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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Sunday, March 25, 2007

1996 Results: Hernandez, Keller and Wynn Win a Place in the Hall of Merit!

In his first year of eligibility, St. Louis and NY star Keith Hernandez captured 50% of all possible points to win the top spot this election for the Hall of Merit.

In his 40th year on the ballot, Yankee slugger Charlie Keller gained immortality with 34% of all possible points.

Last but not least, power-hitting center fielder Jimmy Wynn picked up 32% of all possible points for induction in his 14th year of eligibility.

Rounding out the top-ten were: Edd Roush, Nellie Fox, Jake Beckley, Pete Browning, Rollie Fingers, Tony Perez (first time in the top-ten!) and Cannonball Dick Redding.

RK   LY  Player                   PTS  Bal   1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 1  n/e  Keith Hernandez          646   40   6  7  3     3  4     1  4  3     5  2     2
 2    4  Charlie Keller           443   27   4  3  5  1  1  1  1  1  1  2  1  3  1  2   
 3    5  Jimmy Wynn               411   32   1     3  1  1  5  3  4  1  1  2  2  4  2  2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 4    7  Edd Roush                391   25   2  1  5  2  4  1        1  3  1  2  3      
 5    6  Nellie Fox               383   24   4  1  2  3  2  2  3  1  1     1     2  2   
 6    9  Jake Beckley             348   24   3  3  1  1     2  1  1  3  1  2  2  1     3
 7    8  Pete Browning            341   20   6  2     1  1  2  3     2           2     1
 8   10  Rollie Fingers           332   22   2  2  2  1  2  2  1  2  1  1  3     2     1
 9   12  Tony Perez               314   21   3  2  1  1  1  2  1  3     1  1  1  1  2  1
10   15  Cannonball Dick Redding  308   20   3  1  1  4     1  1  3     1  2  1  1  1   
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11   11  Charley Jones            307   19   2  5  1  2        1  2     1  1        3  1
12   14  Bucky Walters            299   20      1  2  5  1  2  2  3  1     1           2
13   13  Bob Johnson              286   19   1     3  3  1  1  2  1  3  1  1     2      
14   17  Gavvy Cravath            278   21   2  1  1     1  1     3  1  4  1  4     1  1
15   18  Alejandro Oms            260   19      1  1  4  2  1        3  1  3  1     2   
16   16  Hugh Duffy               258   17   1  3     1  2  4  1        1  1     1  1  1
17   19  Roger Bresnahan          244   18   2     2     2  1  2     1  1  1  2     2  2
18   20  George Van Haltren       221   14      3  2  2        2  1     1        2     1
19   27  Graig Nettles            179   15         1     1     3  1  2  1  1  2  2  1   
20   21  Tommy Leach              179   13         1  2  1     3  2     1  2     1      
21   23  Burleigh Grimes          164   12      1  1  1  1     1  3        2        1  1
22   26  Rusty Staub              163   12         2  1  1  1     1  2  1     1     2   
23   22  Dizzy Dean               154    9   1  2  1  1           1  1     2            
24   28  Luis Tiant               153   13   1        1  1           3  2  1  1     1  2
25   35  Mickey Welch             152   10   1     2     2           1  2     2         
26   24  John McGraw              147    8   1  3     1  1           1        1         
27   30  Norm Cash                144   11      1     1     3     1     1  1  1  2      
28   29  Reggie Smith             141   10         1  1  2     2  1  1  1              1
29   32  Larry Doyle              132    9   1  1  1     1  1           1        1  1  1
30   41  Elston Howard            131   12      1        1  1     1  1     1  1  1  1  3
31   33  Bob Elliott              128   11      1              1  1  2  1  1  3        1
32   34  Phil Rizzuto             126   10      1     2        1     1  2     1        2
33   38  Vic Willis               125   10         1  1  1     1     1  1  1     2  1   
34   37  Bobby Bonds              124   11            1  1  1  1  1     1  1     2     2
35   31  Orlando Cepeda           124   10               1  2  3  1           1  1     1
36   39  Dave Concepción          123    9      1  1     1  1  1     1           1  1  1
37   25  Lou Brock                122    9   1     1           2        2  1  1     1   
38   36  Ken Singleton            115   10         1  1        1           4  1     1  1
39   40  Tommy Bridges            106    7            1  4        1  1                  
40   42  Dave Bancroft             85    8               1           2  1     2  2      
41   49  Bill Monroe               77    7      1              1     1           2     2
42   50  Vern Stephens             75    6               1     1  1  2           1      
43   48  Pie Traynor               73    6   1        1                    1     1  2   
44   44  Tommy John                72    6      1           1              1  1  1  1   
45   53  Frank Howard              69    8                           1  2     1     2  2
46   47  Ben Taylor                69    5      1        1        1     1              1
47   51  Chuck Klein               68    5      1  1                          1  1     1
48   46  Carl Mays                 67    5            1  1  1        1              1   
49   57  Wally Schang              63    5   1                 1  1                    2
50   45  Addie Joss                62    4      1        1        1        1            
51   43  Sal Bando                 60    5            1           2        1        1   
52   52  Buddy Bell                59    7                     1                 4  1  1
53   54T Ron Cey                   59    5               1  1           1  1        1   
54   59  Bruce Sutter              57    4         1              1     2               
55   54T Ed Williamson             55    4         1                 1  1  1            
56   58  Bus Clarkson              53    4      1                    1     1     1      
57   60  Ed Cicotte                48    4         1                       1  1     1   
58  n/e  Rick Reuschel             47    3   1                    1        1            
59   66  Urban Shocker             44    5                     1        1           1  2
60T  71  Ernie Lombardi            42    4            1           1                    2
60T  68  Jimmy Ryan                42    4                     1        1  1        1   
62T  61  Frank Chance              40    3            1     1                    1      
62T  67  Jim Kaat                  40    3            1  1                          1   
64   76T Rabbit Maranville         39    4                  1           1           1  1
65   72T Thurman Munson            37    4                  1                 1     1  1
66   64T Sam Rice                  37    3                  1        1     1            
67   62  Fred Dunlap               37    2   1                    1                     
68   64T Jim Rice                  34    4                              1  1        1  1
69   75  George J. Burns           33    4                                    2  1  1   
70   70  Wilbur Cooper             33    2   1                                1         
71   81  Jack Quinn                29    2         1                                1   
72T  72T Luis Aparicio             28    2               1           1                  
72T  93T Leroy Matlock             28    2                  1     1                     
74T  79  Don Newcombe              27    2                     1  1                     
74T  63  Al Rosen                  27    2                  1        1                  
76   72T Dizzy Trout               26    2               1                 1            
77   78  Luke Easter               24    1   1                                          
78T  56  Tony Oliva                23    2            1                                1
78T  76T Gene Tenace               23    2                     1              1         
80T  69  Lefty Gomez               21    2                  1                          1
80T  82  Herman Long               21    2                     1                    1   
80T  80  Tony Mullane              21    2                        1              1      
83T  88T Hack Wilson               18    2                           1                 1
83T  93T Bobby Veach               18    2                                    2         
85   83T Fielder Jones             16    1               1                              
86T  83T Tony Lazzeri              15    1                  1                           
86T  85  Sam Leever                15    1                  1                           
88   87  Al Oliver                 14    2                                          2   
89   86  Artie Wilson              14    1                     1                        
90T  88T Dutch Leonard             11    1                              1               
90T  93T Mickey Vernon             11    1                              1               
92   91T Kiki Cuyler               10    1                                 1            
93T  93T George Kell                9    1                                    1         
93T n/e  Fred Lynn                  9    1                                    1         
95   97T Bill Madlock               8    1                                       1      
96T  97T Steve Garvey               7    1                                          1   
96T n/e  Dick Lundy                 7    1                                          1   
96T  97T Bill Mazeroski             7    1                                          1   
96T  91T Virgil Trucks              7    1                                          1   
100  97T Toby Harrah                6    1                                             1
Dropped Out: Jose Cruz(101), Cecil Travis(88T).
Ballots Cast: 54
John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 25, 2007 at 09:48 PM | 63 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:12 AM (#2318458)
Congrats to Keith, Charlie and Jimmy!
   2. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:24 AM (#2318471)
Wow, we're really getting down to the dregs. I don't mind Fox and Wynn and Roush in the top group, but everyone else down to Cravath/Oms/Duffy are really questionable for me (well, I can see Charley Jones too). Granted I'm not Dr. Consensus, but back in the old days, a voter could find six or seven backloggers in the top ten that he liked enough to vote for. [Old voters never die!] So I am finally feeling the (non) consensus pinch in a bigger way.
   3. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:24 AM (#2318472)
HOF-not-HOM through 1996
 
1  Aparicio
Luis
2. Bancroft
Dave
3. Beckley
Jake
4  Bender
Chief
5  Bottomley
Jim
6  Bresnahan
Roger
7  Brock
Lou
8  Chance
Frank
9  Chesbro
Jack
10 Combs
Earle
11 Cuyler
Kiki
12 Dandridge
Ray
13 Day
Leon
14 Dean
Dizzy
15 Duffy
Hugh
16 Evers
Johnny
17 Ferrell
Rick
18 Fingers
Rollie
19 Gomez
Lefty
20 Grimes
Burleigh
21 Hafey
Chick
22 Haines
Jesse
23 Hooper
Harry
24 Hoyt
Waite
25 Hunter
Catfish
26 Jackson
Travis
27 Johnson
Judy
28 Joss
Addie
29 Kell
George
30 Kelly
George
31 Klein
Chuck
32 Lazzeri
Tony
33 Lindstrom
Freddie
34 Lombardi
Ernie
35 Manush
Heinie
36 Maranville
Rabbit
37 Marquard
Rube
38 McCarthy
Tommy
39 McGraw
John 
40 Pennock
Herb
41 Rice
Sam
42 Rizzuto
Phil
43 Roush
Edd
44 Schalk
Ray
45 Schoendienst
Red
46 Tinker
Joe
47 Traynor
Pie
48 Waner
Lloyd
49 Welch
Mickey
50 Willis
Vic
51 Wilson
Hack
52 Youngs
Ross
 
HOM
-not-HOF
 
1  Allen
Dick 
2  Barnes
Ross
3  Beckwith
John
4  Bennett
Charlie
5  Boyer
Ken
6  Brown
Ray
7  Brown
Willard
8  Caruthers
Bob
9  Childs
Cupid
10 Dahlen
Bill
11 Davis
George
12 Doby
Larry
13 Evans
Darrell
14 Ferrell
Wes
15 Freehan
Bill
16 Glasscock
Jack
17 Gordon
Joe
18 Gore
George
19 Grant
Frank
20 Grich
Bobby
21 Groh
Heinie
22 Hack
Stan
23 Hernandez
Keith
24 Hill
Pete
25 Hines
Paul
26 Jackson
Joe*
27 JohnsonHome Run
28 Keller
Charlie
29 Mackey
Biz
30 Magee
Sherry
31 McPhee
Bid
32 McVey
Cal
33 Méndez
José
34 Minoso
Minnie
35 Moore
Dobie
36 Niekro
Phil
37 Pearce
Dickey
38 Pierce
Billy
39 Pike
Lip
40 Richardson
Hardy
41 Rogan
Bullet Joe
42 Rose
Pete*
43 SantoRon
44 Santop
Louis
45 Sheckard
Jimmy
46 Simmons
Ted
47 Start
Joe
48 Stearnes
Turkey
49 Stovey
Harry
50 Suttles
Mule
51 Sutton
Don
52 Sutton
Ezra
53 Torre
Joe
54 Trouppe
Quincy
55 Torriente
Cristobal
56 Wells
Willie
57 White
Deacon
58 Williams
Smokey Joe
59 Wilson
Jud
60 Wynn
Jimmy
 
*  not eligible for the HOF 
   4. mulder & scully Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:26 AM (#2318474)
1997: Dewey Evans, and two of Roush, Fox, Beckley, Browning, Fingers, Perez, Redding, and Jones?
Get out and sharpen your knives, partisans of each candidate.
   5. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:27 AM (#2318475)
KONG!!!!!!!!!!!!
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:34 AM (#2318478)
KONG!!!!!!!!!!!!

(got to do it twice just like in the movie :-)
   7. Howie Menckel Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:37 AM (#2318481)
18 players had 4 or more "elect-me" votes - including electee JWynn with 4.
   8. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:46 AM (#2318488)
Wow. I can't say I have any issues with it, but I am surprised.
   9. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:49 AM (#2318489)
Keith Hernandez = Bill Terry

Discuss.
   10. Howie Menckel Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:56 AM (#2318493)
all-time 'votes points' thru 1996 - those still eligible in 1997 election are in CAPS. electees are not in caps.
Congrats to Beckley for clearing the 25,000-pt mark. Will he make it to 26,000?... C Jones up 1 to 11th, Bresnahan up 2 to 14th, Leach up 1 to 16th.. Roush climbs into top 20, but he may be running out of time.... Keller departs at 6424 with 17 'active' candidates ahead of him.. JWynn departs with 23 'active' candidates ahead of him. They lift Joss and Dean into the 'active' top 25. Am I missing anyone? Fingers?

TOP 25, ALL-TIME
BECKLEY.... 25219
VAN HALTREN 24557.5
DUFFY...... 24158.5
BROWNING... 21829.5
Childs..... 18484
Griffith... 17924
Waddell.... 17596
Jennings... 16976
WELCH...... 16694
REDDING.... 14440

CJONES..... 14074
Sisler..... 13892
Pike....... 13399
BRESNAHAN.. 12799
Sewell..... 12769
TLEACH..... 12712
Mendez..... 12555
Thompson... 12349
RYAN....... 12264.5
ROUSH...... 11649

Bennett.... 11503
Moore...... 10904
Rixey...... 10789
Caruthers.. 10704
Beckwith.... 9896

OTHERS IN THE TOP 25 ACTIVE
(Cravath 8818, Doyle 8295, Walters 8095, Grimes 7683, Fox 7216, Monroe 6879, Oms 6190, BJohnson 6098, Schang 5886, McGraw 5832, Williamson 5755, Willis 4267, Joss 4015, Dean 3846)

not quite
Elliott 3716
   11. DavidFoss Posted: March 27, 2007 at 01:03 AM (#2318499)
Keith Hernandez = Bill Terry

We knew it was coming this time. We had an extra week to discuss. A couple people even warned that a KH induction was imminent with a week of discussion to go. No one objected.
   12. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: March 27, 2007 at 01:19 AM (#2318514)
I don't object. I had Hernandez on my ballot. I just find it interesting, and I think 30 years from now it may be viewed as very similar to Terry. Maybe worthy, maybe not, very close, snuck in during a weak year without really having to 'run the guantlet'.
   13. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: March 27, 2007 at 01:27 AM (#2318519)
Keith Hernandez = Bill Terry

Discuss.


Premise: keith hernandez is a HOMer.
1) Bill Terry is a fully qualified HOMer.
2) Bill Terry is a few slots above the in/out line at his position.
3) Keith Hernandez is above the in/out line.
4) Hernandez is closer to Terry than the line.
5) Hernandez is a HOMer.

At the time I poo-pooed Terry. And I did for years after. I'm glad to say that I have the flexibility to change my mind. I changed my mind, and now I'm fine with it, just as I am with Hernandez entering on whichever year's ballot he goes in on.

Among 1Bs, Tony Perez really needs more discussion, he's a potential mistake in the making. Perez, Beckley, Cash, and Taylor need to be compare/contrasted before we elect any of them.
   14. Chris Fluit Posted: March 27, 2007 at 01:58 AM (#2318543)
27 different players received at least one first place vote. That ties 1961 for the second most all time and is only one shy of the record set in 1968.

How does 1996 compare to 1968?

1968: Eppa Rixey, Richie Ashburn, Biz Mackey, Clark Griffith, George Van Haltren, Cool Papa Bell, George Sisler, Bobby Doerr, Jake Beckley, Willard Brown, Dobie Moore, Hugh Duffy, Joe Sewell, Cupid Childs, Pete Browning, Jose Mendez, Joe Gordon, Alejandro Oms, Mickey Welch, Charley Jones, Roger Bresnahan, Tommy Leach, Burleigh Grimes, Edd Roush, Larry Doyle, Gavvy Cravath, Wally Schang and Ernie Lombardi

1996: Keith Hernandez, Charlie Keller, Jimmy Wynn, Edd Roush, Nellie Fox, Jake Beckley, Pete Browning, Rollie Fingers, Tony Perez, Dick Redding, Charley Jones, Bob Johnson, Gavvy Cravath, Hugh Duffy, Roger Bresnahan, Dizzy Dean, Luis Tiant, Mickey Welch, John McGraw, Larry Doyle, Lou Brock, Pie Traynor, Wally Schang, Rick Reuschel, Fred Dunlap, Wilbur Cooper and Luke Easter.

13 members of the class of '68 have since been elected (including the two that were elected that year). 10 others are still receiving first place votes as of '96 (Beckley, Bresnahan, Browning, Cravath, Doyle, Duffy, C Jones, Roush, Schang and Welch) while 5 others are still around but didn't pick up a top slot this time (Grimes, Leach, Lombardi, Oms and Van Haltren).
   15. jimd Posted: March 27, 2007 at 02:07 AM (#2318550)
Keith Hernandez = Bill Terry

Except that Hernandez had 3 more seasons at the All-star level, which is a lot.

The interesting thing about that is that Terry was still a star at 36, while Keith's last star season was at 33. Terry got started very late; his first star season is at age 28 in 1927, Hernandez was a star at age 23 in 1977.

Does anyone have access to Terry's minor league stats? Is he a candidate for minor-league credit? Or was he one of McGraw's personal projects? Did that combined with the presence of High-Pockets Kelly interfere with Terry's development?
   16. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: March 27, 2007 at 03:33 AM (#2318593)
YYEEESS!

This is the second 'pet' candidate of mine that has been elected and it may be the last for a while. And while I was only one of many who voted for Hughie Jennings (as well as someone who was late ot the party) I feel that I had a hand in getting Keller elected. At least I feel I was one of the first who voted for him. This may sound like self important bragging, but hey it feels good.
   17. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: March 27, 2007 at 04:14 AM (#2318617)
Wait - am I reading this correctly - 4 out of 54 voters had Jimmie Wynn in an "elect now" slot . . and that was all it took. WOW!

Is that a record?
   18. mulder & scully Posted: March 27, 2007 at 05:51 AM (#2318656)
As the voter who had Keller the highest his debut year, I am stoked to see him elected.

Re: Bill Terry and early career:
At the age of 16, he played 8 games as a pitcher with Newnan in the Georgia-Alabama league in 1915. He went 7-1 but I have no other numbers.
1916: Shreveport in the Texas League, 19 games as a pitcher, 84 IP, 6-2, 1.07 ERA, hit .241.
1917: Shreveport again, 40 games as a pitcher, 246 IP, 14-11, 3.00 ERA, 81/116 K/BB (yes 35 more walks than strikeouts), 55 games in OF, hit .231 with ISO of about .115
1918: semi-pro
1919: semi-pro
1920: semi-pro
1921: semi-pro
1922: age 23, Toledo, American Assoc, 88 games at first, hit .336, slugged .596
1923: age 24, Toledo again, 109 games at first, hit .377, slugged .585. Called up/purchased something or other to the Giants where he played 3 games. George Kelly was the Giants first baseman. He led the league in assists at first 1920-1922. In 1923, Kelly was 6th in HR, 4th in RBI in the league. In 1921, Kelly was 3rd in Slg, 2nd in Dbl, 2nd in TB, 1st in HR, 2nd in RBI, 6th in OPS+. 1922, 10th in SLG, 8th in DBL, 3rd in HR, 4th in RBI.
1924: age 25, 35 games at first, hit .239 while Kelly was 6th in SLG, 4th in TB, 3rd in DBL, 4th in HR, 1st in RBI, and 6th in OPS+.
1925: Terry, age 26 is made regular first baseman while Kelly is moved to 2b. Kelly has similar range to Frankie Frisch and a better fielding percentage. Kelly and Terry have similar OPS+: 111 and 119.

What did McGraw see after 1924 to make him move Kelly to 2nd to start Terry at 1st? As to Terry's minor league career, it doesn't look like he deserves any credit to me.
   19. OCF Posted: March 27, 2007 at 06:37 AM (#2318675)
Average consensus score -19.0, an all-time record, shattering the previous low of -16.3 set in 1987.

Highest possible consensus score: -1.

Chris Cobb: -11
Howie Menckel: -11
andrew siegel: -12
Esteban Rivera: -12
Mark Shirk: -12
Trevor P: -13
favre: -13
mulder & scully: -13
John Murphy: -13
...
Thane of Bagarth: -18
'zop: -19 (medians)
...
OCF: -20
...
KJOK: -24
jimd: -24
Chris Fluit: -24
Dan R: -25
Joe Dimino: -25 (Rick Reuschel?)
Michael Bass: -26
Eric Chalek: -26
EricC: -27
rico vanian: -27
yest: -31
karlmagnus: -32

That's me sliding below average: I had Hernandez and Wynn high on my ballot, but I was not on board with electing Keller, never have been. And then, look at who's 4 though 11? Roush, Fox, Beckley, Browning, Fingers, Perez, Redding, Jones - I'm not voting for any of them in my top 15. My consensus score will sink further before it recovers.

Of course, I think I know what I'm doing; it's the rest of you who are out of touch.
   20. rawagman Posted: March 27, 2007 at 09:14 AM (#2318710)
I decided that this election should be looked at through a different lens, mainly just for fun. Being a backlog year where the tally figured to be close, I decided to track the election to see the standings after every 5 ballots were cast.
The results were interesting, seeing how and where the tides turned.
Another interesting point: Luke Easter featured on only 1 ballot. And he came in first. Has that ever happened before?

Anyway, without further ado, the 1996 election race, tale of the tape:
through 5 ballots (JM, Daryn, Rusty Priske, rawagman and Dl from MN: 1) Beckley - 60 2) Hernandez - 56 3) Perez - 55 4) Welch - 50 5) Fox - 44


through 10 ballots (Juan V., Jim Sp, AJM, karlmagnus, ronw): 1) Hernandez - 133 2) Beckley - 107 3) Perez - 102 4) Fox - 78 5) Johnson - 77


through 15 ballots (favre, Mark Donelson, Adam Schafer, Chris Fluit, Thane of Bagarth): 1) Hernandez - 179 2) Fox - 142 3) Beckley - 139 4) Perez - 125 5) Cravath - 118


through 20 ballots (Howie Menckel, Got Melky?, Rick A., Al Peterson, Rob_Wood) 1) Hernandez - 216 2) Beckley - 187 3) Fox - 179 4) Browning - 147 5) Jones - 145 6) Perez - 139 7) Johnson - 138 T10) Cravath - 118 26) Welch - 61


through 25 ballots (OCF, TomH, rico vanian, Eric Chalek, DanG) 1) Hernandez - 297 2) Beckley - 232 3) Fox - 203 4) Perez - 171 5) Walters - 170 6) Johnson - 154 8) Browning - 147 9) Jones - 145 12) Cravath - 136 30) Welch - 61


through 30 ballots (jimd, Brent, Sean Gilman, Chris Cobb, dan b) 1) Hernandez - 399 2) Beckley - 244 3) Wynn - 225 4) Fox - 224 5) Walters - 222 7) Perez - 193 9) Jones - 175 T10) Browning - 171 12) Johnson - 154 T13) Cravath - 147 30) Welch - 70


through 35 ballots (Jeff M, Mark Shirk, Patrick W, Andrew M, SWW) 1) Hernandez - 444 2) Fox - 280 3) Wynn - 278 4) Keller - 247 T5) Walters - 245 T5) Perez - 245 7) Beckley - 244 T9) Browning - 209 11) Jones - 198 15) Johnson - 168 16) Cravath - 160 34) Welch - 70


through 40 ballots (Devin McCullen, Tiboreau, sunnyday2, 'zop, andrew siegel) 1) Hernandez - 493 2) Keller - 349 3) Wynn - 342 4) Roush - 312 5) Fox - 288 6) Beckley - 264 7) Perez - 258 8) Walters - 255 T9) Browning - 234 12) Jones - 217 15) Cravath - 203 16) Johnson - 194 38) Welch - 70


through 45 ballots (mulder & scully, Ken Fischer, DavidFoss, Joe Dimino, Mike Webber) 1) Hernandez - 546 2) Keller - 398 3) Wynn - 380 4) Roush - 353 5) Fox - 311 6) Beckley - 291 8) Perez - 281 9) Walters - 272 10) Browning - 264 11) Cravath - 263 13) Jones - 250 16) Johnson - 205 27) Welch - 117


through 50 ballots (Esteban Rivera, Michael Bass, EricC, Trevor P., yest) 1) Hernandez - 598 2) Keller - 420 3) Wynn - 402 4) Roush - 391 5) Fox - 366 6) Beckley - 342 7) Perez - 307 8) Browning - 302 10) Walters - 286 12) Jones - 267 13) Cravath - 263 15) Johnson - 252 24) Welch - 142


through 54 ballots (Don F, Dan R, Max Parkinson, KJOK) - see final results.
   21. rawagman Posted: March 27, 2007 at 09:23 AM (#2318711)
There was never any doubt about Hernandez's candidacy. He never dropped below 2nd after the first five ballots were cast. Jimmy Wynn only got into the top 5 with the 30th ballot cast, nudging him 1 point ahead of Nellie Fox (dan b's ballot). Wynn stayed in the top 3 the rest of the way.
5 ballots later, as Jake Beckley's chance began to fade, Keller edged ahead him as well as Walters and Perez into 4th place. His surge continued between ballots 35-40. Nellie Fox received 1 vote (13 place - 8 points) while Keller gained 102 points and moved into second place, where he would coast to immortality.
   22. Rusty Priske Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:17 PM (#2318727)
I thought I was goign to knock three candidates off my ballot, and then at the last mintue Keller swooped in an grabbed a spot.

There is another added to the 'in the HoM but will never get in my PHoM' group.
   23. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:44 PM (#2318737)
Dan R: -25
Joe Dimino: -25 (Rick Reuschel?)
Michael Bass: -26
Eric Chalek: -26
EricC: -27
rico vanian: -27


Wow, that's stunning. I haven't been a CS bottom-trawler in, what, a couple-three decades? But more episodes of Matlock mean more bad consensus scores. Well that, and having like only Roush and Hernandez on my ballot among the top 10s. Zowee.

But it's very cool that the two Eric Cs are side by side. Also funny that Dan R and Joe D (the guys with the two most comprehensive systems in our group) are also producing very low consensus scores. There's something about that that we might all want to consider. As for Michael and Rico, hey guys, thanks for joining me in the Karl Yestus Memorial Super-Low Consensus Clubhouse!!!! Hey, wait, where's Gilman? He's my best-ever CS pal and should be enjoying this moment with me....
   24. Howie Menckel Posted: March 27, 2007 at 12:50 PM (#2318740)
I nearly "won" consensus, and I had the electees 5-10-15, in that order (first-ever vote for Wynn).
   25. sunnyday2 Posted: March 27, 2007 at 01:01 PM (#2318747)
Well, Doc, what did I tell you?

As for me, still in the boring middle, not even worthy of a mention ;-(

One of the top 3, 4 of 10 and just 5 of 15 on my ballot. You'd think that would get a guy a seat in the doctor karl yestus club, but no.
   26. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: March 27, 2007 at 01:28 PM (#2318766)
As for me, still in the boring middle, not even worthy of a mention ;-(

You did, but as you note, your drive to consensus-mavenhood rolls on. Listen, Sunny, you got to find a couple more 1-vote or 2-vote guys for your ballot to bring you back to your inconoclastic days of yore. I've got a couple lefty pitchers in mind that might help you out....
   27. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: March 27, 2007 at 01:32 PM (#2318768)
Hey, hats off to Danb and Tiboreau for knowing who the good southpaws are. You are my brothers in left arms.
   28. Esteban Rivera Posted: March 27, 2007 at 01:35 PM (#2318771)
Wow! I'm only one point off from the top consensus score and I had Hernandez 9th on my ballot and Keller and Wynn nowhere to be seen. These really are the end of days.
   29. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: March 27, 2007 at 01:39 PM (#2318775)
Just a not on the HOM-not-HOF list. I think we're going to really start seeing some tightening of those lists since the HOF was inducting 19th C. and NgL guys in the late 90s. Seven or eight players worth of tightening up, I think.
   30. DL from MN Posted: March 27, 2007 at 01:44 PM (#2318777)
I'm fine with Wynn and to a lesser extent Keller (he'd probably make my pHoM) even though neither made my ballot. I like Roush in the upcoming election but I think Nellie Fox would be the worst player elected. Of course someone will be able to say that about any of the top 10 returning candidates. Still, there are any number of SS with comparable offensive contributions being ignored in favor of the 2B. I don't understand it.
   31. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 27, 2007 at 02:17 PM (#2318801)
Nice having a high consensus score. It's going to take a hit next election, though.
   32. ronw Posted: March 27, 2007 at 03:35 PM (#2318864)
Two more join the 100 point club. Welcome to Elston Howard and Dave Concepcion!

The following players have received 100 points in any election, but are still knocking at the door:

P (current)
Rollie Fingers
Dick Redding
Bucky Walters
Burleigh Grimes
Dizzy Dean
Luis Tiant
Mickey Welch
Vic Willis
Tommy Bridges

P (past)
Jim McCormick
Tony Mullane
Addie Joss
Eddie Cicotte
Urban Shocker
Carl Mays

C (current)
Roger Bresnahan
Elston Howard

C (past)
Wally Schang

1B (current)
Jake Beckley
Tony Perez
Norm Cash
Orlando Cepeda

1B (past)
Frank Chance

2B (current)
Nellie Fox
Larry Doyle

2B (past)
Fred Dunlap
Bill Monroe

3B (current)
Graig Nettles
Tommy Leach
John McGraw
Bob Elliott

3B (past)
Ed Williamson
Lave Cross
Pie Traynor

SS (current)
Phil Rizzuto
Dave Concepcion

SS (past)
Dick Lundy

LF (current)
Charley Jones
Bob Johnson
Lou Brock

LF (past)
Tip O'Neill
Bobby Veach
George J. Burns

CF (current)
Edd Roush
Pete Browning
Alejandro Oms
Hugh Duffy
George Van Haltren

CF (past)
Mike Griffin
Jimmy Ryan
Fielder Jones
Spotswood Poles

RF (current)
Gavy Cravath
Rusty Staub
Reggie Smith
Bobby Bonds
Ken Singleton

RF (past)
Mike Tiernan
Harry Hooper
Sam Rice
   33. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: March 27, 2007 at 03:41 PM (#2318870)
Ron,

You must have overlooked Matlock and W Cooper, right? I mean they always pull 100 points which is why I'm the new Howie Menkel.
   34. Juan V Posted: March 27, 2007 at 04:11 PM (#2318900)
I have fixed a number of typos on the Edd Roush row of my spreadsheet, so he'll jump quite a few places. If I hadn't done that, my consensus score would have taken a beating in 1997...
   35. Mike Green Posted: March 27, 2007 at 04:29 PM (#2318916)
Well done, fellas. I think you were a bit light on the starters, but those were some tough choices.
   36. DanG Posted: March 27, 2007 at 04:52 PM (#2318934)
His percentage broke Bobby Doerr’s record of 33% in 1972 for lowest ever.

I believe Dobie Moore holds the record with 30% in 1991. Not surprisingly, he was the last HoMer prior to Wynn who I didn't support.

In the 1996 election we obliterated the record for most players receiving at least 4.5% support with 53, beating the total of 48 in 1988 and 1991. We also had 35 guys with at least 9.5% support, passing the record of 34 in 1971 and 1975.

I haven't carped for awhile, so here goes. To me, it is a flaw in our system of voting that players can be elected with a minority of support from the electorate. We didn't have to let it get this way.[/carp]

At least we don't toss it to the senate to pick the winner.
   37. TomH Posted: March 27, 2007 at 05:12 PM (#2318948)
To address DanG's concern, we could (have) required a run-off election anytime total support drops below X%. Maybe re-vote, forcing everyone to rank the top 15 non-elected point-getters from 1 to 15. This would likely have the effect of dropping suport for candidates who are most strongly loved/hated, as they would continue to draw last-place votes from the voters who don't see the merit of peak or career.

Too big a subject to extensively discuss at this date, IMHO.
   38. DanG Posted: March 27, 2007 at 05:18 PM (#2318955)
Too big a subject to extensively discuss at this date, IMHO.

Just another thing on my list of "Things We'll Do Better Next Time."
   39. DanG Posted: March 27, 2007 at 05:30 PM (#2318966)
Just curious to see this. Hall of famers in bold:

Edd Roush
Nellie Fox
Jake Beckley

Pete Browning
Rollie Fingers
Tony Perez

Cannonball Dick Redding
Charley Jones
Bucky Walters
Bob Johnson
Gavvy Cravath
Alejandro Oms
Hugh Duffy
Roger Bresnahan

George Van Haltren
Graig Nettles
Tommy Leach
Burleigh Grimes
Rusty Staub
Dizzy Dean
Luis Tiant
Mickey Welch
John McGraw

Norm Cash
Reggie Smith
Larry Doyle
Elston Howard
Bob Elliott
Phil Rizzuto
Vic Willis

Bobby Bonds
Orlando Cepeda
Dave Concepción
Lou Brock
Ken Singleton
Tommy Bridges
Dave Bancroft
Bill Monroe
Vern Stephens
Pie Traynor
Tommy John
Frank Howard
Ben Taylor
Chuck Klein

Carl Mays
Wally Schang
Addie Joss
   40. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 27, 2007 at 05:49 PM (#2318984)
I believe Dobie Moore holds the record with 30% in 1991. Not surprisingly, he was the last HoMer prior to Wynn who I didn't support.


I suspect you have had (or will have) a few from your own ballots near the bottom of that list, Dan. ;-)

I'll correct the top of this page in regard to Wynn in a moment. Thanks!
   41. DL from MN Posted: March 27, 2007 at 05:54 PM (#2318990)
The election of Jimmy Wynn and the forthcoming election of Edd Roush give hope to Kirby Puckett fans.
   42. DanG Posted: March 27, 2007 at 06:05 PM (#2319000)
I suspect you have had (or will have) a few from your own ballots near the bottom of that list

For sure. I've supported most of the light-on-support HoMers.
   43. Daryn Posted: March 28, 2007 at 01:53 AM (#2319270)
I had none of the electees on my ballot, but have 6 of the next 7 on my ballot. I could go from a very low consensus score to a very high one in one year.
   44. OCF Posted: March 28, 2007 at 02:05 AM (#2319280)
Daryn: It is true that you were below average, at -22. Of course what I could say is that everyone's consensus score was low, including Chris and Howie. And that part isn't going to be getting better next year.
   45. Paul Wendt Posted: March 28, 2007 at 03:22 PM (#2319505)
100 names on ballots.
And Wally Berger not among them after all :-)

--
1925: Terry, age 26 is made regular first baseman while Kelly is moved to 2b. Kelly has similar range to Frankie Frisch and a better fielding percentage. Kelly and Terry have similar OPS+: 111 and 119.

What did McGraw see after 1924 to make him move Kelly to 2nd to start Terry at 1st?


1926 looks like age 20 Freddie Lindstrom had won a regular job and age 27 Bill Terry had not.

McGraw made that 1925 move with MVP-caliber Frankie Frisch at 2B. Did he finally realize that 3B Heinie Groh was below Giant standard? Or was Groh unable to play in October? Rookie Freddie Lindstrom famously played 3B in the World Series --short of his 19th birthday, not McGraw's favorite practice. In 1925 Frisch played the field but by 1926 Lindstrom-Jackson-Frisch. The neatest story (easy for some to confirm or correct) is that Frisch started the season at 3B because Groh had lost a job and Lindstrom not yet won one. Supposing that McGraw felt secure with Travis Jackson as his shortstop by 1924, then his problem may be interpreted: how to complement Jackson-Frisch-Kelly with one or more of Groh, Lindstrom, and Terry.

The whole six-pack celebrated birthdays in Sep-Oct-Nov. Ages roughly at the 1924 World Series, "left to right" on the infield spectrum:
Groh 35, Lindstrom 19, Jackson 21, Frisch 26, Kelly 29, Terry 26

You know, you can read a lot about these guys if you read in the right places.
Cooperstown elected five, not Groh because he was a bit Giant.


8. Joe Dimino Posted: March 26, 2007 at 08:46 PM (#2318488)
Wow. I can't say I have any issues with it, but I am surprised.
9. Joe Dimino Posted: March 26, 2007 at 08:49 PM (#2318489)
Keith Hernandez = Bill Terry
Discuss.


The two men who surprised Joe Dimino? That doesn't make discussion, I concede.

The group judges Hernandez to be excellent to historically great in the field, Terry one tier below that. Someone wrote last week that Terry was a great batter, much better than Hernandez, but I doubt that is a common opinion. Each was a difficult person, according to some contemporaries.

First basemen elected partly for their fielding may be enough to call them peas in a pod here.
   46. Paul Wendt Posted: March 28, 2007 at 05:30 PM (#2319625)
100 names on ballots.
And Wally Berger not among them after all :-)

--
1925: Terry, age 26 is made regular first baseman while Kelly is moved to 2b. Kelly has similar range to Frankie Frisch and a better fielding percentage. Kelly and Terry have similar OPS+: 111 and 119.

What did McGraw see after 1924 to make him move Kelly to 2nd to start Terry at 1st?


1926 looks like age 20 Freddie Lindstrom had won a regular job and age 27 Bill Terry had not.

McGraw made that 1925 move with MVP-caliber Frankie Frisch at 2B. Did he finally realize that 3B Heinie Groh was below Giant standard? Or was Groh unable to play in October? Rookie Freddie Lindstrom famously played 3B in the World Series --short of his 19th birthday, not McGraw's favorite practice. In 1925 Frisch played the field but by 1926 Lindstrom-Jackson-Frisch. The neatest story (easy for some to confirm or correct) is that Frisch started the season at 3B because Groh had lost a job and Lindstrom not yet won one. Supposing that McGraw felt secure with Travis Jackson as his shortstop by 1924, then his problem may be interpreted: how to complement Jackson-Frisch-Kelly with one or more of Groh, Lindstrom, and Terry.

The whole six-pack celebrated birthdays in Sep-Oct-Nov. Ages roughly at the 1924 World Series, "left to right" on the infield spectrum:
Groh 35, Lindstrom 19, Jackson 21, Frisch 26, Kelly 29, Terry 26

You know, you can read a lot about these guys if you read in the right places.
Cooperstown elected five, not Groh because he was a bit Giant.


8. Joe Dimino Posted: March 26, 2007 at 08:46 PM (#2318488)
Wow. I can't say I have any issues with it, but I am surprised.
9. Joe Dimino Posted: March 26, 2007 at 08:49 PM (#2318489)
Keith Hernandez = Bill Terry
Discuss.


The two men who surprised Joe Dimino? That doesn't make discussion, I concede.

The group judges Hernandez to be excellent to historically great in the field, Terry one tier below that. Someone wrote last week that Terry was a great batter, much better than Hernandez, but I doubt that is a common opinion. Each was a difficult person, according to some contemporaries.

First basemen elected partly for their fielding may be enough to call them peas in a pod here.
   47. Paul Wendt Posted: March 28, 2007 at 05:57 PM (#2319656)
Two hours and eight minutes!
That may be a single day record.

Does anyone have the HOF-not-HOM or HOM-not-HOF organized chronologically rather than alphabetically? For forty years! I had the HOM marked in my Master table but the number of Negro Leaguers, who are not in the table to be marked, overwhelmed me.


<u>pitch</u>
Fingers
Redding
Walters

<u>C3S2field</u>
Fox
Bresnahan

<u>bat</u>
Roush (CF)
Beckley (1b)
Browning (cf)
Perez (1b)
Jones (cf)
Johnson
Cravath
Oms (CF)
Duffy (cf)
Van Haltren (CF)

cf (lowercase) - 25-50% of games
Perez played almost 30% 3b, same as Jones cf
   48. Paul Wendt Posted: March 28, 2007 at 07:05 PM (#2319722)
I am copying the Terry/Giants note in the reactivated Terry thread, a better place for it.
   49. DanG Posted: March 28, 2007 at 07:42 PM (#2319763)
Does anyone have the HOF-not-HOM or HOM-not-HOF organized chronologically

I think this is complete. I have 59 players in the HOF as of 2007 who are eligible for the HoM as of 1997.

Welch
McCarthy
Duffy
Beckley
Willis
Chesbro
Chance
Bresnahan
Tinker
Evers
Joss
Bender
Marquard
Hooper
Taylor B
Schalk
Youngs
Roush
Bancroft
G. Kelly
Maranville
S. Rice
Grimes
Pennock
Cooper A
H. Wilson
Combs
Traynor
T. Jackson
Lindstrom
Bottomley
Haines
Hafey
Cuyler
Hoyt
J. Johnson
Manush
Lazzeri
Dean
L. Waner
Gomez
Klein
R. Ferrell
Lombardi
H. Smith
Dandridge
L. Day
Rizzuto
Kell
Schoendienst
Fox
Mazeroski
Aparicio
Cepeda
Hunter
Brock
Fingers
Perez
Sutter
   50. jimd Posted: March 28, 2007 at 08:16 PM (#2319800)
Does anyone have the HOF-not-HOM or HOM-not-HOF organized chronologically

HOM not HOF by "category".
Old-Timers (19th Century MLB)
Negro Leaguers
Veterans (20th Century, VC eligible by 1996)
Active (BBWAA eligible in 1996, possibly dropped by 5% rule)

They are listed chronologically within category by HOM election date
(which makes them roughly chronological by playing date, excepting stragglers).
Those in caps I boldly predict will be elected to the HOF within the next decade or so.

***

HOM not HOF 60 (41/19)

Old-Timers: 18 (16/2)
White Hines Gore Barnes Glasscock
Richardson ESutton Start MCPHEE McVey
DAVIS Dahlen Stovey Bennett Caruthers
Pearce Pike Childs

Negro Leaguers: 18 (4/14)
GJohnson GRANT HILL SANTOP JWILLIAMS
TORRIENTE ROGAN STEARNES WILSON WELLS
RBROWN SUTTLES Beckwith MACKEY WBROWN
MENDEZ Moore Trouppe

Veterans: 12 (11/1)
Magee JJackson Sheckard Groh Ferrell
Hack Gordon DOBY Pierce Minoso
Boyer Keller

Active: 12 (10/2)
Santo Allen Torre Freehan Grich
Rose NIEKRO Simmons DSUTTON Evans
Hernandez JWynn
   51. DanG Posted: March 28, 2007 at 08:17 PM (#2319801)
I think this is complete. I have 41 players in the HoM as of 1996 who are eligible for the HOF as of 2007.

PEARCE
MCVEY
BARNES R
START
PIKE L
SUTTON E
WHITE DEA
HINES
RICHARDSON H
GORE
STOVEY
CARUTHERS
BENNETT
GLASSCOCK
CHILDS
DAHLEN
SHECKARD
JOHNSON HR
MAGEE
JACKSON J
MOORE DOB
GROH
BECKWITH
FERRELL W
HACK
GORDON J
KELLER
TROUPPE
PIERCE
MINOSO
BOYER K
SANTO
FREEHAN
TORRE
ALLEN R
WYNN J
ROSE
GRICH
SIMMONS T
EVANS DA
HERNANDEZ K
   52. yest Posted: March 29, 2007 at 04:00 AM (#2320046)
A list of eligible HoFers
HoMers in bold
all HoFers with significant playing careers are included
1936
Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson
1937
Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Cy Young , Connie Mack, John McGraw, George Wright
1938
Pete Alexander
1939
George Sisler , Eddie Collins , Willie Keeler , Lou Gehrig, Cap Anson , Charlie Comiskey , Candy Cummings , Buck Ewing , Charles Radbourn , Al Spalding
1942
Rogers Hornsby
1945
Roger Bresnahan , Dan Brouthers , Fred Clarke , Jimmy Collins , Ed Delahanty , Hugh Duffy , Hughie Jennings , King Kelly , Jim O’Rourke , Wilbert Robinson
1946
Jesse Burkett , Frank Chance , Jack Chesbro , Johnny Evers , , Clark Griffith, , Tommy McCarthy , Joe McGinnity , Eddie Plank , Joe Tinker , Rube Waddell , Ed Walsh
1947
Carl Hubbell , Frankie Frisch , Mickey Cochrane , Lefty Grove
1948
Herb Pennock , Pie Traynor
1949
Charlie Gehringer , Mordecai Brown , Kid Nichols
1951
Mel Ott , Jimmie Foxx
1952
Harry Heilmann , Paul Waner
1953
Al Simmons , Dizzy Dean , Chief Bender , Bobby Wallace , Harry Wright
1954
Rabbit Maranville , Bill Dickey , Bill Terry
1955
Joe DiMaggio , Ted Lyons , Dazzy Vance , Gabby Hartnett , Frank Baker , Ray Schalk
1956
Hank Greenberg , Joe Cronin
1957
Sam Crawford
1959
Zack Wheat
1961
Max Carey , Billy Hamilton
1962
Bob Feller , Jackie Robinson , Bill McKechnie , Edd Roush
1963
John Clarkson , Elmer Flick , Sam Rice , Eppa Rixey
1964
Luke Appling , Red Faber , Burleigh Grimes , Miller Huggins , Tim Keefe , Heinie Manush , Monte Ward
1965
Pud Galvin
1966
Ted Williams , Casey Stengel
1967
Red Ruffing , Lloyd Waner
1968
Joe Medwick , Kiki Cuyler , Goose Goslin
1969
Stan Musial, Roy Campanella , Stan Coveleski , , Waite Hoyt,
1970
Lou Boudreau , Earle Combs , Jesse Haines,
1971
Dave Bancroft , Jake Beckley , Chick Hafey , Harry Hooper , Joe Kelley , Rube Marquard , Satchel Paige
1972
Sandy Koufax , Yogi Berra ,Early Wynn, Lefty Gomez , Ross Youngs , Josh Gibson , Buck Leonard
1973
Warren Spahn , George Kelly , Mickey Welch , Monte Irvin , Roberto Clemente
1974
Mickey Mantle , Whitey Ford , Jim Bottomley , Sam Thompson , Cool Papa Bell
1975
Ralph Kiner , Earl Averill , Bucky Harris , Billy Herman , Judy Johnson
1976
Robin Roberts, Bob Lemon , Roger Connor , Freddy Lindstrom , Oscar Charleston
1977
Ernie Banks ,Amos Rusie , Joe Sewell , Al Lopez , Martin Dihigo , Pop Lloyd
1978
Eddie Mathews, Addie Joss
1979
Willie Mays , Hack Wilson
1980
Al Kaline, Duke Snider, Chuck Klein
1981
Bob Gibson, Johnny Mize , Rube Foster
1982
Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Travis Jackson
1983
Brooks Robinson, Juan Marichal, George Kell
1984
Luis Aparicio, Harmon Killebrew, Don Drysdale, Rick Ferrell , Pee Wee Reese
1985
Hoyt Wilhelm, Lou Brock, Enos Slaughter , Arky Vaughan
1986
Willie McCovey, Bobby Doerr, Ernie Lombardi
1987
Billy Williams, Catfish Hunter, Ray Dandridge
1988
Willie Stargell
1989
Johnny Bench, Carl Yastrzemski, Red Schoendienst
1990
Jim Palmer , Joe Morgan
1991
Rod Carew, Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins , Tony Lazzeri
1992
Tom Seaver, Rollie Fingers, Hal Newhouser
1993
Reggie Jackson
1994
Steve Carlton, Leo Durocher , Phil Rizzuto
1995
Mike Schmidt, Leon Day , Vic Willis , Richie Ashburn
1996
Jim Bunning, Bill Foster , Ned Hanlon
1997
Phil Niekro, Nellie Fox, Willie Wells
1998
Don Sutton, George Davis , Larry Doby , Joe Rogan
1999
Orlando Cepeda, Joe Williams
2000
Tony Perez, Bid McPhee , Turkey Stearnes
2001
Bill Mazeroski , Hilton Smith
2006
Ray Brown, Willard Brown, Andy Cooper, Biz Mackey, Mule Suttles, Cristobal Torriente, Jud Wilson, Frank Grant, Pete Hill, Jose Mendez Louis Santop, Ben Taylor, Sol White
   53. Rick A. Posted: March 30, 2007 at 12:43 AM (#2320583)
yest,

You're missing Bruce Sutter on that list.
   54. Paul Wendt Posted: March 30, 2007 at 01:30 AM (#2320602)
Thanks, DanG and jimd.
   55. Paul Wendt Posted: March 30, 2007 at 06:20 PM (#2320957)
Sympathy for Joe Morgan the Red?
Between his retirement and the revision of Veterans elections in his favor, beside his own election in 1990 and Rod Carew's in 1991, he saw 2Bmen Doerr, Schoendienst, Lazzeri, Fox, McPhee, and Mazeroski enrolled. When he retired there were eight 2B and eight 3B in the Hall. By 2001 the numbers were 16 and 10 (Dandridge & Schmidt).

(Maybe I have erred. I have no 2Bman from the Negro Leagues here.)

--
derived from jimd #50
HOM as of 1996, not HOF as of 2007, in rough chron order
20th century MLB (21)

Sheckard, Magee
JJackson, Groh

FERRELL, Hack, Gordon
Keller
Minoso, PIERCE, Boyer
Torre, Santo, Allen, Freehan, Rose, JWynn
Simmons, Grich, DaEvans, Hernandez
   56. Howie Menckel Posted: April 07, 2007 at 02:24 PM (#2328267)
DanG: I also have it at 41 HOM/not HOF, along with 59 HOF/not HOM (that's counting all electees to HOF)

These are the 27 fellows who are in the HOF, but didn't even get a point in this Hall of Merit voting:

Bender, Chief
Bottomley, Jim
Chesbro, Jack
Combs, Earle
Cooper, Andy
Dandridge, Ray
Day, Leon
Evers, Johnny
Ferrell, Rick
Hafey, Chick
Haines, Jesse
Hooper, Harry
Hoyt, Waite
Hunter, Catfish
Jackson, Travis
Johnson, Judy
Kelly, George
Lindstrom, Freddie
Manush, Heinie
Marquard, Rube
McCarthy, Tommy
Pennock, Herb
Schalk, Ray
Schoendienst, Red
Tinker, Joe
Waner, Lloyd
Youngs, Ross
   57. Howie Menckel Posted: April 07, 2007 at 02:26 PM (#2328268)
Top Hall of Fame candidates for the Hall of Merit, 1996 rank in parentheses: Edd Roush (4th), Nellie Fox (5th), Jake Beckley (6th), Rollie Fingers (8th), Tony Perez (9th), Hugh Duffy (16th), Roger Bresnahan (17th), Burleigh Grimes (21st), Dizzy Dean (23rd), Mickey Welch (25th), John McGraw (26th), Phil Rizzuto (32nd), Vic Willis (33rd), Orlando Cepeda (35th), Lou Brock (37th), Dave Bancroft (40).

Top non-Hall of Fame candidates for the Hall of Merit, with 1996 HOM voting rank in parentheses: Pete Browning (7th), Dick Redding (10th), Charley Jones (11th), Bucky Walters (12th), Bob Johnson (13th), Gavvy Cravath (14th), Alejandro Oms (15th), George Van Haltren (18th), Graig Nettles (19th), Tommy Leach (20th), Rusty Staub (22nd), Luis Tiant (24th), Norm Cash (27th), Reggie Smith (28th), Larry Doyle (29th), Elston Howard (30th), Bob Elliott (31st), Bobby Bonds (34th), Dave Concepcion (36th), Ken Singleton (38th), Tommy Bridges (39th).
   58. Paul Wendt Posted: April 07, 2007 at 10:33 PM (#2328736)
Among the 27 there are two whom I don't recall seeing/hearing named one of the weakest HOF selections: Leon Day, Ray Schalk. (Ray Dandridge and Judy Johnson, only in this forum. Andy Cooper, I don't recall seeing/hearing anything at all until this forum, and the special election of 2005/2006. Day, maybe I missed it in this forum.)

If Tinker & Evers will finish 101st & 102nd one of these fortnights, it will be a good list. Given the discussion here about 80 years ago, I expected that Tinker would be on some ballots. Some believe that he was a "historically great" shortstop, as we say. As for maybe Dandridge, Schalk and Schoendienst on that list.

I don't know that he deserves a 101st place finish some fortnight, but I know Tinker deserves a comment on his own thread --from before the days of introductory references in article #1 by John Murphy.
   59. yest Posted: April 08, 2007 at 03:26 AM (#2328898)
You're missing Bruce Sutter on that list.
thanks
   60. Howie Menckel Posted: April 08, 2007 at 01:49 PM (#2328963)
Tinker and Evers each got a few votes for a while, iirc. Schalk had one supporter, I believe. Not sure on Day.
   61. Paul Wendt Posted: April 08, 2007 at 05:31 PM (#2329081)
yest has supported Ray Schalk, i believe
And he may be on some PHOM but below ballot lists

Oops, I misread #56 as no votes for this (unique) Hall of Merit rather than no votes in this 1996 election.

Leon Day and Hilton Smith (two pitchers, two of the last Negro Leagues players elected by the old Veterans Cmte) are almost unmentioned here. For many participants, I suppose, they are clearly outside the consideration set "at rough MLE" if not "at first glance". In 1995-2001, the special ballot years, there was some grumbling that the old Veterans were considering only Negro Leaguers young enough (albeit deceased) that Buck O'N played with them. "Everyone" believed there were greater players, not yet honored, one or two ballplaying generations older.
   62. Howie Menckel Posted: April 08, 2007 at 05:54 PM (#2329118)
right, I meant to write "in this year's" HOM voting, meaning the latest election....
   63. sunnyday2 Posted: April 08, 2007 at 11:36 PM (#2329385)
Day and Smith were discussed. Both had their career records posted and at least Smith had MLEs computed. Both were torpedoed by mediocre records. Day in particular. Smith at least had a (very) short peak of note. Nothing about Day stood out in any way, as I recall. I think most would agree that guys like Andy Cooper and Bill Byrd and Leroy Matlock have a vastly better case to be made.

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