below what will become the all-time in out line. Freehan is slightly above -- elected quickly. Munson is slightly below -- hardly sniffs a ballot.

Also, with Trouppe, Schang, and Bresnahan out there, it's quite possible for voters to have a couple of catchers ranked between Freehan and Munson, close in value as they are.

I don't think the electorate's placement of them is unreasonable, given the size of the pool.
   26. TomH Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:11 PM (#2181768)
I'll comment on Munson/Freehan in the 86 discussion thread
   27. sunnyday2 Posted: September 19, 2006 at 12:30 PM (#2181782)
Well, if everybody had Freehan 15th and Munson 16th...

Big gaps on the results chart don't necessarily mean that people see that big of a gap in their resumes.

Still for me the catchers are Freehan, E. Howard, Bresnahan, Trouppe, Mackey, Munson, Clapp, Schang, Lombardi. And I loved Munson as a player. I'm the guy who started the Munson was better than Fisk discussion because through 1979 he was.
   28. DanG Posted: September 19, 2006 at 01:09 PM (#2181806)
Well, if everybody had Freehan 15th and Munson 16th...

Big gaps on the results chart don't necessarily mean that people see that big of a gap in their resumes.


Exactly. Which is why we should've gone to a 20-man ballot, heh-heh.

Seriously, in our trial period for the extended ballot we didn't really have an election like this one, where being able to express finer distinctions could make the difference. As it was, we simply promoted the top three from the backlog in the elections of 1982-83-84.

The next three elections will be even moreso, as we mine deeper into the backlog. Again, I recommend to John that he post new player threads now for these important elections. Our result will be better if we start focusing now on Bonds, Bando, Smith, Tiant and Murcer.

Why has Waddell moved up so much in recent years? Is it new voters? In less than a decade he has passed Browning, Van Haltren, Childs, Moore, Boyer, Duffy, Redding, Beckley, Kiner and Minoso.
   29. Howie Menckel Posted: September 19, 2006 at 01:25 PM (#2181813)
I think Waddell's dominant peak is greater than any other pitcher left - when he was 3rd or 4th best, it was easy to leave him off.
Now, it's hard for me to picture him not getting a top 15 slot.

I actually have Pierce slightly ahead of Waddell (much longer prime/career, leveraged RP IP, maybe a slight timeline, etc.), but both are near the top of the ballot.

The biggest point, though, likely is the rejection of the idea that Waddell allowed an unusual amount of UER.
I have a slight hunch that his 'eccentricity' might have a slight role in his odd W-L record, but I don't see it as enough to really downgrade him at this point.
   30. DL from MN Posted: September 19, 2006 at 02:00 PM (#2181841)
2 points between Waddell and Pierce. Pierce will slide down a slot on my upcoming ballot to 3rd with McCovey coming on. Waddell will move up a slot with 2 people ahead of him getting elected. I haven't changed my rankings at all but that would result in a tie.
   31. DanG Posted: September 19, 2006 at 02:11 PM (#2181857)
The 1957 ballot holds the record, with 19 HoMers so far. Here are the top 34 that year. Is Rube next?

Joe DiMaggio
John Beckwith
Billy Herman
Lou Boudreau
Stan Hack
Joe Medwick
Red Ruffing
Hughie Jennings
Wes Ferrell
Biz Mackey
Earl Averill
Eppa Rixey
George Sisler
Clark Griffith

Jake Beckley
George Van Haltren
Cool Papa Bell
Hugh Duffy
Mickey Welch
Cupid Childs
Bobby Doerr
Joe Sewell

Pete Browning
Bucky Walters
Cannonball Dick Redding
Dobie Moore
Alejandro Oms
José Méndez
Charley Jones
Tommy Leach
Gavy Cravath
Burleigh Grimes
Joe Gordon
Rube Waddell
   32. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: September 19, 2006 at 02:30 PM (#2181873)
I don't know Joe, my system sees a bit of a gap between them. You mention WARP and they are fairly close in WARP (though Freehan's two best years are very good and he has three at or above 8.0) but WS also likes Freehan a lot. His five best years are 35,30,25,25,23 vs. 26,25,24,23,22 for Munson. This may be due to Freehan playing more games in season than Munson but that is something that I like out of a catcher. Add in that Freehan had a longer career and a longer prime for obvious reasons (as well as there being so many catchers in between) and I don't think we are wrong to like Freehan so much while placing Munson in the deep backlog.

I do hope that Harvey is reading this after his impassioned pleas for Freehan a few 'years' ago.
   33. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 19, 2006 at 02:47 PM (#2181892)
I do hope that Harvey is reading this after his impassioned pleas for Freehan a few 'years' ago.

Is there any other Hall out there that has honored Freehan as we have just done?
   34. DanG Posted: September 19, 2006 at 02:48 PM (#2181894)
Hopefully, we can send Freehan a congratulatory telegram or something. Everything I've heard about him says he's a really good guy, the sort who might appreciate the honor. This comes 24 years after his election to the Michigan Sports Hall of Fame.

Maybe in another 24 years the Coop will see it, too.
   35. DavidFoss Posted: September 19, 2006 at 03:09 PM (#2181910)
The biggest point, though, likely is the rejection of the idea that Waddell allowed an unusual amount of UER.

I was part of the wave of new Waddell support this year and voted for him for the first time. But I *still* think he gave up a lot of UER. Maybe it wasn't an 'unusual amount' but it was definitely high and also high relative to his peers. Also, the idea that a strikeout artist (eight K/9 titles) is giving up a lot of UER is head-scratching for sure. These types of pitchers are supposed to be more defense-independent!

What I came to realize was that Waddell was still an extremely effective pitcher. Taking 5-8 points off of his ERA+ still results in excellent peak and career rates and with almost 2960 IP, he's got enough meat to his career to place him above the short-career guys like Joss & Dean. So, head-scratching as it may be the Waddell's results were still HOM-worthy.
   36. DL from MN Posted: September 19, 2006 at 03:50 PM (#2181936)
Who is sending the "Santo" letter to Freehan?
   37. DanG Posted: September 19, 2006 at 05:16 PM (#2182012)
So far, one-sixth of the HoM (28 of 168) is not enshrined in the Coop in 2006. By Position:
P
Bob Caruthers
Wes Ferrell
C
Deacon White
Cal McVey
Charlie Bennett
Joe Torre
Bill Freehan
1B
Joe Start
Dick Allen
2B
Ross Barnes
Hardy Richardson
Joe Gordon
3B
Ezra Sutton
Heinie Groh
John Beckwith
Stan Hack
Ron Santo
SS
Dickey Pearce
Jack Glasscock
Bill Dahlen
Homerun Johnson
LF
Harry Stovey
Jimmy Sheckard
Sherry Magee
Joe Jackson
CF
Lip Pike
Paul Hines
George Gore
   38. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 19, 2006 at 05:25 PM (#2182021)
Who is sending the "Santo" letter to Freehan?

Joe would be the sender.
   39. DanG Posted: September 19, 2006 at 05:31 PM (#2182029)
20+ Years Waiting For Election

60 Griffith
54 Mendez
53 Jennings
47 Sewell
44 Sisler
43 Pike
34 Pearce
32 Caruthers
30 Rixey
28 Thompson
27 Mackey
26 Bell
23 Bennett
21 Ferrell
21 Gordon
   40. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: September 19, 2006 at 05:56 PM (#2182055)
DanG,

That's a pretty freakin' good group of guys. If that team played the stiffs that are HOF not HOM, they would be outmatched. Curiously, we are now at a cross currents in the HOM-not-HOF thing, I think.

We are about to enter a period (or maybe we're in it) where the VC clamps down on its selections, and where the BBWAA veers away from medium-length starting pitchers and borderliners of any stripe, and the HOF starts catching up to some of our guys (like Rich Ashburn and Larry Doby). They narrow some of the distinction between our institutions a bit, especially in their Negro League and 19th Century elections in the 1990s.

But simultaneously, while the Coop is electing fewer and fewer guys with tightening standards (on the whole, mind you), we're electing more classes of 3, and we're looking at contemporary players with different eyes. The phenomenon of underrated 1960s-1980s guys winning HOM-not-HOF status is showing up in droves in recent elections. Allen, Santo, Freehan, Torre all being prime examples but hardly stopping there with Grich, Evans, Evans, Bando, Simmons, Tenace, and others in the queue for the next few elections, with Wynn placing very highly in this year's election, and with many others whose careers are still underway now playing (Parrish, Trammell, Whitaker, Raines, Dawson, Stieb) who we will also have a very different outlook on than the HOF.

So oddly enough, even as the Hall becomes a little more like us, we yet become more dissimilar to it. Which, I suppose, reveals in a way what the Frisch guys really did the Hall.
   41. DanG Posted: September 19, 2006 at 07:28 PM (#2182133)
Breaking the record set just last “year” by one, there were 87 candidates who found themselves on a ballot.

In addition, we set a new record with 43 guys receiving at least 4.5% of possible points. Previously, we had 42 in 1960, 1961 and 1978. There were also 7 candidates with at least 29.5%, the most in ten years, meaning the consenus has coalesced, somewhat, around the top of the ballot.

There are no newbies from 1984-85 in the HoM. The last back-to-back years with no new HoMers is 1937-38. Edd Roush remains the best hope from those years. The only three-year HoMerless stretch is 1929-31, with GJ Burns probably the best candidate.

OTOH, 1980-83 brought on 12 new HoMers in four years. The last time this occured was 1950-53.

The 1970's, so far, is a drought decade, with only 13 new HoMers. The 1960's aren't much better with 14. The 1950's have 24; the 1940's have 25; the 1930's have 19; the 1920's have 14, the 1910's have 13; the 1900's have 14; pre-1900 has 20.
   42. Al Peterson Posted: September 19, 2006 at 08:32 PM (#2182175)
Also, with Joe Jackson on the HOM not HOF team there is a distinct possibility that the game will be thrown :)
   43. DavidFoss Posted: September 19, 2006 at 08:33 PM (#2182176)
It is pretty much assumed by definition that HOM voters prefer the players they have voted for.

Well, the top five on the list are HOF-ers. (Griffith, Mendez, Jennings, Sewell, Sisler). Four others down the list are also in the HOF (Rixey, Thompson, Mackey, Bell). Many of those HOF-ers had to wait a long time to get inducted into Coop as well, so I don't think a comparison with HOF-not-HOM-ers is really valid for that list. Its just an interesting list of some candidacies that survived the backlog grind for many many years.
   44. jimd Posted: September 19, 2006 at 09:10 PM (#2182200)
60 Griffith
54 Mendez
53 Jennings
47 Sewell
44 Sisler
43 Pike
34 Pearce
32 Caruthers
30 Rixey
28 Thompson
27 Mackey
26 Bell
23 Bennett
21 Ferrell
21 Gordon


It's also a well-balanced team positionally.
(Kinda surpising for 14 names picked by an independent criterion.)
This team would easily win the pennant almost any year.

OF: Pike, Bell, Thompson
(somebody's gotta play left, and Pike's the natural choice)
IF: Sewell, Jennings, Gordon, Pearce
(somebody's gotta sit; my guess it's Pearce)
1B: Sisler
Ca: Mackey, Bennett
SP: Griffith, Mendez, Caruthers, Rixey, Ferrell
(Who needs a DH?)
   45. DavidFoss Posted: September 19, 2006 at 09:26 PM (#2182208)
Well, the top five on the list are HOF-ers.

I realize now that Dr C was referring to post #37 and not #39. Duh to me! ;-)
   46. DavidFoss Posted: September 19, 2006 at 09:32 PM (#2182212)
Here is the enshrined in the Coop in 2006 but not in HOM roster. Some of these guys have a shot here yet.

C Bresnahan, Roger
C Ferrell, Rick
C Schalk, Ray

1B Beckley, Jake
1B Bottomley, Jim
1B Cepeda, Orlando
1B Chance, Frank
1B Kelly, George
1B Taylor, Ben

2B Evers, Johnny
2B Fox, Nellie
2B Lazzeri, Tony
2B Mazeroski, Bill
2B Schoendienst, Red
2B White, Sol

SS Aparicio, Luis
SS Bancroft, Dave
SS Jackson, Travis
SS Maranville, Rabbit
SS Rizzuto, Phil
SS Tinker, Joe

3B Dandridge, Ray
3B Johnson, Judy
3B Kell, George
3B Lindstrom, Freddie
3B McGraw, John
3B Traynor, Pie

OF Brock, Lou
OF Combs, Earle
OF Cuyler, Kiki
OF Duffy, Hugh
OF Hafey, Chick
OF Hooper, Harry
OF Kiner, Ralph
OF Klein, Chuck
OF Manush, Heinie
OF McCarthy, Tommy
OF Rice, Sam
OF Roush, Edd
OF Waner, Lloyd
OF Wilson, Hack
OF Youngs, Ross

P Bender, Chief
P Chesbro, Jack
P Cooper, Andy
P Day, Leon
P Dean, Dizzy
P Gomez, Lefty
P Grimes, Burleigh
P Haines, Jesse
P Hoyt, Waite
P Joss, Addie
P Marquard, Rube
P Pennock, Herb
P Smith, Hilton
P Waddell, Rube
P Welch, Mickey
P Willis, Vic
   47. jimd Posted: September 19, 2006 at 10:20 PM (#2182269)
I think we have had a single number one vote before. Was it Lombardi? Schang?

There were some Tommy Bond votes that came awfully close.


Solo Votes-to-Elect:
1939 2nd Tommy Bond
1939 2nd Lave Cross
1958 3rd Pie Traynor
1964 2nd Leroy Matlock
1965 2nd Leroy Matlock
1967 2nd Leroy Matlock
1968 2nd Leroy Matlock
1985 3rd Jack Quinn

I couldn't find a single #1, but there have been single #2's, and a couple of single #3s in elect-3 years.
   48. OCF Posted: September 19, 2006 at 11:24 PM (#2182328)
SP: Griffith, Mendez, Caruthers, Rixey, Ferrell
(Who needs a DH?)


Rixey is the weak link among the five, with a career OPS+ of 22 and no games played at any position other than pitcher. Griffith had a 69 career OPS+ and games scattered throughout his career in which he played other positions. Ferrell was the slugging PH (OPS+ 100) with a few games in the outfield, and both Caruthers and Mendez had entire seasons as full-time position players.
   49. jimd Posted: September 19, 2006 at 11:46 PM (#2182356)
There are 45 HOF-not-HOMers. There are 51 HOM-not-HOFers.
There are also 117 HOM-and-HOFers.
This has been larger than the sum of the differences since 1977.

Of those 117, 91 were elected to the HOM "first",
14 to both the same year, and 12 were elected to the HOF "first".
Of those 12, 6 were first-ballot HOMers that were elected to the HOF "first"
due to differences in eligibility (no formal waiting time for
Ruth, Gehrig, Hubbell, Ott, and DiMaggio, and a waiver for Clemente).
Brooks Robinson was a first-ballot HOFer and a second-ballot HOMer.
Sisler was elected by the BBWAA early in the HOF voting, took much longer here.
Jennings, Rixey, Griffith, and Sewell became VC selections before HOM election.
   50. rawagman Posted: September 20, 2006 at 04:22 AM (#2182733)
When I first started here, I saw that Ben Taylor was getting single 3rd place votes (not sure from whom). I believe my first year here was a vote 3 year.
Anyways, I had never heard much about Ben, so did some research. Now, I am one of Ben Taylor's best friends!
   51. ronw Posted: September 20, 2006 at 03:02 PM (#2182949)
DanG said:

Here is the enshrined in the Coop in 2006 but not in HOM roster. Some of these guys have a shot here yet.

P Chesbro, Jack


Of course, Hall of Famer Happy Jack Chesbro says, "Woo-hoo! DanG said I have a shot!"
   52. DanG Posted: September 20, 2006 at 03:59 PM (#2183007)
"Woo-hoo! DanG said I have a shot!"

Yeah, right. And a beer!

Sorry to break it to ya, but that was David Foss who said it.
   53. DavidFoss Posted: September 20, 2006 at 04:59 PM (#2183073)
Sorry to break it to ya, but that was David Foss who said it.

:-)

I thought about posting a truncated list with the obvious mistakes like Kelly & McCarthy omitted, but then I didn't know where to draw the line. There are some HOF2006-not-HOM1985 guys who are high up in our backlog and appear likely to be inducted.

Oops... just noticed that I forgot Lombardi. (probably because he went into coop right next 'year')
   54. jimd Posted: September 20, 2006 at 06:19 PM (#2183173)
When I first started here, I saw that Ben Taylor was getting single 3rd place votes

As far as I can determine, Ben Taylor has always appeared on multiple ballots in every election since he first became eligibile. His support has never dwindled to the "single voter" level.
   55. rawagman Posted: September 20, 2006 at 06:40 PM (#2183196)
jimd, I checked it - you were right. Taylor received two votes in my first year in the project. I'm still glad to see him getting more acclaim (6!!!)
   56. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: September 20, 2006 at 09:50 PM (#2183392)
"Who is sending the "Santo" letter to Freehan?

Joe would be the sender."


Anyone know how to contact him? Can send me an email . . . probably shouldn't post here. Same for Joe Torre and Dick Allen?
   57. DL from MN Posted: September 20, 2006 at 10:20 PM (#2183422)
I'd go through the Tigers for Freehan (he just did a celebrity softball game for them) or the University of Michigan.

Joe Torre - just send to:

Joe Torre
Yankee Stadium
Bronx, NY 10451

Dick Allen - I'd send it to the Phillies, he still works with them on the RBI program. Otherwise, contact his biographer - twhitaker@philadelphiaweekly.com.
   58. Howie Menckel Posted: September 20, 2006 at 11:39 PM (#2183486)
I can help with the Torre thing - email me, Joe...
   59. Paul Wendt Posted: September 21, 2006 at 02:13 AM (#2183708)
The phenomenon of underrated 1960s-1980s guys winning HOM-not-HOF status is showing up in droves in recent elections. Allen, Santo, Freehan, Torre all being prime examples but hardly stopping there with Grich, Evans, Evans, Bando, Simmons, Tenace,

There is one outfielder in the bunch and some part-time 1Bmen. No shortstop and one 2Bman. Four 3Bmen and four catchers of whom half moved to 1B.
--

They narrow some of the distinction between our institutions a bit, especially in their Negro League and 19th Century elections in the 1990s.

The Coop elected seven Negro Leagues players (one each year) and three 19th Century players (Davis, Dahlen, McPhee). The latter are HOMers but some of the Negro Leagues will not be elected here. Indeed, iirc, one of them has never appeared on a ballot.
--

Regarding Freehan rank 2 and Munson rank 43, Chris Cobb suggested that that difference may be the difference between #200 and #250 on the group's overall alltime ranking. For what it's worth,
Through 2001, that is the difference between 287 win shares and 268 Win Shares.

More data:
Rank : WS : BFW : POW
150 : 313 : 24.1 : 30.3
200 : 287 : 20.7 : 25.5
250 : 268 : 18.0 : 22.4
300 : 253 : 14.9 : 20.4

By the way, 201 players have 20.7 BFW (no pitching); 91 have 20.7 PW (pitching); 294 have 20.7 POW (comprehensive Palmer value). The same counts up at the "24.1 level" are 150, 65, 214.
   60. Adam Schafer Posted: September 21, 2006 at 02:24 AM (#2183727)
I have Freehan's address and actually wrote to him before the last election and gave him a little heads up about our project, gave him the link to this site, showed him last years election results and informed him that odds were he'd be elected by us this "year". He sent me an autograph back, but made no comments about our project. Let me know if you would like the address.
   61. Howie Menckel Posted: September 21, 2006 at 02:30 AM (#2183737)
Adam,
Great work, but that suggests an 'autograph mill.'

Might well be worth a good heads-up to the Tigers PR person - not a great time of year, as they are overstressed.
Theoretically, the newspapers can't posibly write enough Tiger-related stories.
Maybe we ask Joe if that's also a good route..
   62. DanG Posted: September 21, 2006 at 02:44 AM (#2183751)
The Coop elected seven Negro Leagues players (one each year) and three 19th Century players (Davis, Dahlen, McPhee).

Actually, only two in those years (1995-2001). The Coop has yet to discover Dahlen.
   63. fra paolo Posted: September 21, 2006 at 01:16 PM (#2183934)
Might well be worth a good heads-up to the Tigers PR person

You know, I'd try to contact the Tigers broadcasters, Dan Dickerson and Jim Price, direct. I think they occasionally give out an e-mail address during the broadcasts. Or even the guys on the Big Show (I forget their names) at WXYT. Jim Price is always boasting about how catchers are the best ballplayers, and I'm sure he'd see this as more evidence. If Joe can wave around his SABR credentials, so much the better for our chances. You never know what might come out of that, maybe a telephone interview, and it might get picked up by other team's broadcasters once there's a breakthrough with one, now that we're increasingly likely to elect living ballplayers. . News organizations are always after stories, especially if they appear to be from “responsible people”. SABR conventions always get a write-up in the local press, don't they? HoMer voters can call themselves "a private group of baseball scholars, many of whom are members of the Society of American Baseball Research, who discuss the merits of ballplayers throughout history to create an alternative Hall of Fame. They've seen fit to award membership of their Hall of Merit to one of the great Tigers of the 1968 pennant winners, catcher Bill Freehan…" etc. I can see/hear it now: “So, Joe, what other Tiger greats have made the Hall of Merit?” "Why did you draw a better conclusion to the Hall of Fame?"
   64. yest Posted: September 22, 2006 at 05:28 AM (#2184786)
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Brooks Robinson, Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Lou Brock, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Ray Dandridge
1989
Red Schoendienst
1991
Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
   65. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: September 22, 2006 at 07:12 AM (#2184803)
Emails sent to Howie and Adam . . . fra paolo, any ideas for where to get that information? Bummer too, Tigers were in Baltimore this week, but I didn't work any games there. And I missed Santo and the Cubs when they were in DC right after Santo's election, or I would have mentioned it to him personally if I could have run into him.
   66. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: September 22, 2006 at 01:52 PM (#2184881)
Or even the guys on the Big Show

Ugh, is the afternoon drive-time sports station program in every market called "The Big Show"? (usually featuring someone called the Big (Something)?)

Sports Radio: We are the downfall of the American male
   67. DL from MN Posted: September 22, 2006 at 05:46 PM (#2185152)
No, the afternoon show in Mpls (Bumper to Bumper) is pretty good on KFAN. Not just sports either.
   68. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: September 22, 2006 at 07:08 PM (#2185229)
Not just sports either.

[potentially offensive and inappropriate rant]
Although, admitedly, this is one of my pet peeves. I'm pretty much never interested in Joe Sportsradio's opinion on matters of war, peace, economics, or social/cultural activity, and I'm definitely not interested in his discussing celebs and stuff. If I wanted that I'd turn to NPR (no I don't drive a volvo or VW) or my local news station and formulate my own opinions about current events. To use a current name on my local station...do I really want Fred Smerlas' or Steve Diosce's slant on the day's news? Or Dick Radatz or Rico Petrocelli's? No, just in the same way that I don't want Koppel, Cokie, Limbaugh, Franken, or Colter to start telling me about the delicacies of the sacrifice bunt. Or maybe George Will, but I never could get past the TLR chapter in his book for reasons that non-As/non-Cards fan should appreciate.

The morning drive guys in Boston are very political and very conservative, and they do politics all the time. Drives me batty: not because i don't agree with them (OK, that's a big part of it), but because they offer no opposing viewpoint, or they only ridicule it, and what passes for witty political insight is just more of the same trite one-liners we've all heard. And usually they deal with national and social issues with an even worse batch of half-baked generalizations and broad-brush tarring than they do with sports stuff. This isn't Bill James thinking on the page about ideas of gov't and economics or considering the historical roots of professionalism and its effects on how we look at ourselves and our jobs---these guys leave the listener no room to question (let alone digest) their conclusions...hey, just like when they talk sports! It's just the high-horse Hannity/Limbaugh stuff that goes for entertainment these days, rattling invisible sabers over stuff that matters not a whit when foxes are robbing the henhouses, civil liberties are being dealt away like playing cards, and the world's ecosystems are approaching a frothy boil. Anyway the news-talk-radio pros do it better than them, so why bother?

Yuck.

[/potentially offensive and inappropriate rant]

[no offense if this is your perferred form of entertainment. or if you like the boston morning guys. or if you think i'm a egg-headed snob. and no offense to DL, most important. it's just an opp to go off on something that drives me batty.]
   69. karlmagnus Posted: September 22, 2006 at 07:33 PM (#2185256)
You are an egg-headed snob, Dr. C, but you could always trying taking public transport to work and reading the WSJ/New York Times while on the T. :-)
   70. rawagman Posted: September 22, 2006 at 08:13 PM (#2185313)
Your car doesn't have a CD player? MP3's?
   71. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: September 22, 2006 at 08:13 PM (#2185314)
You are an egg-headed snob, Dr. C, but you could always trying taking public transport to work and reading the WSJ/New York Times while on the T. :-)

OK, replace WSJ with The Nation, and I might consider it.... ; )
   72. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: September 22, 2006 at 08:18 PM (#2185324)
Your car doesn't have a CD player?

Thankfully it does.
   73. sunnyday2 Posted: September 22, 2006 at 09:37 PM (#2185439)
karl will be surprised to know that I subscribe to the WSJ and read it every day.

The edit page is the best political comedy available since I don't have cable and don't see Colbert. It's just that Colbert is trying to be funny.
   74. Rick A. Posted: September 24, 2006 at 01:33 AM (#2186283)
not quite
(Pierce 4294, Oms 4199, BJohnson 3654, Fox 3451, Joss 3371, Willis 3332, McCormick 3148X, Keller 2969, Chance 2792X, Elliott 2745, Tiernan 2686X)
(plus I need to check Ken Boyer for next time...)


Howie,

I have Boyer with 2857.
Also I have Chance at 2882. He's been getting votes these last few years, that I haven't seen totaled on your list.
   75. Howie Menckel Posted: September 24, 2006 at 02:06 AM (#2186292)
Thanks as always, Rick A, true purveyor of those lists....
   76. Rick A. Posted: September 25, 2006 at 01:50 AM (#2186787)
Howie,

Thanks for the compliment, but keeping track of this one list doesn't compare with all the lists that you maintain and post after every election. Thanks for taking the time to update and post these lists as often as you do.
   77. Paul Wendt Posted: September 25, 2006 at 03:35 AM (#2186828)
DanG Posted: September 20, 2006 at 10:44 PM (#2183751)
The Coop elected seven Negro Leagues players (one each year) and three 19th Century players (Davis, Dahlen, McPhee).

Actually, only two in those years (1995-2001). The Coop has yet to discover Dahlen.


Oops, yes.
(The Vets did elect more 19ers, but they plumbed for managers Hanlon and Selee. The Blue Ribbon Cmte of SABR members had recommended only Hulbert from management.)

--
SABR conventions always get a write-up in the local press, don't they?

Yes, often as not making fun of the organization and its members.
poorly dressed get-a-lifers.

HoMer voters can call themselves "a private group of baseball scholars, many of whom are members of the Society of American Baseball Research, who discuss the merits of ballplayers throughout history to create an alternative Hall of Fame. They've seen fit to award membership of their Hall of Merit to one of the great Tigers of the 1968 pennant winners, catcher Bill Freehan" etc. I can see/hear it now: “So, Joe, what other Tiger greats have made the Hall of Merit?” "Why did you draw a better conclusion to the Hall of Fame?"

It's crucial that the HOM is equivalent in size. I hope everyone includes that in outside HOM conversations. So Freehan takes the place of someone in the Coop, approximately. Without that point, who knows, you may be honoring everyone honored by any club or city.
   78. Howie Menckel Posted: September 25, 2006 at 03:43 AM (#2186833)
I am 'efforting' the Torre notification via Joe, who can be elusive....
   79. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: September 25, 2006 at 08:20 AM (#2186894)
Sorry Howie - was at a wedding out of town this weekend . . . I replied to your note a few hours ago . . . sorry for the delay!

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