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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, November 27, 2006

1990 Results: Backloggers Eat the Dust of Morgan, Palmer, and Jenkins!

In his first year of eligibility, legendary second baseman Joe Morgan easily won the top spot for Hall of Merit immortality with 99% of all possible points. He was the #1 choice on 55 of the 56 ballots cast and now has the second most vote points ever with 1,336 (Hank Aaron is #1 with 1,344).

Ace Oriole hurler and new candidate himself Jim Palmer earned a hefty 89% of all possible points.

Last but not least, star pitcher Fergie Jenkins picked up an impressive 83% of all possible points to claim the third spot for induction this “year.” He also becomes the first Canadian player to be so honored.

Rounding out the top-ten were: Ken Boyer, Jimmy Wynn, Nellie Fox, Dobie Moore, Pete Browning, Charlie Keller (first time in the top-ten!), and Edd Roush.

This election tied the record set in 1934 and 1982 with the most voters casting a ballot with 56.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Joe Morgan              1336   56  55           1                              
 2  n/e  Jim Palmer              1203   56   1 31 15  4  3        1                 1   
 3    4  Fergie Jenkins          1116   55     13 27  6  3  2     2           1  1      
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 4    5  Ken Boyer                365   33            2  2  4  1  3  2  1  5  4  5  1  3
 5    6  Jimmy Wynn               341   29         1  2  2  3  2  3  2  3  3  1  1  1  5
 6    7  Nellie Fox               332   26         1  2  3  3  3     5  1  3  2  2     1
 7    8  Dobie Moore              314   22      1  3  2  2  3  1  2  1  3        2  1  1
 8   10  Pete Browning            291   22      1     2  4  3  2     2     3  3  2      
 9   15  Charlie Keller           288   20      3  1  3  1  1  2  1  2  1  1  1  1     2
10    9  Edd Roush                286   23            2  5     5  2  1     2  1  1  3  1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   14  Quincy Trouppe           279   23         1  1  4  1     2  1  5  1  4  1  2   
12   12  Jake Beckley             273   21      1  1  3  1  2  2  1  1  1  2  3     2  1
13   11  Charley Jones            265   17      1  2  1  4  3  1  1  1  3               
14   13  Cannonball Dick Redding  250   20            4     1  2  4  1  2  2  2  1  1   
15   16  Bucky Walters            241   20            4        3  1  3  3  1  2  1  1  1
16   17  Hugh Duffy               202   16         1     1  3        5  3     2  1      
17   19  Bob Johnson              195   16            2  1  3  2     1  2     1  1  3   
18   18  Gavvy Cravath            191   19            2     3           2  1  2  2  4  3
19   21  George Van Haltren       178   14            1  3     1  4     1  2  1     1   
20   24  Roger Bresnahan          168   14      1     2           3  2     1  2  1     2
21   20  Alejandro Oms            165   15            1  1     1  3  1     2  2  1  3   
22   23  Tommy Leach              161   14                  5  1     3     1        2  2
23   22  Orlando Cepeda           155   14               1  2  3  1     1     1  1  2  2
24   25  Burleigh Grimes          143   11         1  1     2  1     2  1  1     1  1   
25   28  Dizzy Dean               125   10         2  1     1  1           1        1  3
26   29  Lou Brock                124   10      1     1  1     1        2  1     1  2   
27   30  Luis Tiant               116   13            1  1                    4  2  1  4
28   26  Norm Cash                113   10               1  1  1  1  1  1        4      
29   27  Mickey Welch             103    8            1     2  1  1     2           1   
30   32  Bobby Bonds               98    9                     1  3     1  2     1     1
31   31  Larry Doyle               98    7            2     2     2              1      
32  n/e  Ken Singleton             93   10               1     1        1     2     4  1
33   36  Vic Willis                86    9                     2     1  1        2  1  2
34   38T Reggie Smith              80    8                     1  1  1  1  1        2  1
35   33  Tommy Bridges             79    7                        2     3  2            
36T  51T Dave Bancroft             71    6      1              1     1        1     1  1
36T  34  Carl Mays                 71    6                     3  1           1     1   
38   45T Addie Joss                68    6            1           1  1  1        1  1   
39   37  Ben Taylor                67    6               2                 1  1  2      
40   42T Pie Traynor               66    5      1              1     1     1        1   
41   47T Bob Elliott               62    7                        1     1     1  2  1  1
42   44  Chuck Klein               62    6            1  1                       2  1  1
43   40  Elston Howard             61    6                        1     1  3        1   
44T  41  Phil Rizzuto              60    5            1           1  1     1     1      
44T  35  Wally Schang              60    5      1                    1     1  1        1
46   42T John McGraw               59    4               2  1        1                  
47   53  Jimmy Ryan                53    6                     1     1        1        3
48   47T Vern Stephens             51    5                        1     1     3         
49   38T Thurman Munson            51    4               1        1  1     1            
50   50  Sal Bando                 50    6                              2        2     2
51   45T Al Rosen                  49    4                  1  1           2            
52   55  Frank Howard              47    5                  1                 2  1     1
53   51T Bill Monroe               43    4               1                 2        1   
54   49  Tony Oliva                42    3               1  1           1               
55   54  Ed Williamson             36    3                     1     1     1            
56T  58T Jim Kaat                  34    3               1           1                 1
56T  60  Ernie Lombardi            34    3                           1  2               
58   65  Bobby Veach               30    4                                       2  2   
59   58T Ed Cicotte                30    2                  2                           
60T  62T Frank Chance              29    3                           1  1              1
60T  57  Gene Tenace               29    3                     1                 1  1   
62   56  Sam Rice                  28    3                        1              1  1   
63   61  Dizzy Trout               26    2                     1     1                  
64   67  Rabbit Maranville         23    3                                    1  1     1
65T  62T Luis Aparicio             23    2                        1        1            
65T  62T Lefty Gomez               23    2                     1              1         
67T  66  Don Newcombe              21    2                              1  1            
67T  70T Urban Shocker             21    2                     1                    1   
69   77T Tony Mullane              18    2                           1                 1
70   69  George J. Burns           16    2                                       2      
71   68  Jack Quinn                16    1               1                              
72   70T Bill Mazeroski            15    2                                       1  1   
73T  70T Wilbur Cooper             14    1                     1                        
73T  70T Sparky Lyle               14    1                     1                        
75T  70T Fielder Jones             13    1                        1                     
75T  75T Dutch Leonard             13    1                        1                     
75T  75T Cecil Travis              13    1                        1                     
78  n/e  Bus Clarkson              12    2                                             2
79T  77T Artie Wilson              12    1                           1                  
79T  77T Sam Leever                12    1                           1                  
79T  77T Mickey Vernon             12    1                           1                  
82T  82T Hack Wilson               10    1                                 1            
82T  82T Tony Lazzeri              10    1                                 1            
82T  82T Virgil Trucks             10    1                                 1            
85T  85  Kiki Cuyler                9    1                                    1         
85T  81  Fred Dunlap                9    1                                    1         
87   86T Herman Long                7    1                                          1   
88T n/e  Jim Fregosi                6    1                                             1
88T n/e  George Kell                6    1                                             1
88T n/e  Bobby Murcer               6    1                                             1
88T  86T Sol White                  6    1                                             1
Ballots Cast: 56
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 27, 2006 at 06:09 PM | 56 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 28, 2006 at 02:10 AM (#2246946)
Congratulations to Joe, Jim, and Ferguson!

Nice to see Joe with the second most votes. Almost makes up for his lack of unanimity.

HOF-not-HOM through 1990
 
1  Aparicio
Luis
2. Bancroft
Dave
3. Beckley
Jake
4  Bender
Chief
5  Bottomley
Jim
6  Bresnahan
Roger
7  Brock
Lou
8  Chance
Frank
9  Chesbro
Jack
10 Combs
Earle
11 Cuyler
Kiki
12 Dandridge
Ray
13 Dean
Dizzy
14 Duffy
Hugh
15 Evers
Johnny
16 Ferrell
Rick
17 Gomez
Lefty
18 Grimes
Burleigh
19 Hafey
Chick
20 Haines
Jesse
21 Hooper
Harry
22 Hoyt
Waite
23 Hunter
Catfish
24 Jackson
Travis
25 Johnson
Judy
26 Joss
Addie
27 Kell
George
28 Kelly
George
29 Klein
Chuck
30 Lindstrom
Freddie
31 Lombardi
Ernie
32 Manush
Heinie
33 Maranville
Rabbit
34 Marquard
Rube
35 McCarthy
Tommy
36 McGraw
John 
37 Pennock
Herb
38 Rice
Sam
39 Roush
Edd
40 Schalk
Ray
41 Schoendienst
Red
42 Tinker
Joe
43 Traynor
Pie
44 Waner
Lloyd
45 Welch
Mickey
46 Wilson
Hack
47 Youngs
Ross
 
HOM
-not-HOF
 
1  Allen
Dick 
2  Ashburn
Richie
3  Barnes
Ross
4  Beckwith
John
5  Bennett
Charlie
6  Brown
Ray
7  Brown
Willard
8  Bunning
Jim
9  Caruthers
Bob
10 Childs
Cupid
11 Dahlen
Bill
12 Davis
George
13 Doby
Larry
14 Ferrell
Wes
15 Foster
Willie 
16 Freehan
Bill
17 Glasscock
Jack
18 Gordon
Joe
19 Gore
George
20 Grant
Frank
21 Groh
Heinie
22 Hack
Stan
23 Hill
Pete
24 Hines
Paul
25 Jackson
Joe*
26 JenkinsFergie
27 Johnson
Home Run
28 Mackey
Biz
29 Magee
Sherry
30 McPhee
Bid
31 McVey
Cal
32 Méndez
José
33 Minoso
Minnie
34 Newhouser
Hal
35 Pearce
Dickey
36 Perry
Gaylord
37 Pierce
Billy
38 Pike
Lip
39 Richardson
Hardy
40 Rogan
Bullet Joe
41 Santo
Ron
42 Santop
Louis
43 Sheckard
Jimmy
44 Start
Joe
45 Stearnes
Turkey
46 Stovey
Harry
47 Suttles
Mule
48 Sutton
Ezra
49 Torre
Joe
50 Torriente
Cristobal
51 Wells
Willie
52 White
Deacon
53 Williams
Smokey Joe
54 Wilson
Jud
 
*  not eligible for the HOF 
   2. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: November 28, 2006 at 02:17 AM (#2246950)
Who's the joker who had Morgan fifth?
   3. Mike Emeigh Posted: November 28, 2006 at 02:24 AM (#2246953)
Who's the joker who had Morgan fifth?


Go read the ballot thread, where this was discussed at some length.

-- MWE
   4. Chris Cobb Posted: November 28, 2006 at 02:26 AM (#2246956)
If you're really curious, I'd suggest reading the ballot thread. Posts 11-50 or so include the ballot in question and the ensuing critical discussion of the placement in question.
   5. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 28, 2006 at 02:47 AM (#2246968)
Keller received 54 more votes this election, which is impressive. It's been a slow climb into the top-ten, but he finally made it.
   6. Juan V Posted: November 28, 2006 at 02:56 AM (#2246979)
Funny that such a climb didn´t happen during the backlog rush of the last "years".
   7. OCF Posted: November 28, 2006 at 03:06 AM (#2246993)
Missing voter: Ardo

New voters: Craig K, rdfc.

Average consensus score: +4.3
Highest possible consensus score: +17

Howie Menckel: +11
Jim Sp: +10
Esteban Rivera: +10
mulder & scully: +10
Andrew M: +10
Rob Wood: +9
Devin McCullen: +9
AJM: +9
Sean Gilman: +9
...
dan b: +5
OCF: +5 (medians)
...
Daryn: +1
Joe Dimino: +1
Rick A: +1
Rusty Priske: +1
John Murphy: 0
KJOK: 0
rdfc: -1
EricC: -2
'zop: -2
karlmagnus: -2
Adam Schafer: -3
fra paolo: -5 (Jenkins not on ballot)
Mark Donelson: -6 (Jenkins 5, Palmer 8)
yest: -10 (Morgan 5, Jenkins 12)
   8. CraigK Posted: November 28, 2006 at 03:26 AM (#2247008)
Well, nice to see I didn't screw up too badly.

:)
   9. sunnyday2 Posted: November 28, 2006 at 04:00 AM (#2247029)
I really miss the good old days when my consensus score was one of the lowest, but that was largely a 19C phenomenon. I fairly orthodox on the 20C.

Sorry to see that karl is slipping also.
   10. OCF Posted: November 28, 2006 at 07:47 AM (#2247188)
Here's a "career" perspective on consensus scores. The system goes back to 1921, so I have 70 years of data. I've gone back over that 70-year history, and done the following: subtracted from each year's score the mean score for the electorate for that year, then summed up those numbers. I've got three numbers to report for each individual: "Years", which is how many years of participation that voter has, "Total", which is the total number of consensus points above or below that mean over the voter's career, and "Rate" which is simply the total divided by the years. I've sorted this chart by "Total", which has the effect of bunching the short-time participants in the middle.


Voter               Years Total  Rate
Howie Menckel        70   
+471   +6.7
Chris Cobb           70   
+358   +5.1
TomH                 70   
+322   +4.6
andrew siegel        70   
+299   +4.3
Mark S 
(jschmeagol)  56   +253   +4.5
favre                67   
+253   +3.8
Devin McCullen       70   
+252   +3.6
Dan G                69   
+243   +3.5
Tiboreau             44   
+239   +5.4
OCF                  70   
+236   +3.4
Andrew M             55   
+232   +4.2
Pedro Feliz Navidad  70   
+190   +2.7
dan b                70   
+176   +2.5
Esteban Rivera       70   
+170   +2.4
Rusty Priske         70   
+157   +2.2
Rob Wood             70   
+153   +2.2
Ardo                 26   
+146   +5.6
Ken Fischer          63   
+137   +2.2
Brad G               44   
+135   +3.1
Chris J 
(dag nabbit23   +120   +5.2
SWW                  56   
+115   +2.1
Adam Schafer         68   
+109   +1.6
Trevor P             39   
+104   +2.7
Sean Gilman          70    
+90   +1.3
Get Melky
!           10    +84   +8.4
David Foss           68    
+82   +1.2
Philip               23    
+79   +3.4
Al Peterson          70    
+78   +1.1
Carl G 
(Goetz)       15    +63   +4.2
Chris Fluit          18    
+62   +3.4
RMc                   7    
+53   +7.5
Daryn                70    
+52   +0.7
Michael Bass         53    
+45   +0.8
Juan V                9    
+43   +4.7
ronw 
(Ron Wargo)     70    +38   +0.5
AJM                  23    
+37   +1.6
James Newburg        19    
+30   +1.6
Buddha               13    
+29   +2.3
Sean M                5    
+25   +4.9
Lennox HC             2    
+18   +8.9
DL from MN           23    
+17   +0.7
Tom D                 3    
+10   +3.2
TheGoodSamaritan     13     
+8   +0.7
Dan Rosenheck        15     
+6   +0.4
Bryce B 
(Tanketra)    4     +4   +0.9
Eric Enders           5     
+2   +0.5
stephen               5     
+1   +0.3
Craig K               1     
+1   +1.2
Brad Harris           9     
+1   +0.1
caspian88             3      0   
-0.1
Craig B               2     
-3   -1.4
Bleacher              2     
-3   -1.6
rdfc                  1     
-5   -5.3
mdb1mdb1 
(Martin)    25     -7   -0.3
Michael D            14     
-7   -0.5
Zapatero              2     
-8   -3.8
Brent                60     
-8   -0.1
Thane of Bagarth     59    
-10   -0.2
Yardape               6    
-10   -1.7
Casey Elston          1    
-11  -11.3
Joe Dimino           69    
-13   -0.2
Clint                 2    
-51  -10.4
'zop                 11    -23   -2.1
fra paolo            10    -25   -2.5
David C. Jones       10    -26   -2.6
Brian H              14    -30   -2.1
rawagman             19    -32   -1.7
Seaver 1969           3    -32  -10.7
Mike Webber          47    -43   -0.9
Vaux                  7    -77  -11.0
Max Parkinson        53    -78   -1.5
Jeff M               70    -85   -1.2
rico vanian          13    -97   -7.5
Patrick W            68    -98   -1.4
PhillyBooster        44   -100   -2.3
jhwinfrey            27   -108   -4.0
Eric Chalek          61   -108   -1.8
robc                 24   -112   -4.7
Mark Donelson        33   -112   -3.4
Rick A               70   -161   -2.3
Guapo                16   -192  -12.0
jimd                 70   -200   -2.9
Jim Sp               70   -208   -3.0
sunnyday2 (marc)     67   -221   -3.3
Gadfly               27   -258   -9.6
mulder & scully      56   -262   -4.7
Dolf Lucky (Mark)    54   -294   -5.4
John Murphy          70   -360   -5.1
EricC                70   -464   -6.6
KJOK                 69   -501   -7.3
karlmagnus           70   -669   -9.6
yest                 67   -743  -11.1 
   11. Raoul Duke Posted: November 28, 2006 at 08:47 AM (#2247203)
I've been trying to catch up and read all the backlogs but answer me one question (because this seems like a forum I would enjoy being part of and want to know what y'all think): what about relievers/firemen/closers/whatever? Seems to be unfair to me to have a role in baseball that many baseball types (players/managers/GMs/media) recognize as important and then be summarily dismissed when it comes time to evaluate their careers and possible HOF merits (which are non-sensical/non-quantifiable, I know)? It just does not seem right to a guy who would have given 10 years off of his life to be Goose Gossage circa 77/78 . . .

Sorry if that sounds stupid.
   12. TomH Posted: November 28, 2006 at 01:29 PM (#2247218)
Roaul, check out the debate (and voting) on Rollie Fingers the next 2 weeks and see what you think. He and Goose will be very interesting candidates. Before their retirements, not sure what other bullpen aces we would wish to consider.
   13. sunnyday2 Posted: November 28, 2006 at 02:07 PM (#2247225)
Re. Goose Gossage--a no-brainer IMO. And RD hits the nail on the head. It is hard to justify a reliever based on the numbers of innings they pitch. But it's been an important role pretty much through my career as a baseball fan--i.e. beginning around 1960 or so (okay, a little before that). So--since 3 relievers conveniently separate themselves from the pack pretty clearly--I think 3 is the right number of players who were active through 1991.

As for Raoul Duke, I hope you wouldn't join and participate just to advocate for Goose Gossage. "Single issue politics."
   14. sunnyday2 Posted: November 28, 2006 at 02:10 PM (#2247227)
PS. Thanks for the consensus data, O. I feel better. I mean, my rate (-3.3) is not particularly extreme anymore, but coupled with the fact that I have been voting from the very beginning, I am pleased that my cumulative dissenting is still "down there."
   15. Howie Menckel Posted: November 28, 2006 at 02:26 PM (#2247233)
I win!


Ok, not really.
But since y'all love my picks so much (;), how 'bout taking another look at Bob Elliott, my main outlier on my ballot? Let's boost my consensus score even more!
   16. Howie Menckel Posted: November 28, 2006 at 02:45 PM (#2247244)
And GVH hangs onto the lead - by an incredible margin of a HALF-PT, after more than 75 years of balloting for both!.... Congrats to Browning, the 4th member of the 20,000-pt club...Redding and CJones move up to 12th and 15th, respectively... Bresnahan extends his lead over Leach from 6 to 13 pts.. Roush bounces Harry Stovey (9576) out of the top 25.

all-time 'votes points' thru 1990 - those still eligible in 1991 election are in CAPS. electees not in caps.


TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 23512.5
BECKLEY 23512
DUFFY 22813.5
BROWNING 20003.5
Childs 18484
Griffith 17924
Waddell 17596
Jennings 16976
WELCH 16020
Sisler 13892

Pike 13399
REDDING 12849
Sewell 12769
Mendez 12555
CJONES 12540
Thompson 12349
RYAN 12022.5
BRESNAHAN 11765
TLEACH 11752
Bennett 11503

Rixey 10789
Caruthers 10704
MOORE 10517
Beckwith 9896
ROUSH 9699

OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Doyle 7555, Cravath 7534, Grimes 6779, Walters 6619, Monroe 6564, Trouppe 5715, Schang 5584, Williamson 5478, McGraw 5211, Fox 5175, Oms 5039, Boyer 4736, BJohnson 4614)

not quite
(Keller 4342)
   17. sunnyday2 Posted: November 28, 2006 at 03:05 PM (#2247268)
The 10,000 Club is backloggers, by definition, at least in consensus. Obviously, each of us has some of these guys as better than than that. My list in order from best to worst:

PHoMers

1. Jennings
2. Moore
3. Caruthers
4. Sisler
5. Browning
6. Waddell
7. Childs
8. Mendez
9. C. Jones
10. Thompson

11. Pike
12. Bennett
13. Thompson
14. Redding
15. Griffith

16. Rixey

Not PHoM, but at least on ballot at one time or another

17. Sewell--still a possibility
18. Duffy--fading
19. GVH--no longer any chance of PHoM or of ballot from here on down
20. Ryan

Not PHoM/never on my ballot

21. Bresnahan
22. Leach
23. Beckley--I now have all 3 of these guys ahead of GVH and Ryan, but no chance of PHoM or ballot

I also have 7 of the 16 others listed in my PHoM. Roush, Fox and Williamson are the best of that lot.
   18. DL from MN Posted: November 28, 2006 at 03:53 PM (#2247318)
Did someone tally 16 & 17 votes for Boyer, Fox and Wynn? I'm curious if that would change placements.
   19. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: November 28, 2006 at 05:08 PM (#2247425)
OCF, nice chart. I look positively medianesque by your rate measure! It looks, from a very cursory inspection, that there might be some correlation between voting tenure and consensus. It looks like the most consensified voters are also disproportionately longer tenured. Is this accurate on my part, or just a result of undigested inspection?
   20. DL from MN Posted: November 28, 2006 at 06:43 PM (#2247517)
The longer you've been around, the more high consensus elections you've participated in. Alternately, the people who have been around 70 elections elected everyone who is in.
   21. sunnyday2 Posted: November 28, 2006 at 07:25 PM (#2247560)
And the low consensus short-timers might have been discouraged that their faves were not gonna make it.
   22. OCF Posted: November 28, 2006 at 07:25 PM (#2247561)
Eric and DL: you're both missing the point. Look at the very bottom of the list, from Rick A down, and notice how many long-timers are there. Since I was subtracting the average for each year, there's no up-or-down advantage to having been around for high-consensus elections. In fact, a 1934-type election tends to shrink the spread and pack everyone into the middle. (Reality check: what "1934-type" elections? 1934 was sui generis.) The fact that I sorted by total tended, for obvious reasons, to group the short-timers in the middle and spin the long-timers out to the edges.

Now, there are two effects that put somwhat more long-timers near the top. The first is that the destribution is skewed; contrarians like yest and karlmagnus can be further below the average than anyone can manage to be above it. The other is that we've had several high-friction short-timers (notably Gadfly, Guapo, and Vaux) who drag the average down and move the long-timers up in contrast.
   23. sunnyday2 Posted: November 28, 2006 at 07:45 PM (#2247584)
high-friction

(emphasis mine ;-)
   24. DavidFoss Posted: November 28, 2006 at 07:52 PM (#2247594)
sui generis

Cool! There's my run-to-the-dictionary moment for the day.

"Latin expression, literally meaning of its own kind/genus or unique in its characteristics"

(Also an early 70s Argentinian rock band forms by the merging of the bands "To Walk Spanish" and "The Century Indignation".)
   25. jimd Posted: November 29, 2006 at 12:24 AM (#2247880)
Edited version of the "consensus scores career list", split into quartiles.
Only includes those present for 90% of the elections covered (63 minimum):

Median 1.25, Mean 0.5

Voter Years Total Rate
Howie Menckel 70 +471 +6.7
Chris Cobb 70 +358 +5.1
TomH 70 +322 +4.6
andrew siegel 70 +299 +4.3
favre 67 +253 +3.8
Devin McCullen 70 +252 +3.6
Dan G 69 +243 +3.5
OCF 70 +236 +3.4

Pedro Feliz Navidad 70 +190 +2.7
dan b 70 +176 +2.5
Esteban Rivera 70 +170 +2.4
Rusty Priske 70 +157 +2.2
Rob Wood 70 +153 +2.2
Ken Fischer 63 +137 +2.2
Adam Schafer 68 +109 +1.6
Sean Gilman 70 +90 +1.3

David Foss 68 +82 +1.2
Al Peterson 70 +78 +1.1
Daryn 70 +52 +0.7
ronw (Ron Wargo) 70 +38 +0.5
Joe Dimino 69 -13 -0.2
Jeff M 70 -85 -1.2
Patrick W 68 -98 -1.4
Rick A 70 -161 -2.3

jimd 70 -200 -2.9
Jim Sp 70 -208 -3.0
sunnyday2 (marc) 67 -221 -3.3
John Murphy 70 -360 -5.1
EricC 70 -464 -6.6
KJOK 69 -501 -7.3
karlmagnus 70 -669 -9.6
yest 67 -743 -11.1 [\pre]
   26. jimd Posted: November 29, 2006 at 12:41 AM (#2247897)
Sorry, the table didn't take.

I don't understand what went wrong so I won't try it again.
   27. jimd Posted: November 29, 2006 at 12:43 AM (#2247901)
The font's messed up too.

Let's see if that fixes it.
   28. DavidFoss Posted: November 29, 2006 at 12:56 AM (#2247918)
Voter               Years Total  Rate

Howie Menckel        70   
+471   +6.7
Chris Cobb           70   
+358   +5.1
TomH                 70   
+322   +4.6
andrew siegel        70   
+299   +4.3
favre                67   
+253   +3.8
Devin McCullen       70   
+252   +3.6
Dan G                69   
+243   +3.5
OCF                  70   
+236   +3.4

Pedro Feliz Navidad  70   
+190   +2.7
dan b                70   
+176   +2.5
Esteban Rivera       70   
+170   +2.4
Rusty Priske         70   
+157   +2.2
Rob Wood             70   
+153   +2.2
Ken Fischer          63   
+137   +2.2
Adam Schafer         68   
+109   +1.6
Sean Gilman          70    
+90   +1.3

David Foss           68    
+82   +1.2
Al Peterson          70    
+78   +1.1
Daryn                70    
+52   +0.7
ronw 
(Ron Wargo)     70    +38   +0.5
Joe Dimino           69    
-13   -0.2
Jeff M               70    
-85   -1.2
Patrick W            68    
-98   -1.4
Rick A               70   
-161   -2.3

jimd                 70   
-200   -2.9
Jim Sp               70   
-208   -3.0
sunnyday2 
(marc)     67   -221   -3.3
John Murphy          70   
-360   -5.1
EricC                70   
-464   -6.6
KJOK                 69   
-501   -7.3
karlmagnus           70   
-669   -9.6
yest                 67   
-743  -11.1 
   29. OCF Posted: November 29, 2006 at 12:58 AM (#2247920)
Jimd's post, fixed, relaxing the participation requirement slightly to include Dr. Chaleeko:

Voter               Years Total  Rate
Howie Menckel        70   
+471   +6.7
Chris Cobb           70   
+358   +5.1
TomH                 70   
+322   +4.6
andrew siegel        70   
+299   +4.3
Mark S 
(jschmeagol)  56   +253   +4.5
favre                67   
+253   +3.8
Devin McCullen       70   
+252   +3.6
Dan G                69   
+243   +3.5
OCF                  70   
+236   +3.4

Pedro Feliz Navidad  70   
+190   +2.7
dan b                70   
+176   +2.5
Esteban Rivera       70   
+170   +2.4
Rusty Priske         70   
+157   +2.2
Rob Wood             70   
+153   +2.2
Ken Fischer          63   
+137   +2.2
Brad G               44   
+135   +3.1
Adam Schafer         68   
+109   +1.6
Sean Gilman          70    
+90   +1.3

David Foss           68    
+82   +1.2
Al Peterson          70    
+78   +1.1
Daryn                70    
+52   +0.7
ronw 
(Ron Wargo)     70    +38   +0.5
Joe Dimino           69    
-13   -0.2
Jeff M               70    
-85   -1.2
Patrick W            68    
-98   -1.4
Eric Chalek          61   
-108   -1.8
Rick A               70   
-161   -2.3

jimd                 70   
-200   -2.9
Jim Sp               70   
-208   -3.0
sunnyday2 
(marc)     67   -221   -3.3
John Murphy          70   
-360   -5.1
EricC                70   
-464   -6.6
KJOK                 69   
-501   -7.3
karlmagnus           70   
-669   -9.6
yest                 67   
-743  -11.1 
   30. OCF Posted: November 29, 2006 at 12:59 AM (#2247922)
That was redundant.
   31. DavidFoss Posted: November 29, 2006 at 12:59 AM (#2247923)
My guess is that you had some tab-characters in there. Fill with spaces (using a fixed-width font to line up).
I used the [ code ] tag instead of the [ pre ] tag which makes it blue (with green & red accents). I suppose it doesn't matter if you use code or pre, but there's a code button so I used that.
   32. DavidFoss Posted: November 29, 2006 at 01:01 AM (#2247927)
That was redundant.

I concur. (ironically) :-)
   33. jimd Posted: November 29, 2006 at 01:18 AM (#2247949)
My guess is that you had some tab-characters in there.

No tabs. I know not to use them.

It was a copy of OCF's original post, pasted into Notepad, and edited there.
Copied back into the post box, pre and /pre tags added, then submitted.
Not sure what the conversion script did, but it added 'code' at the front
but not the end. I had to /code it myself to get the thread font back to normal.

Could using pre instead of code be the problem?

Thanks for fixing it David, but you need to add three more voters to keep the quartiles the same size ;-)
   34. ronw Posted: November 29, 2006 at 02:04 AM (#2247993)
Jimd's post, fixed, relaxing the participation requirement slightly to include Dr. Chaleeko:


Part me wants to accept Chaleeko into our quartile because that is what the consensus wants. Another part of me doesn't want anything to do with him.

Great, now I just put myself in the middle again. I'll never make a seasonal OCF chart.
   35. sunnyday2 Posted: November 29, 2006 at 02:07 AM (#2247997)
I like that a lot better--6th from the bottom!
   36. Raoul Duke Posted: November 29, 2006 at 06:40 AM (#2248204)
No single issue here - lifelong baseball fan (though prejudiced towards pitchers) and look forward to discussing any and all baseball players with intelligent fans. Goose just jumped to mind when I first was brave enough to post on this forum. Y'all seem to be a little more in-depth than I am, so I'll be reading, learning and trying to get up to speed. :->
   37. jingoist Posted: November 29, 2006 at 08:54 AM (#2248262)
RD....oh, they're in-depth type guys here for sure.
These guys will absolutely amaze you with their advanced mathematical and analysis skills and they're all marvelous debaters and know their way around the internet.
They're also the kindest, most respectful group you'll likely meet on a blog site anywhere.
So stick around; I've been a lurker, part-timer poster since about 1910 and have learned a lot.

On another note; sad to say but I must agree with sunnyday2 that the troika of GVH, Duffy and Ryan look like they're destined to be on the outside looking in.
That 1889 Chicago team with all 3 in the outfield simutaneously must have been fun to watch.
Each guy scored 125+ runs that season; they stole 125 bases combined and drove in more that 240 runs in a 132 game season.
Having 3 borderline HoM guys in the same outfield must have been great for the fans.
   38. karlmagnus Posted: November 29, 2006 at 01:32 PM (#2248288)
Oh I dunno, jingoist, I don't want him to think we're wimps -- we're not that polite. After all, every time I mention J... B.... a huge shower of rotten tomatoes hurls in my direction!

That 1889 Chicago team had Anson too, albeit with a slightly down year for him (134 OPS+)By the standards of that era, however, it had very mediocre pitching with nobody winning more than 16 games.
   39. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: November 29, 2006 at 03:39 PM (#2248358)
Part me wants to accept Chaleeko into our quartile because that is what the consensus wants. Another part of me doesn't want anything to do with him.

OCF, you were very kind to include me in the chart, and I am touched. But Wargo takes the cake with this line. Thanks for the chuckle, Ron.

Oh I dunno, jingoist, I don't want him to think we're wimps -- we're not that polite. After all, every time I mention J... B.... a huge shower of rotten tomatoes hurls in my direction!

Hey, wait a sec, Karl. Let's get some facts straight. Sometimes I hurl putrid peaches, plums, or cucumbers. ; )
   40. TomH Posted: November 29, 2006 at 03:59 PM (#2248378)
splat!
   41. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: November 29, 2006 at 04:06 PM (#2248385)
Oh I dunno, jingoist, I don't want him to think we're wimps -- we're not that polite.

This month of the Lifetime Network, a holiday special you'll always treasure: "A Very Functional HOM Family Christmas."

You'll laugh with all the boys as they open boxes full of old comic books, Star Wars videos, and 1970s and 1980s rock CDs. ("Rush? Oh, Grandma Johnny, how'd you know they were my favorite?" And how did you know I don't have 'Roll the Bones' yet?")

You'll be touched as they make up for past differences. ("...And I'm sorry too, guys. All those putouts just put me over the edge. Can I just ask you to forgive me...in the holiday spirit?")

You'll visit with old friends. ("Paul, jingo, Dave, Jaffe, come on in! I had a feeling you'd be dropping by to celebrate with us, and I've got a warm pot of Chock Full 'o 1890s Centerfielders-brand coffee warming for you and some delicious run-support-chip cookies that just came out of the oven.")

You'll revel in the memories of excitements and gifts gone by...("Dickey Pearce!!!! I've always wanted one of those!")

...remember with sadness the trials of yesteryear ("Wid, why have you forsaken me now?"; "You don't know what it's like to love Wes Ferrell!!!")...

...and reflect on those no longer with us ("RMC, Guapo, Gad, where are you? This isn't funny anymore! Where are you???...How will they ever find their way out of the woods in the snow, darkness, and freezing cold?")

You might even be in for a special holiday surprise ("And entering the top ten for the first time, Charlie Keller!")

So join the HOM for "A Very Functional HOM Family Christmas," and see your TV-watching consensus score soar as you celebrate the season with America's favorite extended online family.

Only on Lifetime.
   42. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 29, 2006 at 04:23 PM (#2248398)
That was hysterical, Eric. BTW, glad you didn't have us on Oxygen. :-)
   43. Raoul Duke Posted: December 01, 2006 at 01:41 AM (#2248698)
THAT ROCKED! I laughed coffee out my nose. For 80s CD, I would recommend the "URGH!A Music War" soundtrack . . .

I have reviewed music off and on for 20+ yrs; I can talk tunes like some of y'all sling mathematical formulae . . . :->
   44. yest Posted: December 01, 2006 at 05:48 AM (#2248851)
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Brooks Robinson, Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Lou Brock, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Willie McCovey, Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Catfish Hunter, Ray Dandridge
1988
Willie Stargell
1989
Johnny Bench, Carl Yastrzemski, Red Schoendienst
1990
Jim Palmer , Joe Morgan
1991
Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins , Tony Lazzeri
1992
Hal Newhouser
1994
Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
   45. Guapo Posted: December 01, 2006 at 06:04 AM (#2248862)
RMC, Guapo, Gad, where are you? This isn't funny anymore! Where are you???...How will they ever find their way out of the woods in the snow, darkness, and freezing cold?

We'll be HOM for Christmas
Even if we don't vote
Hoping Santa Claus boosts our "Lost Cause"
No matter how remote

We'll still read discussion threads
Even when at work
We'll be HOM for Christmas...
If only just to lurk
   46. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 01, 2006 at 03:21 PM (#2248991)
Nicely done, sir!
   47. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: December 01, 2006 at 05:47 PM (#2249103)
I guess I can be scrooge and say that as far as 1980's CD's go, i would recommend that you satay away from anythign not done by Tom Petty, the Violent Femmes, The Grateful Dead, and a few others. ;-)
   48. sunnyday2 Posted: December 01, 2006 at 06:36 PM (#2249144)
Hey hey now. Remain in Light, Talking Heads. Best record of the decade. And by all means, check out the film Stop Making Sense if you haven't already. Good ####. And then there's Brothers in Arms, Dire Straits.
   49. DL from MN Posted: December 01, 2006 at 06:54 PM (#2249157)
Husker Du, Minutemen, Eintsurzende Neubauten, Cabaret Voltaire, Sonic Youth, etc. and my guilty pleasure Love and Rockets
   50. sunnyday2 Posted: December 01, 2006 at 08:58 PM (#2249277)
DL, we are both from MN, but you are obviously younger than me ;-) I never understood Husker Du, including why they weren't Gopher Du.
   51. Raoul Duke Posted: December 03, 2006 at 03:31 AM (#2250351)
Ah, mention music and watch 'em come outta the woodwork. Massive kudos to DL from MN - we obviously have a lot of the same 80s tastes.

Hell, kudos to all who fired off musical opinions - a lotta good music named there.

Anyone remember the Henry Rollins spoken-word piece anout replacing the word "love" in famous rock/pop tunes with the word "lunch"?

"way down inside,
woman,
you need . . .
LLLLLLUUUUUUNNNNNNCCCCCHHHHH.
(massive thunderous Zep music here)
gotta whole lotta lunch . . . "
   52. Rick A. Posted: December 04, 2006 at 02:02 AM (#2250967)
Howie,

Doyle 7555

I have Doyle with 7653. I think you forgot to add in this years ballot.
   53. Howie Menckel Posted: December 04, 2006 at 02:33 AM (#2250990)
(fixing with Doyle add; this is virtually the exact top 25 will finish with, or will Cravath pick up enough steam?)

And GVH hangs onto the lead - by an incredible margin of a HALF-PT, after more than 75 years of balloting for both!.... Congrats to Browning, the 4th member of the 20,000-pt club...Redding and CJones move up to 12th and 15th, respectively... Bresnahan extends his lead over Leach from 6 to 13 pts.. Roush bounces Harry Stovey (9576) out of the top 25.

all-time 'votes points' thru 1990 - those still eligible in 1991 election are in CAPS. electees not in caps.


TOP 25, ALL-TIME
VAN HALTREN 23512.5
BECKLEY 23512
DUFFY 22813.5
BROWNING 20003.5
Childs 18484
Griffith 17924
Waddell 17596
Jennings 16976
WELCH 16020
Sisler 13892

Pike 13399
REDDING 12849
Sewell 12769
Mendez 12555
CJONES 12540
Thompson 12349
RYAN 12022.5
BRESNAHAN 11765
TLEACH 11752
Bennett 11503

Rixey 10789
Caruthers 10704
MOORE 10517
Beckwith 9896
ROUSH 9699

OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Doyle 7653, Cravath 7534, Grimes 6779, Walters 6619, Monroe 6564, Trouppe 5715, Schang 5584, Williamson 5478, McGraw 5211, Fox 5175, Oms 5039, Boyer 4736, BJohnson 4614)

not quite
(Keller 4342)
   54. DL from MN Posted: December 04, 2006 at 04:24 PM (#2251261)
I forgot Mission of Burma. I was a college radio DJ for a few years in the 1990s.
   55. yest Posted: December 04, 2006 at 04:31 PM (#2251264)
Nice to see Joe with the second most votes. Almost makes up for his lack of unanimity.

if he would have got a first place vote instead of a 5th he would have been tied for first
   56. sunnyday2 Posted: December 04, 2006 at 04:46 PM (#2251275)
>if he would have got a first place vote instead of a 5th he would have been tied for first

Aha, now we have a motive!

(BTW, I assume this means the second most *points* ever in one of our elections, is that right?)

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